THE ADAM BUXTON PODCAST - EP.248 - LOYLE CARNER

Episode Date: June 2, 2025

Adam talks with British-Guyanese rapper Loyle Carner about Mums, Dads, being a parent, kids' music, bear attacks, managing ADHD, unwelcome thoughts and the value (and potential danger) of hope.Conversation recorded face-to-face in London on 12th May, 2025Thanks to Séamus Murphy-Mitchell for production support and additional conversation editing.Podcast illustration by Helen Green SIGN UP FOR NEWSLETTER Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I added one more podcast to the giant podcast bin Now you have plucked that podcast out and started listening I took my microphone and found some human folk Then I recorded all the noises while we spoke My name is Adam Buxton, I'm a man I want you to enjoy this, that's the plan Hey, how are you doing, Podcats? It's Adam Buxton here

with my best dog friend Rosie the hot dog Happy to say she's trotting along beside me and doing some panting. Would she rather be in the kitchen on the sofa? Yes. But even she can't deny that it's nice to be out on a pleasant, slightly blustery and cloudy evening at the very beginning of June 2025. How are you doing anyway Podcats? I hope you're well wherever you are. Thanks to everyone who came out to the Hay Festival last week. It was lovely to meet some of you. I'll waffle a little bit more at the end about that and some forthcoming events but right now let me tell you a bit about podcast number 248,

which features a rambling conversation with British Guyanese rapper Loyal Kana. Loyal facts. Benjamin Gerard Coyle Lana, his stage name is a spoonerism of his surname, was born in 1994 to a British mother and a Guyanese father who Ben did not have much contact with growing up. Instead, he and his brother were raised by his mother and stepdad in Croydon, South London. After studying drama in his teens, the death of Ben's stepfather in 2014 played a large part in his decision to commit full-time to music. He played his first official gig in 2012, aged just 18, at the Button Factory in Dublin, where he supported rap royalty in the form of MF Doom. Five years later, in 2017, Ben released his first album, Yesterday's Gone, which garnered both Mercury

Prize and Brit Award nominations. This year sees the release of album number four, entitled, hopefully, out on the 20th of June. But earlier this year, Loyal went back to acting, with his first major role in a BBC TV drama, Mint, directed by Charlotte Regan, whose much-praised debut feature Scrapper was released in 2023. Mint is described as a darkly comic and unconventional drama about a crime family's inner life. I think the first time I was aware of Loy carna properly was in 2019 when we showed one of his videos at bug The one for otta Lengie directed by Oscar Hudson

One of my favorite kinds of video The sort of thing Michelle gondre used to do so well very simple visual tricks all set on a train journey on which Loyal has fallen asleep and begins to dream. I'll put a link in the description. Brilliant video but also a lovely track and I just thought yes please. My conversation with Ben was recorded just a few weeks ago, as I speak, in mid-May. We met in a North London recording studio where Ben and his band were rehearsing for the Glastonbury Festival, have you heard of that one?

Where he will headline the other stage on the Friday night. And as well as some festival chat, we spoke about mums and dads, and navigating the uncertainties of parenthood. Ben is the father of two young children. We also talked a bit about kids music, a part of the conversation which took an unexpected turn into a fairly graphic description of a bear attack, just so you're aware. That was my fault. Not the attack, the conversational term. We also spoke about the value of hope, and to what extent it can also be dangerous. Some big philosophical topics in this convo. A name dropped, Nietzsche, and then Descartes, when we talked about

unwelcome thoughts, especially in the context of managing ADHD, which Ben has done throughout his life. I had a great time talking to Ben about all this stuff. He's one of the more emotionally engaged men I've ever met, I think, and though his voice, as you will hear, is always beautifully calm and steady, there were several moments during our conversation when his eyes filled with tears as he talked about moments that were meaningful to him, being with his mum at Glastonbury and watching the British musician and sometime collaborator, Sampha, playing the piano in the studio for

example. It was, if I say so myself, a beautiful ramble which began with me trying to figure out what I should actually call him. Back at the end for a brief waffle slice, but right now with Ben slash loyal carna, here we go. Let's have a ramble chat We'll focus first on this Then concentrate on that Come on, let's chew the vat And have a ramble chat Put on your conversation coat And find your talking hat Yes, yes, yes La, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la Now do people in this setting call you Ben or loyal?

It's up to you, you call me Ben or loyal, whatever you feel. It's honestly up to you, which is such a horrible answer, isn't it? Ben go for it. Yeah, okay But do you do you think of yourself as loyal in your head in? This setting probably a little bit more than usual. Yeah, but as I've got older I think I kind of I think of myself more as Ben, you know, okay now I keep thinking of you as loyal I want to call you Ben, but it's confusing but it is confusing because that's my relationship Yeah, you're loyal the loyal is

You and forgive me if this is a massively hack question Hmm, but do your fans call themselves loyalists Wow I don't know if I have enough listeners to have like a group yet, but maybe I will be nice I know there's like a loyalty card you can get I was gonna ask. Yeah, that's like I've seen that online But loyalists would be nice. I guess the thing about loyalists though is there's some Political baggage that goes with yeah. Yeah, I think so. Maybe best to stay clear. Yeah, exactly Yeah, I think so. It may be best to stay clear. Yeah, exactly So you are officially on the kind of promo circuit for this record. Is that right? Actually? Yeah Yeah, but it's still quite small, you know trying to only speak with people, you know

If I really want to do it, you know, which is a bit of a blessing of this process compared to others So I feel really lucky to sit down with you. Well, thank you so much for doing it Do you enjoy promo though? Like is it easy for you or does it make you? Yeah, I think I think I'm anxious sometimes, you know, cuz I speak without thinking sometimes, you know and That's like in this in the climate of now it's kind of dangerous sometimes, you know so it's more just that like I don't want to you work so hard to like articulate how you feel in quite a nuanced and refined way,

and that's the piece of art you've made. And then sometimes I worry that you can butcher that by over-explaining it or not summing up as efficiently or eloquently. But I enjoy it. It helps me understand personally and selfishly. It helps me understand where I'm at with the piece of work I've made, you know, so I do find it useful and at times quite beautiful.

Have you ever had media training? No, I wish I need it. I need it as well. Yeah, I'm promoting a book at the moment and every other interview I come out and I've just got a knot in my stomach and I'm just like I am an inadequate agent for my art. But that's what's so difficult isn't it because it's not I've never been able like I'm not like the one to promote it I say you know like back in the ages of Motown or whatever obviously the artists were never getting much money or respect but like there was like a whole world

that were helping put it to people you know to explain what it is and how to engage with it and I think when you're the person who makes it it's really hard because you have no perspective you know I'm looking at it like right in front of my nose and I think you really need to be able to zoom out to see what it is or what it could mean to other people in order to be able to kind of present it you know like to kind of make it seem like it's something of note, of interest. Understanding what you mean to other people is the big, massive quest, isn't it?

Like either you don't care and you cut yourself off completely from that. You don't ever think about it. You just plow your own furrow and whatever. Or you go the other way, which so many people in the modern media age, like the digital age and the internet age do. You can spend your whole life checking out what people think. You can just know what people think, but you don't know what they really think as well. You just know what they're comfortable to say on a keyboard. But yeah, it's harder and

harder to not engage with that. And I think it's affecting art it's affecting art, you know, in like a, in some ways, you know, like the presentation of it, there's so many blessings that come along with the, how immediate it can be to share and comment. And you know, like not comment, I guess, doesn't really help because you would never go to a gallery and see the Mona Lisa or whatever, and then see like all the comments underneath of like, this many people have viewed it or she's got a double chin or you know, like you would never see it. Yeah.

Gash. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it kind of gets, you know, it definitely gets in the way. But I think more than that what I find, you know, from peers of mine and people I really look up to that I've had a chance to speak with is it's really hard not for it to get in the way and stop you from sharing stuff. You know, that like I find it like I make videos, I direct my own videos and if one doesn't get as many views, it makes me kind of go or likes or positive feedback or whatever you kind of go. I probably won't release enough one of those for a bit because that kind of hurt me, you know, when really you're not doing it for that. You know, you're you're you know, there's I feel like there's a lot of people out there

who would release a lot more share a lot more if they weren't thinking about like the open engagement of it because engagement is fine. But like it being so public, you know. Yeah, that's the thing. It's nice when you know that the people listening or engaging are well disposed to you. So they're going to receive everything you give them in the best possible spirit. But when you travel beyond that into the wider world where people are a little more indifferent, then they're not so well disposed. They might misinterpret where you're coming from or just view it in the most unkind light. It can be, which can be fine. You know, I think like in the real world, that's fine. You know,

when we play festivals and you see kind of the first few rows of people who are intentionally there to see you. And then you see the next few rows of people who are kind of like friends have brought them. And then behind that is people who are just waiting for the next person or because they can't be able to move or they're drunk or whatever. And sometimes to me that's kind of the most honest representation of how you're really doing you know because these are just people that are coming to experience what you have with no explanation you know which I think in a way you kind of should engage with some art like that you know like I don't like to watch trailers before I watch a film because

I don't want to know what it's about you know I want to experience it but I think because of online it's like I want you to like people to engage with it however they want to but I don't want to know how they engage with it I think is the issue online you know like if you hate it that's fine but you don't have to like let me know immediately with loads of emojis you know that's the thing isn't it like in the live environment then that's fair enough isn't it and that's gonna encourage you to really pull out the stops to win the crowd over as well so that must be quite fun. For us when we play festivals especially in Europe or you know further afield

sometimes we're on in the middle of the day and there's just no guarantee that anyone will show up and at times those shows have been the best because you start to understand actually what songs are good and what songs are not good. Because it's easy for people to sing along if they know, even if it's not a good song. Because if I see someone that I kind of half know and their big single is out or whatever and it comes on, part empathy, because I know how it feels, but also just because I want to be seen to know it. I'll be singing along just to be like, oh, I know this one, even if I don't really like it. But I think if you play songs in front of people and they

know nothing about you, you'll then know quite one, even if I don't really like it. But I think if you play songs in front of people and they know nothing about you, you'll then know quite quickly what songs or whatever you make, you know, if you put it in front of an audience who doesn't understand you, you'll know what things work universally in a meaningful way. You know? So you're playing Glastonbury this year. Yeah. And you've got a good old slot there, if you don't mind me talking about your slot.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're headlining the other stage on Friday night, which I think is the best night to play because it means that you can kind of enjoy the festival without pressure. You know, I'll be bringing my kids and my partner and stuff and yeah, to be able to kind of go and treat it as a show and to enjoy the ceremony of it, but then not have it hanging over me all weekend because it's such a big deal. So you're on at what time? 9.30 or something?

Something like that, 9.30, 10, in that pool park. Yeah. And how long do you play for? About 75 minutes, which to me is too long. I really feel like an hour is like the perfect thing for anything. A movie maybe 90 minutes and a set 60 minutes because I want to leave people I never maybe it's just my when I go to see a show But I get to the point after about an hour and a bit where I'm like, I've loved this and I would really love it to end now

And when it doesn't I start to resent it and I don't want that ever to do that to people so But I've had a lot of complaints when I started of my set being too short Because not everyone thinks like me about it. I just think you're absolutely right. That's just so much better to leave people wanting more and to have a little nice concise moment. I guess I understand when there's a financial dimension to it and people feel like, oh well I paid for these tickets, I want my money's worth, but on the other hand you want to have a good time and you don't want that feeling is so sad of just feeling like I'm a little bit bored now yeah yeah and it's someone that you love I think also you know with me my friend were talking about this the other day about art in general and the best art to me or the stuff I love there seems

to be this current thread of like this continuous thread of like things being a bit incomplete that I get to finish it off in my head you know and I think in a way to watch a set where you don't see everything and you don't hear absolutely everything so there's still a little bit of mystique and magic to it you know like I love watching festival sets because you know in a way sometimes they play their best bits or they play their new bits or whatever and you're kind of left going I really want to see them again and you might never get a chance to you But just that like feeling of that childlike feeling of hope and wonder and do you remember? Your favorite festival set or one of the festival sets you ever saw that really stuck with you. Um Yeah, actually and it's kind of taboo now, I guess but not to Bill Cosby. No but But Bill Cosby. No, no, no. But I saw Kanye West with my mum.

Right. And I was meant to see Kanye West, old Kanye West, which is also a phrase that I don't like to say, but it's true. I was such a big fan of his, you know, when College Dropout came out and I was very young. And I think someone had been shot or stabbed or something at Brixton Academy and my friend had tickets and I said to my mum, like, I would love to go see Kanye West. It was like my foot had been my first gig. And it was, you know, just as he was kind of becoming a person, you know, like a person of note in the world that I existed in. And my mum was like, there's no way you're going. There's no way.

So it's too dangerous. I was like, but I'll be with my friend and his dad and his mum's going and another friend. How old were you? I think like between but I'll be with my friend and his dad and his mom's going and another friend How old were you did you think like between like 12 and 14? And that like you may be a bit younger maybe a bit older, but you but young for sure You know I guess for my mom's generation of parents like the view of rap was a little bit like unless you grew up on it There was like negative connotations with it whatever and she was like you can't go and I never let her forget it

basically, you know, I mean it worked out in you know for me because it meant made me end up doing it as a job but years later he played Glastonbury and I had lost all the people I'd come with and my mum was there with some of her friends and she had lost them and we were we both kind of bumped into each other just before we started playing and I said to my mum like you know Kanye West is playing and would you want to stay with me because obviously you let me down years ago and she she was like, of course, I'd love to. So more, not so much for the show, because the show is very ego centric even at that stage of his career, but to be there with my mum was almost worth missing it as a kid, you know, to watch it with her.

And for her to like kind of, in a way was like cool for her to watch it and understand why I wanted to see it so bad when I was a kid and just how much I love it, you know, makes me want to cry. I don't know why, but like the articulation of those emotions and how he feels at that time on that album meant so much to me. And she saw me feeling that and understood it, you know, so it's a big deal. It is. Yeah, I just had a lot of love for it, yeah. Now you were very kind and agreed to meet my daughter. Yeah.

Who's called Hope, who's a big fan of yours. And she was very excited when I said there was a possibility I was going to be talking to you. So she traveled to London to just say hi. That's crazy. And we got a photo. But I also asked her if there were any things that she wanted me to ask you. That's crazy. And we got a photo but I also asked her if there were any things that she wanted me to ask you. Oh wow. So I've got some questions that she

came up with. That's awesome. Question one, how do you feel about the blending of your personal life and your music? Yeah I don't know how to feel about that sometimes. I think I never thought about it when I started out making music because I was very unaware that anyone would ever really hear it. You know, I was doing it to make myself feel better or understand how I felt. And I think, especially now I have kids, it's like that's been like a whole new thing on this process of finding a way to articulate, you know, like how I feel like the love I have for them, but, but not sacrifice any of their

privacy or, you know, their life and not to commodify them, you know, into ever feeling like they're partly in use of a product or to sell a thing, you know, which, yeah, is easier said than done. I think on my second album, I got some like mean reviews, which everyone gets at some point. And I remember them being like quite targeted to like the subject matter of my album, but then that being my family and having to kind of reconsider because for someone to cut down your work is fine, you know, but to cut down your work, that's actually just a reflection of, you know, a real representation of your family or the people you love is a bit harder to navigate. And so as I've made music, I've become more coded, I think more protective of those that are hold close to me. And also with the understanding now that a few people

might actually hear it when I release it, you know, which is not something I was thinking about at the start. Have you ever had awkward moments off the back of that kind of thing? hear it when I release it, you know, which is not something I was thinking about at the start. Have you ever had awkward moments off the back of that kind of thing? Not really, you know, I think, like some of my early music about my dad was like kind of angry, you know, but we, like, I think actually was kind of good, you know, that kind of helped. I was able to kind of like say some stuff to him that maybe I wouldn't have said what

I couldn't say to him, you know, but he understood and heard it and was like kind of, you know, embarrassed or his friends are here and then it kind of made us have to talk about it. So maybe good actually. To my mind, like as a parent, you have to face up to it, I think, and you can go into being a parent as I did being like, I I'm gonna be the best one, there ever is. And then about like a week in you go, oh, actually, yeah, gonna be terrible. You're like everyone else. And I think like being able to turn over your heavy stones

and look at it and speak with your kids or whatever and go. Because also things that are big memories for you and usually not big memories for them and the things that you don't remember, tiny things that you like flip away like, oh, they will never remember that or not even, you don't even like comprehend it. They're the things that you don't remember tiny things that you like flip away like oh they will never remember that or not even you don't even like comprehend it they're the things that really stick with them and if you know my son ever says to me dad you know when you do xyz or you did this or that really hurt my feelings or it made me sad or all you can do in that moment is

acknowledge it because it's true you know it's not like him saying it hurt him what are you saying your parents did what i don't know what you said But like I think the only thing a parent can do is go. Yeah, sorry. Yeah, of course You're right, you know but I've had that the first time that happened to me when my kids got old enough and they were in their teens and they were starting to articulate things that they'd been upset by when they were little and In my mind, it's like what you? You totally misunderstood that. It was five. That was nothing. I remember that. And it was absolutely nothing. You're making too big a deal out of it. That was

my initial response to defend them because yeah, that's also your perspective there too. And it probably did it like if you to zoom out as an adult, it's like, oh, that is. And if any other adults saw it, they were like, yeah, that's fine. Other parents would be like, no worry, nothing to worry about. Because just don't like, especially, that's fine The other parents were like no worry nothing to worry about The kids just don't like especially when you're a kid and you live with your parents and you're young your parents are like They're your whole existence and they your whole like reference point if you're lucky to live with both of them or at least to live with one of the outside world and how they navigate the outside world is how you will and Start to navigate it until you learn that probably it's not the best way or whatever.

I think even if you obviously you can caveat with like this is maybe not real past your experience, but you have to acknowledge it. But it's of course I'm saying it like I do it and already I find it hard because whenever he says like me and my partner are arguing or whatever he's like guys are arguing and I'm like we're not arguing we're just talking about this thing and we disagree and we're both frustrated you know yeah yeah yeah but he doesn't get that he just gets it like the voices that are raised no one's listening to him about turning the TV on and he doesn't like that you know yes exactly me and my wife had a route a

while back and one of the kids said something like you guys are always arguing I said that is just simply not true. And I've got the argument log and I can show you dates and we don't argue. I mean, we, you know, we go through phases where we might be techy with each other, but we're not one of those couples. We're not like my parents used to be.

They were at hammer and tongs the whole time. And plus I think we've got a lot better, But it is always you know, again, it's a reminder. It's like, well, from their perspective, every single confrontation, every single uncomfortable meal is a big deal. True. And it's a sadness, you know, but to repair it is the thing. I don't know if you read that

book by Pepper Perry, the how Oh, yeah, I know. Your kids will be glad you read the opening chapter which I think is clever is the opening chapter because you know I'm like many people maybe don't like ever finished books but I always start them with a good intent and she's put like to my mind that the most important chapter at the very beginning and it's about kind of that like this idea of rupture and repair and that rupture is inevitable

you know like if you're living with people no matter who the relationship is with parents or George and friends you know like romantically and the rupture is if it's inescapable the best thing to do is accept it but the next thing the thing that's most essential especially for kids is to repair it you know is to go not to leave it not to be like you fall out of your kid or you fall out in front of your kid and then to never address it. And the next day at the dinner table, you act like everything's fine, but to kind of go last night sucked, right? Like me and mama really shouting and it was kind of, you were really sad and then you went to bed and we didn't really talk and I could see you, you

know, like completely unpack it. Yeah. So that there's no secret there. And also to show that it actually affected you too. Because if my son sees me kind of go last night sucked then for him to feel like last night sucked is not like he's not worried he's gonna be in trouble if he says like that really made me sad you know because we can be like that made us sad too we don't want to fall out you know yeah yeah I'm presuming your parents did not do the repair and rupture. My mum, I feel like my mum did, like, but then in a way sometimes my mum was like, was like conscious, because it was just me and her for a long time, like wouldn't, like didn't

want to even get to the rupture, you know, like if it would start to happen it would just like kind of be like, it's fine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's fine, don't worry, you know. But me and my dad, we've had to like, but the thing was so crazy about it is like me and my dad must have repaired like probably the biggest rupture that I had experienced like, you know, probably my life with him and like at the hands of him, you know, and like, we was kind of- What do you think-

Able to like begin to repair it almost like fucking 25 years later, you know? So it's what I remember when me and my dad were hashing it out and it was like, almost felt like yesterday, you know, to get a hug and like just I'm sorry, that's my fault. Like as small as that, you know? And I was like, whoa, like, like the scene in Ratatouille when the guy like eats the Ratatouille and it takes him back to his childhood, you know, I was like straight there and felt like the kid that didn't get a hug then, the kid me got that hug now and then you know Like in a child and our child

Yes, it's heavy Heavy man That's wonderful that you got that though most people just dream about that moment Yeah, yeah, I think but I think also because people sometimes scared to ask about bring it up You know what I mean to actually be like wiki let me down ball So yeah, like how awesome that my dad is able to do that too yeah because it's easier to just go no like instead what most people do I guess is I know I've done it I mean you could sort of say I've written two books about

it is I hope I don't blame my parents for everything and I hope I do remind myself that and other people that, you know, I loved them both so much and they were, I was so lucky to have them and they did me so many favors in so many ways and, you know, got me this amazingly privileged life that I'm very grateful for. But the temptation is always there to kind of make sense of your own life by identifying all the ways that your parents screwed you up and all the all the hang-ups you inherited

from them and that they put on you. But I was watching this John Waters video, you know, the director, American director. I think yeah, just just to try and find like to love, to help them like learn how to love themselves and put themselves first, you know, and to do what they enjoy, you know, like to really like not feel any pressure. Of course, there's financial pressure, housing, all this stuff that comes as you get older, but like, especially in those formative years, to like lead with like these things that I really like like that make them feel good, you know, and to help them discover those and nourish those. And to show I mean, like the

my promise to them is just to is just to show up, you know, like if they do if they're interested in something, if they like something, I just to love that, you know, whatever it is, even if I don't agree at the start, what do you think the values are that you got from your mom? That's a big old question. I mean, have you got a sense of what the main things are that you want to pass on to your own children? Yeah, just you know, like let them do what they enjoy doing, you know, and help them find that, trust them. Like what are the big rules? With my children, the thing I'm like, I didn't have many. I felt like, you know, you, you feel so inadequate.

You're like, God, there's so many things that I've done wrong and that I continue to do wrong. It feels weird to act like, you know, anything with your children sometimes. But the things I have tried to pass on that I know are true, don't lie, take pleasure in trying to do things well. Like that is a fun thing to actually care about how well something is done. And generally to sort of try and fight the urge to be negative about things as far as possible. Those are the main things. Also don't lick the back of a metal ice tray you've just taken out of the freezer. Please never again.

Because I did that and I peeled off the top of my tongue. I don't know what I'm going to do. I mean definitely, I mean like the first one my mum taught me but just to be kind. You know, like as much as possible and always go there. If you don't know which way to go like lead with that, you know, especially if people are being unkind and to like to listen in that way. But I think, yeah, just to help them like learn how to love themselves and put themselves first, you know, and to do what they enjoy, you know, like to really like not feel any pressure. Of course, there's financial pressure, housing, all this stuff that

comes as you get older, but like, especially in those formative years, to like lead with like things that make them feel good, you know, and to help them discover those and nourish those. And to show, I mean, like my promise to them is just to show up, you know, like if they do, if they're interested in something, if they like something, I just to love that, you know, whatever it is, even if I don't agree at the start to try and understand it enough before I dismiss it or to try and say it's not helpful or it's not healthy or whatever, you know, to really like, to like walk in their shoes for a bit, you know. But I think that's it, just to love what they love and who they love and you know, that good stuff. Do your kids

listen to your music? Yeah, I mean on this album actually it's been nice because they're to me quite a good meat stick of like what is immediate music, like what is music for the real sense of it, you know, like to uplift or to carry or to hold or to you know to sit with someone in sadness, like not like I'm trying to make simplify my music in a way so that it it's really hard to sum up how I feel about them in words and my music has become more melodic and become more abstract because my love for them is that, you know, it's not literal because it can't be the love of kids, you know, like the love of my children is confusing and like everything, I have no words for it and so I think my latest album

they love because of that, you know, because I think that they can feel their presence on it. You know, there's like chaos and then complete calm and then destruction and then hope and anguish, you know, like all the things that you feel like getting changed for swimming or whatever, you know. So yeah, I think on this album, but they don't kind of comprehend it's me so much, or they don't comprehend that like it's different to what other parents do. You know, like, I think they think that all parents get in the car and listen to the same

song with tiny differences to check the EQ of the drummer, you know, like with a dad shouting or whatever. So yeah, and I long may that continue. I'm kind of hesitant. You know, the shows, I guess is the only place where they kind of see that there's something like weird going on with me. What kind of stuff do they like listening to in the car if it's not your music? Red Hot Chili Peppers. Oh, yeah.

Californication. It's my son's favorite album. They love Sampha. They love... Well, I'm playing a lot of Elliott Smith to my son right now. Oh, really? And he's starting to really enjoy that. Like guitar, they just love guitar. And drums. Those two things are like, my daughter loves drums and my son loves guitar. That's a little roughage in their musical diet.

When I was a kid, we just listened to my parents music, which was Glenn Miller and Wagner if my dad was driving. And then Frank Sinatra and things like that. And then the Muppet show. We got the Muppet show cassette and that was a big deal. Did they listen to the kids music? Yeah, of course. Like Bluey. Bluey is like the number one, cause that's my favorite kids show.

And there's, and then baby Jake, then if you know baby Jake, don't know baby Jake. O Jake, Oogie Oogie Doot Doot Dee, that's a big tune in the car. How does it go again? Don't worry, I've done a nice try. Oogie Oogie Doot Doot Dee. Ba Ba Ba Beep Beep, you'll see. It's a beautiful show actually, it's about a little boy who has a little brother and

I'm pretty sure that they actually recorded, they've kind of made sense of the babies like ramblings and they kind of made this whole world out of like what seemingly disconnected which is quite beautiful. Did you ever listen to Baby Shark? Of course. Thanks to the nursery actually and I'll never forgive them for that because we didn't give it to them but they came back one day just being like do do do do do baby shark and how can you say no to those eyes i didn't even know about baby shark because my kids were by that time too old for it i think yeah and so it totally passed me by and i only found out about it when i was listening to a podcast of survival stories. And there was some guy who'd been mauled by a bear

and his whole face had been ripped off. I'm laughing because it was so horrific. It's not funny to be mauled and have your face ripped off by a bear. I suppose the hopeful part is that he survived this guy. And his face has kind of been more or less sewn back together and he's able to talk about it and have a sense of humor about it.

But while he was sitting there under a tree looking around after this bear had attacked him and the bear went away and then came back like the Revenant but it was like the Revenant which is the scariest yeah and he this guy was looking around through the blood that was pouring down his face and at one point he describes seeing his nose, a little way over and, you know, bits of his ear and stuff like that. I'm thinking, ah, that's my nose.

And he knew he had to kind of not pass out and stay awake. Yeah. And so he started listening to baby shark. Yeah. Baby shark saved his life. Sort of. Yeah.

Cause his daughter was into baby shark so it was there on his phone so he listened to baby shark over and over to keep him conscious and then he managed to get down there and down the mountain he was hiking out in maybe Canada no way and he was able to get back to his car drive drive to a house, go out and ring the bell of the house. And like a kid answered the door and just screamed. Like what the fuck?

Because it was in a bad way. That's, it's actually such a beautiful story because the main part of it is like, obviously the connection between him and his daughter, you know, that it's like immediate like repetition of like, cause I have those in the car with my son, like finite little sections of songs where I've looked to him and he's been like eyes closed or belting something out and they're so, they're like little capsules that whenever I listen to the song, I'm like there, you know, like

he's right by my side. Maybe that's what's happening for him. Because there's no other way that you could, you know, there's no other way that you're handling that than by being like so lifted by that, you know? Well the musical connection is a very powerful magical thing, isn't it? True, yeah, true, true. I feel very lucky because, you know, like I try and play loads of instruments but I'm not very good and so like to be around musicians, like real ones, ones that are like at a high level, for me is like, I feel very privileged because I'm around ones that are like at a high level for me is like, I feel very privileged because I'm around it a lot but like a few times I was, the first time I was in a studio with Sanfa and he started playing on the piano and singing

at the same time, that was like, yeah, you know, again makes me want to cry. I was just like, I felt so lucky to watch it happen you know it was like watching like a volcano erupt or you know like things that you just you shouldn't ever get to see or like a whale coming out of the ocean you know like just those things where you're seeing something doing what it's meant to do and it's really rare you know but yeah that it's happened a few times happened with a guy called Nick Hakeem on this album. He was like kind of reluctant to sing and it's so beautiful, his voice,

he doesn't want to use it much and we're kind of these goofy guys from London that are trying to coax this amazing thing out of him. And then he just stood up, I'd written it and sung it and then on a song called Don't Fix It and then he got up and just started started singing in the corner like hunched over the mic we couldn't see his face but just like yeah again yeah I think for me I think singing is a big one for me when I because I can't really do it like when I watch people in all things when I watch someone do the thing that they are meant to do you know not necessarily that they want to do but like the thing that they're like unquestionable like they're just like so incredible at it. I just can't help but like wanna cry, you know?

And feel so lucky to be on that patch of land with them. I do know, yeah. Watching people do things really well is very emotional, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I do remember my dad saying that, watching Torville and Dean, you know, the ice skaters. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right, right. And I remember when it was, watching Torville and Dean, you know, the ice skaters. Wow, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, right, right.

And I remember when it was all about Torville and Dean and they were doing Bolero and this early 80s, I guess. And I remember my dad just getting quite emotional in a way that I did not expect him to. Wow. It was not all about ice skating. He was just like, wow, look at them, they're in the zone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And seeing someone love something, you know, like, or even if they

don't and they're challenged by it, but you know, like watching someone who's been able to achieve a thing that they, you know, they, they set out to do that's not easy. You know, like, I feel like it when I watch football all the time, like just the poetry and motion of someone who's like, because what you're seeing, you're getting a glimpse into like the best bit, you know, like that piece of magic and that's like in combination of like However, many hundreds of thousands of hours of getting it wrong falling hurting injury Etc, you know like ice skating slipping cutting your fingers, whatever all just for that little finite moment where You would like achieve, you know like that whatever flow whatever flow state or, you know, where someone's just

enjoying something. And it's so intoxicating to watch that, you know, to watch someone enjoy themselves. That's what that like, like I was saying before, that's what I really want for my kids is just to like, watch them enjoy something so much so you know that like, it means that they do it really well, you know. Do you enjoy yourself on stage or are you concentrating on just not fucking up? Depends. Yeah, no, I think I do. I've actually been on set recently like making a TV show Oh, yeah, what are you doing? Can you talk about working with this working with this director called Charlie Reagan who did a film called scrapper and

I'm a big fan of her and now like now we're friends and I'm a big fan of hers and now we're friends and I feel like that to me has been it reminded me of when I first you know and even on it maybe this album is probably the closest I've got to it in a while but like you know when you first start doing something and you're doing it for the first time and when I was young when I started making music playing those first shows I felt so alive but I didn't know that like that's like a special thing I was like wow this is I can't believe I'm doing this thing and I'm going to just be alive always, you know, to be like 30 and to step on set and be petrified, but also so fulfilled and challenged and like respected, you know, and pushed like to feel so alive, but also have a little bit of perspective

to go like, fucking hell, this is like, I might never feel like this again on this, you know, so like you're live, you're living it right now. You're living that thing that people dream about living, you know? And to be able to feel it and then not acknowledge the feeling without getting in your own way was like a mad thing. So that to me was like the closest memory I have at the moment of like doing something and going like, yeah, I love this. You know, I love it. You seem like you live life on a real intense emotional pitch. Today you caught me on a crazy day because I'm really there. I really am.

That's good. I feel I mean, I feel that coming through and it's it's really nice. You know, I relate to that. I feel like that myself sometimes. Sometimes it annoys me that I do get emotional. I feel like it would be nice just to cruise through on a little bit. Like I wish there was a bit more, uh, flattening out sometimes, you know, and sometimes my friends who take, um, medication for depression and the

way they, the way they describe the flattening out of their life, which sometimes is bad, but now I understand in the modern pharmacological world, they've got better at fine tuning those medicines so that you do, everything just feels a bit less all over the place and a bit more manageable. Have you, you've never taken anti-depression medication? No, no, no.

I used to take them, it scares me a lot that like, cause I'm on the like, you know, I really feel the high and I really feel the low. And I kind of love that, the feeling of being, because it makes me feel alive. I feel more worried when I feel numb, because I've felt like that before. And so the times when I feel, when it's when I'm really at the edge of the tears and I don't know if they're happy or sad, but I'm just feeling them anyways, it's like, this is my best days.

It will be a little bit embarrassing but I did used to take um ADHD medication like Equisyn, Concerto, Ritalin like those kind of things when I was a kid um which is like I guess effectively speed you know uh is it yeah basically you would think you want the opposite true but what is fascinating actually like a lot of things that like are supposed to stimulate like you know my brain I brain, I have ADHD, neurodiverse, the neurodiversity. But you know, there's like synapses in your brain, you're like going from, you're basically going from thought to thought, right? But like the gap is just a little bit too big in my brain, or like Instead of having like one, like a single-minded thought, I go, I'm gonna do this, and my brain goes, cool,

You're telling yourself to do this We've received it We're gonna go do this before it gets a chance to like land it splits into four eight twelve sixteen so I go upstairs being like I'm gonna go get my socks and then I see my notebook and then I start writing in it and then I'd Look down and see my shoes and go Oh, yeah I should put those away and then an hour will pass and before I know I'll be outside like cleaning the car or talking About this when really I was trying to answer your question. Basically it zeros you in in so you can be singular. In a way that's useful if you're working in

a job that's in the society that we live in, in the metropolis but it's not really like for how we were, to my mind, like how we were intended to be. But yeah, so I used to take them, would have no appetite all day, wouldn't eat, would do all my work, but was just like, not funny. I mean, I'm not funny at the best of times, but I really was not funny at all, not creative. And I come back at about seven o'clock, like I get home at four or five,

and then by about seven they'd wear off, and I'd be starving, and I have all these jokes I wanna tell, you know? Like I just, I would come back, and I guess what I learned through that was like, ADHD was not so much like a thing to get rid of Because when I got rid of it, I was like getting rid of like of me, you know It wasn't like it was like a separate piece, you know, like people talk about no, you know any neurodiversity

Autism ADHD OCD all these things right, but actually they are you right? And so yes, you get some benefit from losing the bad bits and then but you also lose all of the positive But yeah, I took those then I'd like firmly not taking them anymore and And so do you have strategies do you need to have strategies for managing it sure for sure I think the main main ones is like that like therapy like cognitive behavioral therapy I do CBT which I find like quite profound. And I have done for like 10 years now, I've been seeing the same lady, which is fucking crazy since my dad died. And that I think, you know, of like, almost like treating it like the gym for my brain, you know what I mean? Like going and the repetition

of it and the consistency and the willingness to push through things that are really scary and hard, you know, I've got better at it I think since I had kids but that's like my number one and then the other ones are harder to get as a parent but like eating well and sleep and it's the therapy for me though is like that's the thing that like I'm just like learning like basically like the acceptance of myself you know like talking to myself like I'm not a dickhead basically you know that she like I'm a person who's trying hard, you know, that I'd say is the main one.

Yeah. Is there a strategy you got from cognitive behavioral therapy that was a real game changer that you just thought, Whoa, hang on, this is a hallelujah. Yeah, I mean, like all the time, but I mean, just like the self talk, you know, like understanding to kind of be a little bit less like, I'm trying to find a way of articulating it simply because it feels so convoluted to kind of be in acceptance of your thoughts you know to be able to like to understand that you're almost like if

your thoughts are clouds then you are the sky you know you are not your thoughts you know what I mean and that you have to allow them to pass like clouds do in the sky, you know, like, there's no point zeroing in on one and going, I'm defined by that, because the sky is not defined by a cloud, you know? The sky is the sky, so, yeah, to me, like, I think that was a big thing, and learning that like,

when I'm feeling anxious, when I'm feeling guilty, ashamed, or even if these feelings don't have merit, and they're kind of being conjured up through false fear or anxiety or whatever to accept them and to accept that I thought that I'm not going to go this is going to ruin my day I can't be feeling anxious right now because I'm supposed to be on stage at Glastonbury or I'm supposed to be talking with you or whatever and as I talk about it I feel it coming into my belly I always feel like a real like guilt in the pit of my stomach and like to like accept that and go anyways. Like that

even with this happening right now it's not a threat to my like current happiness or to my relationships or to myself or you know it's just it's just a part of my day. Yeah that is such a valuable insight isn't it because you know when you first read Descartes saying, I think therefore I am, and that's part of a sense you have as a human being that you are your thoughts that human beings are defined by the way they think and, and the fact that they think and that they can articulate their thoughts. And so the idea that you can actually separate yourself from that and that it is useful to separate yourself sometimes.

That you can choose, you know, that you can go like, this one is important to me, I like that one, I'm going to run with that. And the ones you don't like to go like, to not put so much pressure on to be like, I don't like that, can't ever think that again, but to go, oh, there goes one I don't like, you know, and to let that one go and that's fine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What a nice thing to be able to do that to kind of go like to, to pick and choose. So, I'm going to's the name of the album. Yeah, yeah, hopefully yeah hopefully and it happens to be the name of my daughter as well. Yes of course. Well, yeah. I didn't even twig that you know but there is such a really after the fact really wish I'd not wish

I'm glad I'm happy with my daughter's name but I I did think Hope is such a beautiful name right? It was it came about in a really small way that when we were in the studio we were making music, and music making is really awkward sometimes, or all the time, because there's loads of people with all this energy and a want to make something, but they're not making anything. You know, they're just like kind of thinking about making something, or talking about making it,

and everyone always kind of says to me, in my sessions, because I'm like, whatever, you know, like trying to lead it to my taste, but like, what does it feel like? You know, like, what do you want it to sound like? Whatever. I just find that like the worst question ever, because I don't know if I knew I'd have made it already, you know, or I'd be like trying to explain it. But it became really apparent as we started talking, everyone just kept being like, oh,

we play something causing the guitar, some break on the drums or whatever. And someone be like, I'm so hopeful, you know, and it was like a thing of if Today was bad tomorrow can be better, you know, not like a Happiness or a sadness but like that kind of intersection between the two and I think that's what kids give to you You know like the heaviness of my day or my life or the adult experience matched with like this complete like like innocent feeling everything highs and lows but always like this like if I watch my daughter all the time she gets like she'll be trying to like do

something for a whole day and she'll just fail over and over and over and over and over. How old is she now? She's one and a bit, like 14 months. Like she was trying to climb on a little chair and she small smack, like full smack her head. I pick her up, take her to the other room and then like she'll just get straight off my lap and walk back to the chair and climb and do it again over and over. And it's like that belief that like I can't do it now, but I can, I will do it. Or like it's bad now, but I, it will be better, you know? And that is something that like,

for me, I needed, which is why I made it because I loved feeling like that. And it had been a long time since I'd felt like that, you know, so it was like to print it onto wax and be like, even if I never feel like it again, you know, for my kids to go like, well, when dad was like 30, there was like a small pocket where he was just like, only hopeful. There was like a small pocket where he was just like only hopeful. Yeah, I mean, that was one of my dad's favorite virtues. I guess that's why I called my daughter hope. Even though he himself could be very pessimistic and downbeat. I think he was also tortured by the idea that it might be a sort of form of self-delusion. You know, you have, you've got some of those downbeat philosophers like Nietzsche or whatever who'll tell you that actually it's just a form of denial and delusion and it's better to come to terms with how crappy the world is.

I just think it's like, you know, how I find out the time we have and, you know, what we do with it that like, cause a lot of people, you know, say to me always it's like delusional to be hopeful right and I think for sure probably but like it works out a lot better if I approach the same when I approach a situation and go probably gonna fuck this up I always always fuck it up yes but if I approach it going like don't I feel like I could kind of

smash this sometimes I fuck it up and go no way I really thought I was gonna smash it or more often than not you do better because you're kind of going into it, going like, kind of, there's something there. I've got a bit of, you know, that's how guys win champions, league final or whatever. Cause there's, there's no way, especially with sport, that it's not down to luck, but that little extra feeling of belief, you know, like in Harry Potter when I'm, I don't know if you've seen Harry Potter, but there's this thing called liquid

luck they have, which I always was so interested in as a kid. It's like a little vial with luck in it. Drink it and you get luck, right? And so he says to his friend, like, I've given it to you. And then instantly his friend, Ron Weasley, is like, I'm going to, he's going to play like a Quidditch match. And he goes out to play this match and, like, he's like, unbelievable, plays the best game of his life. And then at the end Harry Potter's like, like, I didn't actually give it to you. And it's true though, because as soon as you think something is on your side, you're on your side, you know? And I think that's the thing that people miss

is like the hope is not so much the universe aligning or whatever, but it's just those little bits where you would give up. You kind of go, no, I'll just ask, I'll have two more tries, you know, or I'll stay here for 10 more minutes and maybe a fish will come or whatever. You know, exactly. And the fact is that you can kind of make your own luck.

You are the author of your luckiness. And that's the thing I could never get my head around as a kid. And my dad would say things like that to me. And I'd be like, what are you on about? You can't make luck. Luck is something that happens to you. That's'd be like, what are you on about? You can't make luck. Luck is something that happens to you. That's the definition of luck. But you can, because you can put yourself in the right head space. You can make yourself available to good fortune.

You're never going to be lucky just sat in a flat all day. That's the point of the kind of positive philosophy as opposed to closing yourself down from everything. I always think of John Lennon saying that he went to the Indica Gallery to see an exhibition by Yoko Ono and she had a piece with a stepladder and a magnifying glass and you would go to the top of the stepladder and she had written something on the ceiling in tiny letters and you would stand on the top of the stepladder and look with a magnifying glass at what she'd written and she'd just written

yes. And John Lennon said if she'd written no, he would have left the gallery and that would have been it. He wouldn't have got it together. But he just at that moment, I mean, it's sort of trite, I guess, isn't it? But at the same time, that always spoke to me and I just thought, yeah, I mean, you're either someone who's going to go up and go, it says, yes, how lame? Yeah, you're going to go? Yes, here we go. Come on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think you're right. I think you what do you lose by approaching it like that? You know, like, all of my like, the people I know that are negative, or like, like pessimistic or whatever, and say, that's the way to be. It's not working out. Do you know what I mean? It's not like I go, fuck,

your life is so much better because you think everything's shit. Do you know what I mean? And I think in honestly, like in a sad way, a lot of them like, don't know how. And actually are envious of hope. I know I have been in times when I haven't had it, you know? And like I think it's true of a lot of people, people who kind of like aligned to a form of like pessimism in a way, you're kind of like, it's a lot easier, isn't it? You know, to be like, God, this sucks. You know, I mean, they're often the ones that want things to work out most of all. Exactly. Exactly. And it may be too afraid because, you know, in a way it's like you're scared of wanting something and not getting it. Yeah. But the thing that's scarier to me is like, not wanting anything, you know, or not believing you could get anything because then you're not going to get anything ever But the thing that's scarier to me is like not wanting anything, you know, or not believing

you could get anything because then you're not going to get anything ever. That's the scarier thing to me is to not want any, you know, to like expect nothing to work out because even like sometimes the best part of it like isn't the moment where it happens, but it's like in bed the night before and you're kind of picturing it happening and living in it or you know, like just the little dreams that you have of things that you want to happen that might never happen maybe it'll work out and even if it never does like just the fun of that 30 minutes you know before I fall asleep is kind of enough you know. That's true.

I still remember fondly the fantasies I had that Tom Hanks and I would become best friends on the podcast. Yeah right. It wasn't to be. Never were though. But that was still a happy time. Yeah, right. It wasn't to be. That was still a happy time. Yeah. But you know, I mean, almost sometimes it's better. Yeah. Because you could have become friends with really good friends with him and then he could have like, you know, asked you for a kid and you're so crazy. I would have given it to you just

for, you know, cast away. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Yeah captain Phillips captain Phillips I haven't seen that for a while. I'm the captain now Apparently they never met those two guys until until that scene they kept them separate So when he says I'm the captain is the first time he's being like, this is my fucking movie, right? Tom Hanks Brilliant. Is that your favorite Tom Hanks film? I don't know, it's the one I remember the most I think. Because it was like visceral and also the guy the guy cast as the pirate, I thought he was brilliant.

You know, this is amazing. I thought he was fucking amazing. And it didn't feel like they were, it felt like a film where you know, usually the bad guy is usually someone, you know, I don't really believe in minority because like it depends where you are in the world, who's the minority. But like from a western gaze, an ethnic minority because like it depends where you are in the world who's the minority right but like from a western gaze an ethnic minority like there's always so much stereotype

and there's no nuance to why they're going through what they're going through and I love that like at least you kind of are like because I was basically watching it going I hope I hope they do get away you know like I hope they get it all get out I hope no one dies but I hope that he like sails off into the sunset with like this little submarine and makes loads of cash. The Somali guys? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I kind of wanted it to work out for everyone, you know. I watched it a long time ago though, so maybe I'm remembering it badly. So if you're listening and I'm coming across like a fucking ticket, then I'm sorry. You love terrorists. There you go. That's the bite. I know it was coming. No, but I know exactly what you mean. At first you were sort of, yeah, you were really willing

them to like... I think you just understand. Yeah. In a way, like I said, they have nothing and you never get to see the people who have nothing, have nothing. You just see them being bad. Bad people are bad because, well, they're not even bad, but people do good or bad things depending on where they're at you know if you got absolutely fuck all and you see a big ship going past every day that has everything surely you're gonna go get some of it plus tom hanks is the captain tom hanks is the captain and he's like a lovely guy who's kind of got like a bit of a smackable face you're thinking

you know i'll just i'll just whatever i'll take your stuff i spoke to a guy called Michael Scott Moore on this podcast and he wrote a book about being captured by Somali pirates. And he was the person who introduced me, I think, to the concept of not trusting hope because he was, he was their prisoner for several years. And he reached a point where he thought actually it's going to do me more harm to carry on being hopeful. Wow. Just to, you know, just for the sake of self-preservation to get through his days, it was beginning to torture him to be hopeful. And he needed to make peace with the idea that he might never be freed. Isn't in a way, is that not like kind of, I don't know, maybe think about Nelson Mandela

obviously you know, like in a cell and like being so stripped from everything and still maintaining this like love of self or hope, you know, hope of release. But I wonder if even in that, even by obviously not being hopeful that you'll be released, but there is like a hope in a separate way, Maybe I'm clutching a little bit, but like, of like trusting yourself that like actually to go, this will make me feel better. Do you know what I mean? Like if I'm a bit more realistic about this, I'm going to feel better about this than if I feel hopeful, which is kind of hope because you're kind of hoping that this will make you feel better. Do you know what I mean? In a way, like there's still this kind of thing where you might not like the hope as a literal

theme is maybe gone, but the hope of like, God, I feel bad now. And if I do this for a couple of weeks, maybe this whole ship thing will actually be a breeze. Well, that's a very positive view of humanity, isn't it? Just the fact that the fundamental urge to make the best of a situation or to survive? Yeah, is in itself a form of a hopeful act I think so because to be too like because he could have killed himself You know, I mean, maybe I don't you know I mean like to be to do something to make your time on the planet more palatable to me is hopeful because you're going

It's worth being here. You know, it wasn't like this is so bad that I'd you know I'm a I don't know sure like I'm collecting but that let's talk about this after we've been captured by terrorists and see how that works out but anyway I think it's when I saw the title of your album I thought yes yes, yes please, that's what I want. I don't want a big slice of nihilism, thank you very much. Wait. This is an advert for Squarespace. Everyone would like to have a website, yes! But not everyone can build their own.

No. But they can come right here to Squarespace, where they can start a free trial and play with all the templates. Type in a paragraph, pop in a pic, stick a video in there as well. Don't be a Wally. Oh my golly, there's so many things that you can do. It's fun and easy too when you are working with Squarespace. Can I check my analytics? Of course you flipping do. It's fun and easy too when you are working with Squarespace.

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Hey, welcome back, Podcats. That was Loyal Kana, although now I think of him more as Ben. I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did. And his album is great, the new album, I loved it, it's got some definite indie rock vibes, reminded me a bit of King Cruel sometimes, that same slightly woozy hot afternoon dreamlike atmosphere, which I think Loyal Kana does so well. I might even go so far as to say it's better than my single Pizza Time, which I think loyal carna does so well. I might even go so far as to say it's better than my single, Pizza Time, which came out last week of course. Thank you very much by the way if you have been listening to Pizza Time. Every stream takes me one step closer

to playing on Graham Norton. Anyway, thanks if you listen to it. And also if you pre-ordered my album Buckle Up out on the 12th of September I sent out a newsletter last week about it. And if you aren't signed up for the newsletter and would like to be, I mean I say the newsletter as if it comes out regularly, well there's been two this year which is unusual. I don't send out too many of those things, but I guess this is an unusual year for me. I've got more um stuff plopping out than I would normally. Anyway if you'd like to receive any further newsletters about upcoming shows and that sort of thing then go to my website adam-buckston.co.uk there's a link in the description and if you

scroll down on the home page you'll find somewhere where you can sign up for the newsletter if you wish. Oh look it's Technobird Oh look, it's Technobird. Hopping above the field. I talked about Technobird on the podcast I did recently with Russell Howard, which I think is out now. Five brilliant things, one of which was the Skylark. That was fun. And I think the Harry Hill podcast is also out.

A lot of buckles maybe too much. Next weekend as well I'm going to be on Virgin Radio filling in for lovely Tom Allen the comedian friend of the podcast that was a nice episode I did with Tom back in the lockdown. Anyway he's taking a break for a couple of weeks so I'm covering one of his shows on Sunday the 8th of June, between 10 and 1 on Virgin Radio. And I think Joe Cornish is gonna come along

and be my guest for an hour or two. I imagine there'll be some book talk and other nonsense. Hope you can join me for that. Thank you very much indeed if you came out to the Hay Festival last week. Over in Wales I was on stage with Samira Ahmed and we had a good talk about the book while the wind raged outside. It was very stormy that day, and I couldn't figure out if the audience could actually hear anything. The lighting rig was swinging around in

front of the stage. It was fairly apocalyptic, but fun! And afterwards I signed books for an hour. Thanks for coming. Loyal Karna though, there's lots of links for Loyal in the description of today's podcast. You've got more info on the album plus tour dates. There's the video for his recent single About Time. There's that Otolengi video, It's a Peach. There's the Baby Jake song, Do Do Dee. There's Baby Shark of course in case like me you somehow managed to miss that phenomenon. Look at Techno Bird swooping down there over the field it's got something yummy. There's also a link to that clip of John Waters, adults need

to stop blaming their parents. It's only a short clip. And as well as a link to the Baby Shark video, there's a link to the podcast I mentioned, which is on BBC Sounds, Real Survival Stories, Grizzly Bear Attack. It's pretty epic, but it is grizzly in every conceivable sense of the word. So be warned.

Alright, that's it for this week. I've got to get back to signing books. Thank you to Seamus Murphy-Mitchell for his invaluable production support. Thank you so much Seamus. Thanks to Helen Green for her beautiful artwork. Thanks to everyone at A-Cast for all their help liaising with my sponsors, but thanks particularly to you For listening to the single for buying the book for coming to the shows

I don't know maybe not all of you did those things. That's okay Because you listened right to the end And I'm very grateful Which is why I think it's time we had a creepy hug. Come here, hey. Great to see you. Alright, go carefully out there and until next time, please bear in mind for what it's worth. I love you.

Byeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee I love you. Bye! Like and subscribe. Like and subscribe. Like and subscribe. Please like and subscribe. Give me like a smile and a thumbs up. I stick a pant where me bum's up. Give me like a smile and a thumbs up. I stick a pant when me bum's up

Like and subscribe Like and subscribe Like and subscribe Please like and subscribe Give me like a smile and a thumbs up Nice like a pant when me bum's up Give me like a smile and a thumbs up Nice like a pant when me bum's up Subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, I'm going to be a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a

little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a Thanks for watching!