THE ADAM BUXTON PODCAST - EP.257 - BENEDICT CUMBERBATCH

Episode Date: September 8, 2025

Adam talks with English actor Benedict Cumberbatch about his new film The Roses, as well as appearing on SNL, the challenge of balancing a successful career with married life and young children, whether couples therapy works, why actors lose their shit on film sets and whether Adam should retire the Christian Bale on set meltdown jingle. Conversation recorded face-to-face in London on 12 June 2025 Thanks to Séamus Murphy-Mitchell for additional editingPodcast illustration by Helen GreenPre-order Adam's album BUCKLE UP with limited signed artworkOrder Adam's book 'I Love You Byeee' EXCLUSIVE NORD VPN DEALTry it risk-free now with a 30-day money-back guarantee!TALK 90s TO ME (Miranda Sawyer podcast on Podfollow)UNCOMMON PEOPLE by Miranda Sawyer - 2025 (WATERSTONES)WHAT HAPPENED TO COUNTER-CULTURE? Presented by Stewart Lee - 2025 (BBC SOUNDS)Comedian Stewart Lee presents a five-part series exploring the evolution and key ideas that have driven counter-culture from its beginnings with the Beats, folk and jazz in the 1950s, to its heights in the 1960s and 70s including the hippies and the early tech-communalists, the new liberation movements and punk, to the 1980s and early 90s, where political power on both sides of the Atlantic pushed back against the values of the ‘permissive society’.MORE LINKS (ON ADAM'S WEBSITE) Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I added one more podcast to the giant podcast bin Now you have plucked that podcast out and started listening I took my microphone and found some human folk Then I recorded all the noises while we spoke My name is Adam Buxton I'm a man I want you to enjoy this that's the plan Hey, how you doing, Podcats? It's Adam Buxton here. Reporting to you from a crunchy Norfolk farm track at the end of the first week of September 2025. It's a beautiful balmy afternoon out here in East Angular. And I'm walking with my best dog friend, Rose. Say hello, Rosie.

with breath this week. She's in quite a good mood today. Didn't seem overly resistant to the idea of a walk, and why would she? It's a lovely afternoon. I'm glad to say that in the last few weeks, the quivering in the flanks that used to set in at the mere mention of a walk has subsided,

and Rosie just seems altogether a bit more chill, which is nice. So that's Rosie News. She's doing well, aren't you dog legs? Please don't patronise me. I apologize. Oh, this nice warm breeze I'm getting here. I'm wearing shorts.

Now, look, before I tell you a bit about my guest for this week's conversational ramble, I would like to give a shout out for a future guest. I'm going to be talking to Eric Idol of Monty Python, who, apart from everything he's achieved in TV and film and the theatre, is, of course, one of the all-time great writers of funny songs. that you actually want to listen to more than once. There's the Galaxy song, the Philosopher's Song, the Penus Song, and of course, always look on the bright side of life,

which gives its name to Eric's forthcoming live tour of the UK, kicking off in Birmingham on the 10th of September, and then heading to Brighton, Liverpool, Manchester, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Bournemouth, ending up in London on the 27th of September. 2025. You can expect, according to the poster, an evening of comedy, music, philosophy, and one fart joke. Eric was on great form when I spoke to him a couple of months ago, so grab a ticket now at ericidal.com or via bookingsdirect.com. Okay, now let me tell you a bit about podcast number 257, which features a rambling conversation with English actor Benedict Timothy Carlton Cumberbatch.

Here's a very cursory selection of Cumberfax for you. Born in 1976, that's the year the Queen pulled down her nix, as we all know. I won't tell you what she did next. It was pretty shocking. Benedict is the son of successful theatre

and TV actors, Wanda Ventham and Timothy Carlton. He was sent to boarding school at a young age like me, although we didn't talk about that. For a change? After studying, drama in Manchester and getting his M.A. in classical acting at Lambda, the London Academy of

Music and Dramatic Art, Benedict spent the latter half of the 2000s, becoming increasingly celebrated for his theatre work. But the role that brought him into the wider public consciousness and kept him occupied for much of the 2010s was as the brilliant but abrasive detective Sherlock Holmes. In the BBC series, Sherlock, created by Stephen Moffat and Mark Gaitis, the huge success. of that portrayal, no doubt, contributed to his award of a CBE in 2015 for services to the performing arts and to charity. But by then, he had also appeared in films, including Starter for Ten, Atonement, the 2011 adaptation of Tinker Taylor Soldier Spy, and Stephen Spielberg's War Horse. His first Oscar nomination was for playing computer scientist and cryptologist

Alan Turing in 2014's The Imitation Game, and he was nominated again in 2021 for his portrayal of a charismatic but cruel rancher in 1920s Montana in Jane Campion's adaptation of Thomas Savage's novel, The Power of the Dog. And of course, you know Benedict as Dr Stephen Strange in one of my favorite Marvel movies, Dr. Strange. More recently, Benedict appeared in the film adaptation of Max Porter's novella, Grief is the Thing with Feathers, which blends fantasy and horror elements in a story about a father losing his wife.

The film is the dramatic debut of British director Dylan Southern, who has previously directed excellent music docs about blur LCD sound system and the New York City music scene of the early 2000s. That was called Meet Me in the Barthroom. I really enjoyed that.

The Thing with Feathers, though, is due for release in the UK at the end of October this year. My conversation with Benedict took place a few weeks ago in late June, in a big room, in a fancy hotel down the road from Trafalgar Square in central London, where Benedict was doing several days of interviews to promote the roses, just released, as I speak, in UK cinemas, a twisted comedy drama in which a married couple's relationship implodes crazily

following the sudden realignment of their parental and professional roles. The film is directed by Jay Roach, the helmsman of Meet the Parents and Austin Powers. And the screenplay is by Tony McNamara. He wrote The Favorite and Poor Things, directed by Jorgos Lantemos. The Roses is based on the 1981 book, The War of the Roses, by American author Warren Adler.

That was previously adapted in 1989, by Danny DeVito, who cast Kathleen Turner and Michael Douglas in the central roles. In this reimagining Benedict stars as architect Theo Rose, alongside Olivia Coleman. She plays Theo's wife, Ivy Rose, who, at the midpoint in her life, suddenly finds professional success as a chef. Theo and Ivy's friends, couples who are dysfunctional in their own ways, are played by S&L stars, Kate McKinnon and Andy Samburg. as well as the excellent Zoe Chow and one of my comedy heroes, Jamie Demetriu. Elsewhere, the cast includes Alison Janie Sunita Mani and Dr. Hu star in Kuti Gatwa. Before meeting Benedict, I had received an email from the film company

that, as is often the case with promotional interviews, made it clear that questions should pertain to the film and should not be of a personal nature, or in reference to gossip, politics or other projects. Nevertheless, Benedict gave me a bit of latitude, and also, as well as the roses, we talked about his appearances on Saturday Night Live, the challenge of balancing a successful career with married life and young children, where the couples therapy works, why actors lose their shit on film sets, and whether I should retire my Christian Bale-on-set meltdown jingle. But we began by talking about Benedict's 2021 appearance on Mark Marron's podcast, WTF, on which they had discussed the power of the dog, which at the time had just been released. And things at one point got a little bit tense, only a tiny bit, though, because of comments that Benedict's co-star Jesse Plemons had made about the character that Benedict played. Well, we actors get very protective of our characters, don't we?

dog legs. I wouldn't know. Yes, you would, because I love you. I love you, dog legs. Anyway, I'll be back at the end with a couple of recommendations for you, but right now with Benedict Cumberbatch. Here we go. Rumble chat, let's have a ramble chat. We'll focus first on this, then concentrate on that. Come on, let's chew the fat, and have a ramble chat. A session coat and find your talking hat. Yes. Yeah.

it was right i mean i knew him and i hadn't listened much to the podcast at the time and you know i knew him from his various great performances in various films anyway i ended up being quite competitive and i think we had a bit of a little bit you were talking about the year of the dog we were talking about some no that's the chinese thing uh we were talking about the power of the dog it was one one of the dog it was one of the big dog films yes how to train your dog um i i think um it was something either jesse had said about his character knowing something about my character. I think that was it actually and it was scarred deep. I can remember

it that quickly and I was immediately no no he can't say that and I just sort of turned into a thing and I was like why don't I just waste a bit of man classic time just kind of arguing a point that it was good it was good chat you weren't genuinely riled though were you or were you? No no no I think I just got a little bit on my higher horse

I do that sometimes with characters that I feel very affiliated with or processes or whatever and it's sort of like no you were in your own world doing that so someone else has also a world, this classic thing we do in life as well. It's just thinking, but it's all about my story

rather than understanding there has to be bridge building and other people's stories as well. So I think it was just a very immersive thing for me and I was quite protective of where I thought things were at. But guess what? Another act had a different idea. And it works.

It all works on screen. It's nice. It's nice to have a spicy, non-sanatized conversation. Yeah. I think there are two few of those. I agree, agree, agree. It's not just sort of slapping. platitudes it was it was there was some conversation there was some argument or dialogue at least yeah but

i do remember him being really witty and really funny and dry and thinking i've got to i've got to listen to more of these things i've just done sort of badly out of time but um he's good he's great how was s&l second time round second really enjoyable first time round mastermind plus a coffee enema and just you're naked in time square it's just so you're you're so exhausted because you do the records until someone's like I think I've wrapped up like three in the morning and then you're like you're ready to go at a sort of you know show time like a seven or eight o'clock kind of show time they go no we don't we'll start this shit until 11.30 at night and it's really really really exhausting so you kind of go in going I should be in bed you know and then you have this absurd amount of adrenaline as well it's a really horrible state to be in first time round second time around you just breathe a bit more you get a little I climateize myself to doing things later in the day you know and they knew me that some of the ones that were there last time I did it were there this time and wrote a little bit more around me and do you have techniques for because I can imagine that even you as someone who presumably has overcome many of your performance nerves and has all

sorts of techniques for doing so suddenly you find yourself in an unfamiliar environment like S&L no I'm just wondering how like what actual tech do you have actual techniques in those situations or are you just always styling it? I think the first time around you have to just, you have to learn experientially, but you just have to do it and it's always exciting when you have a new challenge in our world and it's rare. And so I kind of embrace that.

I'm kind of like, I like being a bit scared. Sometimes I think I like it too much than I actually do and then I get to actually doing it going, why am I putting myself and my body through this? Because it is a lot, it taxes you. Definitely if you gray or, missing hairs and then you kind of go okay i've kind of got this and then it becomes fun but yeah no i like the challenge i love the challenge of it and it's it's such an institution over there and i i've only

ever seen bits of it you know it's not something that we have broadcast life yet for obvious reasons but you know you catch it i think it's on comedy central now i think um well you get it the little bits of well most of the shows now are on youtube but it's not inherently part of our culture like it is over there it's a really big deal and it felt like a huge honor to be able to be able to are so I'm often flattered into doing things that are deeply uncomfortable because people tell me it's a huge honor and I get why sometimes sometimes not but I like to give it a go and I've always been a bit like that and it's not fearlessness it's sort of foolhardiness and wanting to be put in a place where I have to think outside of the usual pattern which is probably why I go

a bit crazy at the end of a press junket because it's just it's very very sort of groundhog dayish was that the first time speaking of S&L that you had met Kate McKinnon that was the first time yeah right and she was apparently a big fan of sherlock and i still find it difficult being around i'm so in awe of what she does yeah she's very funny so off the wall and but you can have an ordinary conversation not to dispel any okay show business but she's wonderful she's wonderful i still though get a bit nervous around her we're going to jump into the middle of the roses by discussing a moment with kate mckinan and then we'll pull focus and talk about the wider implications of the roses and what it's all about.

But there is a moment in that film. Listeners don't know how you just described all of that with your hands. And gesticulating. You would have landed at an aeroplane with those. I'm the Trump of podcasting with my hands. No, that would be just like this. Little gestures. Tiny gestures.

Yeah, how is your Trump impression? I think, like, everybody, it's okay, but it's not good. It's sad. It's sad. Is it? It's pathetic. It's pathetic. It's pathetic.

It's pathetic. It's very bad. Very bad. Very bad. Very bad. He's sad, this guy, British guy. Very disappointed. He's so everywhere that everyone, even people don't do impersonations have got something.

It's just, he's everywhere, isn't it? Yeah, it's just the thing. How about Eddie Redmayne? Can you do a good Redmayne? I could try. I don't know. Eddie, I feel bad about this because he's a friend of mine. Sure.

Have you seen him? He goes like this every now and again. Have you seen him in Jupiter Rising? No. Oh, that is a film and a half. I mean, I'm being sincere. That is a fun film to watch. Is that Wachowski's?

Yeah, yeah. It's completely unhinged. And his performance in it is quite a thing. He's fucking amazing. Have you seen The Good Nurse? No. It's a phenomenal performance and he is just, you know, he's a friend. We got set up as rivals during a year that we were both nominated for Oscars,

which we thought was hilarious because we're friends and because we both love each other's work and know each other and our wives of It's just nuts. It's silly. Yeah. And also all that stuff is silly. And clearly he was extraordinary. So how can I begrudge him? A friend who was exceptional.

Give it to him. Sure. I don't care. Go and watch Jupiter Rising and then come back to me. Okay. It's very good. It's an incredible performance from an extraordinary actor. I mean, he literally delivers his lines like this and he's completely mad.

So what was I saying before my, oh yes, Kate McKinnon. Yes. In the film, there is a scene in which her, character is sort of lusting after yours there's a motif well there's several scenes yeah she's she's a friend of of you and Olivia Coleman's character and she is lusting after you and at one point she hangs onto you and sort of frots for quite a while like really frotting away and we're seeing it from every angle and she's sort of quivering with orgasmic joy and I was thinking what was that like?

Did you have to have an intimacy coordinator? No, we fucking should have done now. My leg will never recover. No, it was extraordinary. I mean, the hardest thing with her is just not to laugh. And, you know, she was always apologising, usually afterwards, but she was also, I was aware that it was supposed to be a scene

where she hugs for an inappropriately long time. That's sort of the button of the moment. As it were. And then she did this sort of slow frot. That's the other thing about it. It was very slow, a slow grind with a quiver, an increasing quiver at the end. I mean, it was sort of sexy. It was very sexual.

But when we got to the dinner scene, which is a later moment in the one we're talking about, it's this extraordinary dinner table scene where the couple are really starting to throw some pretty awful, nasty, barbed, hurtful comments at each other. And their guests are trying to understand whether it's real or just ironic or funny. The guests are all American. And they're all American. And they try to have a go at it and it's really awful. It's just horrible sledded. It's a very funny scene.

But underneath it, there's this kind of core of us really destroying each other. At one point, Kate McKinner's character tries to empathise with Ivy, Olivia's character. And goes, I know just what you're feeling, babe, about her two children going to college too early, in her opinion. And she gives these examples. And there's only one obviously in the film, but it was just unbearable, partly because this great, great talent of comedy of our age. She'd start on a line of a new idea. And then she'd stop and start laughing at what was coming towards her. And that was it.

We're like, well, we're not going to last. If you, because she's very, she doesn't crack when she's in one. She just, she just does it. But my God, it was, it was a very fun day at work being right in the kind of. They're trying to do sort of Jesse Armstrong succession style British put down. Very good analogy actually. Well, Antonio McNamara as well. He's very good at it as well.

That's that Zoe, Zoe Chan and. Jamie Demetri, they're the couple who are trying it out, you know, the other architect. And Jamie can't, Jamie Dmitri's character can't really do it and is very hurt by the things that are thrown at him. And she's like, what does she say? She's sort of saying instead of mad. She says, cry like a bitch like you did when her. Doug died, asshole.

And she keeps going. He's just like, it sort of traumatizes everyone. And Andy Sandberg's going, what the fuck? And it's, and I'm looking at my wife going, this is the atmosphere that you help create, darling. Thanks so much. Yeah. It's a horrible but very, very funny scene.

So can you, I will set it up in the introduction, but can you tell me briefly what it's about? The film is about a couple who fall in love in a sort of very fast way. They're both disinheartened with England. They've reached sort of stalemates in their careers. They're childless. They're of an age. They think, well, let's just go to America.

And they kind of do, and you cut to 10 years later. They've got the two kids in the house and his work's going well. And she's still being brilliant at what you. she does as a chef but only at home he gets her prize uh the prize money he gives to her to start a restaurant so that she can wow the world instead of three two kids well three including an husband at home with these amazing kind of dessert creations and food of iconic status and his career is going great guns the thing you got an award for is opening and there's a disaster with the building that basically has him cancelled as an architect and he has to reorientate his life and does so around

his children and family and devotes himself to staying at home whilst her career just ascends and it's really the story of a couple who love each other very much but just start growing apart and the resentment that creeps in and the lack of communication or seeing each other or paying attention to one another slowly starts to corrode their love at certain points and then they come back together with humour and love and understanding and then it really gets pretty diabolical towards the end and it's based on the ward the roses right it's a it's a so called reimagining so it doesn't stick exactly to all the beats of that that Danny DeVito film?

No, not at all. And you've seen the DeVito film. Yes, yes. And it was sort of iconic. Everything they did in that era, I was enthralled by... 1989, I think it was. No, indeed. And was it but after romancing the Stone and Julian and then?

I think it was. Maybe. But those two just had me. Kathleen Turner and Michael Douglas. What a couple, you know. I remember seeing it at the time, so I would have been 19 or 20. I was a bit younger. What did you make of it?

Because I remember thinking, I don't know if I like this. was too much. Well, I don't think I was at a sensitive enough age. I thought, whoa, he's just, she just crushed his car. Not with an American accent. Yeah. It was peeing in the soup. It just seemed extraordinary.

And I remembered it being funny because I watched it before we made us. I was like, fucking hell. This is incredibly bleak. Yeah. And that final touch, admittedly brave filmmaking, I suppose, a bold choice where he reaches across for one moment of reconciliation as they're dying. Yeah. She brushes his hand away.

I don't find that funny. I find that really bleak. Yes. But some people find it funny. It's a bold choice. Right. I mean, it was definitely a kind of second wave feminist fantasy in some ways. It was like a woman being able to literally and metaphorically punch back at the kind of man who sort of feels superficially like, I'm a great guy and I'm a nice person to be married to.

But actually he was being a bit of an asshole. Total asshole. Like the Michael Douglas character. The tipping point I really spotted second time round now as a married man was when he was disparaging about her in front of his, I'm not saying, because I'm dispiried about my wife. I hope never like this, I either, but it's just, it's awful. It's like a, if I did that, you know, if anyone did that, I'd fucking hate them for it. It is, it is horrible. He just, he gets embarrassed about her at the dinner party with his colleagues that he's trying to show off to and impress.

Yeah. She's cooked it all for them and, you know, she says something. And it's just, that is when the cold drop of ice enters. her heart and it's horrible and I don't think they ever really fall back in love at any other point whereas with us I think we love each other till whatever end is the end yeah uh it is really bleak and he like he's just a total irredeemable twat I think he becomes that yeah and she has twatish elements to her and she one of the themes in the film is this kind of fascination with status and materialism that they both have yes which is also there to a degree in in your version it is

I think so, but somebody brought this up as like, you know, so much has changed. I mean, you know, we're so kind of screwed by ambition now. Hang on a minute. You're talking about a film Sowing Michael Degas who just played Gordon Gecko in, you know, Wall Street saying greed is good. I think materialism was very much born in the 80s in the way that we, you know, know, now.

It's masked in different ways now. It's a little bit more nefarious. You can have it all. Well, you can, but there are costs to having it all. Therefore, you can't have it all. It's true. You can't have it all. Of course you can have a good. You know, but you have to balance these things. you can't just go all for one

and think you can have the other two for free you know yes I do know what you mean and that seems to me like a massive segue to me asking you how you do it as well exactly as someone who is so busy and who works constantly and you have children

three boys yeah what sort of ages are they six eight and ten oh man so you're I mean that's a busy time and that is a time when you really do want to be around them And I am a lot. Yeah, yeah. I do a lot less now.

And when I do it, it's nearly always here. We have a two-week rule from when it's not here, but more than likely now, we're not a travelling circus like we were when they were very young. I come home and I'm doing less. And so that's it. That's what this part is. I'm not trying to make you defensive.

Am I being defensive? No, I'm joking. Oh, God, don't. Well, no, because I think it is constantly something you have. It's a checks and balance for all the time. I'm loving it. And I will constantly feel like I'm doing too much work or I'm too long at home. You just have to try and keep feeling out what's right and best for them and for you.

Yeah. Because I think work is part of who you are. Sure. I think that's a really important thing for children to realize as well. And to understand that you love what you do, which I'm very lucky to do. I realize that's also rare to breathe. And I want them to see that. I want them to see someone who loves what they do and understand why I love what I do.

but at the same time I want them to see me I don't want them just me going to work because I love it would that feel as a job so and I adore spending time with them it's you know it is harder definitely harder than work yeah yeah but it's the most rewarding thing

are you what kind of parent are you are you um a class top absolutely smashing it no of course I'm you know I'm fathoming it out as I go and challenged by it all all the time and there's no kind of I think I like the idea of a whole child like understanding them and understanding the separation of behavior from the person

understanding that a lot of what they are throwing out at any age is to do with stuff that they don't understand or that they're struggling with that's not actually to do with the you know fuck you i hated you hated you since i was born stuff is that what you say to your children when they miss babe i'll use that now i will you say so i mean the obvious thing would be to ask you about how you achieve that in your own life. You're an incredibly busy person and you want to maintain the cathedral of Cumberbatch and the world wants you to do so. But how is it possible to take your foot off the gas and just say,

actually, I'm going to say no to a lot of things. Presumably there's like a structure around you of people who really don't want you to say no to things as well. Yeah. And when they have your best interest, at heart sometimes you just have to keep reminding them of the same thing the school holidays the sacred dates the anniversaries the birthdays all those things that are not workable and it's understandable it's understandable it's not they don't have them it's like right but we we do have to show you that so-and-so is cool to would like to work with you on that you know but i you know it's a very

empowering thing saying no and it's also an empowering thing remembering that a career is a lifetime Whereas their childhood is actually the blink of an eye compared to that. So, you know, there's certain stuff that plays in my mind is going, well, I'm going to be out of a playing range if I say no to everything until their house leavers. Hopefully if that happens in the 20s these days, who knows? But it is the paramount thing that every choice is focused on, really. I mean, obviously the work itself has to be good enough to sacrifice any time away from home. Or let's say sacrifice, but like work it with home. And that's what's on. the page and who's directing and who else is acting and whether they're nice because I'm not that age. I kind of want to work with people who are actually. Of course. Yes. I think good work comes

of that as well because it's more trusting. You just, you can really throw it out there and not feel like if you do fail, it'll be a problem. You can just keep having fun with it. And yeah, going back to your question, it is, it's the central thing that shapes my choices. And it kind of maintained. I don't really go to algorithms. I've also got a few things. as in, you know, if, oh God, he didn't do that. Well, he's slid down the list of people. Now we're going to the people who are like him. Yeah, I was going to say, like, if you're good, then you're sorted.

One would hope. One would hope. So you could, in theory, just press pause for six years. And what are they going to do about it? They'll be very happy when you come back. I'm not sure. I'm not sure if I didn't work for six years is quite a long time. Sure, but I mean, what would happen, though?

Why couldn't you do that? Oh, God, you sound like Sophie. Your wife? Yes, my wife. I think It's part of who they have as a father and a husband And I think they all They go mad if I stayed at home

What would you be doing round the home Would you be building furniture? I'd probably be making movies out of our lives Or I would probably be building furniture No, I would go full DDL I think it's why not You know And every time you veer into that sort of thing

And I did a lot about the dog you know, I was like, okay, I've just done some taxidermy. I don't think I'm going to want to do too much. That's quite smelly and dirty for obvious reasons. But, you know, the ironmongery, not the feature in the film, but just living that kind of outdoor life or creative life where you're learning how to grow things and produce things and farm things. I could happily do that.

I could happily have a farm somewhere and disappear into that. I played a few artists in my time, and that is something I'd love to really sit down and get on with a musician or two. I haven't really played a musician. but I use music. I was going to ask if you played a musician and which musician would you play? Characters that play music.

So I played the banjo terribly empower the dog. What musician would I play? I would have loved to have played Bowie, but I'm too old. You can play late period, Bowie. He's got a story that goes right through until he's nearly 17. You're right, you're right. You're right. Very interesting part of his life.

Yeah. I mean, it's most important to get a blessing for that from the people that mattered most to him in his life. Yeah. I think unless that's a go, then it's not going to happen. And I'm, yeah, there was a project once, but I won't say too much about it. Okay. It didn't really happen because Duncan. No one's really nailed a good Bowie film yet, I don't think.

I don't want to express an opinion on that. I kind, I can, I kind of agree. I mean, it's so hard to do, is it? It's really hard. And I'm a huge Johnny Flynn fan. I thought he was pretty terrific, but it could have been a better film, but he's a talent. When your character in The Roses decides that he is going to become the, primary caregiver for the children while Olivia's character Ivy becomes a super chef.

One of the first scenes where we see him making that switch in a slightly manic way is with him running along, taking the children jogging. They're in their early teens. And he's like, I'm sick of seeing my wife shoveling sugary treats into the mouths of my children. I'm going to turn them into super athletes and I'm going to be Uber Dad. And you're running along, correct me if I'm wrong, are you listening to a podcast or are you talking in a... Yeah. That's why you should put the app. Yeah, no, I'm no, I'm not.

They're just very snappy looking glasses that look like they could probably have Google on them. But you're sort of ranting to yourself. And I'm just having a middle-aged breakdown. It's a proper midlife crisis moment or everything's turning on its head and I'm trying to talk myself positive basically. Right. Whilst ignoring the fact that my kids can hear everything I'm saying and I'm talking about, You don't want to be part of that. You don't want to be part of that toxic masculinity, jizzing in the face of humanity.

You know, he's taking himself apart and sort of doing a cultural appraisal along the way of the state of male masculinity in this moment. It sounded very podcast buzzword. Like, I've listened to a lot of podcasts where all those things are expressed. And I've felt those feelings myself as well. Like sometimes you come out of listening to those conversations and you are filled with a sense of being kind of lost and, like, oh my god what are my what function do I serve as a you know privileged you as the interview or me as me as the interviewer this is me I'm relating to the character at that moment yeah and having those thoughts as a you know privileged middle aged man yeah sort of overwhelmed by his position in society

and what it should be and what I should be doing as a father as a husband as all these things that I am mediocre at so often I think that the thing of it as well which we he doesn't see coming is what he thinks he's doing is screwing up the bit of paper that says be ambitious and throwing it away because it's toxic and awful and focusing on something more wholesome which is you know raising children but what he doesn't realize a little bit like an addict going from I don't know drugs to working out a lot

he's just going to then channel all that obsession into his children and and completely kind of vault fast on the direction they were going in which was this happy mediumish but more maybe mom influenced sort of, let's say, fair parenting, and he's going to be really rigid, give them a lot of structure, make them do a lot of exercise, and stop eating sugar. And they kind of get turned on by it. I mean, kids do like structure, so give them a structure, they'll kind of go with it. He doesn't realize in that moment of going, I'm going to be a better person by doing something

wholesome. He's actually doing something quite obsessive in the same way as, you know, architectural was his obsession. And in the process, driving a wedge between him and his wife, exactly, exactly. Because she, her relationship with her children is now compromised. She doesn't spend so much time with them. It breaks her heart when she realizes that. And he's communicating with them is food.

And he's kind of banned the kind of dessert fest so that a lot of that food was in their early childhood. By saying sugar's bad for you causes cancer, it's inflammatory. All true, by the way. All true. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. I don't have to say exactly what you had. Anyway. Couples therapy. The film starts with a scene of you having couples therapy. You and Olivia's character. And I mean couples therapy. I don't know if I would ever have couples therapy.

But apparently it's quite effective. I looked it up and I thought like surely it's not effective. Because I would think that if you went in and sat there and you aired your grievances about your partner, it would just be impossible to get any kind of meaningful, satisfying result from that. You know, wouldn't you just constantly? be carrying around resentments about each other and not really being honest and trying to settle scores in a way that it was no i don't i don't i think it shouldn't be about that it shouldn't be about scores i think i think once you get into a world of scarcity and going but you did this and i did

that and no what's fair what's not fair a good therapist i suppose holds you together and that's what a couple of therapists is supposed to do right they hold you in the conversation and i don't know maybe it's a safe place to air some of those grievances if that language becomes too inflammatory at home. Yeah, yeah. Or that problem becomes too inflammatory at home. Maybe that helps. I don't want to do a whole industry down. I mean, the film sort of satirizes it because they're such a

ridiculous couple at that moment. They don't just undermine the task by writing. They're supposed to write 10 things I love about you, you know, something good about the person. And, you know, Theo's list about her is really underwhelming and conditional. You know, I like the shape of her head at a distance.

Yeah. I remember her smelling. nice on occasion. I prefer being married to her than a wolf. I mean, it's not very good. And then she writes a list of things she hates about him, which is very Ivy, ending in a brilliant diatribe, which I think is probably in the ad, but I'll let Olivia say it, because it's funny when she says the C word. And I just, it's, it's their language between each other. And where it helps in that moment is that they realize what they haven't been doing. They haven't been speaking to each other. They've been speaking at each other. And there is a difference. You, you're or not it's it's been one-sided argument and not and then they laughed it they just the bridge

of it that is finding the other one amusing i mean i think he compliments as i preferred your list your list was best you know yeah kind of was i know well that's a strange mar and on many occasions lists and insults were often better yeah um but i you know it's a funny moment in the scene because you sort of think well if a couple are able to laugh at each other and with each other like that then they're sort of okay but i think the therapy is absolutely right all of it's very very toxic and dangerous and could undermine any lasting relationship. And then behold, that's what happens. And they are very good at words, but they don't use them the right way.

And they do, you know, the teasing and cajoling and it's corrosive. And when it becomes really competitive in the film, it's violent and nasty and Yeah, literally violent towards a point that's intolerable for both of them, you know. And then literal violence, exactly. Which we deal with in a, well, it's quite, I mean, it's like comic, it's heightened. The tone is. But they're a burst of real anger in there You know, we're not

Trying to make funny out of people That want to kill each other in a domestic environment Well, it's the same sort of heightened slightly cartoonish tone That the Danny DeVito film had Exactly where you kind of go They're not going to do that And I think

That was my reaction to them doing that I'm going to pooh Where was I going with that? Yeah, I just heightened That's the word. Is it grand guignoll? What does that mean? Well, I'm hoping you would tell me.

You must know, that's a theatrical phrase, isn't it? Grand gillal. A dish of snails? I don't know. Gon guinea. It probably is. For some reason, it's in my head. It's been in my head all my life.

I've never known exactly. Like a sped ascalier. I know that one. Esprit of scalia. You define Esprit of scalia. So I can feel a little bit better about not knowing gongingal. Is when you are descending the stairs after an exchange. in the salon and you have a blast of that's what I should have said yeah they didn't say

dope in those days but it's realizing the witty comeback that wasn't available to you in the moment yeah it's the spirit of the stairs because it's as you're leaving you go ah shucks I missed it it is very useful phrase because everyone feels especially in the modern world in the social media world you know it's true like oh course I know what I should have said and especially after a confrontation in public or whatever if you get into a row with someone at the train station or whatever and you have the perfect

and you feel humiliated and tongue tied in those moments and then afterwards you're like of course I should have said this brilliant thing as Brie de Scallier the other one that is useful as a concept is Chardon Freud of course

Shardin Freud Well I think that's to talk about the movie more is very much a feeling it's there but for the grace of God go we as a couple night movie. It shouldn't be a depressing film. A, hopefully you're kind of gunning for both of them,

and not either or, but both of them, their love, what they actually have. And secondly, when it gets really dark, you could kind of go, well,

I can recognise bits of us, but whoa, thank God we didn't go there. Yeah, but for the grace of God, go we. So the Charlene Freud is that enjoyment of other people's suffering,

isn't it? Yes. The kind of vicarious to real. Taking pleasure in other people's misfortune. Exactly. Which I think that's what art and storytelling can do. It gives us that kind of cathartic release, go,

God, I didn't meet my father and blind him and bugger my mother. Yeah. Not bugger, but you know what I mean. Oh, yeah, I'd love that. That's Oedipus. That's your next film. Yes. Oh, dear.

A lovely glass of Shard and Freud. Or, as my son said the other day, Dad, who's Freud and Schneider? I was like, okay. A rip-off of Freud. Made hot dogs. It's great, man. I really enjoyed it.

It's like, I just want. I want to see a film about feelings and mad feelings, real feelings, relatable feelings, abstract feelings, whatever. It was good to watch a thing that was all about that. My feelings are important. My feelings are the best. Sometimes I feel happy.

Sometimes I'm depressed. I love my feelings. Nothing is real unless it's something I feel. My feelings. My feelings, my feelings, that's where I stop, that's where I end. And if you don't respect my feelings, then we can't be friends. We can't be friends. This jingles all over my feelings.

This jingles all over my feelings. This jingles all over my feelings. singles all of them, I feelers. I'm going to switch to asking you some questions that can be quick fire, so we don't have to dwell on them. You could give quick responses. I'm thinking of James Lipton a little bit. You never inside the actor's studio, were you yourself?

Or outside it, no. No. I'm like a loser. You were barred from the actor's studio. No, but I know you mean. Yeah, okay. Inside the actor's studio. Have you ever had a massive meltdown on a film?

oh yeah yeah shouting throwing things yeah has it been filmed and recorded and put out there like tom cruise no no no i mean massive probably not massive for me what was it about do you remember why it happened i wouldn't call it a massive meltdown and i'm always very all over the place after i have any kind of loss of composure but uh usually to do with insecurity yeah of course it's what it's all about with any actors that are notorious for that or do it on surprisingly um it's about a loss in confidence of self and going, help me, I'm, I'm naked at me and I don't know what the fuck I'm doing, you know,

and you just look for, you look for something to, it's not about blaming someone. It's often, for me, in a bigger film, when a director's not there, when I'm just kind of in front of a camera, the crew about 100 yards away, the camera's going like that, and I'm being flying around the street

and guess what production that was. That gets, that's difficult. Are you going to remind, you're looking at me as of like, well, that's interesting, if you haven't mentioned this one, which Martin Freeman told me about, on the 7th of August in...

No, I'm trying to... I'm cultivating sympathy for actors in that situation, having been criticized by friends, well, Louis Theroux mainly, for basing one of my podcast jingles on Christian Bale's meltdown on the set of Terminator salvation.

It's so good. It's one of your jingles. The other favorite of mine, just to get off the sticky subject on my meltdowns is your square space one. And I was trying to look for it on SoundCloud, and I can't find it. I don't have a search for anything on SoundCloud.

I'm so everything illiterate. especially that and I I love it I just love it because I'm a big fan of Michael Barbaro on the daily Oh yeah You know the kind of Hmm

The audio version of the Yeah Of the noddy You know the kind of That's right When an interviewer on telly It's just nodding Going hmm

I'm deeply understanding what it's saying Or kind of going along with it And he goes Huh Hmm Hmm Hmm But you just take it to this

section You go Huh Huh Huh huh? Huh? It's just Yeah

That's me That's me age 12 And now And I guess it's how all this started actually with dictophones and doing silly voices and my own version of is that what you used to do yeah well it is it is i used that was kind of before i was given more responsibility and actually doing it properly i just kind of run around doing and i think that's where my for impersonations and stuff like that came about on your dictaphone on a dictaphone at school yeah

right and then just sort of going around yeah the magic of recording your voice and hearing it back for the first time conversations with it with the character that i was portraying a master or a pupil or someone made up and you know in front of kids as they were going to bed and I was trying to be the authority in that moment I remember doing that and yeah lots of skits and lots of things like that for real as in with other people but yeah the jiggles thing I've always loved he shouldn't be angry with you about Christian Bell Christian Bell's brilliant and he could probably take it's probably very flattered and it's very funny but I probably imagine in that moment I can put myself in that moment and I've heard about that DOP I've heard he is incredibly disrespectful

I've only worked with Christian down the line in Andy Circa's Returning of the Jungle book Which is wonderful to have a moment with him Sadly not on set But he was so charming Right, let's go again What don't you fucking understand Kick your fucking ass

Let's go again What the fuck is it with you? I want you off the fucking set, you prick No! You're a nice guy The fuck are you doing? No! Don't shut me in. up. No! No! Don't shut me up! Ah, da-da-da-da-da-like this. Fuck-sake, man, you're amateur.

Seriously, man, you and me, we're fucking done professionally. I think it's usually for me about feeling insecure, feeling that things are so far away and I don't know what I'm doing. I did a film recently, I won't mention, because I don't want to involve the people's names in it in the anecdote, but my side of it, my sort of insecurity was that there'd been a while a discussion, something that wasn't going right in this long old action scene this big old fight number and counter directions coming from ADs and the first AD and I was going, please can I have a director. Can I just have a and everyone went really quiet because director does a lot remotely. He watches it. He feeds in, but I said, I need my director. Well, we got, no, that's, I need my, the director here now. And everyone's

like, a little bit. I felt, but probably not. Probably other people were going, yeah, that'd be nice. It would be nice. Come on. And he was on. And he was. And he was. fine and he sorted it out he knew that you know I was having a bit of a hissy and I need to you know have my knickers untwisted yeah it wasn't really a hissy either it was just like what the fuck are we actually doing I'm this is I can't hold like five different versions of this in my head and know which one I'm supposed to be doing and it was cleared up and it was great and actually it made a difference he really improved the bit that we were struggling with but I I have that sometimes and it's usually when it's I don't understand what is wanted as well because

I am, I mean, to my detriment at times, a bit of a people, please. And if I feel, and it's like, no, no, no, I thought I was, no, no, no. If I can't get that right, that wears me down. I don't think I have a hissy fit, so I just lose all kind of faith in being any good at anything at that point. And it's quite a spectacular amount of people to feel that in front of. And I've definitely, I've had that on stage countless times when you just go, they really, I've lost everyone in this room, what I'm doing here, they're just imagining other

people doing this. and thinking why did they spend any money in time watching me kind of flail around and fail, you know. So you just kind of have to have another point of focus in those crisis moments and go, I'm just going to work with the people opposite me. They know what I'm doing and I'm going to really listen to them and hope that, you know, something happens between us and not worry about my own crashing sense of inadequacy or fear, you know. Oh, it's very heartening to hear someone as accomplished as you struggling with those things. That's true. I think we all do.

Of course. Impressions, though, I'm not going to get you to do the thing they did. I've got a treat for you. If we have time. Yeah. And my director actually said, and it wasn't director I was talking about, this is Dylan Southern, who I just did, who's originally from the sort of music video world.

Yeah. So quite a favoured tech. He's a real Siniaast, and he's a brilliant director. And this is his first-time feature. It's an adaptation of a Max Porter novel called The Thing. Well, Grief is the Thing with Feathers. It's the brilliant novella, which actually you should definitely read. In our version, it's called The Therapeutic.

thing with feathers and he you know it's a very serious book for those listeners who know it and a very serious subject but dealt with in the most extraordinary what was that phrase you had earlier the gongu gongingal kind of a bit of gongingal going on in it at times and humor and darkness and really authentic grief and and uh tears and maelstrom so is this quite it's quite rich deep stuff but this however is what he spent his time doing um He was in a bored moment of editing. And I just think you'll appreciate it. I did ask for this permission before I came out to take

because I thought, I don't have a jingle. I don't have the time or the whereabouts to do it, where how, know how. But this is his first offering. Can I have my face? out of my what special hole oh my special hole and I thought okay that's still in southern is it yeah but it could be adding bucks and it was just sort of slightly unnerving but yeah anyway I don't you can use

that or not but I thought I had to share that with you whether it's in real time I'd love to add in Buckson time all right quick fire do you smell nice what is your favorite smell it's important to me yes I like natural smells but I don't want to overload people with either that or the cologne cover-up which I find that is more offensive actually than be oh these days it's like when you walk into an elevator and you smell of the cologne that that person or where to twilight that the woman is well we're in a hotel which is one of those hotels that has quite a heavily perfumed lobby don't you see i'm so anethitized to it because i've been in here for three whole days i'd probably smell of the hotel now

when i go in but do you wear deodorant no i wear rock salt the rock crystal stuff i use that this is very wow i never thought i'd be talking about what i rub under my armpits with you rock crystals you're rubbing under there. Yeah. Well, you know, yeah, it's basic salt crystal. It's called salt of the earth. And, yeah, it's basically, it's a natural bacteria killer. So it kind of kills the thing that makes the odour.

Sure. It doesn't give you a nice smell. It stops you smelling bad. Okay. So rub a bit under the arms, bit under the nutties. I mean, yeah. Sure. Whoa. Whoa.

Well, we just maybe, I mean, you know, leave that to the audience. It's imagination. Okay, then. Here's a nice question. Go on there. What always lifts you? your spirits could be in any medium. Listening to you doing the square space.

The Michael Barbaro impression. It really makes me happy just thinking about it. There are a few things like that. Using templates and drag and drop tools, you can create a professional looking website in less than half an hour. What else makes me happy? My family. What a suck-up and sentimentalist sign.

But it's true. Those are the two things that make me happy. You and my family. Oh, thank you. These are things that are coming off the top of my head. I mean, it depends. Nature, nature, nature. Going back to the proper vibrational frequency that we're all having a rest state,

which is apparently the same as the Earth's, that's been proven. So getting rid of your smart things and just walking around, and it could be a nice flat bit of Norfolk or a hilly, woody bit of somewhere. But, you know, trees are my thing as well. I love that kind of tree bath thing. Is there a film that reliably lifts your spirits that you return to? I mean, the big ones seasonally, you know, like, it's a wonderful life. But Sophie and I win Edinburgh, and she went, let's go and see it.

It's all not the cinema. I can't see it too many times. My God, though, on the cinema, the microscopic detail of how extraordinary those performances are. I haven't seen it for years. Oh, he's so good in it. I mean, and not just because it's kind of iconic, but it's a brilliant piece of naturalism. He's so alive and everything he does. It's remarkable.

And you really only get that hit, I think, in a close-up in a cinema. Yeah. Not on the aff on. No. What was it, the David Lynch? would say if people feel they've seen a movie on their fucking phone it's a tragedy you haven't seen a film if you watch it on your phone did you you did a podcast do you do a podcast with him no he was always on my wish list you did we have done with is it vinders or is oh hirzog how is that

that was should listen to that one all the way oh that's quite a good one yeah yeah worked out well we had some technical issues and i initially thought we we had one session via zoom that ended with me just giving up, basically, after half an hour. He was getting more and more frustrated, and he said, I knew this would happen. This is grotesque. I mean, that... Because of the technical issues, he really hates all that.

This is grotesque. This is grotesque. I told them it would happen like this. I love your version because it's like he's got an elastic mouth. Yeah, my version has gone quite... What's your version? I think he's a little tighter, everything's just a little, his jaw is hurting when he speaks. Because he hurts, but yours is like, I know, I want to swallow a tennis ball.

Mine's got quite a long way from reality. It's more like perfect tundercrass. That's right. Is Nico, yes. It's tremendous as nicko. I'll be your mirror. It is grotesque. Wait.

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and when you have decided that you're ready to pay type in the offer code Buxton. Why? Because you'll save 10% if it's your first purchase of a website or domain. Oh 10%! That's my favourite percent! Thank you, Squarespace! Continue. Have you ever put drugs on your bum? People do that, don't they?

They do. I don't. Hey, welcome back, podcats. That was Benedict Cumberbatch, talking to me there, of course. Well, just there, it was us going to a place that I thought better of going to. There was a PR person in the room, and I didn't look over at that exact moment, but I was getting the first. feeling that I should move on from that particular subject.

Anyway, it was really great to meet Benedict, and I'm very grateful to him and his team for making the time to talk to me. A reminder that The Roses is in cinemas now, and later this year, you'll be able to see Benedict in that Dylan Southern film, The Thing with Feathers. Before I say goodbye, another couple of cultural recommendations. for you. Miranda Sawyer's podcast. Talk 90s to me. Miranda is a great journalist who writes brilliantly about music. She's been on this podcast before and actually she has invited me onto her podcast to talk about the 90s and pop culture and DIY TV and music and all that kind of stuff.

I'm looking forward to that but it was good timing because I'd been audio booking her Britpop book which is called Uncommon People. Synopsis begins when Miranda Sawyer interviewed Noel Gallagher in 1995, his gag, wishing Damon Olban would die of AIDS, became front-page news. This fascinating pop history

exploring the mid-90s moment when British music suddenly meant everything explains why, picking out 20 key songs delving into the surprising stories behind them and their unlikely creators Uncommon People takes us back to when Jarvis'

became a national hero. Train spotting was a global hit. Fire starting seemed like a good night out and it felt as though the revolution was happening. A very different time. Anyway, as I said, she writes really well about it. I'm enjoying it so much and I'm looking forward to appearing on her podcast, Talk 90s to Me. Also, I just listened to the first episode of a Radio 4 series which you can listen to now on BBC Sounds. What Happened to Counterculture? It's presented by Stuart Lee. In fact, I was going to mention it last week

when I talked about bumping into Stuart, but I forgot. And it's produced by Simon Hollis. The blurb says, comedian Stuart Lee presents a five-part series exploring the evolution and key ideas that have driven counterculture from its beginnings with the beats,

folk and jazz in the 1950s, to its heights in the 1950s, to its heights in the 19th. 60s and 70s, including the hippies and early tech communalists, the new libertarian movements and punk to the 1980s and early 90s where political power on both sides of the Atlantic pushed back against the values of the permissive society. It's good, interesting, timely. You've got contributors that include Brian Eno, authors Ian Sinclair and Olivia Lang, music producer Joe Boyd. I loved his book, White Bicycles. I really recommend that. Joe Boyd produced Early Pink Floyd and Nick Drake

and was a seminal figure in the British folk movement in the 60s. It's such a good book, White Bicycles. There's also sculptor Emily Young, cultural historian John Savage, folk singer Shirley Collins, and that's just in episode one. What Happened to Counterculture? There's a link in the description that will get you to

BBC Sounds, where you can listen to it. By the way, I'm not sponsored by them. The castle, that is. It's just something I enjoyed, and I thought I would share it with you. And finally, hope you'll forgive me for mentioning it again, but it would be sort of insane if I didn't, considering it comes out this week. My album, Buckle Up, lands on the 12th of September.

There's a link in the description that will enable you to pre-order... Order! A vinyl copy that comes with beautiful signed artwork. And the same day that the album comes out, I think I'm right in saying, single number three comes out, dancing in the middle. And it will be a good team and a bad team. And the team in between never win because that team are the whackers. Syriac Harris. If you used to come to bug shows, you will have seen many of Syriac's videos that we used to play there. If you've never heard of Syriac Harris, well, I would go exploring. Type in C-Y-R-I-K, Syriac, YouTube animations. And you're going to have a crazy, strange time. But Syriac has also directed many excellent music videos over the years, including one for My Counting Song.

Counting, counting, counting, counting, counting, counting, counting things you like. That was Syriac, although on that one he was working with artist Sarah Brown doing the illustrations. This time, it's just solo Syriac doing a video for dancing in the middle. Hope you enjoy it. I'm really delighted that Syriac did it. And overall, I really hope you like the album. It's like a mixtape of extended jingles. Is that good?

I've been doing press for it this week, which is slightly anxiety-inducing, and I often come out kicking myself for feeling that I've kind of undersold the album, put myself down too much. You know what I'm like. But the truth is, I'm really happy with it. I'm very grateful to everyone who's helped me put it together,

and I really hope you like it. All right. That's it for this week's episode. Thank you very much indeed once again to Benedict Cumberbatch. Thanks to Seamus Murphy Mitchell for his production support and additional conversation editing. Thanks to everyone at Acast for liaising with my sponsors. Thanks to Helen Green for her beautiful artwork.

But thanks most of all to you. Oh, you did it again. You came back. You listened to the end. I hope you enjoyed it. Hope it didn't send you into an apoplectic rage for any reason and whether it did or not I hope you won't consider me too forward if I propose a bit of a hug hey come on it's just a hug all right nice to see you I hope you're doing well

out there go carefully until next time I love you Like and subscribe Like and subscribe Like and subscribe Please like and subscribe Give me like a smile and a thumbs up Nice like a pint where my bum's up Give me like a smile and a thumbs up

Nice like a pat where my bum's on Like and subscribe Like and subscribe Like and subscribe Please like and subscribe Bumns up give me like a smile on a thumbs up nice like a line for me Bums on Subscribe

I can subscribe I can subscribe I can subscribe I can subscribe I can subscribe I'm a smile on the fun sign and I'm going to be a lot of my bummer's up and I'm going to be a lot of the Thank you.

Okay. . I'm going to be able to be. I'm a bit of I'm a bit of a bit. I'm a bit of a bit. I'm a bit. I'm a.

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