THE ADAM BUXTON PODCAST - EP.270 - REBECCA LUCY TAYLOR AKA SELF ESTEEM

Episode Date: May 1, 2026

Adam talks with Rebecca Lucy Taylor AKA musician Self Esteem about Bake Off stress, ambition guilt, feeling out of place as an indie pop star, feeling at home in Cabaret, the challenges of following up a hit album, booze, why men love CBT and much else.Conversation recorded face-to-face in London on 23 June, 2025THE ADAM BUXTON BAND MAY 2026 TOUR ADAM BUXTON & MIRANDA SAWYER @ CHARLESTON FESTIVAL 14 May 2026, 9pmBUG BOWIE SPECIAL @ THE LIGHTROOM 17 June, 2-4 July, 2026 PEOPLE'S EMERGENCY BRIEFING FILM AND TALK WITH ADAM BUXTON & PATRICK BARKHAM @ NORWICH ARTS CENTRE, 28 June, 2026SAILY🌎 Get an exclusive 15% discount on your first Saily data plans! Use code buxton at checkout. Download Saily app or go to to https://saily.com/buxton ⛵NORD VPNEXCLUSIVE NordVPN Deal ➼ https://nordvpn.com/buxton  Try it risk-free now with a 30-day money-back guarantee!Thanks to Séamus Murphy-Mitchell for production supportPodcast illustration by Helen GreenListen to Adam's album 'Buckle Up' Order Adam's book 'I Love You Byeee' Sign up for the newsletter on Adam's website (scroll down on homepage)RELATED LINKSSELF ESTEEM - I DO THIS ALL THE TIME - 2021 (YOUTUBE)SELF ESTEEM - THE CURSE Self Esteem's song about booze from 'A Complicated Woman' - 2025 (YOUTUBE)SELF ESTEEM - FOCUS IS POWER - 2025 (YOUTUBE)TEETH'N'SMILES Starring Self Esteem @ Duke Of York's Theatre until 6 June, 2026 (TEETH'N'SMILES WEBSITE)ADAM BUXTON PODCAST LIVE WITH MAWAAN RIZWAAN @ ROUNDHOUSE, 5 April, 2026I'll be waffling with Mawaan Rizwaan, the former YouTube comedian turned BAFTA winning writer and star of TV sitcom Juice, at the Roundhouse Comedy Festival. I don't plan on doing any other live podcasts this year, so I hope you can make it to this one. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I added one more podcast to the giant podcast bin. Now you have plucked that podcast out and started listening. I took my microphone and found some human folk. Then I recorded all the noises while we spoke. My name is Adam Buxton. I'm a man. I want you to enjoy this. That's the plan. How you doing, Podcats? It's Adam Buxton here. Now, you may be able to hear that I am not on my usual Norfolk farm track. Rosie is at home in Norfolk. I am in Hagerston Park in East London. It's a beautiful morning

on the very first day of May, 26. I've just been shot on by a bird. So much shit. I was on my bike. and I went under some trees and I did feel something plop a little bit and I thought I was just a branch wasn't a branch it was a direct hit got me on the top of my fleece

on the sleeve of my jacket there's a big old blob on my shorts that I just discovered anyway very effective work from the East London birds they sound nice but they will absolutely shit on you if you give them half a chance

Anyway, good to be here in beautiful London town. I was here yesterday filming a promo for my show's success pod, my audible show, which I now think is going to make its debut in early June, rather than this month later today. I'm getting a train to Liverpool for the first night of my tour with the Adam Buxton Band. We will, in case you haven't got the message by now, be playing a selection of songs, mainly funny, from my album Buckle Up, plus a few covers that are close to my heart.

And we'll be at Liverpool's Tongue Auditorium tonight, if you are listening to this podcast, the day that it drops. Come and join us. We're on stage at 9pm. Still some tickets left. We also have support from sonorous voiced songstress. Hope that's not an offensive description of Anna B. Savage, a very talented musician who I'm delighted is supporting us

for our shows in Leeds, Exeter, Cardiff and Bath. There's a link in the description of today's episode for dates and tickets. I hope that you can make it along. Come and say, hi, I'll be hanging out afterwards, signing bits and pieces, I think. And there's news of a couple of other live shows that I'm doing at the end of today's podcast, but right now, let me tell you a bit about episode number 270, which features a delicious helping of waffle

with musician, actor and writer Rebecca Lucy Taylor, aka self-esteem. Esteem facts. Rebecca was born in 1986 in the English market town of Rotherham, South Yorkshire, where her mother worked as a secretary and her father worked by day in the health and safety department of a steelworks

and by night, sometimes played in a local band. In 2006, aged 20, Rebecca formed the band Slow Club with Charles Watson, and over the next 10 years, they released a series of critically acclaimed albums featuring heartfelt lo-fi indie retro-soul pop power folk. Rebecca began using the alter ego self-esteem around 2015 for a variety of artistic projects, including an exhibition of paintings and prints and short films. She's an artist in all sorts of different ways. In 2017 she released her first music under the self-esteem moniker,

the Your Wife, Your Wife, EP, which set out the stall for Rebecca's unique blend of classy art pop and self-lacerating lyrics that dealt unflinchingly with modern relationships, self-love, self-loathing. And yep, self-esteem. The first full self-esteem album, Compliments Please, was released in 2019, and that was followed a couple of years later by Prioritized Pleasure, which featured the single, I Do This All the Time.

A mostly spoken word track, often compared to Baz Luhrman's Everybody's Free to Wear Sunscreen, that was named by The Guardian as the best song of 2021. There's a link to a few self-esteem tracks, including that one, in a description of today's episode. In 2022, Prioritized Pleasure was nominated for the Mercury Prize, an annual award for the best album released by a UK or Irish artist, but it was last year, 2025,

after her third studio album, A Complicated Woman was released, that she would win the Ivan Avello's Visionary Award. An Ivan Avello. It's the Oscar of the music writing world. Back in 2023, Rebecca debuted on the... the West End stage in the smash hit production of Cabaret, where she performed the lead role of Sally Bowles, opposite Cizor Sisters Jake Shears as the Kit Kat Club's MC.

Earlier this year, 26, she returned to the West End, starring in and writing additional music for an adaptation of David Hare's 1975 play, Teeth and Smiles, at the Duke of York theatre. And as I speak, that production is still running. I think it ends in early June. Rebecca plays Maggie Frisbee, once the roaring voice of 60s counterculture, but is now broken, disillusioned,

tearing through the night, fuelled by booze, fury, and a voice that refuses to die. My conversation with Rebecca was recorded face-to-face in London, back in late June of last year 2025, and there was a definite theme of ambition that ran throughout. and why ambition sometimes feels like a dirty word.

We talked about the challenges of being a parent, of someone in a band, especially if you're a musician too, talked about her experience of doing cabaret, as well as her experiences writing prioritised pleasure in her parents' home during the lockdown, and how that compared to writing a complicated woman four years later. When we spoke, Rebecca had also just finished writing a book, also called A Complicated Woman that was published in October 2025,

and that brought together notes and lyrics, journal entries and observations on life as a woman. A woman. In the 21st century. We also talked about why men love CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy. That's the highly structured, often short-term and goal-oriented form of psychotherapy that focuses on changing, unhelpful thinking patterns, emotions and behaviors. Also, because our conversation was recorded a few days before 2025's Glastonbury Festival, we talked briefly about how musicians in the public eye at that time were often expected to supply an opinion

about whether the Irish band Kneckap should be allowed to play Glastonbury, following allegations that one of the band had shouted support for Hamas and Hezbollah at a previous show. But we began by reminiscing about the episode of the Great British Baking, off for stand-up to cancer that we competed in together. And I also talked about my only other TV appearance in a while on the UK quiz show, House of Games, where winners of each day, if you're not familiar with the show, get a House of Games themed prize. Tim Key, I know, treasures his wheelie bag with the House of Games logo on it. Anyway, it was because of all the spoilers in that part of the conversation that I wasn't able to put this episode out,

which is a bit thick of me and I apologize. I didn't get any threatening messages from Richard Osmond, the show's creator and host. Actor Michael Sheen has since taken over as host, but I knew that if I blabbed on my podcast about the outcome of the show before it had aired, it would not be cool, yeah? Hello, bird.

Beautiful big magpie has just come and sat on the fence by the little pond next to which I'm standing. Okay, I'll be back at the end to tell you about those live shows. But right now with Rebecca Lucy Taylor, aka self-esteem. Here we go. Rumble chat. Let's have a ramble chat. We'll focus on that.

There was an article in the mail online after Bacoff went out. And the headline was something like, viewers appalled by the most, shocking and disgusting creation ever on Bake Off. And they had a picture of the sort of limp banana that was supposed to be my alien covered in bits of cherry juice.

It did look very sick. That was like being on the Mercury Prize there again for me. Because everyone was like, I was a bit like I'm on, you know, I'm the underdog because I was a replacement. So I hadn't practiced and I can't remember if, I don't know if you remember me going on about that.

No, I don't. But everyone knew. And then I did like so well in that second challenge. So then all the producers and stuff were going like, might be you know, might be you. I went back to my trailer and like text my mates group goats. Yeah.

I was like, I might be in with a chancey a lot. And then hopes were dashed, you know, just like that. Well, they were dashed by Mira Sayal who was in another league really. Oh yeah.

It was totally fair enough. But if I ever go on again, make something you can make delicious, flavor wise. Because that's how she picked, It was too much on the day. It was, I sort of knew in the abstract that it would be like that. Yeah.

That practicing at home is never going to be the same as being in a TV studio with cameras and stuff. Where do you think you went wrong? Well, I went wrong with the dough. There was something weird happening with the dough. And then Paul Hollywood came and stuck his finger in it at one point and just gave it a look like, oh, you're fucked. Oh. And then wandered off. It made fantastic television.

I never actually watched it. Did you watch the show? Yeah. Oh, okay. It's really funny. I mean, it should get a BAFTA. Should get a nod. Just for the highs and lows.

You were so kind to me because I was genuinely freaking out. I was worried about you. Did I look like I was in trouble? Because I love you and I was like, oh no, he's really gone quiet. Yeah, you did go quiet. Yeah. But you did really well. I was gutted.

Were you? Yeah. Because I was so sure I was going to know. nail it. Did you, do you have therapy? Um, I haven't had any since then, but I'm due for some. Yeah. And I will, it'll be mainly bake-off based. I did feel like I cared about it so much. And I was like, why? But it was fun to sort of, there's life in the old dog, yeah, like, I'm still, care about something. I still want to win. So I want to try hard. I felt like 12 years old again. So it's like horrible, but nice. I feel like you're, we're both fairly

ambitious people, don't you think? But we're part of our mania, if I can characterize it like that, is that we know that it's not necessarily an attractive quality or not an, for me, it's not a quality I like seeing in other people, like someone who's super eager to win or super competitive or anything. I don't think I'm totally over the top, but it feels weird and I went on House of Games the other day. And I really tried hard on that. How did it go? Can you say? Well, I smashed it. Good boy. Nice. And the thing is that it was such a weird feeling because I've never, ever done that before.

I've never won anything that I can think of if it's a competitive environment. Usually I try to avoid anything competitive. I've never been a sport guy or anything like that. But I won the first day. It was very close. It wasn't like a total walkover. Everyone else was good on it. And then the second day I won

Because I suddenly felt like relaxed Yeah Because I won the first one And that's all I wanted to do I just wanted to win one And bring home something for our friend Janice Who loves the show And she's like oh my God, if you win

Can you bring me back? I'll do my best So I won something for Janice And then I just chilled right out And then everything was fine It's like oh this is what you have to do You have to just relax And everything

works. Wow. Did you win every day then? Every day. No. And then I started feeling, I started feeling weird because then, you know, Richard Osman starts saying, well, Adam's the one to beat. Can today be the day the tide turns?

He's good at answer smash. But will he be caught up? And I started to realize that I was, it was such a weird position to be in. And I felt like a bit of a dick. Did you share any prizes? Yeah. Yeah. She had three prizes.

Yeah, exactly. If you do that, it's fine. Yeah. I shared a prize with the legend from gladiators. Oh, okay. What did legend want? A cake. Of course.

It's what the gladiators dream of. Who else was on when you were on? I was on with Hamid Animas Sean, who's in a show called Black Ops. Okay. Comedy show, funny guy. Lisa Snowden, the presenter. Yeah. Yeah.

and a comedian, an actor called Lorna Watson, who I have worked with before. She was good. She gave me some trouble because she was more my age. Right. That's the thing is the older people just do better. They do. It's really annoying. It's really annoying. Yeah. It's flawed. And then like what do you do? As an older person, you feel kind of like you should, especially if you've got kids, you know that you should, you don't want to be competitive dad just surging ahead.

you want to back off and give everyone else a chance. But then I was like, I'm not, I've got to go for it. That's really funny. Especially after Bake Off. Well, exactly. Don't worry about it. You know, ambition isn't dirty. No, it's not dirty.

I've been reading Eric Idle's memoirs because I'm hoping to speak to him on the podcast. Wow, really? Yeah. And he moved out to Los Angeles at a certain point because he got so fed up with the sort of critical tone of the UK and everything being so down and I don't know what. And so he likes it out in LA with all everyone being positive. And then he goes and does spam a lot in the sort of later stage of his career when he's in his 60s. And it's a huge hit. Everyone's winning Tony Awards left, right and center.

And he has the same thing. He feels like a little bit of an imposter or a bit like he doesn't deserve it or he's getting successful off the back of the other Python's work. Or there's so many ways that you can spin a success. Yeah, yeah, yeah. To turn it into something bad. Just be really good and that's it. Are you like that though? Are you?

Yeah. I mean, for years it felt like when I was in a band and stuff like it wasn't cool to be ambitious, which like infiltrated my quite badly. Like I was really like stupid me for wanting that. And then where did you get that vibe from though? Indy music in that time you had to look like you didn't care. but then people were making huge careers whilst still looking like they didn't care which I could never do

like I love working hard and trying hard and I didn't fit in but then I recently found out everyone did want to sort of get bigger but it was hard it's hard self-esteem was definitely like I literally saw drag race and read like Madonna's book and then I was like I'm being rewarded for being brilliant

isn't is, isn't bad. And I thought, like, I can't, I can't, like, I shut myself up so much for years. I was like, I've got to go and do it. Was that you always, though? Was that person always waiting to get out? And you got accidentally sucked into a cool indie band. Yeah, right.

Massively. I tried to get into drama school, didn't get in. So I was interested in that, and I was interested in, I love music. I love, like, indie music. Like a big bandhead. I'd go to gigs, and I was always, I had a band at school and stuff.

So it really could have just gone down. either way. What did you play in the band? I sang, play guitar, play the drums sometimes. And did you write your own songs or were you doing covers? In the first band. Yeah. Oh, it was a dreadful mix of originals and Damien Rice covers.

Okay. Smith's covers. Nice. We did, there is a light, I'll never go out and I over sang that. We did, um, take me out tonight. How would you do it? I can't. But imagine that eight.

18 year old girl with an asymmetrical fringe and a David Bowie t-shirt on flares. Sounds cool. Really going for it. One of the show suppers we had was, what's the Beatles song? Don't doodoo do-da-do. Come together. Oh yeah. Long, drawn-out come together with me be like,

ro-rah-r-r-r-r-you're like really bluesy. Very cool. That would have been horrible. We used to play at this venue called the boardwalk in Sheffield. And you made a door split. So that was my high school band. We would do these sets. with two originals, which I was writing about the guy who played guitar.

Well, it was so dramatic. But we used to get so many people down from school that we'd make, I remember making 70 quid ones. I was like, brilliant. I've never made any more money in music since then. It was a lot better, a lot better odds, actually, before I got into it professionally. So it was still ambitious then,

but then when I was in the band, Slow Club, and we toured. And we, you know, we were so young when we started. How old were you? Like 16. Really? Yeah, yeah. So 16, 17, we were like just playing in Sheffield. And then we got offered a tour of the Bar Flines.

Can you remember Bar Flats? Yeah. I remember thinking like, here we go. This is it. So I didn't go to, I didn't go to uni because we had this tour. And then that's the rest is history. You didn't go to uni. How did that go down with your folks?

Quite sweetly, right? My dad was in a band when he met my mom. My mom and dad are really like quiet people. They both love music. My dad's really into bands, really into like Prague. Yeah. Your dad's like Jennifer Beale in Flashdance. He was a steel worker by day and a musician by night.

He wasn't a steel worker. Was he not? But you know, it was like the Times, I think, printed that. I really wrong with it since. My mom's like, he worked in the health and safety department. No, no, no. So my dad has got like a way cooler narrative. Maybe he worked in health and safety, but I bet he was sweaty and bare-chested all day.

And probably had a hammer on his tool belt. It's a better story, but no, he was just in the office. But yeah, he'd come home. He's like an amazing Prague keyboard player. Like John Lord is his like idol. Oh, yeah. But yeah, you know, we're a close family, but there was never overblown like emotional outpourings ever.

And I was like, I am. So it was quite difficult. But my dad pulled the car over. He was picking it from somewhere. And it was on the table. I do, I go to uni. I do, I do music. And he said, you should.

do music to see how it goes, which I thought was like really amazing. Yeah. Because like a lot of parents wouldn't have supported that at all. But he must have known you were good. I mean, he'd seen you perform at that point. Yeah.

It's funny now, because obviously so much has happened now and they really enjoy it now, but there must have been some hairy years because it was a decade of not getting anywhere, really. Yeah. And being on tour and like really unregulated,

unsafe world for like a young woman. Did they ever come with you? My dad used to drive us a bit at the start. He drove us to Glasgow once and back in the same night. Whoa. Because we couldn't stay, you know. What a legend. From Sheffield.

Yeah. How long did that take? I can't remember how it was four, four or five hours. Something like that, isn't it? My dad is just so sweet. And thank God it's paid off 20 years late. Did he ever give you critical feedback like advice about the music you were making and the songs you were writing?

He did a bit of verse and then I became aware that that's not okay. He still does this time. There's a song of Manuel, deep blue okay. He was like, well, I thought there were going to be some drums coming. I was like, great. Thanks, Dad. And when he got to number five, he went, um, not bad. And I was like, ah, this is where my desperate need to please comes from them.

I see. But he's never been like, he's not hard. I know he loves it, but he's just not over the top. And I'm so over the top. But yeah. Where do you get that from then? Honestly, I have no idea. My mum is like so calm and quiet.

My granddad was like the... He was like a bit of a personality in the village. He owned the shoe shop. He was like the dame in Panto every year and stuff like that. So I think my best guess is there. There you go. It's leaking down from there. He had some show business in him for sure.

And that's where I got it. And your mum was a secretary? Yeah. So where was she working? She worked to solicitors. Then she worked at the police doing like 999. Make up for Sting. Yes.

Yeah, I'm a nepo. My mom didn't make it Sting's makeup. So I got into this. No, and then she, but my mom was home with us a lot when we were kids. And then she went back to work when we were a bit older. Which, again, I didn't realize was like amazing, you know, and kind of them. Yeah. such a sacrifice and whatnot because me trying to think about having a baby I'm like I'm not

stopping at home I've got shit to do yeah it is weird like when I think about how much my parents sacrificed and how difficult their relationship was because of all the decisions they made about how they wanted us educated especially and all the other things you know I moan about them sending me off to boarding school and things like that but they really really thought they were doing what was going to be best for me and you know I did certainly get a lot of amazing things from those decisions they made, but yeah, they sacrificed a lot in a way that I don't feel, I mean, I have a sort of cushier life in a way. Yeah. So things are easier for me than they were for them. Yeah. So I don't have to sacrifice as much as they did. Do you have to stay? Do you have to live there? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, boys. No, it was co-ed actually, even though obviously you're in single-sex dorms. We would see. We would see. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, boys. No, it was co-ed, actually. Even though, obviously, you're in single-sex dorms. We would see. We would see. We would sit. sneak across to the girl's wing in the middle of the night. It was so excited.

Nightboat to Cairo by madness was in the charts. Do you know that one? I don't. It would play in my head as we were creeping across in the moonlight. Like literally so anxious about getting busted because I don't know what I thought we would get expelled or something. Well, I'm pretty bad. It was terrifying, isn't it? Yeah, yeah.

It was brilliant. Oh, all downhill from there. All downhill from there. But the, yeah, the downside was there. But I was emotionally crippled. Gotcha. Well, that's socially more accepted. Yeah, I guess so.

If you just keep it all quiet and inside. It's good training for becoming a Tory MP, apparently. That was one of the options available to me. Tori MP or podcaster. Well, well, there's time, yeah, for a swivel. But still on the subject of your parents, though. I mean, I'm interested, especially because My children are musical, a couple of them.

Are they? Yeah. And I do give advice to one of my sons. And I know he doesn't necessarily appreciate it. I'm trying to hold myself back. But it has happened on a couple of occasions. It's tough. What's the best way to play it then as a parent?

Just be positive. I think the way I make music so specific to me, like if it was a goal that like, if I was trying to make the best prog music possible, I might be all ears. Has he recorded so? Oh, yeah. So does he ever say,

look, I've got this song, I think would be perfect. My dream is to have him play on a record. Oh, really? Yeah. Which I think I'm going to do on the next one. He once played, when I was in Slow Club, we did a little covers EP and I covered Desperado. And my dad came up and played it on the piano.

The Eagles. Yeah, yeah. It's just like we'd see my dad nervous. Right. I know the piano, like killer, horrible. I can't bear it. Because then you just seen him as a little boy, you know. Did he behave himself?

Yeah, he smashed it. But it's just a weird role reversal, isn't it? So, sorry, I've not really answered your question. But it's such a personal thing. And your parents are so in charge for so long that I think you just don't want their involvement in your work. Yeah, it's easier to keep those worlds separate. I mean, it was even weird for me when we had, our dad was my dad, not our dad,

Joe Cornish has a separate dad. But my dad was in our TV show. And we'd take him to festivals and stuff. And on the one hand, we were in. encouraging him to be silly and play along. And on the other hand, I was protective of him. Yeah. I didn't want him to embarrass himself.

But no, I do. It's something that's always been cool about. My dad, it just was the thing that united everyone. He had videos of tours. He would read books. He had so many CDs and records, and he would read them cover to cover the thing. So it's just like, I've always cared about that.

Because I suppose as a kid, you just want to do what they're. might think it's interesting. Yeah. Sometimes there's cool stuff been happening lately where like gone out of Novello all the day

and I brought my mom and dad because I knew I was winning it and because they had to come down twice to see me lose the Mercury Prize because the Queen died on the first one. Right.

Do you remember this? Yes. The first Mercury was Queen died so we all had to grow and then the second time I didn't win. So I really wanted to bring them to something where they knew

I was going to win so they came down and then we were sat on like my publisher He used to play football with Ian Gillen from Deep Purple So my dad's having a chat about that And then you two were picking up like a special award and played And then Bruce Springsteen was there

And I was like, my dad, he was never really excited about anything And you could just tell him was like, this is cool And I was just like, that's weirdly wonderful to have achieved, you know Wow I always wanted my dad to think I was cool And then now I'm like, he does That is amazing It's a long way around going, you know

Yeah I took it a bit far here. Now I'm cursed with being a musician full time. I mean, you couldn't write it, could you? It's like, oh yeah, dad, come along to the I've novellos. Yeah. I'm getting an award. It was cool. Holy shit. I know. Congratulations. Thank you. It was a funny week because I was like, I had different types of press every day for four days in a row, like three different things a day. And then it was that. And then the next day I was on stage with Sizer Sisters singing and because I'd just membrane had just flatlined. So I'm trying to learn the words for

take your mama out. And I'm like, dressed as a little sexy baby sailor. Yeah, quite right. Trying to learn words and they were not going in. I was like, never again am I doing this much in one week. But the novellas were the best bit of a very mad week. Where, as well, everyone asking me about kneecap every time I was interviewing. Oh, my God.

I'm too tired. I can't tell you what I think about anything. Why were they asking you? Just because every musician is supposed to have an opinion. Yeah. Kept getting like ambushed. Yeah. You'd be like on air and then they go, and you're like, wait a minute.

I think about kneecap. Wait a minute. Horrible. It is. I think that's so crap. I really do, actually. It's like, when's Mr. Tumble going to say something about kneecap? You know, I'm not suggesting that you're exactly like Mr. Tumble.

No, I feel seen. Thank you. I mean, you are a musician. There is a kind of a political dimension to some of the stuff you write. So it's not from total left field to ask you about it. But at the same time, it's such a crap. gotcha about this hugely complicated conflict situation and even saying that that winds people up. They're like, it's not complicated.

All you have to do is say this and then it'll all be sorted. It's people saying it's complicated that's part of the problem. It's like, oh my God. Yeah. But I got the award. Has it sorted out the situation in the Middle East? No. Not yet.

And that's my fault. This time last year, June 24, we did an event at the Crossed Wires Festival. That was fun. But by that time, I'd already seen you performing in Cabaret. Oh, yeah. I remember you coming. Yes. And that was one of the last days, I think, in your run.

Penultimate show. You started the run in September, 2023 and went through to March 24. Yeah. And it was so good. I've only been to a handful of music. musicals. Normally, I do try and avoid them. Fair. As well as the theatre in general.

Really? I've had some good times at the theatre, but anyway, it was extraordinary. Are you going to do more? Yes, I'd like to. It's just hard because cabaret is the best one. That production of cabaret is completely flawless. That's why I could just go into it so... Because I'd like to do more acting.

I really enjoy it. It's a better place for me to be emotional than me, right? And I find it. And I think it's just a challenge. How do you mean? Because I'm just so emotional. And I've, like, made a living out of how I feel for my whole life, really. And then when anyone's got a problem with that, it's killer, you know.

And it's just too close. It's just exhausting. And then to be Sally, and I understood how she felt. And I could, like, access it because it was also me. But it just had this separation that I just loved. So I want to do another play, yes. But it's hard because it's just the best one. Remind people what cabaret is about if they haven't seen it.

It's just like at the very start of, World War II, Nazi Germany is like bubbling under. And it's the last hurrah in Berlin where, you know, there's money and just sex and drugs. Decadence. Decadence and just, and queer and like just this musical about the party being over, you know. And it's so haunting and close to the Berlin now. And Sally is like, she's like a party girl who wants to have no boundaries and no rules and just keep going and not live by any societal. norms but then also

I think she's like that to save face to kind of like if she didn't get a husband and have a baby and be a nice lady she never wanted it anyway which is the most me thing ever so and I loved it and I loved being a you know

I was a Sally Bowles she's 19 in the book but I was 36 during it 37 and she gets rid of a pregnancy basically she chooses the independent option because she can't trust the man or whatever and I just thought there's something so

I was so proud to sort of tell a story of that because it's really close to my heart, you know. And there's loads of dancing and sexy stuff. And I got off with the Nazi in it. Did you? Yeah, still going out with him. Nice. I thought,

I wonder how many Sally Bowers have got off with the Nazi. With the hot Nazi. In the history of this musical. It's probably a high percentage. Well, I'm very happy for your Nazi romance. That's the bit we're going to clip out. But I so relate to. to the idea that that would alleviate your anxiety

because it's a kind of prescribed existence where so many of the complicated things that you worry about every day are set to one side and everything's organized, there's a timetable. And everything about it was not by my hand. And the only bit I had to control was my performance. And everything about self-esteem has been, it's just me. Yeah.

Which is, I can't do it any other way. But like, I don't think I realize how. exhausting and pressurized that's been until I wasn't doing it for a bit for the first time ever. Prioritized pleasure came out 2021. Uh-huh. And then was there another album between that and cabaret? No. No.

So this is the new one is the first one that you've done since Prioritized Pleasure. And I remember talking to you before Sheffield. Was I making it then? And yes, you said you were having a terrible time. Oh, yes. Why? Well, with a bit of perspective now, I think there was no way to not have a terrible time making the first album after you've had a bit of success. Did you have it in your career?

We're like, they love you on the way or then you're here. Sure. You're here. Yeah. How are you going to follow it up? Yeah. And also, like, your fair game. And the sort of brigade of people that are like, oh, actually, I don't think he's like good, actually, are ready to come, no matter what.

So, like, rationally, I knew that was coming no matter what I made. Even if I made, you know, kid A. like it was coming. People didn't like Kid A at the time. They were wrong, you see? So yeah, so I was having a bad time. But then I also now, with a bit of perspective, like, prioritised, pleasure you went, like, my life changed on that.

I went from, like, loads of time and focus on what I was doing and not really getting anywhere to suddenly, like, I mean, it was wild. For three years, I didn't have a day off. Like, it was constant. And then I did cabaret. And then I went straight into a complicated woman. And I think I was just burnt out in, like, the, purist sense. I hate like buzzy words and that, but it was really what, I couldn't think.

And I'm sure you were probably overthinking, like what you were going to do and how you were going to do it. Were there sort of critics' voices in your head? Yeah. And like, to be honest, it got reviewed really nicely and I've had a perfectly all right time of it. There was like one real stinking review and I've not, I've not even read it, but even just knowing it's there as like, rationally again, doesn't matter. I know a hundred percent know it's coming. It's just like, yeah, it's been really weird, but then when you, I'm trying to process it and think like, basically no one cared what I was doing my whole life. Then everyone was saying it was really good. I remember like watching smoke, go up my asshole.

I mean, like, I know this can't last. It was good at first on Pride House pleasure. It was really fun and I was getting asked to do things I'd always wanted to do. And that was all really fun. But then knowing that that's not sustainable sort of ruined it. And then it not being sustainable has been pretty painful. That's why I'm a bit like assessing what do I want and what do. I think.

Because there's something with music where you do well and then your only option is you've got to go bigger. If you want to go bigger, just like scientifically you have to dilute what you do in, really. If I want to be a global artist in today's economy, you've got to do a song that's going to be pretty simple, you know. Is that your priority though? Because I do remember watching the Slow Club,

which is called All Our Brilliant Friends. and you're talking about some of the things that we were talking about earlier about sort of feeling ambitious but feeling a little bit like everyone around you thought it was too jazz-hansy to be worried about wanting to get everything right and you said though you can't help but want more I want to be a big dog I mean I don't know if you literally were talking about wanting to be like a big sweet dog I'd be a lovely dog I'm sure you would be a spell happened big old slobbering golden retriever. Sorry, Carrie. But no, you were talking about, you're talking about wanting to sort of do as well as you can within your field, right? Yeah.

I watched, like, we watched every artist go just Zoom past us. Like, Mumford and son supported us. And I thought, those kids had got it. And we watched them just go fly and pass. And, you know, I was like living in the horrible flat shares in London,

you know, with no money. Just like, please, can't I just have a poster on the tube? like do this properly. And then it, you know, and then it all happened and it was amazing. I was in the pandemic living in my mum and dad's house. I was like looking to retraining as a lumber teacher. But when I made prioritised pleasure, there was a real, like, weird clarity where I was like,

you know, Rick Rubin style, like, I am now a conduit from the universe and I'm going to be that. The art came down through me. And it, you know, it really was this like peaceful place to me. And was, you know, such. changed my life. What was the first moment that that happened? And what music were you making when you felt like that? The song called I Do This All the Time.

That is what changed everything, really. Steve Lamatt played it twice in one show and I was like, hang on a minute, this one. Someone's happening here. I was like, finally. And they did. The phone just never stopped ringing after that. Like, it was amazing.

Where did that song come from? I'd always wanted to do a, you know, sunscreen, Bazelerman. That's like my favorite things ever. And sometimes I've like got on. an idea for a song and I like give myself a brief. Sometimes they just happen but I'd always had this brief in my head of like what would a sort of a woman's sunscreen be today? Yeah, I write these phone notes basically. I mean everyone does. It's not, I'm not like a master of this craft, but it was a big part of when I started self-esteem I would just post sort of two or three line

poems from my iPhone collated them. Did it one take in Sheffield like and I just knew. And the rest of album, I just knew what to do at all times. And the complicated woman was like, I knew-ish what to do, but I was second-guessing every single bit of it. I was letting other people's opinions in, which is something I've never done as self-esteem. I'm proud of it. Like, I think it's like really dense and mad, and it's done well. And people, like, I'm talking like it's been a mad failure, but it wasn't as pleasant.

And now I see, like, going into making the next point, it's like, how do you force an environment where my brain feels like it did when there wasn't so much pressure. I mean, the way that a lot of people do it is they switch tack completely. And they identify the things that everyone latched onto and they self-consciously turn their backs on them. Yeah. So for you, that would be probably that incredibly self-lacerating, very honest, lyrical style that you have.

Did you identify the bits that make you, you, or the bits that people latched onto on on prioritised pleasure? and did you think, where did these go now? Do I need to twist them around or do I need to do anything with them? Or was that part of your self-consciousness? No, I knew I've got this dream of making like a very stripped-down piano record. Oh, yeah. Right.

And I was so tempted to do that instead. And that felt like cheating. To 1-80 at that point, I felt self-esteem had always been a trilogy in my head. And I always wanted to make whatever prioritized pleasure had books like upper level. so we had 10 singers on prioritized pleasure. I got like 30 on this. You know, I wanted to make a bigger, bolder, wider screen version of prioritised pleasure, which is what I think I did.

But I knew that that was a challenge. And to 180 would have been easier. And arguably might have gone better, but too late now. But the risk, obviously, other than any kind of critical barbs that might come at you because they'd go, oh, look, this is what she does and she's doing more. the risk for you personally is that you're putting so much of yourself out there and what you were saying before is that you every bit of commentary or criticism

you feel it personally yeah I've always you know my therapist and people around me there's a lot of like self-esteem is this thing and rebecca Lisa Taylor's the other and I'm like it isn't that it's the same and I've never I never understand not completely putting yourself into what you make this is the first time I felt any kind of negativity towards doing that. It's the first time it's like bit me on the arse. And I've been surrounded by people going like, this is going to buy her on the ass eventually.

And I've been like, no, why wouldn't I say how I feel in my music? Why it's boring not to? And now I see the price, actually, and they're like, and the risk. I won't stop doing it because I can't. I've written a book. Have you?

Same as I've started running, but I wouldn't say it's running. Shuffling. And my book is so hardcore that book. Like, I'm going to get so many emails from people being like mad with me. Why? Because you've mentioned

people personally? No, I never mention anyone directly, but like, I just think, like, people have a, people don't like women saying anything and it's quite like exposing and but again, I can't not do it. So, I think my point is yes, I've learnt the price you pay for it, but

can't not do it. And then the people I love, like the artist I look, like Marina Abramovich Madonna, like, they don't give it a second thought. I'm sure they did it at the time, but. But I don't think of Madonna as being someone who put herself, I mean, she did in lots of ways put herself on the line, but lyrically, she wasn't in the same place as you as being like so specific about your neuroses and your, no, but you know what I mean?

Like things that are really pretty deep down in the core of you and what you worry about and what makes you tick and things you don't like about yourself, things that most people try pretty hard to cover up. I feel like it soothes me of it, though. Yeah. It is weird, isn't it? Like, I'm only just thinking about it now. I'm a bit worried, like, one day I'll be like, ooh, can we take all that down?

But, um... I'm not suggesting you should feel bad about it. No, no, it's it. I've thought the same about, you know, I talk about this stuff a lot myself, and I have times when I think I overshare. And I can't not, though. I worry. But, um, I do, I feel the same way as you.

It's like, I do believe there's a value in it. Yeah. And I think, you can go too far with it. But it's an interesting place to be. Teen's, 20s was like desperately trying to clip myself down to conform and assimilate what everyone else was being like. And I don't even think I was that wild, but I was unlucky that I was just in environments of, you know, all the lads in the band had long-term girlfriends and homes. And I lived in and out of flat shares and had 20 million different relationships. And I couldn't be normal, right?

I've not felt bad about not being normal now for years. So all of it is part of healing, how horrible it was to try and conform. I think I'm sort of like, I am singing to me at 22. But also even those people who you think of as having conformed, they probably don't feel like they fit either. Everyone feels that to a degree. I suppose that's why so many people have responded to it, you know, because it is fairly universal.

So I don't know that many people who at core are happy with the way they are. But everyone has certainly made me think they are. Yeah, yeah. I have just, like, self-flagellated. Yeah. Is that the word? Sure. And it creeps back in sometimes.

And then I am cleansed by going, no, I'm just going to tell the truth of what it is. And then, you know, every time someone else goes, thanks for saying that, I feel like that. Yeah. I'm like, I feel less alone. It's quite selfish. I'm not doing it for other people. I'm doing it for me to, like, that teenage fucking girl who went to see bands and, And, you know, every woman I ever met was like rail thin singing the harmonies.

There to add a sort of romance to a thing. And I wished that I couldn't be her. And I desperately wanted to be. So every time I sing about, you know, personal things loudly, I feel like I'm avenging her. Yeah. There's a line on the opener. Which line am I going to say?

I do and I don't care The one about smoking No Not smoking line If I'm so empowered Oh yeah Why am I such a coward The chorus

The chorus Well it's a sort of refrain Repreys Sorry Of course you'd talk about that Yes Priorit's pleasure Did have a sort of empowered

Sense of self That immediately went out of the window As soon as I was like More visible Like I'm not famous right but I became visible and people could have an opinion on me for the first time in my life. Not normal,

like not natural thing to happen to anybody ever. And also in a way, because I wasn't going like stratosphericly, you know, I wasn't like surrounded in, there wasn't like loads of money suddenly. Or like, you know, it was this weird middle ground.

And I started to get scared all the time. Like, and also like 21, 22, everyone wanted to say, well, actually, you know, to everything you say, I think there's like a tiny bit. I mean, it's still rough out there, but the discourse, like, you know,

that, like, rabid need to pull people up seems to not be as hot. In what kind of situations? Just like... Are you talking about online or in... Yeah, just like, nothing really that bad happened, but it was just, I was constantly scared and you're going to put your foot in it.

Right, okay. Or, like, you know, tiny things like, if I'd talk about my period, then I got, you know, people... And I'm obviously, like, very involved in trans rights, but then people would DM me saying that's not trans inclusive. Uh-huh. Things like that where I'm like, fuck. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And it's that sort of liberal lefties picking at each other. And I was quite vocal about things I believed in. And for the first time, there was people hit there to pick holes in it. And you're like, shit, shit, shit, shit. I mean, who is pure in that world or in any sphere of political discourse, right or left? I mean, everyone's just waiting to get one over on everybody else at some point. That's why we're losing. I feel like that, I must say.

Obviously, I get like in silly men telling me I'm fat and ugly right. And that's fine. I'm like, that I just, okay, sure. Like I expect that. But when it was like, you know, people. When it's your own tribe, it hurts. Yeah. I was like, ah, fucking you just start to fring.

So that lyrics about that really. But I actually, I'm not just saying that for a good podcasting. But like the last couple of weeks, there's a turn around in my head and I'm crawling back now. I think it's just all been a shock. And I can see the light a bit again now. Good. You've got a good booze song in your record. Thanks.

Are you never going to booze again? You're never going to booze again. Lovely. I can't quite disqualse. connect from like but it's free um no i i do big chunks of time not doing and then i'm really i'm really proud of that song because i'm like don't think there's many people that sing or anywhere you know you either get sober and that's you now or it's way fuck it here's a weekend like no yeah so what are you saying in your song because i really loved that song i thought that was a bang and very

interesting lyrically as well yeah i hadn't heard that perspective yeah i'm just trying to say like what's the middle ground Because it's so binary. Yeah. And my therapist is always like, it's two and go home. And then you can, you know what I mean? And I'm like, yeah, but it's just not that simple. And no one's ever saying about like how grotty that is and how socially sort of rammed down your neck it is.

So I don't know. It's an ongoing process. Part of the problem with booze is knowing when you do have a problem and knowing when the point comes when you just have to say, actually, this isn't working. And I've just got to stop altogether. Yeah. Do you, so? No. No.

Should we get a bag? I'm drunk now. I'm hammered. I'm Hammond. Well, that's the thing. Like, I really realize there is the drinking that I do to be able to be the type of person that people are expecting. And there's a, like, nice couple here and there with friends that's, like, perfectly reasonable. And, like, God made these things that are nice.

And I want to be able to have them. And the only time it gets. gets problematic for me is when it's to perform and be what everyone else wants. But that's just like social anxiety. Like I am just a nervous wreck at barbecues, but I can sing on stage and that's never made much sense, you know. Why are you a nervous wreck at barbecues? I just can't know what you mean, but how, like, talk me through.

I just can't think what to say. And then if no one says anything, I'll fill it. And somehow I'm finding myself talking about something about myself that's way too in depth. And I'm like, fucking hell. I just panic. I hate it. How do people do it? Some people just do.

Yeah. My wife is good. Is she? I mean, the thing is that when I see her at work with like parents from school and things like that, I just think, well, I could never do that. But it's, I can see that it's hard work. Yeah. She just really makes the effort. Yeah.

That's the thing. My boyfriend like rings people. I'm like, what are you doing? Freak. Do you, if someone calls you and it's an unscheduled call, are you going to take it? I'm like, well, someone's dead. And I wait for it to stop ringing and then a text saying, is someone dead? That's what you'll get.

I'm awful with it. I don't know. Like, I'm not, there's definitely work to do and like, what's wrong with me in that department? Are you in therapy at the moment? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, she must be sick of me.

I'm sure she's not. I'm sure she likes you. Yeah, I'm her favorite, aren't I? Yeah. She looks forward to me, doesn't she? Sure. Definitely. But the other day I was talking to a friend, a woman friend.

And we were talking about therapy and she said, are you going to get any more? And I was like, yeah, maybe. But I quite like CBT. I've never had CBT. And she said, oh, men always want CBT. Same. My boyfriend, CBT, blah, blah, blah. It's because it's like practical, I guess.

Yeah, problem solving. It's not emotional. Yeah. He fucking loves all that. It's mine not in. In my song, it goes, I recommend listening. And he goes, I recommend CBT instead. Does my head in.

Is this the Nazi? Yeah. Yes, it is. It's like you're writing stuff down and then you give yourself a treat if you've, yeah. I smell what you're stepping in with it, but you've got to talk about like, Can you do both? Yeah, I mean, ideally, yeah. But that is funny.

Men do love CB2. That's a lyric on my next record. Thank you to your friend. Because I just want, as I said to my friend, it makes me, you know, I talk about, I do my robot voice. When I talk about my wife. And I do feel robot-y sometimes. But only because, you know, you just, I don't know that it's a peculiarly male urge, though. you just want the world to make sense.

Yeah. You just want some answers. Do you kind of wish the world just not a lot was going off? I think a lot of men just wish things won't happening. Yeah. How do you mean like socially or globally? Just not, don't. Just simple.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't, I don't like flapping. You don't want to cat amongst the pigeons, you know? Well, that's a certain kind of man. I mean, evidently, I don't know if you've read the papers recently, but there's quite a lot of men who aren't like that and are happy to put the cat amongst the pigeons and then go and bomb the cat and the pigeons.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. No, not that. Yeah, sure. I know you're talking more socially. I've just known a lot of men that just are just poodleing about. And it looks lovely. My boyfriend, I call him Auntie, because he's just like folding dusting.

Works out every day, eats the same thing, head hits the pillow good night nothing going on it's amazing meanwhile you've just written a song about your periods

and the voices in your head some men are like that though but you're right it is a different thing I suppose there's all sorts of reasons societal reasons why there's not too many male artists like that like who

Who would be? Who are the sort of male equivalence of you in the music world? Who talk about their feelings and, well, maybe, although I suppose it makes a difference that he's gay, but John Grant. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's, yeah. But what straight men do that kind of thing? There aren't really any.

Not that many. I can't really think. I mean, I think they're starting to, though, because it's fashionable. Sure. And I'm available to write lyrics for men if they need them. Well, my debut album is coming out this September. Is it? Yeah.

It might even be out by the time this appears. And that's a very, very emotional record. Really? No. Oh. Is it? It's silly. Is it?

All right. Okay. It's silly. No, but it's got real feelings in it. Yeah. Yeah. You are very good. But they're buried.

That's the thing is I don't think I would ever be able to do what you do. It would always have to be. be buried quite deep. Buried in what? Like metaphor or? Just sort of, it's a layer in amongst jokes or sort of irony or, you know, shields of of one kind or another. But I don't mean that just because it's an exercise in total cowardice.

It's like because that's what I like to do. I like silly jokes and I like, and I like parodies and I like things like that. So it's valid. Yeah, thank you. All music is valid, apart from some of it. Wait. Continue. Hey, welcome back.

That was self-esteem, Rebecca, Lucy Taylor, and I'm very grateful to her for making the time to come and waffle with me. And I apologize, Rebecca, once again, for making it difficult to put the episode out any earlier. I'm stupid. And I'm learning as I go along as a human, on, but anyway, it was really nice talking to Rebecca, and I've put a few self-esteem-related links

in the description of today's podcast. So how are you, anyway, podcasts? I hope you're well. Feels like the beginning of summer right now in this park in East London, where I'm standing. So I wanted to tell you about a couple of live events that I have coming up, one of which is a conversation with Miranda Sawyer at the Charleston Festival in... East Sussex, and that is happening in May. Oh, that's quite soon, isn't it? I just realized that's like really soon. It's in a couple of weeks. May the 14th. And that takes place at 9pm. God, I'm all over the place at the moment. And yeah, I'm talking to writer and presenter Miranda Sawyer about the 1990s. We're both 90s people. TV, homemade TV, podcast.

broadcasting, that kind of thing. And it's going to be quite similar to an event I did last year with Miranda at the Royal Festival Hall, which featured chat and music and video nuggets from the Adam and Joe Show days, amongst other things. And we had a really good night that night. I thought it was a good show and people seemed to enjoy it. I also love talking to Miranda. So this seemed like a good opportunity when I was invited to the Charleston Festival to give that another outing. I mean, it won't be exactly the same, but just in case you came to the other thing. Don't be surprised if it's similar. Also, it is the 30th anniversary of the Animo Joe show this year, so it seems like another good excuse to do some retro waffling. After this year, I'm never going to do retro waffling ever again. Okay, that's my pledge to you and to myself. A few weeks after that, on the 28th of June this year, 2026,

I will be hosting a screening of the People's Emergency Briefing, an eye-opening film, bringing together nine leading UK scientists and experts presenting the latest evidence on what's happening with the climate and nature, what it means for everyday life in the UK, now and in the future, and what can be done about it. The film is only an hour or so, and it features contributions, not just from the experts, but from a range of UK residents from all walks of life. life, as well as personalities, including Jennifer Saunders and Stuart Lee. I think I'm in there as well.

And they interviewed me. I'm not sure if I made it to the final cut. As just, you know, someone sitting there with Chris Packham, who hosts the film. And we watched the talks, which I actually saw being given live when the initial event happened in Westminster towards the end of last year. It was really a fascinating day. and not totally depressing. A lot of the news is alarming, but, you know, the whole effort is to try and do something constructive

and to try and encourage the government to be more constructive as well. Anyway, after the screening of the film, which is going to take place at the Norwich Arts Centre, did I say that? This is happening at the Norwich Arts Centre on the 28th of June. And after the screening, myself and acclaimed nature writer Patrick Barkham, He also writes for The Guardian, I think. We'll discuss some of the information in the film with each other and also with the audience.

I haven't done anything like this before on stage, but it's a subject I'm interested in and I care about, as I know many of you do. So I hope some of you can make it along. Links in the description to those events. Okay, that's it for this week. I've got to go and get this edited and then head to the station to go to Liverpool, where maybe I will see some of it. of you tonight. I hope so. Thanks to Seamus Murphy Mitchell for his invaluable production support. Thanks also to a couple of new names to the podcast who I think are going to be helping me over the next few months. Claire Broughton and Diggery Wait. Never come across a Diggery before outside of

the Harry Potter universe. Anyway, they are folks that work at Hattrick Productions who are going to be helping me with the podcast, possibly helping me be a little bit more ambitious, maybe doing some more extra bits and pieces, maybe figuring out some ways to be more engaged with the podcasts. Anyway, we'll keep you abreast. But thanks to them for their help with this episode. Thanks to everyone at ACAST, who liaise with my sponsors and keep the show on the road.

Thanks to Helen Green, she does the beautiful artwork for this podcast. But thanks most of all to you guys for coming back, for listening right to the end. I'm not going to shout loud because I'm in a public park and I'm shy but I'm certainly up for a creepy hug if you are. Come over here, just watch out for the bird ship.

Oh, oh yeah, you've got a bit. Got a bit on your chest it. There you go, you got it. Sorry about that. It's organic, cockney bird shit. It's the best kind. And until next time, we share the same sonic space.

Please go carefully. And for what it's worth, I love you. Bye.