THE ADAM BUXTON PODCAST - EP.261 0 AYOADE BAMGBOYE

Episode Date: October 8, 2025

Adam talks with Nigerian writer/performer Ayoade Bamgboye about winning the 2025 Best Newcomer award at the Edinburgh Fringe, what determines her accent switching, her conservative upbringing, subsequent radicalisation and why she no longer wants her audiences to feel bad. And at Castle Buckles, an unseasonably warm day brings creepy guests.Conversation recorded face-to-face in London on 25 September 2025AYOADE BAMGBOYE - SWINGS AND ROUNDABOUTS @ SOHO THEATRE - 2025/2026ADAM'S FORTHCOMING LIVE SHOWSThanks to Séamus Murphy-Mitchell for additional editingPodcast illustration by Helen GreenListen to Adam's album 'Buckle Up' Order Adam's book 'I Love You Byeee' Sign up for the newsletter on Adam's website (scroll down on homepage)RELATED LINKS2025 EDINBURGH BEST NEWCOMER AWARD - AYOADE BAMGBOYE - 2025 (YOUTUBE)RISE AND SHINE WITH CHANNEL 9 Written by Ayoade and co-starring Daniel Rigby - 2024 (YOUTUBE)THE 48 LAWS OF POWER (1998) SUMMARIZED IN UNDER 8 MINUTES BY ROBERT GREENE - 2023 (YOUTUBE)THE LOST BUS (OFFICIAL TRAILER) Directed by Paul Greengrass - 2025 (YOUTUBE) Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey, how you doing podcasts? It's Adam Buxton here. I just thought I'd change things up for the intro today. Don't worry, we'll have the intro theme and get back to normal in a little bit, but I thought I would let you in on a unusual, houral experience here at Castle Buckles. The last few days out here have been quite cold. I've been wearing long trousers. That's how bad it's been. But today is suddenly much warmer. In fact, the sun is out and it's streaming through the windows here in the barn right next to my nutty room where I work. And I don't know if you can hear an ambient noise.

What do you think that is? Maybe if I amplify the sound a little bit, you'll get a better idea of what we're dealing with here. Yes, it is flies. It is hundreds of flies. It's really like the portal to hell here in the barn, out in Norfolk today. I mean, it's the nice part of the portal to hell because the sun is shining. It's a beautiful day.

But the temperature has provoked a sudden, mass. population increase for the fly community. What are they going to do for their time here on earth? Maybe I should open the door and let them out so they can at least explore the outside world rather than just bumping up against the window of the barn. The Buckles Barn Spider Posse are licking their lips because soon it is going to be feasting time.

in the circle of life i tell you what i'm going to just open the door here fly fly my pretties go and explore norfolk see what's happening with the delays on the a11 enjoy yourselves some of them are going quite a few others are just saying no it's okay thank you I'm going to stay here, bumping against the warm window. Actually, if I was a fly, I'd probably be one of those. Now I'm in the kitchen podcats, and Rosie is here. She's just got back from a walk with Frank, and she looks fairly panty. Do you want to come for another walk, Rosie?

I think it's Panty Max. Not to make you sound like a feminine hygiene product, Rosie, but probably I'll let you stay here. Say hello to the podcast, Rose. No, thank you. I'll just roll over for a scratch instead. There you go. Okay, everyone in the kitchen has stopped moving

so that I can do the intro. Thank you very much. Finish now. podcast bin. Now you have plucked that podcast out and started listening. I took my microphone and found some human folk. Then I recorded all the noises while we spoke. My name is Adam Buxton. I'm a man. I want you to enjoy this. That's the plan. Hey, how are you doing podcasts? It's Adam Buxton here. Back on the Norfolk farm track where I belong, after that extended, ambient intro.

Just thought it'd be a nice change. Rosie is back in the kitchen. After a lovely sunny walk, I mean, it really is a sort of idyllic, slightly weird, dreamlike day. the flies notwithstanding and also the ladybirds they're everywhere just today they've all exploded into life thanks to the change in temperature but it's also very still out here there's hardly any wind

and it's a totally cloudless blue sky it's like standing on a film set almost okay that's enough waffling and scene setting let me tell you a bit about podcast number 261, which features a good old rambling conversation with Nigerian comedy writer and performer Ayawade Bamboye. A few weeks ago, Ayahuade won the Best Newcomer Award at the Edinburgh Fringe this year, 2025, for listeners from the future. Here's some Bamboye facts for you.

Ayawade was born in Edmonton in the far north of London. in 1994, to a Nigerian mother and father. Mum worked in HR, and dad was in the marketing department of a Nigerian telecoms company. The family moved to the West African coastal city of Lagos when Ayahuade was seven. But when she was 16, she returned to the UK, where her parents had enrolled her at a boarding school in the Lake District. After leaving school, Ayuade studied politics at King's College in London before returning home to Lagos once more, where she learned to drive, worked in business development for creative companies,

and generally started the process of putting down routes. Within a couple of years, however, Ayahuadi was back in London doing odd jobs before finding a position in an advertising agency. She stayed in the ad industry for a few years, working her way up to quite senior positions, but all the while she was spending more and more time writing comedy on days off. At a birthday party, she met British Nigerian filmmaker and writer Akinola Davis Jr. And after getting to know each other a little, he helped her sign up with a literary agent.

Then in 2020, Ayawade's father suddenly died, ushering in a period of personal upheaval, during which she took a job in Budapest, where, thanks to a connection via her agent, she had landed a job as an assistant to the director Jorgos Lampthimos, who was there starting production on his film Poor Things, starring Emma Stone and Willem Defoe eventually released in 2024, I think. But Ayawaday was not in a good place, personally, that is. Apparently Budapest is very nice. And after just six weeks, she was fired.

All of this, however, was, in retrospect, part of a process that led to Ayawadi committing to starting her live comedy career back in London. And she talks about the death of her father and her time in Budapest in her current show, swings and roundabouts, which was her first at the Edinburgh Fringe. According to Ayawadi, the show is also about going nowhere fast, being too British to stop apologising and too Nigerian to stop shouting. As I speak, Swings and Roundabouts has just started a run at the Soho Theatre in London, which has already sold out. But there's another chance to catch the show early next year when it runs at the Soho Theatre between January the 13th to the 24th. I haven't actually seen Swings and Roundabouts yet. There's not that much of Ayawadi on the internet at the moment. She focuses her efforts on the actual comedy rather than.

than much social media. So there isn't a huge amount of stuff of her out there. There is a special that she did with Daniel Rigby, a kind of spoof of this morning called Rise and Shine with Channel 9 that she did for Channel 4, produced by A24. There's a link in the description. But other than that and one or two very short bits on YouTube, which was all I could find,

I went into my conversation with Ayawadi without really knowing that much about her. The thing is that I was given the opportunity by some of the organizers at the Edinburgh Festival to interview the winner of the Best Newcomer Award. Obviously, I didn't know who that was going to be, but I was up for it, you know, just to try and get my wizened old finger

a little closer to the comedy pulse. But yes, it meant that when I met Ayawadi at the end of September, more than usual, I was getting to know her as we spoke, which I really enjoyed. found her to be, and I hope she doesn't think this is a weird thing to say, multifaceted and mischievous. So anyway, rather than telling you what we spoke about, come on the journey of discovery with us and get to know Ayawadi along with me in real time. And I'll be back at the end

for a tiny bit more waffle. But right now, with Ayawadde Bamboye, here we go. Focus first on this, then concentrate on that. Come on, let's tune the vat, and have a ramble chat. Put on your conversation coat and find your talking hat. Yeah, yeah. Now listeners, you join myself in Iowadi at a point when I've just realized we've been chatting for five minutes about the mics that I'm using and the fluffy covers. And I just realized that I hadn't pressed record on the recorder. So I am now recording.

And the irony is so rich that because that was five minutes of some of the funniest things we've both ever said. It was good stuff. I would even like you to say some of the things again. I don't want to yuck anybody's yam. I did say that and I don't know. It feels out of character, but I actually don't want to yuck anybody's yom. I've now changed completely.

Since you've become thrust into the spotlight. No, since yesterday when I realized that I, so I have an iPad, which made things just clearer to me, you know? No. Why did it make things clear? So when you get an iPad, your frontal lobe is. it's completely rearranged. That's what happens,

especially when you're a woman or a girl with an iPad. It means that you are suddenly privy to something and knowing, an intelligence that is amplified by that flat piece of metal. Well, it depends where you go with it. It doesn't. You know, I could be holding my iPad on the way to the washing machine and somehow it will completely improve my experience. of doing the laundry.

What's the best thing you've seen on your iPad? I was on that, because I've downloaded the LBC radio app. Oh, yeah. So LBC Radio is one of my kind of, it's one of my Roman empires as a sort of store of the kind of curmudgingly British disposition. Everybody there is miserable. Everybody is stressed. So I downloaded the app so that I could get a main line of that stress.

at any given point. What do you listen to on there, James O'Brien? James O'Brien, and then the, is this all right to say, the large one? I don't even know what that is. The large man, he's fat. I'm going to need more than that. I'm not a regular listener myself. Oh, right. He's fat and white.

Still need more. He's quite brutish. And more. But he seems like he would be five foot seven. I mean, I love the sound of this guy. but I don't know who he is. He's very spirited. Who the hell is that?

I cannot remember. Is it a talk show host? He's, yeah, he wears the, you know, so like how you have this headphones on. Yeah. He has the same headphones. That's not helpful at all. Nick Ferrari? That was the first hit I got.

I typed in. Did you put fat? I put fat, brutish short, and I got Nick Ferrari. No, I didn't. I just typed in LBC presenters. Yeah, Nick, I think it's Nick Ferrari. And that app on my iPad has completely changed my game. I saw a headline that stated, Amy from Love Island backs the Gatwick Airport expansion.

That's my favorite type of news because it's a perfect combination of the high and the low. Amy from Love Island, I'm not sure what the stakes of the Gatwick Airport expansion. how important it is to her. But then I later found that she used to be a flight attendant. Okay, like my mom. Like your mom? Yeah. So is your mother still with her?

She's not. She's gone to the great departure lounge in the sky. She shuffled off this mortal coil. God rest our soul. Thank you. But I'm sure she would be completely invested in the Gatwick Airport expansion. Probably, yeah. She would have been all up for that kind of thing.

She would have been all over it. Yeah. But what a delicious headline. what do we make of that what did you make of it I laughed my head off and I said you know what good on her

she cares about the Gatwick Airport expansion it's jobs isn't it was there any mention of the climate implications there was and she you know

it's difficult to have an opinion on the climate when you're not a climatologist right doesn't stop a lot of people I know you know what they're like I really enjoyed that So let's have more of that

Throughout That voice Yeah Let's have more of that Throughout this experience Well that's kind of LBC caller isn't you? Yeah

I'm completely appalled by this James I have to point out that you're talking absolute rubbish On some of this Asylum Hotel stuff Yeah why do they get taxis

Why do they get taxis Yeah I'm paying for them to stay And they're getting luxury breakfast So I've seen the website They've got Sky

I've massively oversimplified A very complicated and divisive issue national issue you know what i'm getting a i'm getting a vibe that some things are too important to be taken seriously it's just if we you know when people say stuff like it's just it is very it's a very complex issue yeah i think we need to do some reducing of that complexity fair enough do we need to tie up any loose ends there we've got lbc we've got nick ferrari no disrespect to nick

It was all a bit of fun how we were describing. And, you know, I'm body positive. Body positive. No shaming here, please. James O'Brien, we didn't say anything bad about James O'Brien. Spineless and a coward. Okay. And we massively oversimplified the divisive nature of the caste warfare,

immigration issue, et cetera. And I think that was it from that beginning part. At this point, and I appellate, and I appellate, I apologize if this is a question that you don't like. Tell me honestly how it makes you feel to talk about this. Explain to me what happens in your mind when you are switching accents. What determines when you switch? Isn't that such a good quote?

I actually love the question. I'm getting it more and more after fringe. Yeah. I think what happens in my brain when I'm switching accents is it feels instinctive. But then when it's retroactively, like when I'm thinking about it, it's on purpose. So now, the way I just said purpose, that's a sort of

generalized sort of estuary type of accent. And you've asked me a question and I want to articulate the answer and there was a sort of period of my upbringing where articulation was synonymous with Englishness and Britishness

and you would enunciate in the way that this language was designed. Now I'm sort of floating back into my generalised Nigerian accent because I'm getting comfortable so once I allow myself to settle into the chair and into my thought process

then I'll go back to my base which is this so that is your base is that how you think that's how I think yeah that's how I think but I find that there's some instances where I'm thinking so I find if it's like a if it's a word like on a matapieic word

that I love, I'd think it in like a, in an estuary. So I love the word tinker. Mm-hmm. I love tinkering. I very rarely say that in a generalized Nigerian accent. Right. That was a word that came to you in your estuary British mode. Yes.

And when it comes to me like that, I won't fight it. Yeah. Don't fight the tinkers. There's no point. Or pottering. Okay, yeah. Sure, that's a very British word. Pottering's British.

And there's certain phrases. in saying so I have a very loving relationship with idioms and an idiom to me feels necessarily British certain idioms so when people say it's a much of a muchness isn't it oh mate that has to be said in the way that is said do you know what I mean yeah definitely I'm trying to think if I can think of any Americans no you're not going to catch Trump saying well it's so much of a muchness oh Although the way you just said it. Bad people.

Oh, he'll say that. Mean people. So if he, for example, if one of his advisors had said in a flurry, it's a much of a muchness, two seconds before he got on stage, we don't know. Stranger things have happened. Might come out of his mouth. What does much of a muchness mean anyway? Like, same difference, is it?

Same difference. Yeah, same. So I love that class of idiom that is, the beginning is also the end and the end is the beginning. It's all the same. six of one and half a dozen of the other. Yeah. Swings in roundabouts. Those kinds of idioms injected directly into my veins in the form of hard drugs.

And I'd be okay with that. Swings and roundabouts is the name of your show, of course. Is the name of my show. Yes. And that process of getting to a title, you've done fringes. I have. You know the process is at many points completely antithetical to true creativity. Because you have to decide the title of your show before you know what you're going to see.

That's true, yeah. before you've got it all worked out. Exactly. Keep it generic. Keep it generic. And swings and roundabouts kept coming back as a way to conclude a conversation and a way to, as a segue into lots of different ideas. And you start as you mean to go on, but then you also start and end at the same place.

Yeah. And how perfect is that as a concept and as a phrase? Is it going to look good on a poster? That's the other big consideration. Yes. I mean, there were so many considerations that I just didn't have because I had no context and no references, really, like personal references, because that was my first show and my first time, like, I'd gone to watch Fringes and one of my best friends went to Edinburgh. So she, I went for her graduation. And the first time I went up there was extremely scary because I went when it was the first one after the pandemic.

Oh, yeah. And there was a bin strike. Bin strike. Yes. So it was dystopian It was Nasty

You know There was people like Fagin's boys Like slinking out of the shadows You know With flyers Come to my show And it was scared

I was like That's what That's what it's always like The hell is going on here Yeah And as a first Introduction to something so magical It really set me back

And I just started Stand up And I was like If this is what you're supposed to do In the month of August I would rather be water-budded. So 2020, you're starting, and what did you go up there with? I know, I went to watch.

Oh, you just went to watch? Yeah, I just went to watch. I went for two days, two, three days. Just watching. Yeah, just watching. And what kind of material were you doing at that point? And what had led you? This is a lot of questions I'm hitting you with.

But what had led to you becoming a stand-up? Were you working in advertising at that point? I was still working advertising. I was working part-time, but I was also writing. So I think I had like a sort of rightly disposition from quite an early age. This is what was told to me. I'm not making this up, but I was gifted. Congratulations. Thank you. Very, very gifted. The sort of the type of child you take to the side. Prodigy. Yes, almost prodigy. So for example, I can remember the first year of my life. Is that true?

No. It's a complete fabrication. I got sucked in by the prodigy. You know, that's a complete fabrication. But basically, I was gifted. Yeah. So a lot of that was manifesting in just how I was writing, what I was writing. Okay.

And I, in my sort of, I'd say, 18 to 23 was doing a lot of more like editorial or prosaic writing. Where were you living at that point? I was, so I was living in English. Oh, yeah, okay. Yeah, so I was born in London. I was in London till I was seven. Then I went to Lagos till I was 15. Ah, right.

And then I came back to, well, I went to the Lake District for boarding school. Did you? Yeah, that was actually one of the funniest things to ever happened to me. Because I went straight from Murta-Lamahe Airport in Lagos. Tell me why I ended up in Oxenholm for school, for two years. And have you been to the Lake District? Yes. Oh.

I love it. It is very beautiful. You're going to shit on the Lake District now? No, I won't shit on the Lake District because it's one of the most beautiful places ever. It's hard to be. But I think it's too stark a journey to go from Lagos to the Lake District. Yeah, well, that's fair. You know, it's too sharp.

Yeah. You didn't have such a good time. I had a lovely time. Oh, okay. But in the beginning, I was just a bit shocked. Shocked. And I was irritated. I was annoyed because it started.

I started quite a complex relationship with my identity coming back to the UK. And this is what you talk about in your show to some degree. Yes, yes, exactly. You get here, and I think especially at the age that I was, 15, 16, and so a lot of your predilections and your values are forming. And I felt a sense like a groundedness in what was beginning to be my personality. And growing up in Lagos, everybody looks like you. And so there's not really the element of a racialized existence that adds a level of jeopardy to your development.

And then I suddenly get to the Lake District and I'm looking around and I'm thinking, oh, this might be a little bit of an issue because you're suddenly black. Can you remember what those thoughts were like then? Apart from the obvious, apart from looking around and feeling like visually you were different. it's very cold, but then imagine you're cold in your soul. And it's like being in exile. You're not quite sure when you're going to get to go home, but there's just a sinister, an undercurrent of malevolence that you can't put your finger on because nobody's actively trying to kill you.

You know what I mean? Yeah. But they don't necessarily want you there. Yeah. So your whole existence is begrudgingly. I don't know how to, to, that's it. actually a really good question, because I think I would love to put pen to paper on what that exact feeling is, but you feel uneasy.

Hard to separate that feeling, though, an awareness of a racial separateness from a feeling of just being bummed out by going to a new school and being surrounded by people you may or may not get on with anyway. Exactly. And I think there was so much of it, which is like now I can separate some of those things of what is homesickness or what was homesickness, what was, and also it was maybe just like I'm coming from an environment where I was loved and cherished and lorded and you were gifted, gifted and into a space where there was almost like an assumption that I wasn't perfect and I wasn't the greatest thing since sliced bread, which irritated me and

made me quite annoyed because I expected to be the doors fling open, choir on one side, orchestra on the other side, red carpets, to say IAD is here. There was none of that. Why aren't people excited to see me? Were you excited to see them? Were you thinking, I'm going to smash this? Yes. And I was thinking because I was like, because people loved me wherever I went. So I just thought, oh, I'm going to, I guess I'm going to be cold. But once I get into the house, into my dorm, it's going to be copacetic. Like this is, that's how it normally is.

People will be like, she's, it's her. Hmm. It's her. But no, there was actually none of that and it really upset me. How long did that phase go on?

Oh, just for like six weeks. And then they were impressed. Then they were like, yeah, she's here. Yeah, just like impressed. Would I say impressed or just enamored? Sure. So what were your parents like?

Your dad is no longer with us. You talk about that in your show. God, rest his soul, sweet man. When did he go? He went, well, it's going to be five years in a few weeks, actually. Not that long. Not that long. It's so, it is still one of the things that I'm just like, how dare that happen?

Oh, man. How old was he? He was 58. Oh, that's young. It's too young. It's just too young. And he was such a really nice balance of, like, gregarious and daring. And then my mom is quiet.

She's a bit more stoic, but she still gets excited. by things which is really nice and growing up they were very very and I would I say sometimes maybe two affirming where we just we were pushed towards you know anything you want to do just go and do it so I remember growing up right before we moved to Nigeria we did every club I did Kuman I did a drama dance is the maths one I know we did everything and it was just like you know get them into whatever they want maybe they'll find their thing and I just remember sort of like, you know when you're just a pep in your stuff as a child? Yeah.

Just like very, very, and to be fair, my mum said I just talked too much. She said, I talked too much. And I don't know if it's a cultural thing, but the way I grew up, we were spanked. Oh, okay. So. I got a bit of spanking back in the day, but it was old in the, it was 70s spanking. So mine was 90s, early 2000s. Yeah.

Well, there's laws about it now in parts of the UK. Really? Yeah. So as in, if you smack your child, Jill? I think fine, maybe. Fine! I might Google this. Oh, that can't be. No, no, that's hilarious.

Are you okay? That chair is... Is it gone now? I don't think it's like the chair. I'm not around too much. It was a really bad chair. Hang on, let me sort you out. Oh, this one's higher. It's a technique I got off Stephen Bartlett.

to, you know, assert your dominance as a host, you give them rickety furniture. You have to control the CO2 levels. They're in fire, so flight mode. Exactly. Have you ever read the 58 Laws of Power? No. Hello, fact-checking Santa here. The name of the book is actually the 48 Rules of Power by Robert Green, published in 1998.

That is exact, all of what you just said is in that canon. I bet you Stephen Bartlett's read that. He's 100 feet. That's on his night stand. He's wanking off to that as we speak. That's so many laws of power. Have you read it? I've started reading it.

So I know I've read the laws, but in terms of, because each chapter then goes into a bit more detail. But that was a project on looking into the male mental health crisis. Because I think we're missing a trick. I think that we're going to look back in many years and we're going to think about how we're, We didn't do enough to make it worse.

To make it worse. Of course. We need to get some of these guys out of here. Which guys? Men who can't drive. What's the point of you? You know? Men who can't swim, why are you still here?

Men who can't swim. I'm not taking advice from a man who cannot operate machinery. Yeah. This is the kind of rhetoric that I would expect from someone who was smacked as a child. here are the current UK laws on smacking children when it says it differs by country

it is illegal in Wales and Scotland in England and Northern Ireland smacking is lawful only if it constitutes quote's reasonable punishment okay so I don't know maybe you were doing something that constituted reasonable punishment I mean I was when I say smacked

I'm using that as the if there are any Nigerians listening to this or any West Africans, any African-Caribians in the diaspora, they will know that when I say smack, I actually mean beats. I mean, I've received my fair share of dirty slaps when I got a bit too precocious. What's a dirty slap? A dirty slap is when it's all five fingers connect. Oh, mate.

But what that does is it resets you. So if you thought of it. about getting out of line, you are able to quickly reorient yourself and you can have a good time. This is all coming back to Matthew McConaughey's book, Green Lights. Everything seems to come back to that book for me this year. He talks about the fact that he gets a slap every now and again at certain key moments in his life. And he talks in a similar way that you do about it, resetting him and it being the thing he needed at that point. But he doesn't really, I mean, And for a lot of people listening, that's very jarring.

I mean, I presume that a lot of people listening will be, you know, quite intimate with the white liberal fantasy. And this sort of the, an expectation of certain comforts and ideals, you know, being on the right side of history, having the right politics. Some people just need a slap. And that I genuinely believe that there are a lot of people running around the whole place. with such reckless abandon that I know that they did not have the threat of a dirty slap when they were younger

and that's why you know a lot of people the whites they call their auntsies and uncles by their first name. Is that bad? Not that it's bad, it's different. You know, it's just a different thing. So is it fair to characterize

your upbringing as conservative? Oh yeah. Yeah. Very conservative. And I think that's what, it's a really helpful comparison because then I get to see, you know,

there's a foundation of a conservative upbringing and then a slight expansion as I was getting older and older. So there were stuff I wasn't allowed to do when I was 11 and then I'm allowed to do them when I'm 13. And then there's a bit more of an opening when I'm 15 and 17 and 18 and then you go off and you can live your life as you please. But having guard rails, I found quite, I guess I was very upset when they were there. But in hindsight, seems to be quite helpful. Right. Okay. I mean, obviously there's a fine line between we're taking it as red that there is a difference between the kind of guardrails that were set up for you and abusive parenting and regular physical abusive children. Of course, exactly. And I think those are

just two completely different things. And I guess I had the opportunity to be, I was raised in two very different places. And I was disciplined in quite a variety of ways. And the way that I was disciplined and taught values when I was growing up in Lagos was quite different from going to boarding school. I'm not with my parents. And there's a different type of structure around managing behavior that was very interesting for me to compare. Because I used to be shocked when my classmates, when I got to the Lake District, they just opened their mouth, they speak to the teacher. And I was like, why, this is a free-for-all, I guess. This is nuts. Does that conservatism carry through to your politics? You studied politics at college. Yeah, I did. I went to

Kings. And Kings, I think, is quite conservative, or at least like neoliberal at its core in terms of what the course contents were. And I think I got radicalised pretty early. In which direction? Oh, isn't that a good question? Of course, in the direction of the left, to the point where it would be like, you know, committing an act of domestic terrorism wouldn't have been out of my purview. And it annoyed my parents at every single sort of family holiday. It's like, what is she on about? What kind of things were you talking to them about? I think it was, a lot of it was about wealth disparities and an assumption that sub-equitorial affairs, you know, do not matter.

And I was also suffering from quite a few, like, nervous breakdowns. Oh, really? Yeah, so as I hit sort of 19 and I was in second year of uni, my brain sort of broke. Pushing yourself too hard? I think I was becoming too enamored with the idea of suffering. Oh, really? Yeah, it was, it felt quite indulgent, I think, maybe now in hindsight. That sounds like something my conservative parents might have said.

Yeah, it felt a bit, but I felt like, you know, when you, it's almost like I was on autopilot, and then I suddenly had to start driving. I had to try and take control of this speeding vehicle, and it was so harrowing to me. and I felt like all my nerve endings were exposed. And every single concept that I was studying, I was looking around and seeing it and feeling a helplessness that really, really destabilized me. Can you give me some specific examples?

Like, I did study abroad in Paris, and I was studying the history and the historiography of modern Africa. And my lecturer was a white male. and the way he spoke about my home with a almost sociopathic detachment made me want to kill myself and he described us like we almost like

you know if you saw a dog talking quite intrigued I've seen dogs talking yeah she's having a little nutter yeah it's just and it really and I couldn't put my finger on how casual He was about, you know, like we were also talking about security and securitization in Africa. So he was talking about the Congo.

And he would go, his eyes would go, like, he looked excited to describe why violence is inevitable in that part of the world. And I was just, also, I also didn't feel clever enough, or confident enough to challenge it. And I didn't feel like I had the language to challenge it. And all the context I had was like, but, I don't know. I don't know that that's what I feel as a person of African descent. That's violence is in my bones or in myself. I've taken a couple of slaps, but it doesn't mean that's all I am. Do you know what I mean?

And that really, really robbed me the wrong way. Those kinds of things, they filled me with rage. And I didn't know where to put it. And I think it made me quite sick, like physically, physically ill. Because I think when you're realizing that your life doesn't matter, your life matters least structurally, you can go a bit insane because it's very painful to internalise that. Do you still feel like that? Or do you think that you were more in touch in a painful way with your identity at that point rather than being able to have more generalised, detached

conversations? Yes. I think what it feels like I was always like hurtling towards a point where performance and comedy would become a vehicle for me to talk about all right. To talk about it, to put my pain and my rage. Put it there sustainably rather than allowing it to crush my spirit. And I think I'm just so grateful to like comedy as a sort of concept that that's how I get to access myself and to face my soul and to share those experiences with other people. And it's now a choice that this is upsetting to me and it can move through me and I can share that upset with other people. without it being didactic or, you know, you know, like clapping comedy.

Mm-hmm. Where if I say, you know what, black people should have rights. And everybody should, everybody would clap for me. Woo! Woo! No. Especially with this process, with swings aroundabouts and with Edinburgh and, like, finding my voice has been like, what is a way to face my soul and to have conversations

with my identity and to commune with it without it destroying me. Right. And without going for the cheap whoop? Yeah, without going for the cheap whoop. and I think the whimsy and the silly and has been so, like it's been restoring me in that sense and building me back up because I think there are lots of concepts that I felt I just did not want to get bogged down in the minutia because I'm not interested in arguing with people about that. Like I'm not going to talk, I'm not going to prove my self-worth or sense of self to people.

I'm not doing that. That's actually a stupid thing to do. And there's an idea of you play stupid games, you get stupid prizes. I don't want a stupid prize. You got one. Best newcomer. Ah!

No, I want best new. It's not a stupid prize. It's a great, it's the great prize. I mean, that was, that has been shocking to me because I think, like, to get to say what I wanted to say, and people like that, and they respond to that,

and it becomes this feedback loop of, like, it actually becomes a conversation and then somebody gives you a prize and then they give you £5,000 to potter and to tinker and to get to access your own emotional memories it's just been the greatest gift. And you feel like they are engaging with it, with your show, in the way that you would hope they would.

Yes, and I felt bad because I thought that there was a lot of fearmongering around Fringe and around being of a certain protected characterise, and going off to French, right? So what's the definition of a protected characteristic? The protected characteristic is that identifies that you can be discriminated against for. It's gender, race, I think class, sexuality. What's the other one?

Pregnancy. Oh, yeah. I think that's a specific one. Disability. So, like, there's... There's fleeces on there? Or shorts? I think shorts.

I think shorts might be. Shorts has to be on there. I didn't want to say anything when I saw you. No, that's good. I'm just... happy that I've got one of the protected characteristics. Yeah, I didn't, I didn't want to speak on it, but I said, when I saw the shores, I said, fuck.

He's protected. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or it needs to be. I can't drag him for that, but he should be dragged. It's too cold for that shit, man. What was I saying? But it was, I think I was going up there, really scared that these are going to be people who just, I'm going to be working against quite a lot of assumptions and expectations

of what I'm going to say. Yeah. Only for me to get there. And every single. show, and I'm not exaggerating, every single show, it felt like these were people coming in, clear eyes, full hearts, leaning forward and coming towards me and listening. And jokes about pain and grief and being confused and calling the Samaritans actually just became a conversation about how difficult it is to be alive. And we could all just sit with that in 55 minutes. And

it was just so, it was quite beautiful. Hmm. Yeah, it was really, it was transformative. And how did you feel then after getting the award? Have you started to think of those, I mean, I'm sure, I've never won an award like that, but I know that I would be overthinking it and thinking, oh, God, I don't know, like, what do you do now? How do you live up to this?

Is this going to be a load of unhelpful expectations piled upon you? Yeah. so much of that is around and for me it has been about the next of what you do next what does this mean for how you're perceived because when I got nominated I freaked out big time

I said shit now I'm going to have to do more work and I was like and I hate labour I mean lady of leisure so I couldn't believe that this what this means is that you have to do more work because what's the next show then after the show of course you are going to do a podcast

after the podcast BBC Radio 4 you're going to do that one and then you're going to do a 6 by 30 that's going to be commissioned by Channel 4 and then after that one you need to work up to the Emmys the Emmys is going to be tough

because you're going to need some friends in America but you hate America but that if you do the Emmys it doesn't make sense that you don't go for the Oscar, the Tony and of course a sag after a award so that's how my brain

was and it was just What a nightmare. Oh, I was, I was goosebumps. So I think, I don't know, I'm just very excited because this is the best possible outcome. Yeah, good. Oh, well, I'm glad you, I mean, you seem to be enjoying it. You don't seem tortured by it. No, I'm having the time of my life because it's all good things.

Yeah, good. I'm glad. Yeah, and it can be quite fraught. And I think it's also, I remember them asking me what it feels like to be the first black woman to win this award. Is that the case? That is, that's what I found out. Yeah, yeah. And the cynic in me was thinking to myself, surely they should be saying that with the appropriate

level of shame because this is not happening in a vacuum. I'm the first back woman to win this award because this is the first time you thought to give it to somebody like me. So I was kind of like, that is threatening to piss me off. But then I was able to reframe it because the pressure. I was feeling from that question. It was, I think I responded that way because I was like, am I now supposed to fly the flag

for every single non-white person who is going to win this award as a trailblazer? Because there's nothing I'm trailblazing because it has been extremely easy for me, very, very easy for me. And I think I need to be honest with myself about the ease and how many steps of the way I've just been given a very wide birth.

Mm-hmm. So with the wide birth comes, I guess, the burden of a responsibility to create. Something worthwhile. Something worthwhile. And I think it's just like, some things are just silly and nice. I think I did a, I did two gigs yesterday. And I love doing gigs that are just like, like, I do this gig called Emotional Capacity. And it's just, you know, it's just for the girls and the gays.

It's so silly. It's like, you know, you go to La Camienera on a Wednesday night. You have a margarita and you say funny things for seven. minutes like what do you do that's fantastic what were you talking about last night then last night i spoke about the the well i'm i'm thinking about hate languages okay sort of the inverse of love languages and i think because i perform in a lot of spaces where it's going to be the either the sort of quite principled gen z the small plates brigade i call them so very very you know you'd you do a charred brocolini you'd go to a Jolene, don't mind if I do a fresh bread, it's almond milk, it's very much,

I'm on the right side of history here. But I do feel like there's a really interesting Venn diagram of sort of white supremacy, white liberal, and that middle point where they intersect. And I'm exploring that in sort of these spaces where I... They both like brocolini. They both like broccoli. What is brocolini? It's like the skinny...

Oh, like broccoli. Little broccoli. Yeah, little broccoli. So it's like broccoli with quite a long stem. Picks up flavour very well. Yeah. But I think I do find that I'm performing in spaces. So even like, you know, the Moth Club, the Hackney Intelligensia, you know,

they're kind of thinking, this is, I think this is the point to laugh, right? Yeah, this is the point to laugh. You know, they're just, they're quite knowing. They're cerebral. And a lot of times it's my worst or it's my least favorite type of audience. Because, you know, they're thinking about what is. the right thing to laugh at. Yeah, yeah.

And are detaching themselves from visceral reactions because they're subscribed to the New York Times. So I'm trying to poke at them a little bit more. Sure, yeah. I mean, that's the deal with so many things these days is you get the feeling that you are supposed to read from a script with a lot of things. And the truth, of course, about all of us is that we're blurred in many ways and there's a lot of crossover in the Venn diagram. in one way or another. Yes, and to look at that crossover, to examine it in yourself. So I used to perform on a lot on PowerPoint.

And I had a sort of scale of white supremacy that actually starts in Walthamstow. Because there are a lot of people who imagine that they are somehow absolved from, you know, the ones with the flags, they're just not like us. Like, I've got a black friend. I'm not that person. But you live in an up-and-coming area. So I would have people, especially in the audience, as I'm painting the picture of how blurred these lines are. And I'm thinking to raise your hand if you live in dollage.

And they're thinking to themselves, oh, right, okay, I know where this is going. Yeah, I'm going to be a white supremacist any second, aren't I? Yeah, any second now. I'm going to, this is bad. And it's like, you know, the freeholders, they have a lot of trouble bearing the brunt of their privilege. And not that privilege is anything to really, really feel bad about. I mean, we cannot, the circumstances of one's birth, I think we're just going to have to get over it. But I am really excited about radicalizing, not just the white working class, but the small plates brigade as well.

How would you navigate it if you were then in somebody's sites who, was talking about your privilege and your class background and I would you see this is the difference between our class warfare yeah in Nigeria versus here in some ways I find it very intriguing that you would be arguing with somebody that you're the poorer one in the group it's extremely it's unheard of where I'm from you are rich and you're rich proudly you're wealthy and you're wealthy with Vim. You wear it on your wrist and it's probably going to be an AP. If you're a bit, it will be a Rolex. That's not. We're not really trying to do that right now. But I find it so interesting that you would be ashamed that you were raised with means. And I think

if more people were just like, look, cars on the table, I can't lie to you. There were staff in my house. they were staff in my house and that's why i prefer taking an uber yeah well the the reason that you would downplay that is because currently so many of the conversations are around power yes and power dynamics and who suffers for your privilege and yes you know yes and and i think that i feel a sense of responsibility especially in my context because our class warfare is so stark And I find that it's a conversation I have with, especially like the Nigerian 1%. Our conversation is going to, when it starts properly, is going to be really scary. Because we have so much to lose.

So much to lose. But you need to be willing to lose it. That's just how it works. And I think guilt is very useless as a guilt and shame and not, they're not propulsive. And I find that a lot of the conversations around. And if somebody pointed out my privilege, we would start, we would have a conversation about it. So when you're tweaking the anxiety nipples of the audience there, talking about the white supremacy spectrum, what are you hoping that they will go away with? Is guilt not the most likely thing that they will feel?

And this is where I'm really trying to, and this is like my assignment to myself is like, how do you? how do you mobilize a group of people? And it might not be to mobilize on a sort of broader political scale, but just like it might be mobilizing thought, it might be expanding frames of reference, for example. But I'm trying to move away from confrontational, a sort of finger-pointing spreading of suffering, because that's what I was trying to do initially,

was to make people feel bad. And I wanted to be the only black, person on the lineup and I wanted to make people feel horrible about themselves, which is not nice and it's not useful. And it would be funny because there's a sense of self-flagellation that I get from certain types of audiences, but they want to feel uncomfortable and they really like it. And I'm now trying to figure out what are starting points that come with a levity and a curiosity, you know, like a kunk-esque questioning, with a bit less of an edge where you're like the intrepidant explorer philomena kunk that is yeah i haven't heard the

expression kunk-esque before oh yeah i love kunk oh she's great i'm obsessed um but that kind of like questioning where you yeah it feels like a stupid question but it blows the whole thing wide open and i think coming with that curiosity and trying to play around with that where we don't have to make each other feel terrible about the circumstances of our birth but we can begin to interrogate it actively and I think that's what I'm having the most like I guess fun with but also trouble with like how do I approach this with a whimsy or with a in good faith yeah yeah yeah with some warmth and some affection for the audience exactly which is what like swings and roundabouts was that was what made it so easy to perform was like it needs to be in

good faith. Yes. Yes, please. Yep. Yes. Do you have dietary requirements? Dietary requirements? I mean, how do you mean?

So any allergies or... Not really. I mean, the older I get, the more I have to think about how my gut is going to cope with certain things. Right, okay. How did you come to this world? Is it vaginal or caesareum? Oh, I think it's vaginal. Vaginal, okay.

Do you know if it was spontaneous or induced? I don't know, I'm afraid. I don't have that information. My mum never chatted about those kinds of things. Okay. When's your birthday? 7th of June, 1969. 7th of June, 1969.

June is tall. I'm being heavily profiled here. It's a Taurus? No, Gemini. Gemini? The dirty, two-faced. No, let me tell you something about Gemini's. Yeah, are you into all this stuff?

Of course. Of course. Let me tell you some about Gemini's. A Gemini man obviously should be born in jail. I have to work his way out. That is clear. But every once in a while, that duplicity is actually manifesting as spontaneity. You get to reinvent yourself every two hours.

It's not that you're capricious, it's that you're curious about all the flavors that life has to offer. You contain multitudes. Oh, mate. There's another one for the poster. Oh, yeah. Thank you. Yeah, seriously. I'll take all of that.

No, I never felt too much like I was too-faced in that way. What's your relationship with lying? Lying, don't lie. I don't lie. really, really try hard not to lie. Do you feel uncomfortable when you do lie? Yeah, I really, really try hard not to. It doesn't roll off the tongue. No, I don't like it. I really, it really scrambles my mind when I see people doing it. I don't get it. I do get it, obviously. I'm not mad. But for yourself. But for myself. And it effectively, I mean, I'm really talking it up. And at some

point, I will be caught in a massive lie and then this will come back to haunt me. But... An illegitimate child. It does, yeah. But, um, it does offend me and it's one of the things it's one of the big things that offends me about trumple still skin i just think don't lie don't lie and when it's like your when it's the main tool in your in your arsenal i just think oh no don't lie it's it's so it there's a visceral reaction there i don't want to go out with any liars i don't want to hang out with any liars no how about you do you love to lie i yes i so i do i do love i love i love female liars and I love a I love it as a tool of psychological warfare okay but I do think that

it is a tricky one but I think honesty as a sort of moral high ground I have a lot of issues with it blimey why'd you say that um I think sometimes how do I say this without sounding insane. Without honesty shaming me. Without honesty shaming you. No, I love what honesty represents or what it could represent and a purity of existence. But I think in where we found ourselves, and me in my day-to-day, I do use lies as a way to preserve my energy and to conserve my energy. And I think structurally, lies can become very useful for the disenfranchised. Hmm. Can you give me an example? So, for example, if I had to lie to assert my humanity or my position in a space,

so for example, this is wrong, but I once told a sort of more senior colleague in a work environment in his Irish, white Irish, I told him that I'd read Ulysses cover to cover. And it immediately endeared me to him in a way that made my working life very enjoyable. Did you know enough about Ulysses to fake it if he said, oh, I love Ulysses too, because I'm Irish? Yes. Let's chat about it. So that's the thing with me. When the lie is sort of an existential one, the research would be extensive.

So there was cliff notes open After you told the lie After I told the lie You immediately had to go and actually read Ulysses Immediately And you know with And that's a beat of a stream of consciousness like that Where it's like you have a much wider birth

When it comes to Pretending that you're familiar with that text But It's one of the The most beneficial lies that I've told and for me that is an example

of more where that came from Yeah yeah I mean as we're having this conversation I'm thinking of all the ways that I probably do lie and I have lied and I've just not thought of them as lies because they seem non-harmful

Yes Even the stuff like when I'm If I'm in an Uber and the driver's asking me questions That's exactly the scenario I was thinking of My story has changed 2,000 times Yeah yeah Mother of 2 I'm having to head to the GP to get, you know, the little one she is, she's just picked up something so flemy at school.

And let's end the conversation there. It's a funny space, isn't it? Because you do suddenly feel emboldened to just try out a new persona, an entirely new life. It's delicious. I've done that as well. I used to do, I used to do an accent. I used to talk, I've talked about this before, but sometimes I would. I would speak like that.

I'd say, yeah, I've had a hell of a day, I'd tell you. And I'd start talking about what I'd been up to. And I think I would pretend sometimes that I was an A&R man for a record company. No, you wouldn't. Yes, more than once. And I'd talk about some of the stuff that I'd been listening to. Partly it was a build-up to, sometimes it was a build-up to putting on my headphones and checking out of the conversation.

Because the way you even slipped into that as a sort of, it felt very natural to you. Yes. And my favorite kind of dishonesty is the one that creates worlds where you actually believe what you're saying, you know, but it must be harmless. It needs to be, it needs to be the kind of lie that you meet a person and you're a value girl. You just, so they think you're American for the entire exchange and that's just it. you have to believe that, that that is your existence. You believe the backstory and you get some entertainment out of it. Sure.

I mean, the thing is that if they found out you weren't... Oh, they think you're a psychopath. They think you're a psycho. Also, they would be slightly humiliated for having believed you, maybe. Yeah, they would. And it would take some undoing if that relationship was going to continue. Now, here's a boring question for you. I don't think you've asked me one.

boring question. Oh, bless you. Has there been a conversation with your powerful representatives about the Googling problems associated with Ayawaday as a comedian and the fact that the hits you're going to get are probably going to be Richard based? No, but I found it, you know, without Richard Ayawaday, introducing myself would have been a nightmare. Yeah, that's true. He's been a massive help.

All right, that's good. To me. Do you see him and David Letterman chatting? in America recently on stage? That sounds like a nightmare, I'm sorry. I really do. It just sounds like a nightmare. Why?

I think men talking at scale is just so jarring. It's really jarring to me. At scale. You mean in front of an audience, a big audience? Yeah, just the sort of male perspective amplified. That's a very general statement, men talking. And as you say that, I feel like

I need to double down. You know, men should not be public facing. They should be, they should, they should operate with a sort of demure and measured. Apologetic. Apologetic. You're scaring us. You are scaring us. And I think that is just that kind of, oh, I'm sorry.

I just, it really robs me the wrong way. I mean, not to push back too hard. You're my guest. but I don't think Richard Iowaday and David Letterman are the big problems there. You know, in what you're talking about. In what I'm talking about. It is a, and I'm able to, I'm able to concede on that of what is a personal gripe and what is a sort of systemic issue that threatens our existence.

Obviously, this is the latter. And the moments at which we get less men talking, then we can move forward. Fair enough. I promise not to do this podcast for, well, I won't be doing it in another 10 years. How about that? I think you should. So, you know what? This is where nuance is really beautiful. Okay. Right. And I think nuances are overused in the West, for sure. But I think you're great. And I have forgotten that you're a man on several occasions over the point of this duration of this experience

you could be anyone thanks very much yeah and you have a sort of you there is a there is a sort of divine femininity that is existing in this space oh this is good I love it that I obviously brought into brought in but you fostered it sure it's on my poster

that's going on the poster you're gonna can you can you um a divine femininity can you please record a song that's titled that. Sure. Define femininity. That's what I got. Just ask my wife.

She'll tell you. Oh, yeah. He's got a lot. It's in the way I'm so patient and kind with people who simply refuse. To put back my favorite kitchen knife in the block where it belongs I don't know why that seems to be so hot

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No continue Thank you Hey, welcome back Podcasts. That was Ayawade Bamboye talking to me there with a little bit of divine femininity at the end. A reminder, Ayawadi's show Swings and Roundabouts is at the Soho Theatre,

although I think this run is sold out, but she's back in January and I think tickets are available for those shows. There's a link in the description to the Soho Theatre page. Anyway, I'm very grateful to Ayawadi for making the time to come and talk to me, really enjoyed meeting her, and I hope our paths will cross again before too long. Well, they will, because I'll go and see her show. But after that, in the description, as well as that link to the Soho Theatre,

there's a couple of short videos, there's her just after she received her Edinburgh Award. There's that short spoof of This Morning, written by Ayawadayi and starring her alongside Daniel Rigby. There is a video by the author of the 48 Laws of Power, Robert Green, who is obligingly summarizing all 48 laws of power in under eight minutes, which I think is very reasonable.

And there is a trailer for The Lost Bus, directed by Paul Greengrass, and starring America Ferreira and Matthew McConaughey. who was going to come on the podcast to talk about the lost bus as part of his publicity junkets, but in the end, it didn't work out. But anyway, the reason I included the trailer for the film was that I think you should see it.

I mean, obviously, I have no obligation to the actual film company, but I watched the film over the weekend, and it was very good. But it's based on a true story about a bus driver who has to navigate a bus carrying school children and their teacher to safety through the 2018 camp fire, which became the deadliest fire in California history. And one of the larger communities it raged through was called Paradise out there. There's a documentary by Ron Howard called Rebuilding Paradise,

which tells you more of the true story of how it happened. but the film presses the extreme special effects drama button pretty hard and has some stuff of them driving through this hellish, fiery landscape, which I don't think is completely accurate. But anyway, accuracy aside, it's really a terrific film. What else can I tell you? I mean, you know, usual stuff.

Come along to a show. I'm going to be in Wimbledon, this front. talking to Samira Ahmed about I Love You Bye, showing some clips. And that'll be the penultimate book show that I will be doing this year. The final one will be at the Royal Festival Hall on the 26th of October, which is a Sunday. And I will do my best to cover different ground in case you fancy coming to the Wimbledon and the Royal Festival Hall show. I'll try and make them as different as possible.

I'm sure there'll be a little bit of crossover, but I'll play some different clips. And, of course, at the Royal Festival Hall, there will be live music, which they won't be at the Wimbledon show. However, there will be Samira Ahmed, which there won't be at the Royal Festival Hall show. There'll be a different moderator. This is too much info, isn't it? Anyway, link in the description for those shows. What else can I tell you about? Well, at some point, I'm going to be on House of Games.

I mean, I have been on House of Games. I've no idea when it's going out. I recorded a couple of episodes of this podcast, one in particular in which I talk about my experience on House of Games quite stupidly because now I can't put it out until the House of Games episodes have been out. And I was also a guest on another podcast on which I talked about it as well, which was a real pain in the ass for the host who had to then go back and cut out the section. with me talking about House of Games. Anyway, that podcast, by the way, was The Trouble With, hosted by poet-comedian Molly Naylor,

N-A-Y-L-O-R. And that episode is now out. Join Molly and Adam Buxton for a conversation about sensitivity and the way it impedes and sometimes enhances our creativity. Also touched on stagecraft, comparisons,

twisters, Lolly, not the weather, and how to relax and accept yourself while not wanging on about relaxing and accepting yourself too much. Thank you, Molly. I'll put a link to Molly's podcast in the description. I was honoured to join her. She's a fellow Norwich dweller. Okay, that's it for this week's podcast. There's only so much. Inconsequential buckles news that one person can take, isn't there? Thanks to Seamus Murphy Mitchell for his invaluable production support. Much appreciated, Seamus. Thank you to all at ACAST, who help liaise with my sponsors and keep this whole show on the rod. Thanks to Helen Green. She does the illustration

of my face for this podcast and for my books and for the album. She's amazing. Thank you, Helen. But thanks most of all to you. I don't know what I do without you. I'd probably carry on doing this, actually, but just with less listeners and no sponsors, and then I'd stop. So I'm very grateful to you for coming back. I washed my fleece fairly recently, so I don't think you'll find it too funky if we have a creepy hug. Come here. Hey, good to see you. Hope you're doing all right. Until next time we share the same sonic space. Please go carefully. It is ridiculous out there. And for what it's worth. I love you. Bye! And like and subscribe

Please like and subscribe Give me like a smile and a thumbs up Nice like aёт for me bum's up Give me like a smile and a thumbs up Nice like a pint for me bum on Subscribe Like and subscribe Like and subscribe

Like and subscribe I can subscribe Thank you. I. I mean, I'm going to be. I'm a bit. I'm a

Thank you. Thank you.