The Adam and Dr. Drew Show - Classic #168: Brian Koppelman Returns Pt. 1

Episode Date: September 23, 2025

August 13, 2014: Brian Koppelman returns to the show to talk about his process of becoming a screenwriter. Adam and Dr. Drew also take listener calls.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Time for episode 168, a throwback. Brian Koppelman Returns. This is from August 13, 2014. Brian returns the show, talks about the process of becoming a screenwriter. And, of course, we take some more listener calls. Recorded live at Corolla One Studios with Adam Carolla and board-certified physician and addiction medicine specialist, Dr. Drew Pinsky. You're listening to The Adam and Dr. Drew Show.

Yeah, get it on. Got to get it on. No choice. Get it on. Mandate, get it on. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you so much for bookmarking us at Amazon and keeping the fight going against the patent trolls. Brian Coppulman is back with us. We loved him so much last week when he was in. We invited him back once again. Also, we had to sort of revisit the invitation and formally bring him into the studio on your behalf. So there's not a big fight when he comes in. The fact that you sent the Newman car to get me this time.

That's right. Really makes me feel welcome. And we had to say, your usual table, Mr. Coppelman, and Adam greeted you when you came in. It was very different than last time. Very different. So Brian is a screenwriter. Brian does a podcast. Brian's podcast, The Moment with Brian Copplin is available on Grantland and iTunes.

And they have people like Seth MacFarland, Doug Allen, and Mario Battali, Colin Quinn. Seth Myers. Oh, what I say, Seth. You need Seth. McFarland. You're right. I've got to get them on there. I see this, Seth, and then the M. and I just go right to McFarland.

Sorry, Seth Monarch. How do you get to, I'm always interested in anybody who's defied the odds and being a screenwriter and getting paid to do it. And that's the other thing that's bothering, bothers Drew a lot. What's that? Other people announce they're in their fifth year of junior college, but they're going to be surgeons. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. This, the idea that everyone can call themselves a screenwriter, but which basically throws a sack of flour in your accomplishment because you are a screenwriter, meaning I can't stop someone from writing a screenplay, but getting it sold at that level is another is a completely different thing.

But how do you go from doing A&R for Elektra Records in the 90s? late 80s, early 90s to writing a screenplay and selling it. Well, my best friend and I, David Levine, he's my best friend my whole life, like my brother, we had like long wanted to do it. I mean, I got to one of these points in my life where I was, I just had my first kid. I was kind of unhappy doing what I was doing. And I knew I had to do this, but I was a blocked. I couldn't write, you know, so I could not do it. And finally, the pain of not doing it got so great. And I went to my best friend, Dave, and I said, let's fucking do this finally. He'd been right.

He'd written a novel that then got published. And I said, like, let's figure out how to do this. And I'd walked into a poker club in the middle of the night, lost money, and realized that's a movie. Right. Hence, rounders. But the fun part is, we were rejected by every agency in Hollywood. I mean, every single agency said the script would never sell and that it was terrible. And the moment that it sold, of course, they all wanted to sign us.

And I immediately learned an incredible lesson about expert opinion. at that point, and who to trust. The one thing I say is, to me, someone can call themselves, we were having this conversation last time. Let me stop you at one point here, just in our sort of keys to success, which is, it's a very important thing for people, I think, to realize. Brian knew he wanted to write, he wanted to write screenplays, he had some ideas, maybe he had some ability, but didn't physically have the tools to do it, just like when I wrote

the hammer. I had an idea. I wanted to write a screenplay. I didn't have the tools to do it. So I called Kevin Hinch because I knew he had the tools. Literally, like you want to work on a car, but you don't have a garage and you don't have any tools. Find a guy who has the tools. Call him. Humble yourself a little bit. You're going to share a little spotlight with him and get it done. Yeah, I call my, Dave, and I said, listen, let's do this thing. And he said to me, I told him the idea. He said, and I'd always was someone who could, I knew I could write, I'd got to law school at night. I knew I could put words on a page, but I could never finish. And he said, you have to commit before you go to work every day. We meet every morning at 8 a.m. no matter what, we don't

skip a fucking day until we write this thing. Said the same with Hanshick's effort was noon, but yes. Right. And it was on Saturdays too. Every other Saturday, that's right, at noon. We met. Not during football. See, obviously, during college ball. You had a big life when you started doing that. But we We met every single morning. Dave was bartending. He would finish bartending. And I would get up early before I would go to my record business job. And I was up late at night going to see bands for work. Sure. And in recording studios. And we never missed a day. You know, 8.8. No matter what happened. Doesn't matter. You're sick. You have a thing. 8 a.m. every morning. Every night. And we worked 8 a.m. every day. To when we wrote fade out and had a draft four and a half months. All right. Not missing a day, though. But let me see. say this as well, and this is the thing that, again, I try to tell people all the time as it pertains to starting a small business, which writing a screenplay is like starting a small business. It's all sort of just putting in the work, putting in the hours. This notion that,

you know, hey, these successful guys, they can go down to Santropain and hang out on a yacht, yes, they can. Because they have all those days behind them. They don't talk about that. They just talk about the part where, oh, this business is too big to fail and this guy's too rich to never get laid and all this kind of shit. But the point is, is not at the beginning, not at the beginning. I've had this conversation with my wife who started a small business. I was like, you weren't hungry enough. You didn't want it enough.

And she's like, we showed up. I said, you didn't put in Saturdays. People write it off. We did a couple. Not a couple. For the first two years, 60 hour. weeks every Saturday, lunch at your desk, then you franchise, then you have success, then you kick back, or you can go from a 65-hour work week to a 35-hour work week, but it's the

beginning part that everyone, and nobody wants to do that part, and no one wants to talk about that part. When people do, it's like when people hear those stories, they hear it in a romantic way, and they don't understand is that it was brutal. So they hear it in this romantic way. Like Mario Batali, who was, as you said, on my thing. He's one of my people I want to hear about. I love him.

We spend a good amount of time together. He's a really interesting guy. He's a brilliant person. But Mario, at a certain point, when you hear it, it sounds great. He went to Italy to work and to stage at restaurants. And you think, oh, the guy went to Italy. He went to Italy, and he lived with other dudes up in some crappy, top floor, you know, thing with no heat or air, he worked for free for 16 hours a day.

And 16 hours a day, you don't start at where you're the guy in the white apron walking out and presenting the beautiful bowl of pasta. No. You start in the backs, cutting onions. Right. And you do that. So I understand very well how the game works. Two years of that.

Now you pick, you hear it, you go, well, of course, he went to Italy for two years. I know. Yeah. We never stop with the, we never stop with the luck and the who you know and all that stuff. Let me say this, because you brought up a good point, which is the sort of romanticizing of the process. And here's what I try to explain to people all the time. And it doesn't exist in our field, and it doesn't exist in being a chef and the endeavors we speak about. They always act, and it's an interesting psychological dynamic.

We've got into it before, but I don't think it's properly addressed as far as society and success goes. They act like, well, the same people that say it's who you know or it's timing or right place or right time. They act as if you knew it was going to work out before you started, which is a completely different scenario. Hold on. It's 100% different scenario than the fact. The fact, which is if somebody said, look, you got to work four and a half months. Every day, it came and say, but at the end, you're going to get millions of dollars and you're going to get a bunch of Edward Norton's going to star in your movie and Matt Damon or whoever. I can't remember who else.

That's exactly right. Then everyone would do it and never miss a day. But now we say you can work every day for four and a half months and it may be a big fat goose egg. I'll tell you. Sorry, Drew. Or my point was going to be, or it may never end. Those 16 hour days may go indefinitely. No, no.

You may, you don't know that that's nothing ever working out. But what I'm saying is... No, but you don't know that it's going to... You have to throw yourself into it. You don't know. But I'm saying if you say to anybody, look, you can go to Italy, you can stay in a loft with a bunch of slabs with no heat, no air, and you can bust your ass for two years. But when you come back, let me tell you, let me show you your portfolio. Books.

QVC selling spatulas and kiss the cook aprons and special sauces. Well, anybody would look at that and go. Oh, fuck, yeah. I'll go sweat it out in Italy for two years. But now we're saying, go sweat it out in two years. And then when you come back, you may not be able to find a job. Well, now we've got to separate the men from the boys. Because people don't understand sometimes that the gain from that experience.

It's what you said about writing your first thing. It's what you were making your documentary. You said that last week that you are a changed person at the end, regardless in your one step, I believe, you are closer to the next time being able to accomplish something. But you're right. People don't, sometimes, they're so scared. We're such a fear-based culture, and maybe you think there's a laziness component. But to me, it's a fear of if I stick my neck out there and I try and fail, then I'm a failure and a loser.

I think that scares people. Gary, tell me who is in rounders, by the way. You were right, I said. You were right. No, I know. I named two people. There were a number of other people. Well, there, John Malkovich.

You've heard of him? on Tatura. Okay, those are other actors. I'm just trying to brag for Brian over here. That's pretty good. Your first screenplay with Malkovich is the third guy. But I mean, just recently, I'll tell you something. Like, the way that it happens when you end up in...

Gretchen Mullen, remember her? Yeah, Malcovich. But when you end up doing even what I do... Martin Lando. Oh, he's so good, Martin Lando. Well, you're bringing up... I don't think people have the fear of success, like we throw it around. I think they...

We're very into what's in it for me right now. And I need. I love her. And I need some answers now. And like I said, swim to the other side of this lake and there'll be a briefcase with $500,000 in it. Everyone jumps into the lake. Swim to the other side of the lake and there's probably not going to be anything there. Now that stops a lot of people.

There's a lot of questions. Should I get in the lake? And I go, get in the lake. It's good exercise. You get a lot of experience just being able to survive and go through the water. And they go, hold on. What's on the other side again? And you go, there may be something.

There's probably going to be nothing. Well, hold on. Let's talk this out. That's the problem now. You know, sometimes pays the price for that a lot, though, is people who are already successful. And it's sometimes what keeps them at a certain level of success, which is they get to a level of success, and they don't want to take the risk of going somewhere else. They don't want to push it further.

Guys who were doctors who could have spoken, who are to, somehow, weren't willing to try to put in that time, to go speak in crappy, to become... Well, there's another piece that is almost ineffable, and people never talk about, which is sort of stamina slash manicness. Because I noticed something in myself. You know, I was sick for a while, and during that period, I was sick, I noticed I didn't get that much done. And I wasn't aware I wasn't pushing forward, but when I sort of came to again, I was like,

oh, it's time to get going again. Right. And you, that's a, those are brain states. You can't really do much about that, you know? Yeah, no, it gave me, it gave me an empathy for people that you can change your brain. Yeah, but you really, you're not even aware you're in a different energy, energetic state, you know. Well, I'll tell you how you figure out where it is. Go look at your fucking car.

No, but Adam, I literally, I couldn't, I couldn't, I couldn't muster the energy to do those things. You had the experience of mustering the energy, and now you were physically ill. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you knew what was going on. Not at the time. It was when I came out. Out of it, I looked back and went, oh, I was not my usual set up there. But you gained so much by trying, you know, when I started, when I started this podcast, I was really, I was terrified.

Part of me was really scared because it was going to go on Grantland, which, and I knew it would go on the Grantland Pop Culture feed. There'd be an audience right away. Right. I'd been on a couple of podcasts and knew that I knew how to, I knew I could communicate. but I will tell you that doing it and then preparing because, and all the muscles I built just doing this, it helped me so much because I, Seth Myers was my first guest. Wow. And I was so, like you were with that radio show, I was so sort of like nervous and focused

and really thought it was possible. I wouldn't know how to interview. Like what if I didn't? It was already announced people were talking. What if I couldn't do it? And I'll tell you, I could feel how easy it would have been. to say, and this was true, you know, well, I have a TV show now. I got to do for showtime. I have a thing to bail on it. But some part of me had, for years, wanted to do it. And every time you exercise that muscle, I'm really scared of this, there's a high degree of possibility of failure.

And you fucking press through and do the thing. I think the rewards just internally are like enormous. Absolutely. I agree. And that experience of having that experience cannot be replicated. And I wish you could bequeath it to somebody because everybody talks about knowledge and shares knowledge, but you can't share experience. The thing that we talk about, but I find very interesting is we all know that we all know that. We all, none of us have improved intellectually or from an IQ standpoint. It's quite the opposite. Our brains are atrophying as we speak.

I just felt mine drop down a notch. Like the Grinch's heart, mine went in the other direction. It shrink a little bit. It shrink. It's in its flaccid state. But the point is, is through repetition and through experience and through diversity. I remember I did dancing with the stars. did it only because it scared the shit out of me.

Everybody said, oh, how much do they, how much they pay for that show? My answer is, I have no fucking idea. I never asked. And they went, well, but are we talking about 50 grand? We're talking about 250 grand. I said, wasn't, I was making plenty of money doing syndicated morning radio. The discussion never happened. I literally, and Drew, you'll back me up.

When I talk about money, I don't exaggerate in any. form. I never asked my agent. I didn't ask anything. I just remember being fearful. And I mean a kind of fearful that I have walked out on stage in front of thousands and thousands of people and done live TV shows and hosted award shows that were live at the MGM and raced Paul Newman's race cars and done everything up all of a sudden I was scared shitless for that moment. And I remember thinking myself, oh boy, let's not do this, because you're going to make an ass of yourself. That's great. And if there was a show that was called talking about Paul Newman's race cars and complaining

with the stars, or, you know, we all have that thing where it's like, I literally have a fantasy where they go, it's home remodeling with the stars. And now Adam is going to go up against Pend Gillette and Christy Yamaguchi, whoever the hell it was. but we're going to be doing a barn raising this time. And I'd be thinking, I'm going to kick their ass because I know exactly how to work all those tools and I got this experience. But this ain't that.

This is dancing. This is the thing I won't even do drunk at a wedding. And I remember thinking, okay, this is horrifying. First thought. Second thought is, oh, Jesus, you're wrestling with it. Now you're scared. Why aren't you doing it? Well, let's be honest.

You start working in schedule. You're talking about one side of your brain is going, well, come on. Now you're doing morning. radio. Now, that's a pretty busy schedule. And you've got to get it pretty early in the morning, and you're working on your necks, this, that, and the other. And then there's another part of me going, oh, come on, you're scared. You're scared. You're trying to talk yourself out of it, but you're scared. And then I started listening to the part that was scared. And I said,

so what are we going to be doing? Well, you're going to be doing in front of 20 million people something that you're horrible at. And I remember going, now you have to do it. Because now we've We've, I've now, I have now been honest enough with myself to admit that all the talk about the schedule and how many hours it takes to practice and your morning show and look, you work full time. All these other guys are out of work actors. How do you differentiate that from the actual fear? I felt the fear in me. The first thing I felt, I was, my cell phone rang, I was walking out of KLSX, I was in the parking structure. I remember exactly where I was and I don't have a good memory.

we've established that on our previous show with Brian. I got that phone call and it was my agent and, you know, I thought he was going to be pitching me some commercial or whatever he normally does and he said I got a call from people to dance with the stars and I felt a tingling

like an electricity. You know that feeling when they go like Johnny Whitaker wants to meet you after school in the parking lot. That moment of truth like what? Johnny Whitaker wants to meet me. Chip Randall. Chip Randall. Yeah, we, yeah, Butch doesn't matter what his last name is.

I did not want to meet Chiff Randall wants to meet you. But that little shiver, remember that little shiver from junior high? The one after you pee? That, that came later. But, you know, that little shiver. And so I got the little shiver. And then I went, yeah, they want you to compete on dancing with the stars. And I remember thinking like, oh, shit.

And I remember, okay, now I can say, oh, that's lame. I don't want to do that. come on, that's where washed up, whatever. But I remember being scared. That was the whole reason. And I could have given a thousand and one reasons, but I remember just being scared, and I said to him, well, I got to go. I got to do it. I said, I have to think about this because I was scared shitless.

I couldn't dive off that cliff at that moment. I hung up and I thought, okay, what are we really talking about here? What are your concerns? And I realize, I'm just scared. I'm just scared. That's the only reason I don't want to do it. And then I said, I will do it because I'm scared, because the next time something comes up where I go, you're out of your element. I will not feel out of my element because I knew what it's like to walk out and suck.

People always give you, I'm sure you guys have this way more than I don't want to go speak somewhere. Or if I do a Q&A on Twitter, which I do time to time about screenwriting, I'm at Brian Koppelman at Twitter. And I'll do like these Q&A's about stuff. And the number one question people ask is, how do I get an agent, right? How do I get an agent? How do I get it? and always say, well, you've got to do the work first. You've got to write a script, and then you've got to write another one,

and then you've got to market it online. And inevitably people will go, but what if it doesn't work? But what if is so maddening to hear. And Ryan and I, Ryan, who's your buddy, who I think was on your show last week, recently. Actually, we'll be on, he'll be coming up. Ryan Holiday. He's Stowe writes about being stoic in these situations, and he and I were both on Twitter,

and each wrote a thing on our blogs about how to get an agent. And the answer, of course, is do an incredible amount of hard work with absolutely no guarantee it's going to happen, take that risk again, and do it until they come looking for you. You can't actually go get an agent. An agent has to come and say, I select you. But you can put yourself in their sights, and people always say, yeah, yeah, yeah. But what if I get, and you just want to go, what if I don't know anybody they'll say, or what if they won't return my call?

And you go, you're living in a fantasy, dream world of failure. I always say this, and people go like, how do you, what do you tribute your success in podcasting to? I go, well, I have these magical stones and I love them. And I love them. And every morning, I rub my magic stones. And it's like, no, stop it. Drew, what was my answer every time when everyone want to know about the success of Lovelin? He would say, well, I'm good and Drew's good and we work hard.

And they go, yeah, but, but the format, what about the format? What about the format? And what would I say? He'd say, it could be anything. We could be talking about. Because you're engaged in, and we were always talking. My son and I always talk about it. But here's the thing, and I'm sorry for cutting you off.

I don't want to sound like a pompous ass. But why would we mislead people? You know what I mean? Like when it comes to, look, why are you good at a second language? Oh, I just got lucky. You know, I'm blessed. No, I study really hard. Why are you good at engineering?

Well, you know, it's who you know. My dad was an engineer. I guess I just got lucky. Why? Why in show business can't we own it? I would tell people all the fucking time, because they were like, what is the magical ingredient to this wild format that you guys?

And I'd go, me and a little bit of Drew. But us, anyone else could host a show, and it would suck, or we could host a show about something else, and it would be good. Let's go ahead and own it. right why not send the message to people why you had to say it because even the management where you work didn't understand your contribution no they did not it begs it begs retelling the story about junior junior junior junior junior junior junior junior junior junior junior junior producer

Lauren that is a that is a funny funny story um it's a great story nobody nobody did yes people didn't understand what I did now you can tell it yes there's a couple things In terms of understanding what you do, I always tell these guys, the peons back here, I tell them, look, whatever you feel in your own heart, your worth is, or your ability is, or your God-given talent is, doesn't mean shit if the guy who's hiring you doesn't know any of it. So no matter how great you think your screenplay is, you need an agent to think it's great. You may know in your heart, it's Dr. Javago. But if the guy behind the mahogany desk doesn't think it's shit, you better work on that. Before you tell the story, though, in my heart, I've got to say, Stamps.com, this is something that I know isn't shit. Technology makes things easier now, so no more post office.

Stamps.com post office right at your desk, baby. Don't need to be a tech expert. Just use your own computer printer to buy and print official U.S. postage for any letter, package, or class of mail. Of course, they will send you that digital scale to automatically calculate the exact. exact postage. They just hand it off to the mailman. Of course, we have a special offer. Enter promo code ADS for a no-risk trial. It's a $110 bonus offer, including a digital scale and up to $55 in pre-postage. Again, I choke on this every time. Why would someone not do this? It's an emotional topic. Go to stamps.com because it's in my heart. I know it's not shit.

Go to stamps.com. Before you do anything else, click the microphone at the top of the homepage, type in ADS. That is stamps.com. Promocode ADS. All right, so yes, I rarely set myself up for this, but at a certain point, when people, and look, we had a kid named Chris who had a problem. Some kind of disability. A disability. And once in a while, when we put him on the microphone, and I'd say, what are you looking to do? Behind the scenes, you want to produce, you want to write, you want to create, or do you want to be talent? he'd go talk talk and so you want to be a host yeah what you said it's fine and i started saying i started saying to

him uh stop stop it look you work as a producer get behind the scenes and of course drew jumped in ho ho you can do anything he wants and we're not helping him by doing that i was not harsh with him i was realistic with him. I said, look, you're not talent. You don't have the right voice. You don't, you're not confident. You don't have anything to say. Why do you want to get, why do you want a microphone so you can hold it and then do what? Yeah. Into it. So I told Chris straight out step away from the mic. And by the way, tough love, but get into something that may make you some money in the future. By the way, people said that to Howard Stern and he wanted it badly enough. Yes. Yes. He then went, fuck you. I don't do it. I don't think Chris.

wanted it. I factored that in, badly enough, but we asked at a certain point, and I still don't remember the part of the story of how it came up. With Lauren? Yes, junior producer. I remember where she was standing. She was standing right to my left. It was during a commercial, and I think it was on the heels of you talking to Chris, where you just said, like, Lauren, you've been working under the, under the glow of a genius for a while here. What have you learned? It's basking in the glow of greatness. I've never asked it before, but I said. But you did, you did. You did. You were sort of being a little bit glib. I said, what have you learned from working with me? And she said, and you correct me. Absolutely straight face. Well, she thought about it. And she said,

you don't have to be educated. You can show up whenever you want. Wow. It's who you know. You got to know somebody. They can never fire you, which is a weird thing because people get firing radio all the time. But you seem to never get fired. And also suggests that if it was up to her, I'd be fired. I'd be fired. I didn't get fired because I was adding five markets on to a syndicated show every other week. So they don't fire those guys who are number one everywhere. That's awesome.

She said, they can't fire you. You get to treat anyone, however you want to treat them. And I can't, I remember the who you know, no education. Oh, no preparation. No prep. And those were her five main beats. The big bucks, too. They've always said, you make big bucks.

Not understanding a lifetime of prep, by the way. Yeah. Oh, of course. I, listen, I tell my wife all the time when she does the, why do you get paid this and that, or how come you whatever? I said, because when I was 26, while everyone was getting laid, I was taking groundlings classes, and I didn't have enough money for insurance for my beat up fucking pickup truck. That's what I'm getting paid for. I'm not getting paid all this money to go do this corporate gig in San Diego. I'm getting paid for all the freebies I did and all the money I paid going through the groundlings, going through Acme, so and so forth.

Now I'm getting paid. Like Drew didn't get paid to go to medical school. He paid to go to medical school like I paid to go the groundlings. Now you get paid. It's a weird concept. It doesn't seem that far stretch to understand. But Lauren, that's all she gleaned. Those were her takeaways from working with me.

I think along the road to her telling those. those pearls. You said, we asked if you were kidding. Really? And she's like, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and that kept going. She did not have one, oh, God, given ability, or something like that. There were five super insulting ones.

By the way, she was an underling who worked for me. Yeah, of course. There were five insulting ones that basically range from being stupid to being lazy to who you knew to I would fire you if I had a chance. You can't get fired. On your lucky. And that was the end of it. That was the end? There were no more.

There were just those five. Yeah. All right. And no, like, no giggling, no consternation, no back. Straight answer. I'm sure she's doing quite well for herself right now. All right. Can I hear up for a quick thing?

Just one quick thing, Brian. I know he has to get going here, but I really like the illusionist. I really thought it was a great thought. Oh, thank you so much. Paul Giamada. It's sort of in the beginning of his career. Paul Jammadi is incredible. No, he had already done sideways, but he is... But he was really just was on the launching cast.

He and Edward Norton are incredible in that movie. That one was... Yeah, that's a story for another time, but we produced that movie, and we weren't really producers. I know he produced a couple movies. We found a story. That's a great story for you. We can talk about another time about sort of like how you take on the mantle of doing different things related to all the stuff we're talking about. Can I just say, you're both invited any time on my podcast.

I'm going to do that. I'm in. All right, good. I'm going to... Now, you guys heard that, so when I email. I'll make sure not to tell them. It's on tape. Are you downtown ESPN?

It's the table center? Next time you're in New York, to when you're in New York, because that's where I live. Are you? I live in New York. Back and forth then? Okay. Yeah, I come out here. I live in New York.

I come out here a lot. And I got to say, it's a thrill to do this twice with you guys. Thank you. Brian Coppelman. It's a reason we had you twice. With Brian Copelman. We'll take a quick break. We'll be right back after this.

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