THE ADAM BUXTON PODCAST - EP.262 - JOHN FOXX

Episode Date: October 24, 2025

Adam talks with British musician and artist John Foxx, about a few of the pioneers of electronic music, forming the band Ultravox!, working with legendary producers Brian Eno (Bowie, Talking Heads, U2, Coldplay, etc.) and Conny Plank (Kraftwerk, NEU! Cluster, Harmonia, etc.), the relationship between music and comedy, his encounters with Keith Richards and performance artist Leigh Bowery, what he and Fall frontman Mark E Smith would talk about on their drinking sessions together and how his parents didn't screw him up.Conversation recorded face-to-face in London on 11 March, 2025List of the music clips used in this episode on Adam's website HEREADAM TALKS 90s TV AND PLAYS MUSIC @ LONDON LITERATURE FESTIVAL @ Royal Festival Hall, Sunday 26th October 2025, 7.30pmThanks to Séamus Murphy-Mitchell for production supportPodcast illustration by Helen GreenListen to Adam's album 'Buckle Up' Order Adam's book 'I Love You Byeee' Sign up for the newsletter on Adam's website (scroll down on homepage)RELATED LINKSMETAMATIC - SIGNED 45th ANNIVERSARY GREY VINYL - 2025 (BURNING SHED)JOHN FOXX - UNDERPASS - 1980 (YOUTUBE)ELECTRICITY AND GHOSTS The Visual Art of John Foxx - 2024WENDY CARLOS - VOCODER QUESTIONS (WENDY CARLOS WEBSITE)STRANGE JOURNEY: THE STORY OF ROCKY HORROR (TRAILER) - 2025 (YOUTUBE)LEIGH BOWERY - SOUTH OF WATFORD PT 1 - 1986 (YOUTUBE)LEIGH BOWERY - SOUTH OF WATFORD PT 2 - 1986 (YOUTUBE)LEIGH BOWERY - SOUTH OF WATFORD PT 3 - 1986 (YOUTUBE)MICHAEL CLARKE AND MARK E SMITH ON NEWSNIGHT - 2011 (YOUTUBE)THE DAMNED - NEW ROSE - 1977 (YOUTUBE)LEIGH BOWERY GIVES BIRTH AT WIGSTOCK - 1993 (YOUTUBE) Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I added one more podcast to the giant podcast bin Now you have plucked that podcast out and started listening I took my microphone and found some human folk Then I recorded all the noises while we spoke My name is Adam Buxton I'm a man I want you to enjoy this, that's the plan Hey! How are you doing podcasts? It's Adam Buxton here. Thank you so much for joining me once again out here on my Norfolk farm track, Ramble, with dog legs. That's Rosie, my best dog friend. She's here in Fine Fettle, and she sends lots of love. Don't you, Rosie? I'd be grateful if you didn't patronise me. I apologize. And we're just walking around the noise. part of the fields. Well, it's a rush hour out here in Norwich so you can hear all the cars on the

nearby A-11. Hey, thanks a lot if you came out to one of the music shows that myself and the Adam Buxton band did in Norwich last week at the Arts Centre. That was great fun. I mean, honestly, I'm having the time of my life. It's a dream come true. To play with talented musicians on stage to be singing my ludicrous songs. And it was lovely to meet some of you afterwards. I hope we'll do a few more shows at some point, and I hope you can make it along. It's a fun night.

Anyway, listen, I'm not going to ramble too much at this point, because I want to tell you a bit about podcast number 262. This one features a conversational ramble with a British pioneer of electronic music. He's a composer, artist, photographer, teacher and author. It's John Fox. Foxfax. Born in 1948, John grew up as Dennis Lee in Chorley, Lancashire, an industrial town in the northwest of England, and his early years with a very model, not to say, cliché, of northern working-class life in the 50s,

brought up as he was by a mother who was a mill worker and a father who was a coal miner when he wasn't earning extra cash as a boxer. but by 1974 John was studying at the Royal College of Art in London where for one project he hit on the idea of designing a band that band was Tiger Lily they were only called Tiger Lily for a short while John later renamed them Ultravox! That's Ultravox with an exclamation mark at the end and it was around that time that Dennis took on the stage name of John Fox Ultravox recorded their first album in 1976

with production assistance from a couple of people who would become behemoths in the world of music production Steve Lillywhite and Brian Eno John made two more albums with Ultravox Actually he made one with Ultravox and then one with Ultravox because they lost the exclamation mark

for the final album There was 1977's Ha Ha Ha and 1978's Systems of Romance. And that last one was produced by Dave Hutchins and the German producer Connie Plank, whose work with German bands like craftwork,

Noi, Cluster and Harmonia helped define what was then referred to as the kraut rock scene in the 1970s. That was slow motion from Systems of Romance, the last Ultravox album to feature John Fox, who left the band after a grueling 1979 tour of the USA. And soon afterwards, channeling influences like the artist Marcel Duchamp and the writer J.G. Ballard,

John recorded his first solo album, Metamatic. Released in 1980, Metamatic was one of the very first British electronic pop albums filled with what John called minimal primitive techno punk. The album, which remains hugely influential 45 years later, was a success and even boasted a hit single in the form of underpass. That was underpass, from Metamatic. In the first half of the 80s, John released three more solo albums, featuring lusher and less austere musical styles, and set up his own recording studio, The Garden in East London, which over the years played host to artists including The Cure,

Depeche Mode, Tina Turner, Nick Cave. In the latter half of the 80s, John took a break from making music for a while to concentrate on his graphic design and illustration work, selections of which were collected in the book, Electricity and Ghosts, the visual art of John Fox, which was published in 2024. John was drawn back into the studio by the revitalization of electronic music in the 90s, and since around 1995, he's released albums of Dance Inflected Electronica with Louis Gorge, Gordon, dreamy atmospheric music with the Cocteau Twins Robin Guthrie, and gorgeous reverb-heavy ambient piano music, both solo and with the late American composer Harold Budd. That was a bit of John Fox and Harold Budd.

from the double album, Translucence and Drift Music. Since 2011, John has also collaborated with British electronic artist Benj and Northern Irish composer and producer Hannah Peel, who together have produced five albums as John Fox and The Maths. Their sixth album is due for release next year, 2006. Earlier this year, I got the opportunity to interview John at the Norwich Arts Centre for the third annual synth-east electronic music festival and I so enjoyed spending time in John's company

with his lovely soothing voice and his generous and positive take on the past, creativity, his musical adventures and his family that I invited John to record another conversation for this podcast which we did in London back in March of this year and we talked about John's encounters with Connie Plank, Brian Eno, performance artist Lee Bauer, and Markey Smith of the fall, as well as London life in the early days of punk,

whether Vienna is a dirty word for John, and much else besides. But we began by talking about a few of the other pioneers of early electronic music. I'll be back at the end with a recommendation for a doc about a classic cult movie that I think you may enjoy, but right now with John Fox. Here we go. We'll focus first on this, then concentrate on that. Come on let's chew the vat and have a rambled chat. Put on your conversation coat and find your talking hat.

Yes, yeah. La la la la la ra la la la . It's strange looking at the charts now and looking at the awards ceremonies. I mean, it is dominated by electronic music. A lot of it made by women as well. Yeah. Like they are the big artists now, Billy Elish and Charlie XX and Little Sims and people like that. Well, that's sort of what's exciting in music now.

Well, yeah, it's been a boys' club for too long, I think. So it's about time the women came through. I'm working with someone like Hannah, you know. Hannah Peel. Yeah, Hannah Peel. Yeah, it was great education in how good people can be. Then there's Serafina Stier who worked with us as well. Who's very interesting, eccentric composer and songwriter.

And before that, well, there was Delia Derbyshire. Of course. Who I suppose was a pioneer. Yeah, and Daphne Oram as well. from the BBC electronic workshop. Yeah. When did you first become aware of electronic music yourself? It was art school.

The art school edge that we used to get. You know, people are say, hey, listen to this. You know, everybody would gather around and have a, and check it out. You know, it's that kind of atmosphere. So you'd hear these records being passed around. There was Terry Riley's record that it wasn't really electronic, but it was beginning to be abstracted in that. that sort of way, you know, sequenced things. Oh, Wendy Carlos, of course. Yeah, that was a big

record that Wendy Carlos, the switched on bark one. That's one of the records that changed everything really, because people began to realize how good a job you could do with synthesizers. Before then, they'd been slightly eccentric toys, really. The Wendy Carlos one was evidence that they had to be taken seriously, I think, even by serious musicians. But it was very powerful as well. And it was competing with rock and roll in a strange way because rock and roll was coming of age you know there's heavy metal was just beginning to happen you know stemming out of the kinks and all that because that was the first power chord work and the who so new records really had to compete with that kind of gutsy power and when you played switched on back really loud the bass was fantastic

it was really excellent and there was nothing else to match it is quite incredible Switched on Bach, debut album by American composer Wendy Carlos, 1968. To me, I think the first time I heard those sounds, they sounded sort of comical to me almost. Yeah, it was always a fine line. I mean, the first time I heard Altabond by Krafovo was around this time. And I thought it was just a funny. novelty record. It made me laugh because it was also a complete

take of Barbara Ann by the Beach Boys. It's the same song. It's the same song. Just transposed into German motorways. Right. And I thought it was great. I thought it was very witty. So the line between novelty records and serious electronic work was very thin. And the other ones were Perry and Kingsley.

Did you ever listen to them? No, no. Jean-Jacques Perret did Gossipo Perpetuo, which is one I really love. So that's partly electronic, but it's also just a mad edit job that he's done there, I think. I think that's late 60s. Yeah, pre-sampling, editing, which is what I saw Connie do later on with Holger Chuck Eye's record. Connie Plank, this is. I just watched a documentary about him, actually.

Ah, I haven't seen that. That came out a few years ago, 2017, directed by... his son? Yes, of course. His son took over the... Stefan. Yeah, yeah. Did you go out and work with Connie Plank? This is with UltraVox, you worked with him. Yeah. And did you go and work with him in his studio in Germany? Yeah. Yeah. So what was that like? Whereabouts was that? If my memory says me, right, in Noyn, Kurchin, out in the country near a lake, and I used to run down to the lake in the morning sometimes. And Connie had a studio in an old barn. And, Connie had a studio in an old barn. And

we come out of these very rarefied studios in London. Suddenly you're in this old barn with hay bails stacked up in the corner as a bass trap and all that. And it was wonderful because Connie knew exactly what he was doing. He didn't need the official version. But everything he'd done to the barn worked beautifully. So it sounded great. And it was very true.

In other words, when you walked away with the tape, it still sounded the same in other environments, which didn't often happen in London studios, I have to say. Yeah, the documentary is quite interesting, made by his son Stefan. He didn't really know his dad very well. Yeah, I remember Stefan when he was very small. He was a toddler when we were there. He was only 13 when his dad died.

Yeah. And it's quite moving because he feels like he didn't really have much of a relationship with his dad. He saw very little of him. And he interviews various people that Connie worked with, including Holger Chukai of Cannes. Yeah. And he basically just says, well, your dad didn't really have much time for you. It's quite a hard scene to watch. Oh, well, I didn't get that experience when I was there

because Stefan was running around a little kid and he was watching what was going on. And Krista was there, his mother and so on. So it was a sort of family operation, really. I know when Olga was there, Olga Chukkah, because I went in the studio when they were recording, that album. What was that called? And there's a Persian love song on it that I remember was lots of edits. Is that the one with Cool in the Pool on it? Yeah, yeah, that's the one.

Yeah. And again, that moves between almost comic, parodic stuff and serious electronics, that album. Holger was very involved and obsessed by what he was doing. And I remember walking into the studio when they were editing tiny pieces of tape together that they got from the radio and retuning them by putting their fingers on the tape loops to speed them up or slow them down in order to get the sounds in tune with the track. And it was a fantastically complex work they did there,

all before sampling. That's called Movies, that album. Yes, that's right, movies. So for people not familiar with tape loops, because this used to blow my mind. I used to hear people talking about tape loops this Oh yeah, we use tape loops. And I thought it was a phrase describing some bit of software

or I don't know, some machine or other. But it is literally a loop of magnetic tape. Yeah, you bring it out into the machine. So instead of going onto the reels, you make a loop with a pencil, your finger, a tubular metal chair, or whatever. And then if you want to tune it, you pull it tight or let it go a bit slacker. that changes the speed that it passes the playhead

it changes the pitch therefore so you can tune to a limited degree and I remember walking into the studio was like a spider's web of loops that were around every available metal chair stood on tables and so on and you couldn't walk between them

because they're all moving it was it was great and I remember listening to it and thinking God this is a masterwork how could you even conceive of doing this kind of work and they were they were totally obsessed they've been working you know 19 hours a day on this thing for for weeks so hot that's cool in the pool that's cool in the pool Chukai, produced by Connie Plank.

How was it that you came to be working with him? Well, I like craftwork and also liked Mikhail Roter as guitar work and Noia, particularly. I mean, Noir was the one that really got me involved in listening to German music properly. N-E-U exclamation mark. So I pinched the exclamation mark for UltraVox. That's where you got the exclamation mark. Yeah.

and my theory was that psychedelia had fled to Germany after it became declared uncool by John Leiden because he said he hated the Pink Floyd and I thought yeah that's fine but there's a lot of stuff there that needs to be reviewed at some point and the Germans got it and changed it into something else because they allied it all with synthesizers properly and made a spectrum of music that goes from craftwork

right over to Klaus Schultz and Tangerine Dream and all that via Noya, which was, and Noya were punk before punk. And they were one of the reasons I started the band. The New York Dolls and Noya were the two precipitants, if you like, for Ultravox, really. Yeah, because it has that very insistent beat, that so-called motoric beat. Do-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D, which is very punky. Yes. and oddly enough that is reputed to come from the shadows

from it's called the Apache beat because all the German guitarists were fond of the shadows they'd all listened to Hank Marvin in their youth and picked up guitars And in England, it's the same thing. Jeff Beck and Jimmy Page and everyone will tell you one of the reasons they started

was because of Hank. The Shads. Unsuspected seminal artists. The interesting thing, about them also is, for me, was that they were written by European emigrants from the war coming over and getting work in Tim Pan Alley in London, Denmark Street. So it was a fantastic mixture of cultures there. And it was totally focused in London at that point. Soho music, really. A combination of Italian guitar effects with the echoes. And then the guitars were American. And then Hank was

very English. And the authors of the music were probably Jewish, European emigrants escaping Hitler's Germany. So you had this fantastic combination of cultures that made that music. So wonderful land and frightened city and man of mystery, all my favorite tracks when I was a tiny kid. These were all the shadows. Yeah, these were all the shadow's tracks because they were sinister. They sounded sinister to me and mysterious. And sort of cinematic almost like the theme tune to a thriller or something exactly i always used to think of them as music from the film and the film was in my head so they they were terrific prompts to imagination for a wee kid like me who loved science fiction and you know forbidden planet was coming out

about the same time i think i was about eight so it would have been about 1955 or six right who did the soundtrack for forbidden planet oh yeah um yes DD and Googling Soundtrack album by Bebe and Louis Barron Barron, yeah and they were experimenting with oscillators they were almost uncontrollable

at that point because they weren't attached to keyboards so it was randomised music and I found it really thrilling when I heard that I didn't know what it was but it was very exciting and the film is a beautiful film Forbidden Planet is gorgeous to look at Forbidden Planet soundtrack, 1956, the first entirely electronic score for a film. I can still remember the night, I went to see it at the plaza.

in Chorley, Plaza Cinema. I remember walking up to the cinema and then walking out in a days after I'd seen the film. Did you go and see it with pals? No, I saw it with my parents. We used to go about three times a week to the cinema then. Did you?

And there were five cinemas in Chorley at that point. So you had a great choice. And it was pre-TV, really. I mean, they did exist, but we couldn't afford one. But you could afford the cinema. There's only one and six to go in. What did mum and dad make a forbidden planet? Oh, they liked it.

They just love cinema, and if it was technicolor and beautiful, they really enjoyed the whole thing. So it was like a night at the opera for them. It's a great film. I mean, it really is so curious, and part of the reason it seems totally out of time is because of that soundtrack, which creates this really strange atmosphere. One of the jarring things about seeing it now is that Leslie Nielsen is in it, who later became famous for the Naked Gun films. Yes, that is strange, isn't it?

Yeah. I remember seeing a rerun of it recently and thinking, oh, God, yeah. You keep expecting it to do a joke or fall over or set someone on fire by accident. Yeah. It's very difficult for comedians to make transitions, isn't it? Tell me about it, John. An old friend of mine from Chorley was a guy called Phil Kool, who was a comedian. The Rubberface Man.

Yeah. Well, we were at school together. and I used to go with him on his early gigs and it was a bit like Billy Connolly he started off as a folk singer and then began to tell jokes and the jokes got a better reception than the songs eventually

so he became a comedian Is he still around Phil cool? Yeah but he retired he just got tired of the whole thing and he made enough money so he legged it off to a place near the Lake District up in Lancashire he won good for you Phil

he was doing really well for a time I remember like when I was growing up up in the 80s, you couldn't get away from his rubber face. Yeah, yeah. And I remember getting a panicky phone call from him because he got this TV series via Jasper Carrot. Right. And he'd been doing his act for a long time around working men's clubs, you know.

And I said, how's it going, Phil? And he said, bloody hell, I've run out of material. I've only done three shows. He had a six-week run, you know. And he said, they've got to have to get a script writer. I've never done that before. and you didn't realize how much material TV used up and you can't repeat it

whereas when you're playing live a live circuit you go around and six months later or a year later you come back and people still laugh at the same jokes you tell them in a slightly different way and move things around and the whole thing becomes slightly different but on TV it doesn't work like that it's all rigid and recorded and people say I've heard that one before so you can't tell it again

well it's even worse now because of YouTube So every single thing you do ends up online. I mean, I say that. It's only a problem if you're really huge, I think, and people are looking it up. There's loads of stuff I've done that's floating around, but it's, you know, like two people have looked at it or something. So no one really, you can carry on doing it

and no one's going to complain too much. Yeah. But, yeah. Yeah, it must be quite tough. Because jokes are such singular things, aren't they? I always felt like it, you know, you go and see a band play. and you want them to play the hits well exactly and so why is it that different with comedy you know

you especially if you're familiar with a routine like I don't know um I'm trying to think of a comedy routine all I can think of is Woody Allen hitting the moose in his car yeah and so if you go and see Woody Allen back in the day you'd be thinking come on do the moose routine yeah or John Cleese whoop in the car uh-huh branch you know that's it's that sort of thing yeah where you're long to see it again and it's still funny. I think so and there are some comedians who like there's a comedian called Brian Regan who's huge in the States and he will have a section at the end of his live show where he takes requests and people will call out do the thing about the whatever and so he'll do the bit. Yeah interesting. But the idea I think with most comedians is you can't repeat jokes because

it relies entirely on the surprise. And once you've heard the punchline once that's it. It's done. I don't think that that's necessarily true because it's about the performance. If you're into the performer, something like, say, John Clee's whipping the car is not a joke, is it? It is a routine. Yeah, exactly. That's like a piece of performance. It doesn't have a punchline or anything like that, whereas a joke does. Sure, a joke. It depends on that moment of surprise, doesn't it really? Yeah. It's the same with songs, isn't it? Because people like to hear songs again. and bands always when you talk about it with other musicians and they say big mistake last tour

I played all the new stuff nobody wanted to hear it everyone goes to the bar even people like the stones they bring out a new album no one wants to hear it yeah you just want to hear satisfaction again of course but then you get people like Bob Dylan who are determined

to frustrate all the audience's expectations yeah yeah and even if they do songs from their back catalog good luck recognizing them would you get fed up of playing the hits at any point i mean presumably you still go out and play now and feel under pressure to play underpass oh always yeah and do you think oh god it's underpass time no i know i've never i've actually always enjoyed trying to do it as well as i can yeah in my own way and maybe you move something around and you discover something new about the song sometimes but But it's a matter of enjoyment.

There are a few ones I don't enjoy because they're too complicated to enjoy. And they get discarded. So it's the kind of simple, effective ones that work best live. And they're the most fun to play as well. So everyone enjoys the audience, enjoys it and I do as well.

But I know I remember Pete Townsend complaining about having to play my generation. Because sometimes people get pinned into a certain time. or a time of their lives that they don't want to repeat. So I can understand that too. Especially if you've written a song like My Generation, which is basically all about this isn't going to last. This is a flash in the pan.

Hope I die before I go old. Hope I die before I become some old twat who has to play this song over and over again to make a living. And there you are. And every time it's back. Everyone's shouting for it. Exactly. Play the one about what a twat you are for still playing this song

even though you're old. Hello, my friend, it's good to see you again I've got to say you're looking great I love what you've done with your nipples and your knees and your shiny bald pate Okay, I'm gonna play Poo-la-la-la-la-la-la-poo-poo-la-poo-poo-poo-poo-poo. Bebib-be-be-be-be-be-bib-biby-biby-biby-y-y-hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Okay, okay, tell me about the memories it brings back and anything else that you think of no one to talk with all by myself no one to walk with but I'm happy on my shell ain't misbehaving

saving it for you oh that's enough yeah well that was one of the first records we ever made and um... nineteen seventy five yeah

and it was done to make enough money to buy billy a keyboard Billy Curry Billy Curry yeah because we didn't have any money at all in those days and it was supposedly

the soundtrack of a sort of weird poem film that was a collection of 1920s if you can imagine Charlie Chaplin with his trousers down I have imagined him many times And so it was all cold from illicit film from about 1910 to 1920, I think. Who made the film?

Well, we had a manager, and he had a friend who made this film, and they needed some music for it. So they said, how about getting your guys to play it? So we did. And this is when you were called Tiger Lily. Yeah, just briefly. I mean, we changed the name every week about that point. So that was one week we were called Tiger Lily.

Were you still at art school at the time? Yeah. This was the Royal College of Art at this point. yeah and so it was there that you kind of got into movements and ideas like fluxus for example yeah and through that thought i'll tell you what i could do is rather than paint a picture or do a performance piece and in that way is make a band is that right exactly yeah yeah what was fluxus uh it was a group in new york who did performance art but it covered a wide range from what yoko ono did right through to people who would become comedians and actually do a spot in a nightclub.

But they were fabricated comedians, if you like. They were actually artists who were performing as comedians. So it was a kind of interesting, mischievous infiltration. That sounds like Andy Kaufman's kind of thing. Do you know what I mean by Andy Kaufman? Yes, I do. Yeah. Yeah, it's similar to that sort of thing where you actually do the thing properly and as well as you possibly can.

It's like Mrs. Merton as well. You know, the English version is a bit like that, isn't it? Where someone does a subversive act, and you have to figure out what they're up to. Yeah. And it's fun. I mean, Bowie was a bit like that, wasn't he? He was swapping personas all the time and saying he was an actor, not a rock and roller, really. So they're all those kind of edges.

And even in what you might call a genuine rock and roller, there's a lot of, it's not really acting. It's making yourself into the sort of person you'd like to be and live the kind of life you imagine you'd like to live. And, of course, when you do attain it, it's a tragedy usually. But it's great fun. The pursuing of it is great fun, I think. Because it was around that time that you assumed your name, your stage name, John Fox. Yeah, yeah.

Because the lad from Chorley wasn't adequate enough, really. He was a lad from Chorley. And I needed someone who was a bit more urban. better lit and better looking and more intelligent, really. What were the other names that you considered? Oh, John Vox was one, of course. And then there was, well, the names for the band, there was the Damned.

Oh, you got to the Damned before them? And then we discovered, no, that the Damned are already got it. Oh, okay. The Damned were one of the very first of that generation of bands. They were around before anyone else. And I had a great respect from when I found out that there was a band called the Damned. I thought, that's a damn good name. So I have to find out more about it.

him and I did and they were brilliant. And I remember their record that came out before anyone else's new rows. And there was an actual video made in Super 8 which floored me. I thought it was fabulous. Oh yeah, that's them down in some sweaty club, is it? Yeah, it's great. It's a great piece of work. You know, the whole thing. They've set the tenor for the whole punk movement. It's brilliant. And they did it way before anyone else. London was pretty dead, really, at that point. Everything had fled the streets and gone into the hit parade, leaving a vacuum behind. So I came down to London with all these plans and went clubbing, and there was nothing going on at all.

There was a band called the Winkies, who I thought were pretty reasonable. Was that Eno in the Winkies? Well, he produced a record of theirs a bit later, you know. Okay. And then Kilbin and the High Roads, who I thought were interesting, but... With Ian Dury. Yeah. I thought they were good, but it wasn't my kind of music.

It was going towards jazz, really, which is what I wanted to avoid, and I wanted things to be a bit rougher than that. And the feel goods were good band as well. So there were good bands around, but they were not quite what I wanted to. It was pub rock, wasn't it? It was pub rock, yeah.

There was nothing else around, really. That was one of the reasons I started the band to make something that would have a scene. And then suddenly, everyone else was doing the same thing. You know, I remember going to let it rock on King's Road, which was what became sex later on. Malcolm McLaren and Vivian Westwood's shop. Yeah, and they were selling Keith Richards type clothes, you know, velvet trousers with wine stains and that kind of thing. Harvey Weinsteins.

Yeah, like old. You could say, you might say. Rock, old rock guy clothes. So they hadn't gone into all the bondage and zip stuff yet. And then they changed overnight into sex and it. it became a different scene. And then they wanted a band to publicise that and work with it. And that's with sex pistols, of course.

Yeah. I forget what was the thing that catalyzed that switch for them? How did Malcolm McLaren and Vivian West would suddenly get into all the zips and the torn clothes and all that stuff? I really don't know. I remember just going in there with Billy, actually, when the band was just beginning and investigating it because it had changed. And we thought we were going and see it. I remember chatting to Jordan when she was in there. And having a feel of the rubber stuff that felt like skin.

It was really strange. Yeah, that weird latex stuff. And I could imagine being zipped up in it, but I had no wish to be. You know, it wasn't my kind of thing. You didn't want to get zipped into one of those gimp outfits and then inflated with a pump. And I'd seen Alan Jones artwork, you know, which was the appealing side of it, a very beautiful woman involved in that kind of thing. thing. But this was the more sordid end of it, so it didn't really interest me that much.

But I thought it was an interesting scene. You know, there were people floating in and out at that point. And I remember seeing Leiden and Mick Jones and a few others at gigs, particularly there was a Patti Smith gig that was one of the first punk gigs. And all that lot were there. And you could pick them out of the crowd because they all looked different to everyone else who was there, really. What did you look like at that point? Oh, I was pretty sort of normal. I was very fond of grey at that point, so everything was grey.

And I had a floppy hairdo, a bit like a sort of bowie hairdo, I think, really. David Silvian type do. Yeah, it was that kind of period. It wasn't punky. Office shirt, top button done up kind of thing. Yes, exactly. It was that kind of thing, yeah. Metamatic front cover.

Yeah, pre-metamatic, yeah. So I was trying to be not long-haired and dennymy, which was, I was. against and I'd been through a sort of James Dean phase. I'd also done a ripped t-shirt one way before when I was in the first year at Royal College, it should be 73, I'd seen on the waterfront for the first time and it really struck me. So I immediately got a leather jacket and a t-shirt which I ripped holes in and I used to walk around London wearing that. What made you rip the holes in them? Well it was the fight scene at the end of Brando's experience along the waterfront, you know, got battered and he was he had this ripped t-shirt and i thought wow that looks great so i

ripped my t-shirt in sympathy and i was in my head i was a young brando walking about down bond street maybe vivian westwood saw you and thought hello well oddly enough there was an encounter on the tube with vivian westwood when i saw her heading towards me and i knew who she was and i fled because i she was too intimidating you thought she was going to zip you into a thing? I wasn't sure what she was up to. And she was doing a lot of fashion shows and wanted models, so she might have been interested in something like that way. And I didn't want to get involved in that kind of thing. Okay. Because one of the models, when I was at Royal College, there was a life model. It was a very beautiful girl we used to draw. And she used to do fashion shows,

and she always wanted me to come do some modeling with her, which is a great compliment. I thought was lovely. But I had no wish to do that. Really? Yeah, yes. I mean, you did. You looked extraordinary though. I mean, you have a very strong look anyway, but you did look very angular and modally in that way. I suppose I did, but it's not something I could ever do. I was too self-conscious. It's hard enough being on stage. Well, I was going to say. That's why I had to invent John Fox to do it for me. Okay. Because I, the Dennis Lee wasn't capable. And with John Fox with two X's, why did you put the extra X on there just for X? Charlie and Inaz Fox. who I saw supporting the Rolling Stones in 1964, I think, at Wigan.

I went to the gig, and they came on first, and they were great, The Mockingbird and all that, great songs. And it was really seminal, because they reminded me a bit of that Chuck Berry era, but more elegant. I remember Charlie had this great white sparkle suit on. He looked fantastic, and I thought, yeah, that's a great look. I always enjoyed that kind of dark glamour. somehow, you know, that kind of slightly sinister

glamour. It's what David Lynch got right. It was glamorous but there was some kind of sinister under-tow. The seedy underbelly. Yeah, yeah. But you didn't dress up in sparkly suits with Ultra Box, though, did you? No, no, that was very different. Not really punky, but

sort of, it was more kind of homemade stuff, really, I think. What did you want to sound like? Did you have some template in your head that you were emulating when you played those first ultra-vox gigs and made those first albums? There are always things that you aspire to

and feel pleased when you get near to it. And there were bits of Roxy and bits of Noya and bits of Roy Orbison and bits of shadows, echoes and bits of more outlaw things, like Link Ray and The Who as well and so on. It was a bag of stuff that you carried and you had to sift it all.

And that took a couple of years. It does with every band usually. And then you kind of eliminate the stuff that's unnecessary and the stuff that's inappropriate and the things you look foolish doing and you find in the end you distill what you're about. And that usually takes three albums and it certainly did with us.

Because magazine, who were around at the same time, Howard DeVoto's band, they were writing songs that sounded quite similar structurally. I love that band. Yeah, me too. And so did you listen to them in those days and did it put you off that they were on the same sort of musical patch? Or did you feel encouraged by it? It is encouraging, but I wasn't conscious of them when we were around.

Because there's a lot of instances where people come onto the same sort of thing independently. And that happened with electronic music, for instance, because when I made mathematics, this is jumping way ahead, of course. but I didn't know there were people around who were like the Human League and Cabre Voltaire was coin yourself actually. But there were pockets of people all over the place who were beginning to make electronic music at roughly the same time. It's because it's something in the air that you sense and we all sensed it.

I can't you see where I am Speaking of Brian Eno, though, how were you able to get in touch with him? Because he had released his first solo album in 1974, having left Roxy Music. Here Come the Warm Jets, I think was the first one. Was he someone that you met in your travels at art school then? No, although he used to drop into the Royal College when I was there because he was going out with Carol from ceramics. Okay.

And I'm sure I remember him coming. in with the feather outfit that he'd... The feather outfit that he wears on top of the pots for a Virginia plane. Yeah, I think so, yeah. Maybe he'd just come from top of the post. Maybe it's a false memory, but I've got a feeling it did happen. Yeah, yeah. But no one took much notice because things like that happened anyway.

Yeah. So it was an art college, you know, so you were expected to dress like that for lunch. Then I met him shortly afterwards because when we signed to Ireland Records, he was signed to Ireland Records too. And he was wondering about it in the canteen one day. And the canteen was a big place full of rasters and Bob Marley's crew and all that, you know, because they were all, they always come in every day

and smoke Ganga for a couple of hours before going out in the evening. Yeah, because it was mainly a reggae label at first, isn't it? Yeah, it was Chris Blackwell's West Indian connection because that's where he came from and that was the kind of music he loved, you know. So he signed Mali and all the crew, really. So it was a big social place and we used to go and hang out there.

Whereabouts is that, West London? Yeah, in St. Peter's Square in Hammersmith. Okay. A nice old big Georgian house is a beautiful place. So hanging about in there, saw Brian a couple of times, said hello and all that. And then said, would you like to produce us? Because we're just rehearsing at the moment. And he said, okay, well, I'll come down, have a listen.

And this is when you're ultra box with an exclamation. Yes, we just started. Yeah. Yeah, we just named ourselves and got going. Yeah. So Brian came down with his little recorder, recorded a few songs. And then called us up and said, yeah, okay, let's go ahead. So we got the budget, 10 grand, I think,

and went into the studio a couple of weeks later and started. And was Steve Lillywhite involved at that point? Yeah, well, Steve had made, we'd already made about half the album with Steve because we used to sneak into Marble Arch Studios, which was at Marble Arch just overlooking High Park, wonderful location. We used to sneak in in what was called downtime, when there was no one else in, in other words, which is usually at the weekend,

Sunday mornings or Saturday evenings or something. And we record. And Steve was then at virtually a tape hop, an apprentice engineer. You know, he switched the tape machines on and off and that kind of thing. He went on, of course, to become one of the biggest producers of the 80s. Yeah, he was great.

Even right at the beginning, he was wonderful. And we all got on, he was like one of the gang, you know, so we all used to go and pile in and make some music and then go out and have a drink. It was good fun. I took those tapes over to Ireland, got a recording deal and a writing deal, which my writing deal provided the wages for the band.

So it was a good arrangement for everyone, really. When was it that you were sharing studio space with the Rolling Stones? That was underneath the socialising space in St. Peter's Square, Hammersmith. The studio was underneath. And Blackwell knew, Jaguarie. I think and Jagger wanted a place to do some recording I think they were assembling a live album so uh we were the cover band the studio was booked in our name yeah and they gave us half the money and they took the nights and we took the days and I would wheel Keith Richards out of the control room in the morning because he was always fast asleep in a chair like was he putting in the hours yeah he did he did all the work okay at that point anyway and Jagger would We'd drop in with Jade, his daughter, who was a wee girl at that point. Keith was comatose whenever you would encounter him.

You didn't have any chats. Yeah, we did. He used to come in and grab his things and say hi and, you know, and have a very quick chat, and then he'd drive off in the Bentley. Right. And so he was friendly. Yeah, he was a lovely guy. It was great.

It was a very pleasant character. How long was the recording process with Eno and Lily White then? Three weeks. Oh, really? Quite quick. Yeah. And during that time was when Bowie rang Brian to come and do Lowe and all that. Oh, wow.

He got the call. That was 76. September, I remember, because we finished the recording on my birthday. So it would have been sometime in September. Yeah. 76, yeah. Right, of course. And then he, so then he, you know, goes off to Paris and they record outside Paris and release

low early in 77. Yeah. There you go. And I remember this might interest you as a. Bowie fact. As a super nerd, was when Brian came back, a mutual friend of mine and Brian is Russ

Mills, who's an artist. Oh yeah. He does record covers. He did a book called More Dark Than Shark. That's right with Brian. Yeah. I mean he's an artist anyway, but he gets asked to do covers and he's done lots of things from nine inch nails to Japan and so on.

What Brian brought back was lots of tapes of yarning that went on after recording. Everyone sit around and have a drink and stories would be told. And there were various session guys who were telling stories about their

encounters with famous rock stars and everyone was sitting around with lots of hoots of laughter and surprise and so on about Roy Orbison's dad for instance and legendary stories which I cannot repeat. I can not repeat. But Brian

brought these all on cassette and Russ had some of these. And Russ had some of these. and we used to play them at night and have a listen to Bowie and Coe sitting around telling stories about their past. Oh my God. Which is hilarious.

You know, they're all dead fruity. So you can imagine. Roy Orbison's Dover is a particularly plumb one. But that's as far as I can go. And those are all taking place in the sessions below? Yeah. Wow, that's so incongruous. So you were working with Eno on the first ultravots.

album. Yeah. And was he up to any of his kind of studio tricks with the oblique strategy cards? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we used those and they were interesting, and unusful. So these were the cards that he created with an artist called Peter Schmidt that were supposed to help people get beyond creative blocks or just introduce different ways of thinking about the creative process. You'd pick a card at random and read what was written on it and then respond however you felt to that command. or that suggestion. And some of the commands were, honour thy error as a hidden intention.

Yeah, that was the famous one of Brian's. Yeah, that's a good one. Repetition is a form of change. Yeah. They were a help because in a studio, it's a very much a psychic hot house, isn't it? And there's a lot of pressure on you to finish.

And people can get into arguments about how things should sound and so on because everyone's passionate about what they're doing. So it's good to have that kind of randomness come in and say, okay we're stuck what do we do and you bring a card out and even if you don't react to it or you hate it

or I mean you must react to it in some way that's the interesting thing it's like tarot cards isn't it the value is that they force you to make a decision just by their presence and maybe if they weren't there you wouldn't make the same decision so they do have an effect and it's interesting oblique strategies work in that way that no matter what they say

you must react somehow out. So they can free the dam. You know, they can make you change direction slightly or make you see things in a slightly different way, allow you to see things in a slightly different way, just as tarot cards or any of those are the randomised, so-called magical things do. Were all the band on board with those kinds of artistic games, or did some people find it sort of infuriating? No, it was fine because Warren canned the drummer and I were reading The Dice Man by Luke Reinhart, I remember, which is about a man who decides to run his life by a throw of the dice at every point. So it was the same sort of thing, really. We were quite used to that idea.

That was huge that book, wasn't it? Yeah, it was a very, very interesting idea. And it leads into all kinds of mad situations, of course. So when a bleak strategist came out with, oh yeah, that's another, another dice man, isn't it? Let's have a go. So after working with Connie Plank and Brian Eno, you never felt like you needed to go back and do more stuff with them and no not really because it's a learning process isn't you pick up lots of things

and then I always find with every album I'm impatient to get on with the next one because that's done when you finished it's finished and everything you've gathered from that all the mistakes and the things you want to improve on you're just dying to get going on the next

one so I never wanted to go back it's like going back to an old lover isn't it You don't want to do it, really. Yeah, but every night and you get. Well, sometimes. Have a couple of drinks and then. So similarly, I suppose, a desire to keep things fresh made you think after three albums with UltraVox that you were leaving.

You're taking your exclamation mark with you. Actually, you'd already removed it by that point, hadn't you? You and I spoke on stage at the Art Center in Norwich. You were talking about the fact that you just didn't necessarily love the lifestyle after a time. And being on tour in America just got a bit dreary and repetitive. Is that right? Yeah, it was touring's hard work. And I mean, some people love it.

Some people love being on stage. Many people do. And I noticed there are lots of different kinds of rock and rollers. Some who really enjoy that public persona and going out on stage. And they come alive. It's like the rest of their life is leading up to that moment. And then there are the others who find it. hard work or find it intimidating or difficult in some way. I'm more like that, I think. And I found

that going on stage was fine. I could do it and I could even enjoy it. But all the other stuff, you know, the 22 hours of sitting in a vehicle or try to amuse yourself in an hotel room somewhere or wandering around a foreign city, which can be fun, of course, but it gets tedious after a while. And you feel like you could use that time in a better way. And that's That's how I felt. And I could see my life slipping away on tour, because we did a lot of it. And I used up a couple of years of my life sitting in vehicles and sitting in hotels, and I thought that's enough. I've got to get on with things now. You also do get locked into this thing of album tour, album tour, write, the stuff, record, album tour again.

And it is a treadmill. and matter how famous you are how much money you might make out of it or what kind of wonderful life it might be initially. It does grind you down into a pulp. I'm sure.

Were you also wrapped up in the band's profile where you sit up going, why aren't we bigger? Were you frustrated by things like that? Or were you happy just to keep doing what you were doing? Yeah, I mean there was an element of frustration because you always have the record company

wanting a hit record. Right. And of course, there's always that pressure because they've invested in you and they want their money back. And they don't just want the money back. They want it back quintupled

or 100 tupled or whatever it could be. So there's always that pressure. And it's uncomfortable. You feel you're in this machine and it does feel like a machine. It is a machine. And it's a great one.

It's produced lots of wonderful things. But there are also other avenues. And it was interesting to watch Eno, for instance, negotiating his way through it all in various ways. And I was always more interested in that kind of music, that kind of slightly off-centre bit. It comes from art school, doesn't it, where you like the fringe things and you like the odd stuff. And you're always looking for things that don't quite fit and do things that aren't recognisable immediately. Right. That's always the challenge.

And of course, that's death in pop music. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's not what you want to be doing to get the next hit single. No. You want to do stuff that sounds a bit like everything else. Yeah. And, well, the thing is, it's so tantalizing, isn't it? Because the ones that hit really big and have the longest life are the things that are nothing like anything else.

So that are totally original. And everyone's like, whoa, what's that? And that really sticks in the mind. And then thereafter, everyone is chasing that thing. Yeah. Do a thing like that. Yeah. And doing slightly worse versions.

But yeah, it's always more fun to be the one who's trying to do something weird. And you pay a penalty for that because there is this thing of familiarization in a media world, isn't there? It takes a while for everyone to get used to it, in other words, and to figure it out and then I enjoy it. And there are very few things that are totally original that hit right away. Yes. They're usually recognized after some years. Yeah, well, nothing's totally original, isn't it? But it's all, something seems very original because it's used bits of things you weren't aware of previously.

So it's all to do with timing as well, isn't it? It's like when is the right moment to appropriate this thing from 20 years before that everyone's forgotten about? And suddenly, bang, it hits and it catches fire. I said to you at the beginning of our conversation that I was just going to fire random words and phrases at you. I haven't really been doing that. We've just been talking more naturally. But one of the words I was going to fire at you was Vienna.

Yeah. That was a record that That was a record that Ultravox Mark 2 made with Connie Plank. I didn't realize that was him. Yeah. And then, of course, that hit pretty big in 1981. Yeah. After you'd said goodbye to the group and said, like, keep the name.

Good luck to you. and parted ways. But was that a weird experience being surrounded by Vienna in early 1981 having left the group? Not really, but I think it was an interesting moment because you realize two things.

One thing, I really enjoyed the fact that the basic design had gone on to be really successful. It had carried on. It had a life of its own, in other words. So the whole project was successful in that sense. also the other side of it was that it gave all of us what we wanted in the end which I thought was a wonderful thing how do you mean well I got my experimental bit

sorted and with enough money and exposure to do what I wanted and that was a great gift you know it's a great gift to be able to do what you want to in life and I could do that and the band had done that too and the band particularly Bill I remember wanted some hit records. So that was the whole thing. Go off and do that. So we both got what we wanted out of that whole situation. It's not often you can do that with four or five people.

It's the magical thing about bands is that you can all devise a new existence for yourself, if you like. And we could do that. It was a wonderful moment to that. And I remember getting a glimpse of that when Gary Newman had his first hit because that was really the moment everything changed. And I knew everything changed.

everything was changing because Gary had been around and I remember hearing his first record. Actually, it was Russell Mills who played me his first record and said, we like this because it sounds a bit like you. So I said, okay. And that would have been Tubeway Army back then, would it? And I listened to it. It didn't sound, to me, it didn't sound like me at all. But I thought it was a good record and I enjoyed it.

And then he had that massive hit as number one for ages. Our friend's electric. Yeah, it's fantastic. And I thought, God, it's a great sounding record and this is it, you know, the doors are open now. All the electronic stuff, people, record companies, will now take it seriously and get interested. And that's what happened.

Press still didn't like it, of course, and that was all so interesting. But there were whole scenes built around it, you know, blitz and all that. That started off after that. Right. Rusty was great because he was the first modern DJ. Rusty Egan.

Rusty Egan, yeah. And Steve Strange were the architects of the Blitz scene? Yeah, and Steve was the face. You know, he had the clothes and the look. Yeah, Steve Strange of visage. Yeah, really inventive moment. Did you used to hang out at the Blitz? No, no, I went there once.

I knew Rusty slightly because he used to turn up at gigs sometimes. And Billy was very much in that scene. He liked it. I've never been a scene person. I never joined him with any scenes. I visit them and I love them. But I never feel like I want to be part of them. Whereas Bill was straight in there. He loved it. And then they did visage and that was a success as well. The real sea change was Gary's record though. Yeah. That really altered everything. That's great. And he was obviously so influenced by you. He was listening to systems of romance and thinking, oh my God, how can I sound like this? yeah and that was a great thing because he said that yeah and that was very useful often people will hide their influences i imagine because they want people to feel like it was all them or sure or they're insecure it's usually insecurity isn't it yeah yeah well they they don't want to be accused of of copying someone you know and of course we all copy each other like crazy all the time and that's what makes things interesting he seems like a sort of in the best way

quite a guileless person, Gary Newman. He is, yeah. He's totally honest and clear about everything. And it's a delight talking to him because you always get the truth. It's wonderful. I'm going to go back to my firing names at you thing now. Lee Bowery.

Lee Bowery, yes, brilliant. A real artist, I think, and a lot of fun. I remember seeing him dressed as a huge black and white polka-dotted poloni. first time in the fridge in Brixton and I was really impressed by what he'd done so imaginative and then there's a great film

of him walking around New York he's suddenly elevated himself to about eight feet tall as this kind of robotic doll and you could see all the reaction of the passers by it's just a wonderful piece of film and that again this is like fluxus ideas too where you become something else you change your whole personality and even your physical shape,

which he was a genius act. I mean, that was his real talent, wasn't it, to transform himself into these strange creatures. He would be full glitter one night or, you know, the spotted poloni or something. And then he gave, I remember when he gave birth to his wife. I remember that too. Really, yeah.

That was amazing. Phenomenal. I'll post a link to a video of it in the description of this podcast, but it's so good. And it was an act he did quite a bit. Yes, yeah. He comes on and he's dressed as a large woman. Then he sort of lies down and...

It starts to grunt and groan. Grunt and groan. People think he's ill or having a fit or something. Spreads his legs. And then from between his legs, from between this kind of latex pair of tights that he's wearing, emerges this other woman who's skinny and bald. often painted red

and she comes out and she looks confused and then he's kicking his legs around and then they got married that was his wife yeah that was amazing and then he of course Lucien Freud picks him as a model

which is which is really a wonderful validation of what he did I think and it brought him into a completely different world and now of course he's legendary which is how he should be he inspired lots of people a spirit like that on a scene makes it into something else it's when london became remarkable you know it was london with an exclamation mark suddenly it became a magical place just because there was an imagination like that operating in it and i remember meeting him for the first time to say hello to him when

he was doing that thing with michael clark there was a thing of i am curious orange Oh, yeah, with Marky Smith. With the fall, yeah. Because I was having lots of drinks with Marky Smith. That was the drinking period of my life with Marky Smith. We used to spend a whole nights getting absolutely kaleide together. Well, I've got to ask you about that in a second. He was playing the music.

He and Bricks, his wife, were playing music for the show. So I went down to see it a couple of times. It was great. And what was Lee like? Was he a sort of fairly straightforward person? Yes, he was. He was very pleasant. He knew my music.

music and he said he liked it and he shook hands and had a chat and all that. Oh, wow. Civilized, yeah. Yeah. How did you get to know Markey Smith? Oh, yeah. We were in Venice. When I'd sold the studio.

This is a studio that you bought in the East End? Yeah, the garden studio, which was on the corner of Shortwich High Street and Holywell Lane, right at the end of Shortish High Street. And you had that at the end of the 70s and into the 80s? Yeah, yeah. and when I gave up rock and roll I sold it and to celebrate the sale I took my family kids and wife off to Venice

to stay in the hotel that death in Venice was shot Hotel de Ban on the island there so I was there feeling very happy and miles away from England when who should walk in Marquis Smith and Bricks and they just signed a deal with some record company and got a huge advance so they'd gone there to celebrate with

John their manager. So the three of them walked in and you got a Vaporetto to go into Venice from the hotel with a guy who looked like a sea captain all dressed in white. Vaporetto being little motorboat but a very posh one. Okay. With a chap dressed like the captain of an ocean liner but all in white with gloves. Very nice. So he would take you in when you wanted to go to and visit Venice so I remember being in that with Mark and saying this is most unlikely place to see you and we got talking and then we used to go off and Venice get drunk together which was great fun what would you chat about with him oh lots things about his dad about his about being a northerner mainly and what a strain it was and and how much fun it can be

sometimes what did he have to say about his dad was that a figure that leaned large in his life Yeah, because he said, I always dress smart. I always wanted to dress smart, because my dad dressed smart. And you do, don't you? You don't want to go down the pub not looking smart? It was that kind of thing. You know, he had this whole ethos worked out for his life, his daily life. And it was great fun.

He was a real contrarian. He just liked to take the opposite view to whatever was happening at the time. And that was great fun. I don't have the courage to do that. I mean, I might get sticky sometimes, but not. usually fairly affable, and he's completely opposite. But when we got together, I used to enjoy doing the same team if I could. And I remember throwing a very heavy ice tray at me one evening

when I accused him of singing like Iggy Pop, you know. So we used to have this to and from, but he was just great fun. And his wife, Bricks, was lovely as well. She came from quite a well-off family, so her mother had given her all the addresses to visit him. Venice, like Harry's Bar and all that, you know, so... She's American. And she's American, yeah, yeah.

So it was a lot of fun. It was a great fun period until they broke up and then that all, that was about a year or two later. So in that year or two, I used to meet Mark all the time. He used to come around when he was at a loose end and we'd get the drinks out and we stay up all night chatting. Would you listen to music together? Not much, no, but we talk about it a lot, mainly about what we didn't like. Yeah.

That's not totally surprising. Yeah. So that's the mid-80s, is it? Late 80s. Late 80s. It was getting Manchester-y. Oh, it was before that. Yeah, it was before that.

Before that. All that happened a bit later on, yeah. He was all very critical about anything that was orthodox. He accused me as sounding like Peter Gabriel at one point, so we had a long argument about that. And that went on. I remember that was an all-nighter. There's worse people to sound like.

Oh, yeah, I've got a great respect for Peter, but it's not quite my area. Sure. So I had to tell Mark exactly what was. But he always got back to saying, well, keep it simple. Whenever anything got too complicated, you know, get rid of it. And it's not advice, it's just the way he lived his life, I think. You can always see that in his work. Whenever things got more complicated, he'd get rid of things

until he was just left with a couple of guitarists. or he'd abandoned people on the motorway and that kind of thing and he'd start again and he was a real tyrant as well with his artists and very hard to work within the studio I think

I went down to a couple of recording sessions and the engineers would be tearing their hair out quietly and it would never be clear about instructions he'd say I want that less woolly and then he goes to the pub and he said come and get me when you've done it

because he was a menace like on stage you could see him wandering around and randomly unplugging people or turning them down or just sabotaging them it was all about like how can I sabotage everything yeah yeah and again I recognize the symptoms because it's that kind of fluxus thing isn't it is his performance art and he would never admit to that but he actually knew what he was doing the whole thing was a performance When he was giving interviews, he knew that was a performance. When he was on radio, that was a performance. And he never dropped that.

Even when he was drinking, he was on. You know, I remember meeting Hilda Baker once. She was a comedian from the 1950s, legendary made films and all that very British, like George Forambi and that kind of era, but not quite so famous. And a friend of mine, Daryl, had a flat off Tottenham Coat Road. And he said, you'll never guess. who my landlady is and I said no I can't guess and he said well come up and have a drink tonight so I walked in and there was hilda baker she's about three foot six tall ferocious woman and always

what they call on always acting she's always in the part she was singing songs that she'd written she said are you in music and i said yeah she she immediately went into this song from the 1930s that she'd written and carried on and she was telling jokes and all was on. And Mark was like that. Mark was one of those characters. He was like a musical character. But genuinely, absolutely

like that. If he'd been born in another era, he would have been a music hall character and he would have done the music halls and he would have been very good at it. And it would have been in his instinct to do that. I always felt that about him. But he was a modern version of it and he did it beautifully.

It's like Lee Bowie with the dress. up you know he was the same kind of figure he was a kind of theatrical in any other area he would have been Oscar wild or something like that that must have been an amazing show the i am curious orange show did you ever see it in the end yeah yeah a couple of times actually it was it was really good i like michael clark too because i just think he had very good ideas because ballet's kind of interesting but suffocating all these things are ossified it's like classical music you get this repertoire it's hard to move out of that But when someone does, it's magical.

And Michael Clark had all the skills. And yet he could bring it into another ear. And he's very fond of punk and all that as well. So it made for something magnificent, really, I think. And then Lee Bowery on board. And you've got all the visuals worked out, no problem. Yeah. And then swap a little Markey Smith chairy on the top.

Marky Smith's music. What a combination. Crazy. Beautiful. When we spoke in Norwich, we were talking about your upbringing and your childhood in Chorich, we were talking about your upbringing and your childhood in choice. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I was fascinated by the sound of your parents. I suppose because I'm so used to, well, I love my parents, but I do complain about them. I see, no, I don't complain about them. I just talk about them a lot. And I'm sort of on some level mildly, you know, trying to work through various hangups or screw-ups about them. Oh, well, everyone does that, don't they? We all do that. I suppose so. But it didn't sound like you did. It sounded like you had a more or less straightforwardly, lovely relationship. with your mum and dad? Oh, I did.

They were good sorts, you know, and I got great love and respect for them. They're marvellous people. And I come from a very good family. They were a big family of sort of Irish origins, but Irish, Lancashire, Yorkshire, mix, you know. And when I look back on it now, because, you know, I've only had that one family,

so I don't know what it's like to have another. But I do value it. I realize how in moments of instability, it can really ground you. And it grounds you anyway because if you try to be a bit pretentious about anything, you get shouted down right away,

no messing. I remember going back home and saying, Mum, I'm on top of the pops tonight. And she looked at me and she said, oh yeah, do you want a cup of tea? And it was totally unimpressed, you know, so we sat and watched it.

She said, hmm, not bad, she said. How old were they when they had you? 28, because my dad came back from the war a bit late. He came back in 47, no, 48, the beginning of 48, and they got married right away. And I was born in September. Right, so he'd been in the war. And was he a coal miner before he went to the war?

Yeah, he was also interested in being a mechanic. And he was very mathematical. He had a good mind, really. So he became a mechanic on an aircraft carrier. He joined the Air Force and repaired planes. and he was on an aircraft carrier in the Gulf. So he saw quite a lot of action. And he did describe some of the things they had to do.

Planes would come in and crash on the deck because they'd been shot up and they burst into flames and the pilot of the burnt. And they had to clear the deck so they had to push these burning planes over the side into the sea to allow the next plane to come in

that was always equally shot up as well. So they had this terrible job to do. Yeah, that's beyond horrific. It is terrible. But then there were good moments in the war when they'd get to Sicily and they'd all go for a swim and that kind of thing. So it was 50-50, great camaraderie and all that. And then Dad came back, went back down the mines again because the wages were good. And we had a corner shop that mum who worked in a mill then ran.

So she became a shopkeeper Or we became shopkeepers And that was the centre of the street really Because there was a shop at every street then And you get all the mill girls coming in in the morning And then the guys from the saw mills were coming a bit afterwards All the factory people came in And then you get knocked up at night

People would be knocking on the door Saying have you got any milk I've got my milk's gone Did you get free sweets Yeah but there was a philosophy about sweets Which my uncle Ezekiel He used to have a toffee stall on the market, on Chorley Market, instituted. And he'd say, to any kids who came to help, he'd say,

eat as much as you like. And they'd only do it once. Right. It's like the smoking thing. Yeah. You have to smoke a hundred cigarettes and then you'd never want another one. Yeah. So that was my introduction and the end of my love of sweets. It lasted about two days and that was it. And in addition to working down the mine, your dad was a fighter, a pugilist. Yes, he was. Good one too. Yeah. And the litany was 110.5. lost one drew two I think amazing and that brought in extra cash yeah but it was also something you like to do he was he was good he wasn't an aggressive man not at all but he had this kind of innate confidence people knew he could handle himself it's that kind of dignity that

fighters have which is a thing I love to see and I can spot it by the way because my dad was like that. And you were never like that? You never wanted to get in the ring? I was never dignified. No, I did get in the ring once and that was it, you know. Yeah, it was a disaster. I stood there all spindly with these big boxing gloves on, wondering what to do. And then this kid zipped over and pummeled me immediately and I fell over. Although I could, I did get into fights and I never lost a fight. I'm good, I'm glad. But that was what you did. Yeah. I mean, that was the we were brought up you know you had to fight and that's i mean that's so alien to me i did everything i possibly could to avoid getting hit fist fights yeah anything like that was like who was it oh yeah

i'm reading this i'm still reading a book about linden johnson the president and he was something of a physical coward as well and there's a very um damning description of the way he would defend himself whenever he got into aggressive situations and he would kind of lie on the bed and just flail he his arms around in his college dorms or whatever if he'd antagonize someone and they came over and they were like come on then linden jonson let's let's start punching each other he would lie on the bed and flail his arms and say if you hit me i'll kick you he was just a total coward it wouldn't go down well in chawley no but i was thinking i think i'd probably be like that myself and then did your parents was there any question of them thinking

what are you doing getting into this fay pop music situation and why don't you get a proper job no no but well by that time my dad died when i was about 10 years old so oh right that was that side of it ago he wouldn't have approved i remember when i wanted to have a red shirt when elvis came out and i thought wow i want a red shirt and blue jeans you know that's the way to dress he wouldn't have a red shirt you know i had to keep mine in the shed and sneak into it and climb over the wall to get out of the house to wear that red shirt. You're a shed shirt. But mum conspired in that, you see.

She dyed it red for me secretly and stowed it away in the shed. So she was always into that because when she was a kid, she used to love clothes, you know, and she always dressed well. I had a good taste, you know, a very good taste. So she was always supportive. She loved Boy George, for instance. And she liked all that glamour and dressing up and stuff like that. So there were two sides, you know, the mum's side and dad's side,

which was much more serious and tough, tough guy stuff. Sure. He was Humphrey Bogart, really. That's my dad. Okay. That's how he wanted to be. You were 10 when he died? Yeah, yeah.

Man, that, I mean, I can't really think of a worse age for your dad to die. How did you deal with that? How did he die, if you don't mind me asking? Well, he had an accident in the pit, and it broke his back. And he died as a result of that later on. So he's ill for quite a while. Yeah, it was pretty bad, really. But again, you only have one life,

so I wouldn't know what it's like to have another one. And I think kids can deal with things in ways that adults are not so good at. But it takes a while, doesn't it? Of course, these things. But I remember having an odd dream where I was him after he died and I could see things from his point of view

and it solved the whole thing in a way for me it was a kind of one of those things that happens in life in a crisis where you come through something because of, I don't know I always thought he'd directed the dream somehow but I don't want to get into all that but there was something of a kind of resolution about it which was important

And these things happen in life. We all have these experiences occasionally. He sounded like a good guy. It was. When you were telling me about him and you, what was the thing about going to London? Oh, where he would save up. He saved up for two years and then took us to London and blew the lot. And enjoyed every minute, got taxes everywhere.

I stayed in Victoria Hotel, which was expensive at Victoria, you know, big old Edwardian hotel. wonderful place so we we had a wonderful time and we went to restaurants and shows and all swam in the bath and swam in the bath yes the bath was big enough to swim in when i was a wee kid it was just marvellous because our bath was a tim bath on the yard wall you know back in shawley was really like that yeah yeah filled up with a kettle every night when dad came home on his bicycle from the pit. That was before pit head showers

were instituted. There were no showers. So he was covered in the black stuff. Wow. I mean, that's like the Monty Python sketch. It was. I mean, my life is like that. It could be a sketch. And you would laugh, you know. Thank you very much

indeed. Oh, my pleasure, Adam. Thank you. continue. Hey, welcome back, podcasts. That was John Fox talking to me there, and I really enjoyed sitting down with him and hearing his stories and just sort of luxuriating in his temperament, if that's not too creepy. And even if it is. in today's description you will find links to signed vinyl copies of the 45th anniversary edition of metamatic there's a video for underpass there's a few lee bowery videos including an episode of south of watford from 1986 hosted by hugh lorry hugh lorry seems a little bit alarmed by lee bowery and there's also a video

of one of Lee's performances of him giving birth to a woman who then became his wife at Wigstock back in the day. What else is in there? A link to Wendy Carlos's website. That video of New Rose by the Damned, which John felt was such a pivotal part of the early punk scene. Still looks good, I must say. Anyway, there you go. Hope you enjoy some of those. and thank you so much to John for making the time to come and talk to me. Before I say goodbye today, I have a documentary recommendation. I feel like I've seen a few good docs recently. I won't dump them all on you at the same time.

This week I wanted to mention one that I thought maybe might appeal to some people who were, you know, aficionados of that blitz scene and the world of Lee Bowery and things like that. And it's about a cult classic movie. Which one do you think I'm describing here? A flat tire leaves Brad and Janet stranded on a stormy night. They experience strange incidents when they seek shelter in a nearby castle belonging to Frank N. Fertre, an eccentric alien transvestite.

Yes, it's F1 the movie. No, it's the Rocky Horror Picture Show, which started life in 1973 as a hit stage music. musical conceived by British slash New Zealand actor, writer, musician, and later, original Crystal May's host, of course, Richard O'Brien. And now a new documentary called Strange Journey, the story of Rocky Horror, tells how the stage show became a massive hit, first of all in London and then Los Angeles, and then a massive flop on Broadway, and then an even massive a flop when it was turned into a film. And then a much more massive phenomenon when midnight

movie audiences of misfits and outsiders took it to their hearts, turning screenings into a blend of film, theatre and audience interaction in a way that none of the show's creators could ever have imagined. Strange Journey, which you can find on various streaming platforms now, is directed by the son of Richard O'Brien, Linus. And that and I thought, quite a nice personal layer to Richard O'Brien's story. But it also means that pretty much everyone involved with Rocky Horror back in the day, at least those who are still with us, turns up to reminisce alongside celebrity and non-celebrity fans who talk about how much the show and the film meant to them and how important it was in their lives.

Richard O'Brien is there, of course, Susan Sarendon is there. even Tim Curry appears, despite having been debilitated by a stroke in 2012, which I don't think I realized. I just sort of hadn't heard much from him, but it's good to see him there. He's still sharp and funny, and it's inspiring to see him involved with the dock. I must confess, Rocky Horror passed me by. It was never something I got involved with or particularly understood. I remember there was people at school who used to go and catch every... performance and dress up and do all the things but i was never one of those people that wasn't my scene i saw the film on tv years ago and was i must confess a little bit baffled but actually watching this dock

was really fun and it helped me understand much better what all the fuss was about and i look forward to seeing it properly in a theatre with lots of weird people one day but yeah i had a a similar experience of kind of going, oh, now I get it, with another documentary that I saw the other day. But I'll tell you about that on another podcast in the next few weeks. For now, I just want to say thank you very much. Once again, to John Fox. Thanks to Seamus Murphy Mitchell for his always invaluable production support. Thanks to everyone who works so hard at ACAST, liaising with my sponsors. Thank you very much to Helen Green. She does the beautiful art work.

work, but thanks most of all to you. Hey, don't forget, if you're listening to this in time, I'm at the Royal Festival Hall this Sunday. The 26th show starts at 7.30. I'm being interviewed by Miranda Sawyer about my book, I love you, bye. Reminiscing about the 90s TV scene showing a few goofy clips, I'm going to play a couple of my songs in the second half of the show with a member of the Adam Buxton band. afterwards, I'll be signing books. There's a link in the description for tickets. I hope some of you can make it along. I'm looking forward to it. Until next time, we share the same outer space. Please go carefully. It's still all disorganized out there. And for what it's worth,

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