THE ADAM BUXTON PODCAST - EP.244 - LOUIS THEROUX & RICHARD DAWSON LIVE

Episode Date: April 27, 2025

Adam talks with British journalist (and old friend) Louis Theroux about AI, awkward interviews, alopecia, and arguing with your partner. There's also live music from Newcastle's Richard Dawson.Conversation recorded in front of a live audience at the Eventim Apollo, Hammersmith, London, on June 9th, 2024Thanks to Séamus Murphy-Mitchell for production support and conversation editing and to Becca Bryers for additional audio mixing.Podcast illustration by Helen Green RICHARD DAWSON 2025 TOURPRE-ORDER 'I LOVE YOU, BYEEE' by Adam Buxton - 2025PICS AND LINKS (on Adam's website) Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey how you doing, Podcats? It's Adam Buxton here. What the hell's going on? There's no intro jingles, Buckles. Have you lost your mind? Well it's just that this week for podcast number 244 I've got another live episode for you and I'll be singing the intro jingle on stage in front of thousands of people in a minute or two. But before then, how are you doing? I hope you're very well. I'm doing fine. Finished recording the studio parts of my audiobook this week. Saw Joe on Thursday. He came in and we had a slightly hysterical encounter with him

going through bits of my book and me just laughing mainly. Although there were a couple of poignant moments there as well. That's going to be one of the bonus features on the audiobook version of I Love You Bye my book which comes out next month. You can pre-order it in the description. I'm sorry that I keep banging on about it but I hope you'll understand. I can't quite believe that it's finished and I'm keen for you to check it out. Anyway that's all nearly done. My best dog friend Rosie is not with me today. She's gone for a walk with one of the

boys. She's doing very well looking even more beautiful this week now her coat is beginning to grow out looking very silky and youthful. It is a lovely evening out here in the Norfolk countryside towards the end of April. The sun is going down it's quite cool got the North Face coat on. Anyway, look, let me tell you about this live episode. This one features a conversation between myself and my old friend and friend of the podcast, Louis Theroux. There's also a wonderful musical performance and a duet, uh-oh, with British musician and another former podcast guest Richard Dawson. This

was recorded in June of last year 2024 as part of my live podcast tour and as I said before I won't be putting out every live episode that we did last year for various reasons. Some of them ended up being too visual to work as audio only. A couple of them had sound problems. Some of them we couldn't clear the music. We only just cleared Richard Dawson a couple of days ago. But I think that you're going to enjoy these bits from the show that we recorded with Louis and Richard at the Eventim Apollo in Hammersmith, West London. Over 3,500 people were there that night. That's the biggest live show I've ever done.

Sold out show. Even though the audience that night didn't know who the guests were gonna be. As with all the live podcast shows I did last year, we had a big screen on stage and I was showing bits and pieces of video stuff throughout from my laptop. At the beginning of the shows I would do some very funny and topical material

about artificial intelligence, which of course has continued to evolve at a dizzying pace in the intervening months. You know, the multimodal models like GPT-5 and Gemini 2 have achieved human-like reasoning, AI agents have gained autonomy in complex tasks, open weight models like Lama 3 have closed the gap with closed source AI, and robotics saw breakthroughs in real world generalisation via embodied AI. But I did use AI to get that information, so it's possible that it's just learned how to exaggerate and make itself look cooler than it really is. But last June I was mainly using AI to generate amusingly wonky images of my

guests and their best-known work as part of their introductions. If you click on related links in the description of today's podcast you'll find a few of those images on my website along with photos from the day and the play as well the transcript of the play that Louis and I performed on stage seconds after it was generated live by chat GPT and it was genuinely live and the audience could see the text appearing as it was generated and they could see it as we scrolled down and read along so anyway it might be interesting for you to look at the actual text and see the stage

directions that the audience were laughing at as we performed, if you'd like. I will be back for a very short bit of waffle just after halfway through the podcast to introduce the final section of my conversation with Louis, but right now let's time travel back to the 9th of June 2024, a simpler time, 8 p.m. to be specific, and I've just arrived on stage. Here we go. It's very nice to see you, thank you so much for coming along to the Hammersmith. In my mind it's still the Hammersmith Odeon. It's still 1973, David has just shuffled off the stage, having broken up the spiders without the spiders realising they were about to be broken up.

And it's a different time. No, it's not. It's 2024 and you are watching a live podcast because you've run out of options. But I'm going to do my best to make you not regret that decision so I'm gonna sing the intro theme and this is a polka arrangement that I've done specially for you and if you do know the words I would appreciate you joining in I added one more podcast to the giant podcast bin Now you have plucked that podcast out and started listening I took my microphone and found some human folk

Then I recorded all the noises while we spoke My name is Adam Buxton, I'm a man I want you to enjoy this, that's the plan Hey, good job! Right, now this is exciting! You don't know who my guest is going to be tonight, so this might scramble a few heads, because this is someone that perhaps you're not expecting. My guest tonight is a face that will be familiar to you all.

It's someone whose insights into human nature are always fascinating and, I dare say, increasingly relevant in divided times. Please welcome the leader of the Reform Party, Nigel Farage. That's not respectful to Nigel. I'm sorry, Nigel. But I don't know if they're gonna be sufficiently respectful. So you might have to fuck off. And instead, I would like you guys to welcome my backup guest, who is Luthorun! One, two, one, two. I would have quite liked to have seen Nigel Farage.

I would have been curious to see what he came out with. But we'll try and be every bit as witty and full of bonhomie as Nigel. How are you doing, Lou? Yeah, pretty good. Sunday night. Nice to be here. My first time here on stage. I've been here as a paying guest many times, so let's see how it works the other way around. How do you feel about the old AI situation?

You know, I feel like I should be really worried about it, and I think I'm just too stupid To know how to worry sufficiently But also like machines have always been better than humans. Do you know what I mean? I don't mean like morally You know, but you know, they've always they've always been faster and strong I mean to say always since the Industrial Revolution not to get all historical about it, I went to Oxford. I don't like to make a big thing out of it. But you know, they're photos. They're like, there's not going to be any painting anymore because we've got photos now.

We don't need you. And they find a workaround. We'll do smudgy paintings. We'll call it impressionism. And actually, and as long as, my thing is that as long as you feel like, you know, I work in nonfiction, so maybe I would say this, but there's something very special about connecting to something that you know is made by a real person. There's people who pay more money. It's like when you're a kid, you're like, but that plate's shit. And you turn it over and it says hand-painted. And then like, oh, that's why you pay more for it. Yeah, it's shit, but someone actually went to the trouble of doing a human in a little cottage somewhere exactly

That's why it cost fifty pounds and it so so the the idea of humans It's like if you do so it's about policing the boundaries between fiction and nonfiction Is the way I look at it if you told me the analogy I was thinking about it's like if you told me For the last 20 years my wife had been a robot and I never realized it I would feel cheated do you know what I mean I wouldn't think like oh well it's all the same thing I wouldn't be surprised personally speaking about your wife I hope yeah not mine no my wife and my wife so it's that feeling like you know we imagine it matters to you like

whether something's made by someone human or whether it isn't. That will always be the case. Like it or not, we have special feelings towards our fellow apes. And the imperfections are part of what make us human. And I'm sure they will be able to ape and imitate our imperfections as well. You know, you get that thing. When I use music software on Logic, you get virtual studio instruments that you can use and they are getting better and better and they're mainly made up of samples a lot of the time but you can add things like with the VST pianos there's a button you can use

to turn up the creak of the seat of the person playing the piano to make it even more authentic and with the guitars as well you can have the sound of the fingers slipping over the strings, you know what I mean? All those little human touches are brilliantly mimicked by the AI. But I just am skeptical about the extent to which it will be able to, you know, replicate genuine mistakes and kinks and oddities and hang-ups and all the things that are so wonderful about humans. Maybe. I mean personally I think it will do those really well as well. Yeah probably. But I don't want to be Debbie Downer but I do

think that like I mean not to get too meta but like a live performance like this one there's something about the connection of all the good people here and the fact that we know that we are real. I think I know that I'm real. Pretty much. I'm not absolutely sure sometimes, but yeah, exactly. I mean, have you used chat GPT, for example? I, for the first time two days ago, a friend of mine was saying, you know, it's great for generating a bio.

You know, in the creative industries, sometimes they say, you're going to do an event and can you send your ladies bio? And you're like oh god. There's half an hour wasted writing About yourself in the third person which is always a weird experience like Louis Theroux went to Oxford University and Studied history and and then here I am sort of writing it up saying this Dwyer end of filmmaking Which is three BAFTAs you think really have to use the word Dwain you have to throw a few words in like that you know you've got to try to gee yourself a little bit but now apparently if you put into chat GPT yeah you generate a bio for

Louis Theroux it does a pretty good job well I thought it would be nice to see, to challenge chat GPT to generate a short theatre production for us to perform in front of the audience. Do you think that's a good idea? I mean not really but let's do it. Because it's always quite shit and for the first bit you're like okay this is funny and then after 10 seconds you're like oh it is not very good yet but that's why we're to do it. We are going now to come out of the keynote presentation and we are going to switch to the old chat GPT. This is real. This is real.

And I'm going to type in two minutes, like let's keep it short, theater script, oh no, live typing is difficult, about a famous documentary filmmaker and podcaster Louis Th friend Adam, 55, who is also a podcaster but is threatened by his old friend's success. I like it. I like it. Built-in conflict. The encounter becomes... Oh my god, can you...

I've never done this. You can give it that much information. I know, I should have... The encounter becomes awkward, surprising... Oh, I really should have just pasted this beforehand and shocking. Here we go. All right. So we've got to read this out, Luke.

Can you read that? Luke Fowler Yes, I can. Adam Fowler All right. Here we go. Who's first? Luke Fowler Setting. A small, cozy podcast studio. Two microphones set up on a table.

Louis and Adam sit across from each other. Adam, smiling but with a hint of tension. microphone set up on a table, Louis and Adam sit across from each other. Adam smiling, but with a hint of tension. Welcome back to another episode of Pod Talk. Today we have a very special guest, it's my old school friend, and now famous documentary filmmaker and podcaster, Louis. Great to have you here, Louis. Thanks, Adam. It's been a while. This is quite nostalgic. Yeah. Who would have thought back in the day, huh? You with your award-winning documentaries and me, well, still here.

You've built quite a following with your podcast, Adam. It's impressive. Yeah, but not as impressive as a BAFTA, right? Well, how's it getting that? Just from Louis? It's quite amazing. How does it get that? Scroll up. It's not a competition. We're both doing what we love. Is that what you tell yourself? What do you mean? You remember in school how you always had to outshine everyone? The star of the debate club, the top grades, and now this? Always in the spotlight!

Adam, I had no idea you felt this way. I thought we were just following our paths. Your path just happened to be lined with red carpets. Adam, it wasn't easy. There were struggles, sacrifices you don't see oh poor Louie sacrifices like what choosing between caviar and champagne no like losing friends because they couldn't see past my success realizing he's gone too far, then softer. Louis, I...

I'm sorry. It's just hard seeing you up there and feeling like I'm stuck. We all have our own battles. Your podcast is real, raw, it reaches people. That's powerful. Do you really mean that? Every word. Thanks Louis. Maybe I needed to hear that. We're still those kids from school. Let's not let this come between us. Agreed. So tell me about your latest project.

Gladly. It's about reconnecting with old friends. Well, you're off to a great start. Alright, Louis, let's dive in. Where do we start? I thought that was shit, and I didn't like any of it. I thought that was better than expected. It was grotesquely unrealistic and Not accurate Yeah, that was quite good wasn't it like it got the BAFTA just from Louie Is that what it was? Well, I guess Louie and documentary maker. Maybe there's not me I I'm quite I mean not I mean that actually was way better than I thought it would be. Yeah

We're fucked. Aren't we we are fucked? I'm quite, I mean not, I mean that actually was way better than I thought it would be. Yeah. We're fucked, aren't we? We are fucked. Now, I'm going to show you some AI-generated images of some of the guests you've had on your Louis Theroux interviews programs. You have to tell me who you think they are. Okay. How about this one? That's actually a pretty good Chelsea Manning. That's not bad is it? Yeah that's Chelsea Manning. But the Louis Theroux is not so good. No it's very sort of... The Louis Theroux has a bit Edward Snowden, oddly enough. Well there you go. I wouldn't be surprised if it's being asked to generate

Chelsea Manning and it's searching around the whistleblower files and it's thinking I'll pop a bit of Edward Snowden in there just for good measure. Anyway, I only watched that interview that you did with Chelsea Manning fairly recently and I really enjoyed it. There's did with Chelsea Manning fairly recently, and I really enjoyed it. There's the real Chelsea Manning. It was very moving and intense, that one. I didn't know much about Chelsea Manning, so fill us in if people aren't familiar. Well, Chelsea Manning, probably the most famous military whistleblower and responsible for

the biggest data leak in US military history, who with work as an intelligence operative and leaked vast numbers of files to WikiLeaks, then under the stewardship of Julian Assange, revealing the extent of, I mean, they were so vast it's hard to summarize, but among other things, complicity of the Iraqi regime in torture, higher numbers of civilian casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan that had previously revealed those were the war logs and then international diplomatic cables that showed real polity behind the scenes. And for me, you know, in this circle of trust, it was one that I really thought very hard

about before doing, mainly because I thought, well, actually, Chelsea Manning's been out of the spotlight for a good 10 years. She was in prison for seven years. She'd been in prison for seven years, and then it had come out, had a kind of short-lived political career, which didn't really take flight.

Yeah, I mean, she's a very damaged person in many ways, unsurprisingly, considering what she's been through. And she obviously divides opinions. And she's brittle. She talks know she obviously divides opinions. And she's brittle, she talks about the fact that her therapist suggested she might have undiagnosed PTSD and she gets upset a few times, one when you talk about Julian Assange you ask her about that and she gets upset by the idea that she is quote a side character in her own story she wants you to focus on.

That's right and in fact there was a short clip that went on Instagram that became the most viral clip that I'd ever shared on Instagram. I don't know if that sounds like me kind of bragging. Sorry about that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But there we are and I think you got like, because normally you put something on Instagram

and it gets like, I don't know, 50,000 or 100,000 if you're lucky. But this one, it was like a minute and a half, two minute clip, and it got like, it was up to 2 million, 4 million, 10 million. I think it's around 20 million at the moment when I last checked, which was about 20 minutes ago. No. And it was her saying, we're sitting down, I go, thanks for doing this. And she goes, doing what?

And I go, this interview. She says, oh, it was her saying we're sitting down like I go thanks for doing this and she goes doing what and I go This interview she says oh It was in the schedule. I've got the clip. Oh, have you got are you gonna tie didn't even know sorry Yeah, it's a very awkward beginning to a series of awkward. No, I don't have to do the offensive impersonation Thank you for doing this doing Doing what? This interview. Oh, yeah. It was on the calendar. It's on the calendar because you agreed to do it. Yeah.

I've got a high tolerance for awkwardness, but yours is off the charts. Explain. Well, you seem to be more comfortable sitting in silence. You're even better at it than I am. I've done it for all of you. off the charts. Explain. Well, you seem to be more comfortable sitting in silence. You're even better at it than I am. I've done it for a long, long, long time, way longer than you can imagine, Louis. What do you mean?

Like, I'm older than you. I've had way more practice than you. I was in solitary confinement, and that's all that was. Me sitting there in silence. I can just sit in silence for hours and hours and hours. That was sort of as you were setting up the interview, wasn't it? There's people setting up cameras and things

as that is happening. Was that right at the beginning? You know what, can I tell you a secret? Yeah. So what it was, was that's actually two bits through the magic of editing. The first thing I'll say, thank you for doing this, that was like when we sat down the first part of the interview. And I'm pretty sure that the second half of it is taken from the very end of the interview. I might be wrong, but my recollection is that at the end of the interview, I said something like,

wow, you've got a high tolerance for awkwardness, but I've got a high tolerance, but yours is off the charts. And it was at a point where I just sort of noticed enough about her to be comfortable kind of calling out her eccentricities. Right, so it's a tissue of lies is what you're talking about. It's an absolute forago of editorial unethical decisions. But I think it speaks to a higher truth.

It speaks to a presumably there were moments of genuine awkwardness intentionally. And then I made a couple of jokes that I thought were pretty funny where I was like, if you don't tell me the secrets, I'll have to get my bucket out. Like it was a waterboarding gag. And then after it was in the air,

I was like, why don't we put, those were good gags, man. And apparently while I was saying that, Chelsea's manager was off like having a tantrum because I was being so offensive. Sometimes I don't always call it right. I thought it was kind of funny, like we'd got to a point where we can joke about being tortured in solitary,

because it's, isn't it funny in the end it's always hard to know when that moment is yeah I was fascinated though by I mean I'm well aware of your coolness under pressure that's part of your brand not to be rattled in these situations but I thought I would love some tips genuinely I can't remember if we've spoken about this just as friends before or not, but increasingly I find myself really in trouble when I get into awkward situations. I don't know if it's getting older or just generally getting more fearful or I don't know what. I did an interview the other day remotely for the podcast for an episode that hasn't been out yet. It was on Zoom, they were in another country

and we were, and this was someone a few years, you know, a couple of decades older than myself, quite well established, revered figure. And I don't think they probably knew who I was. They probably had been told that it was a good thing to do by their PR people and We spent about half an hour trying to get the mic to work if you listen to the Verna Herzog episode I had a similar problem with

Verna and he got quite annoyed As well when we first tried to do it. I knew it would be like this. It's grotesque. Did you actually use the word grotesque? This is grotesque. I told him it would be like this. But he's got form for hyperbole. He in one of his films, he goes, Los Angeles, home to such atrocities as yoga. Exactly.

But with him, we managed it. We had to call it off the first time because we couldn't get beyond these technical problems with Werner Herzog. We ended up hiring a studio. It was all fine in the end. We did it again. And he was golden, you know. He was really nice and fun and friendly. And he never really got like personally fucked off with me He was just frustrated with the situation with this other person a few weeks back. They got fucked off with me and They were just like Annoyed they were like why is it important? Why does the why do we have to use this mic? I'd sent them a mic, right and they were trying to plug it in

They were like why can't I just do it the way I would normally do an interview I was like because the podcats care about great, great sound. And I don't know if that's true or not, but I certainly do. When I'm listening to a podcast, I just want it to sound really good. And the thing I hate most is downloading a podcast with someone I'm interested in. And it turns out that it's down the phone, you know? And it's just really annoying. It's like a barrier between me and that person. And it was so

bad. We spent half an hour fiddling around with this mic with me, sort of going, stand at the bottom left-hand corner, the mic icon, there's a little arrow, you just click on that. And so eventually we gave up and I said, okay, well, let's just see what we can do with just the mic on your laptop. And we started recording, but by that time it was very tense and this person was angry and it was not in any way a kind of relaxed chatting environment that a buckles favors. And I wanted it to be a fun chat. I really thought this person and I were going to get on pretty well as well.

And I said, okay, look, I can see you're sort of frustrated and tense there, and I'm sorry about that. Maybe we can reset. And so I started trying to make small talk and said, you know, how's things today in where you are there? You know, what's the weather like? And they just got so angry with that. Really?

Yeah. And you know this person all but rolling their eyes at me. I need some tips. So what would you do? How do you stare at Chelsea Manning there and not get rattled when she's... What you're describing is a kind of perfect storm of nightmarishness. I would be in exactly the same boat as you. Like with Chelsea, it's all in the spirit of

Kind of inquiry and she's being standoffish, but a little bit, but not really She's just being self-contained and did it warm up? No Mean we got through and they were very good like when they were monologuing you wouldn't know there was anything wrong It was just when it came back to buckles, it was wobbly voice time again. So the other thing is, ideally you can cut round it. I know it's a guilty secret of documentary making. The bits that make me look like a real dick or insensitive or incompetent or unprofessional, I like to cut those bits out.

And that's the great thing about things not being live. When I did an episode of a series called Forbidden America and the episode called Extreme and Online, and there was a character called Beardson Beardley, and he was kind of a ghastly troll of the internet, far right. I would say probably racist, definitely racist. And long story short, I'd interviewed him briefly and then went back to interview him again But in the interim I'd found a a video of him in which he appeared to be doing a Nazi salute, right? And I thought well, I'll bring that up now full disclosure. I actually I'm quite conflict averse. I don't really enjoy

triggering or upsetting interviewees even when they may be neo-nazis I'm not looking for a fight. Nevertheless, I'm enough of a program maker to realize that when it happens, sometimes it creates a spicy moment of conflict, but it doesn't feel good going into a situation where you think, okay, I'm going to mention this and it's probably going to jump the tracks and the person's going to get upset. But you know, this is the business we have chosen So I tried to bring it up in a way I said let's get this out of the way and I showed him the picture of him Apparently doing a Nazi salute. Oh, and I should say when I turned up for the interview. He was wearing a Louis Theroux t-shirt

As a kind of joke. Yeah. So anyway, surprise surprise He said you you know something along the line, you piece of fucking shit, why don't you come in here calling me a Nazi? Get out of my house! Get the fuck out of my house! Which was confusing for a moment because I wasn't in his house, I was in his garden. You know when someone says like a trivial thing in a big tent like, get out of my fucking house! I'm like, dude. I'm not in your house. I'm in your garden Like I know you're throwing me out, but what part of the property you throwing me out of you know I'm being thrown out of off the property of a man Who's wearing a t-shirt of me and also I've only been I'm only 15 minutes into the conversation at this point like I knew

It might get awkward But I didn't think having driven three hours to a remote part of Kentucky, that he would be 15 minutes in, he'd be like, fuck off, get the fuck out of here, sit on a dick and spin. So I slightly weakly was like, really? Hang on, can't we do a bit more?

What the hell, seriously? At first I was like, I was breathing hard, my heart was beating, I was like, what just happened? I think I just really fucked up. I think I was kind of made a royal hash of that encounter by getting myself thrown out. And then my sound guy was like, no, that was the best thing that could have happened,

wasn't it? And I was like, yeah, well, maybe. It was, you know, definitely make a lively interview scene. And then in the edit, we just cut out all the bits where I said, oh, please, can I carry on the interview? So it looked sort of like I'd done it kind of deliberately and I kind of looked a little bit like tough and mad. I looked vaguely Jeremy Kyle.

I'm sorry I mentioned the Nazi salute. Maybe it wasn't a Nazi salute. Can we start again? Yeah, and it looked like, you know, I'm the kind of guy who goes into interviews, I don't give a shit, I insult the people, they throw me out and I'm fine with it. So that was that was the version that the world saw. Editing, there you go. But tonight, podcats, you're seeing everything,

what's in all, not edited. And right now you are going to enjoy some music with my musical guest tonight who is, let me tell you, a marvelous man. I go into Jules Holland mode whenever I introduce a musical guest. Aloysius J. Oldman, all the way from Chicago playing on the bum flute with... No. It is a man, a male man man hailing from Newcastle this man has been releasing albums of folk inflected deconstructionist Eastern sci-fi metal jazz for over ten great years this is one guy that AI would struggle to approximate Richard Dawson hello how you doing I'm here to sing a song. How are you doing Richard, how have you been? Yeah I'm alright, I'm very well in fact and for

about two years I wasn't able to give that answer so for about six months I've been able to say I'm well when people ask and it's a new novel treat. Oh good, I'm glad to hear it. Okay, the song is inspired by going to watch my nephew, Matthew, play football when he was 12. And he was playing for World's End Boys Club and they were playing Seton Carew who are a notorious bunch of bad bastards. And their coach was effing and seeing at these 12-year-old boys. And I just thought, that's fantastic.

I must write a song about this. This is that song. Pallowing instructions from the touch line, that's my dad Purple in the face, getting really mad Man on, man on, an empty stadium yells Man on, come on, come on, the cross go sailing wildly over The hats of everyone Stop funneying around, keep it nice and simple You're not Lionel Messi Just pass the bloody ball Man on, man on An empty stadium, y'all's man on Come on, come on, the cross goes sailing widely over the heads of everyone. Perhaps we were expecting this to be a walk in the park

But these bastards from King's Priory room are kicking lumps out of us Man on, man on, an empty stadium, yeah, man, out Come on, come on The cross goes sailing wildly over the hands The left box slips, taking a free kick, it trickles over the mud straight to me In desperation he scrambles and slides I leap the flailing lad undink it Over the sprawl-party of the gold The gnat is carrying the ball

Takes a wobble I slice wide off the mark Everything goes quiet St staring into the red dark of my palms. They launch a long ball into our box. With a corner to defend I am on the near post Somehow it gets bundled underneath my feet At the final whistle I am inconsolably man on, man on

I reckon Dad is really disappointed with me Come on, come on He tries his best to not show How he really feels In the car hole He says dust yourself down Move on to next week's game Shall we pick up a Chinese or would you rather fish and chips?

Richard Dawson! I only discovered Richard's music a few years back and it was the first gig that I saw in Norwich Arts Centre after the end of all the lockdowns and it reminded me how much I value and love live music and to see someone as extraordinary as Richard just lifted my spirits in a very valuable way So I love you Richard Dawson And I if you're not familiar with Richard stuff I really recommend exploring it it is very varied and unpredictable and it's a wonderful journey it is very varied and unpredictable and it's a wonderful journey but right now Richard has kindly agreed and I really felt kind of embarrassed even asking him to do it but he has kindly agreed to play a kind of semi extemporaneous

version in a Richard Dawson style of the halfway through the podcast jingle so you go you go where you want to go with this rich and I'll come in when you start giving me a rhythm We're halfway through the podcast I think it's going really great Conversations flowing like it would between a geezer and his mate Alright mate! Mmm, there's so much chemistry It's like a science lab of talking There's fun chat, and there's deep chat It's like Chris Evans is meeting Stephen Hawking hey welcome back Podcats there we you see. I think that was a successful duet,

don't you, with one of my musical heroes. What do you mean I was singing flat? I know, that was deliberate. Anyway, if you enjoyed Richard's music and fancy exploring further, click the link in the description of today's podcast that'll take you to my website where you'll find some pictures that I took on the day. There's a couple of Richard's music videos, one for two halves, that's the track he just played from his brilliant album 2020 released in 2019 and that's probably quite a good place to start maybe if you're new to Richard. There's also the video for his track Polytunnel from this year's album End of the Middle and there's a video recorded by my producer Seamus who was there at

the Hammersmith Eventim Apollo on the day and recorded us rehearsing our halfway through the podcast jingle. Anyway that's all there waiting for you on my website accessible via the link in the description of today's podcast but right now let's return to the second half of the live show in which Louis and I compared notes on domestic strife with the help of my argument with wife log. But we began the second half after I'd checked in the interval that he didn't mind talking about it with me asking Louis about his alopecia areata, the common autoimmune condition that causes sudden non-scarring hair loss typically in patches most commonly on the scalp or beard

that Louie has been dealing with for a couple of years now. Lou posted an update in March of this year on his Instagram page saying that he was considering going for the full head shave in the next 12 months and getting the Stanley Tucci glasses and all that. Under the post I saw that British artist Tracy Emin who spoke to Louis on his podcast about her recovery from bladder cancer posted, You are you with or without your hair. Your alopecia is not what you are known for, as I am not known for being bladderless. Accept what you don't have and rejoice in what you do." Very nice message, which I will also take some heart from, considering the continuing desertion of my own cowardly hair. Although only from my head. Why couldn't the hair on my back fall out? What about that?

No, it just has to be the head hair. The rest of my monkey hair is doing fine. Sorry, that's more info than you need. I apologize, back at the end for a bit more waffle, but right now back to Louis on stage at the Aventum Apollo Hammersmith in June 2024. The alopecia is, it's weird like it's, there's one part of me, you know, kind of when I first certainly when I first noticed that not only had my beard fallen out, because that's what happened first, the beard fell out by little patches here and there. And I thought, well, that's not ideal. But especially when it was wonky. And then when it got to a stage where it was kind of, it was like a wonky van dyke as they called them in the day and then it became a

hit like a hitler mustache like the only parts of beard that was left was was like a little you know a hitler mustache which is obviously not ideal that's ironic after all the time you've spent with the far right i know it felt like nature had played a cruel trick on me but then that fell out and i thought well You know, maybe that's fine Like I just don't have a bit then the eyebrows mostly went and then I had a tiny little tuft of eyebrow and I thought oh I'm just gonna shave that off and then I posted a picture of myself on Instagram and people thought I was having a full Britney Spears meltdown I think but it was just I thought it looked neater. Anyway, I got the micro bladed back on I'm giving a full report on that's what I asked for

But then what's micro blading? That's it's like a temporary Tattoo where they like do to the line so it looks like you've got eyebrows But then one day my son said to me like dad you got weird patches at the back and that was I had a sinking I was oh shoot Like I thought it was gonna stop at the beard and the eyebrows and then I realized I was getting little patches all over so but you know you get over and you're like okay well there's definitely worse things in the world than that and my kids call me like freaky baldy ratty man and especially if they're crying the nine-year-old if he's upset he said you

baldy ratty man so I'm totally like inoculated against any kind of trolling or abuse. I've been called baldy ratty man on a more or less daily basis. Also that is a good rapping name. It would be good. Like that's probably my new identity. And honestly like there's a part of it that's a bit like being on an adventure. Every day there's a little change like there might be a new patch or the signs of little signs of regrowth, you know, so It sounds it sounds like I'm being maybe a little bit glib about it But I genuinely look at my hair and I always found I had too much hair

Like I was a problem for me. I go to the pubs and it was sort of untamable It was it just sat there like a big wedge of untamable, you know, her suiteness. And now it's like, there's not nearly as much, it feels manageable. And so I'm kind of in a strange way grateful about it. I'd like to keep, I wouldn't, I just don't want to look like, it would be a shame if it, like, if it fully went, like, if the patches got bigger than what was left. And I guess I'd just have to shave it off. Yeah, that is a definitely good option.

Would you change the style of glasses though if you went full Tucci? I think I'd probably get something, good question. I think I'd get slightly thicker rims because you want to make more of a statement. Exactly. There needs to be more for the eye to rest on. That's right. I think you look great, whatever your hair is doing with you or to you and do they know I mean Yeah, thank you very much. I

Might post an update on Instagram like I haven't done much I've been more Finster like just through that, you know lack of interest, but I I don't know. I did a few pictures of myself with all the patches on display Yeah, and then I was like, oh no, that looks a bit, that's a bit, that's quite strong stuff. It looks like a medical textbook. You know, people don't go to Insta to look at illustrations of common diseases, I don't think.

You know what I mean? They probably do. Well, maybe they do. Yeah. I don't know. Maybe I'll, I think maybe that wouldn't be the front photo. I have a front photo like that. And then you'd scroll past and be like,

oh, that looks disgusting. Would you ever go wig? You know what? Funnily enough, my wife said, what about a wig? And I'm like, if you think I'm the kind of guy who wears a wig, we don't know each other. But a lot more people wear wigs than you might imagine. Go on.

For all sorts of reasons. Putting them out there. Who are they? Did you mean secretly? No, I mean that I always grew up imagining that, well my mum used to wear wigs the whole time. I know it's more common for women to wear wigs. Really? But they still, you know, it still is a common thing. Well that's a hair piece. Isn't that a hair piece?

She wore a whole like proper old wig. Really? Yeah, she had a few of them and I think as well. Terry Wogan wore a wig, Paul Daniels wore a wig. There was a time when a lot of people wore wigs. I think nowadays, sorry if I've shocked anyone, I feel like I'm giving away the secrets of pro wrestling. The wrestling is real. I don't think I would wear a wig as a gimmick or a joke but if you're wearing a wig in the spirit of like, and this is my hair I'm a journalist You know people rely on me to try and tell the truth about things and I'll be like

But I uncovered a story be like his hair isn't even telling the truth. I can't trust anything he says You know what I mean? Yeah, fair enough because the thing about alopecia am I right is that it can totally reverse itself So I'm told I went to a specialist right is that it can totally reverse itself. So I'm told I went to a specialist, alopecia, there's so much information about alopecia, and they said within two years I think 60 or 70 percent of cases are reversed. Oh really? And the regrowth is often white, so I'm hoping I get this sort of Dave Vainion from the damned look. You know I could be one of those people who has like a white streak. Yes, like Catlin Moran. Yeah, but a real one. Yeah, hers is real.

Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's pretty cool. This is interesting info you're getting from the live podcast. This is heavy stuff. You said you were coming to a podcast and you're getting a podcast, folks. Exactly. This is what, you know, some of this stuff, if this was an episode, some of this stuff might even get edited out. Now I am transitioning conversation-wise to talking about how you are to live with and what kind of arguing techniques you use when you're at home. Oh gee. And maybe how you would have dealt with some of the arguments that I want to share with you from my log. Okay. Okay. I'm a mature guy and I like to keep things harmonious where possible, obviously within a long term relationship. I've been married to my wife 25 years now. Congratulations.

Thank you. That's great. Or thereabouts. And you know, there's bound to be some rows from time to time, but I do think that we've managed to talk through some of the underlying causes of those rows with quite an admirable degree of maturity. There's always something big bubbling away that's unresolved, you know, under the trivial disagreements, right? Of course. And I think we have tackled a lot of those quite well, but I do think that another important factor has been my decision to keep a log of the arguments.

Because it just cuts down, you know, it just reduces the risk of covering the same ground. Yes. Invaluable argument time. When things get heated, you know, there's always a moment where you think, we've covered this ground. Yes. Invaluable argument time. When things get heated, there's always a moment where you think, we've covered this one. And I'm pretty sure I won that time. And I wish I could just refer you to that. What do you like when things get tense in the house?

OK, so can I give you a little background? Yes, please. So my wife and I, we've been together about 20 years, and we've got three boys. And I'd like to think I've made some compromises, like part of marriage, a long relationship is adapting. We started a company together. Yes, it's doing very well.

You won a BAFTA this year for one of your programs. No, my wife won a BAFTA a few weeks ago. And full disclosure, like before we started the company, I was very nervous about working with her. You know, it was almost as though I wouldn't have that escape and the fault lines in the relationship, instead of being, instead of having those moments

to have time out in this other space, we would be fully in each other's pockets and it would almost short circuit, you know, there'd be no sort of lying fallow You know at work and then coming home refreshed. Yeah, man When you told me you were starting the company with Nancy, I just thought well, that's the end of that. Yeah Okay, so it turns out like so one one of the one of the big sources of conflict in the relationship And I can say this because it's in my book,

Gotta Get Thru This, available on Amazon, five stars from me. They took the review down, apparently you can't do that. As I talk about the way in which work would come between us because I was traveling a lot. So work was the enemy, is my point. Work was like the third person in the relationship. Work was my mistress, if I want to put it slightly fruitily. It was a mistress I would make love to passionately and in a dedicated and creative fashion, experimenting a lot of different positions. So you can see why it would get in the way of a marriage But it turns out like when you work together My work suddenly is no longer an enemy

it's actually a friend and a friend to the point where it's like it's been introduced into the relationship to the point where It's like when are you gonna make love with your mistress again? Because we've got deadlines to meet. Yes. And I'm saying I'm a bit tired, right? Are you following the metaphor? Yeah, yeah, it's very good. And I'm tired and it's Sunday night and I don't want to do that right now and she's like, well you said you'd write this treatment. I've actually jumped out of the metaphor. You said you'd write this treatment and

we've got a meeting with Sky tomorrow and what are we supposed to show them? Chat GPT. And I'm like, are you serious? In the old days, for me to do anything the weekend was a total no. You're not working, are you? No, I'm looking at my fantasy football on my phone. Are you sure? Let me see that.

Whereas now it's like, hey, look alive. So the good part is I've short-circuited, in a sense, one source of conflict, but it means that I'm at work all day, every day. Nightmare. I don't have that with my wife. She strongly disapproves and is uninterested in everything I do professionally. Start a company with her. So, yeah. Things are satisfyingly separate, which means that we tend to disagree about other things.

I'll share with you a few entries from the log and you can tell me where you think we're at. Subject of argument, me picking Banshees of Inner Sherin as our Christmas Day family movie. Christmas 2023, I was all excited about it because they were getting the team back together from Inbrews, which I love. Yes. It's an interesting film. Yeah, but... Not that festive.

No. My brother and sister were around and I assured the children it would be fun to watch. Main Point's wife, it was depressing pointless crap designed to win awards. That was the verdict at the end. And I really thought that, you know, whether you like the movie or not, I thought that we could sit around and discuss it. No, there was no discussion. That's harsh. I think that's a little harsh. It's a little harsh. Well, I countered with it was a powerful allegory about cis men yearning for immortality because they can't give birth. Like I, you know, it was a good take I thought. Legacies, that whole, it's a penis word legacy, isn't it? There you go. And mental illness and the troubles in Northern Ireland.

That bit I saw, I didn't see the bit about cis men but. And donkey nutrition. And playing a guitar with no fingers right does he actually play the guitar without his fingers I think he tries to spoiler alert mate additional points wife it was a big depressing wank and We should have watched Top Gun Navric again. Winner! That was my wife won that one. Yeah, probably.

How about this one? Being moody. Okay. Main points buckles. I don't understand why you're so moody. Main points wife. You're the one that's moody. It's like a toxic cloud. I don't think you realize how moody you are.

Does this ring any bells at all? This is a regular one. We have this one. I used to get that when I came back with jet lag, and my wife would say, you don't seem very happy to be here and I was like trying to Keep my eyes open saying no. No, I'm just a bit tired But I we haven't had that one lately beginning to wonder why I don't like that. Why we have it quite vague the nebulous What's wrong with you? You know, it's also a great way of starting an argument. Yeah. You're moody first. I'm moody because you're moody. I'm normally fun like on my podcast.

In fact, right now you're gaslighting me. There you go. I love as a man, as a man being able to fling gaslighting in a woman's face, it feels very, because you just know it's such a trigger, you know what I mean? You're gaslighting me! Yeah. You know... Because you can accuse people of gaslighting more or less all the time. Yeah.

Yeah. Winner buckles, I won that one. Yeah, you can't miss... If you can draw the gaslighting card first, you're basically home free. This one, I don't know if you can relate to this one, Subjective argument, me throwing away the random crap that's been in the big bowl in the hall for years including old chargers, membership cards, lanyards, packs of pills, cables, remotes, mini toiletries, shoelaces, receipts, interdental brushes, the red ones, hair clips, knackered headphones, phone numbers on scraps of paper, key rings and keys.

Old blue tack that's accumulated what looks like pubic hair yeah I mean I could go on and on main points wife there might have been stuff in there I needed main points buckles you haven't needed it for the last ten years additional points wife you should have checked with me first which which is true. That is true. I knew that was true. Is it though? Well then I made the point, but then I wouldn't have, it wouldn't have got thrown away.

And the winner in that case was my wife. Really? Yeah, because she was right, I should have checked with her first, but it did get thrown away so in a way it was actually a buckles that won that one. How about this one? Whose family is more dysfunctional? Yeah that's a high-risk argument that could go to a dark place quite fast and they're all dumb you're just like your mum because that's a double whammy like You're a dick and your mum's a dick

What's wrong with my mum I Love my mom main points wife yours is Main points buckles. Yeah, I think yours is winner buckles is. Main points buckles. I think yours is. Winner buckles. Subject of argument. Wife updating me on which friends and family members have cancer just before scheduled marital relations. Wow. I'm interested to see where this goes. Well, at Mainpoint's, Buckles, it's not exactly sexy. Mainpoint's wife, it's the only time we get to discuss important things. I'm impressed that you have scheduled any marital relations.

That's the sign of a healthy relationship. Well, Buckles won that one. Now you've got to schedule the relations, but then to start covering like admin and illness, death, bad news bulletins, that is not in any way sexy or cool. Yeah, I would happily tolerate that. If that was the price of admission, I would be like, how's the cancer? Yeah, anyone else got cancer? Do you know what I mean? Do you want to talk about cancer? Upstairs, cancer upstairs in the bedroom won't take very long and finally subject of

argument wife leaving dirty plates and coffee mugs by the sink to clean later this is a tough one because she works very, very hard. We both work from home. So it seems so petty to pull her up on something like that. I just, I don't like it. So what I do, rather than being grumpy about it, I frame it as like a helpful hack. That's a good, yeah, I like that. And I say, I always think it's better to clean as you go Yeah, that's the trouble with a helpful hack In your mind comes out and sounds passive-aggressive

Something between the thought and the action it becomes passive-aggressive doesn't it? Yes, and that's why she replies I always think it's better to fuck while you are Not sure who wins that one. Anyway, so that's the argument situation. Well played. End of thing. I wish I could relate. Wait. continue.

Hey welcome back Podcats! That was Louis Theroux, of course, joining me on stage. I'm so grateful to Louis for coming along and being my guest. I think both of us are quite nervous to be in front of such a large audience in that legendary venue. But it was a great night. I think everyone had fun. Louis' podcast on Spotify

continues to go from strength to strength. But I'm encouraged to see that he has a new documentary out. I think he should do more of that. He's good at that. Don't worry about the podcasting. Just have a break. Ten years or something and you carry on with that documentary making because it's good stuff. The one on tomorrow night is called The Settlers. 14 years after his first visit, Louis Theroux meets some of the growing community of religious nationalist Israelis who have settled in the occupied West Bank. Louis also meets Palestinians whose lives have been impacted

by the settlers. There you go. That'll be nice and light. Anyway, thank you so much, Louis, once again for being my guest. I really appreciate it and I look forward to the next time. Couple of brief podcast recommendations before I say goodbye today. I was very pleased to see that the Horn section podcast is back. Alex Horn and his brilliant band pissing about. That podcast got me through some dark times in the lockdown. It's high quality silliness and musical fun. I've also been listening to another

podcast that I've liked for a while and I mentioned before years ago though, Ezra Klein's podcast. He is an American liberal political commentator and journalist and his podcast The Ezra Klein Show is excellent. I mean he's what is he, 40 or something? But I mean he's a very smart, articulate guy and he has lots of interesting people on his podcast, usually talking politics in a fairly involved way. But on the latest episode it's a slightly different type of conversation. He talks to a conservative American author and a fellow New York Times columnist called Ross Douthat. D-O-U-T-H-A-T. He wrote a book called Believe Why Everyone Should Be Religious and he himself is a Roman Catholic. Ezra Klein is Jewish but more of an atheist but he does talk about the fact that his mind is open to the mystery of the

universe and it's a good conversation it reminds me of the kind of conversations that sometimes me and my friends would have at school albeit at a far stupider level. But Ross and Ezra start off talking about Christianity within the Trump administration and to what extent Trump and people in his cabinet are governed by their religious faith. But then the conversation goes to more unexpected areas and they talk about various forms of mysticism and the supernatural and the possibility that the supernatural world could be accessed by the use of psychedelics and mind-expanding drugs and the fact that that would be dangerous Because a lot of people accessing those realms wouldn't have the proper training to deal with what they find there

That's just one of the sections and you know, Ezra Klein as a skeptic is Pushing back on some of this and Ross Douthat and well, you have to listen to the conversation I'm not going to do either of them justice by describing it, but it was really But you have to listen to the conversation. I'm not going to do either of them justice by describing it, but it was really fascinating. And it reminded me as well of my mum, who was religious, and told me when I was quite young about the dangers of Ouija boards. And I remember being surprised that she would warn me about those things because even though she was religious in her later life like when we were kids I didn't get the sense that

religion was that important to her but I guess that was the way she was brought up and she was warning me off the old Ouija board saying that that was a possible portal to the dark side that I didn't want to mess with and I was very struck by that because I thought really do you believe in all that then mum? Anyway this conversation with Ezra Klein and Ross Douthat reminded me of that and made me think actually maybe I should have taken mum a little bit more seriously. I write about that in my book, sorry to mention the book again, but I write about it in quite a stupid irreverent way, you won't be surprised to hear, and listening to the

Ezra Klein podcast today made me think perhaps I should have been a little more reverent. See what you think? Okay I'm gonna head back now. Thank you very much indeed once again to Louis and Richard and everybody as well who was involved with the podcast tour, particularly the tour crew, Ben Saunders, Richard Walsh, Annalisa Lembo and everyone at Crosstown Promotions. Thanks to Bekah Briers for her wrangling of the live recording. Thanks very much indeed, even more than usual to Seamus Murphy Mitchell. He was there on the day in London last year and it was great to have him there. I was very nervous and Seamus was really a crucial part of

helping it all go smoothly and enabling me to enjoy it. So thank you so much Seamus. Thanks to Helen Green, she does the artwork for the podcast. Thanks to everyone at Acast and thanks to you for coming back. Oh it's quite cold now. Come here. Allow me to warm you up in a completely non-creepy way. Hey, how you doing? Good to see you. Alright, Till next time, please go carefully. It's still nutty out there. And for what it's worth, I love you.

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little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a

little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a Thanks for watching!