THE ADAM BUXTON PODCAST - EP.280 - MEERA SYAL

Episode Date: September 28, 2026

Adam talks with British comedian, writer, playwright, singer, journalist, producer and actor Dame Meera Syal about memoir writing, growing up part of the only brown family in a 1960s Midlands village, what the British Empire's legacy of colonialism meant to Meera's family, and then to her when she was handed some of the Empire's top awards, the problematic Peter Sellers song that gave Goodness Gracious Me its title, what the Simpsons should have done about Apu, and how Meera found herself in a Death Cafe.THIS EPISODE CONTAINS STRONG LANGUAGE (mainly after the interview when Adam sings a song about jaw exercise).Visit the ADAM BUXTON PODCAST PATREON PAGE for previously unheard interviews, Q&A episodes, Rosie pics and videos and other odd and sods.SEND IN PATREON JINGLES AND QUESTIONSSee pics, links, jingles, videos and more on ADAM'S WEBSITESUCCESSPOD - 2026 (listen for free with a trial or subscription on Audible)Conversation recorded face-to-face in London on 26 May, 2026Thanks to Diggory Waite and Claire Broughton at Hattrick and Séamus Murphy Mitchell for production support.Podcast illustration by Helen GreenRELATED LINKSMEERA SYAL 2026 TOUR - September 2026 (Fane)KUMARS AT NUMBER 42 - YouTube PlaylistMEERA SYAL - WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE - 2004 (YouTube)GARETH GATES & THE KUMARS - SPIRIT IN THE SKY - 2003 (YouTube)DEATH CAFE (Death cafe website)PETER SELLERS AND SOPHIA LOREN - GOODNESS GRACIOUS ME - 1960 (YouTube)ROWAN ATKINSON, PIXIE LOTT, NICK MOHAMMED - GOODNESS GRACIOUS ME - 2013 (YouTube)PETER SELLERS AND SOPHIA LOREN - BANGERS AND MASH - 1961 (YouTube) Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I added one more podcast to the giant podcast bin. Now you have plucked that podcast out and started listening. I took my microphone and found some human folk. Then I recorded all the noises while we spoke. My name is Adam Buxton. I'm a man. I want you to enjoy this. That's the plan. How you doing podcast?

It's Adam Buxton here. I'm walking through a Norfolk field on a warm, blustery day in late September, 26. Trotting along beside me is Rosie Buxton, my best dog friend. She's a whip it poodle cross. How are you feeling about this walk, dog legs? I have been more excited. Yeah, you were looking pretty comfortable on the kitchen floor there. But it's nice to get out. Take advantage of the sunshine while we've got it. Before you know it, we're going to be plunged back into wintry darkness, Rosie. You mean extended kitchen sofa time? Oh, that sounds terrible. Yeah, okay. Anyway, how are you doing podcasts? I hope you've been keeping well since the last podcast I put out back in July. Hope Ed Sheeran and the AI apocalypse haven't put too much of a damper on the last

few weeks for you. It feels like I've had quite a busy summer, although recently I've mainly been clearing out and repainting sheds and listening to a lot of audiobooks in the process. Quite nice. Maybe I'll mention a few of them at the end of the podcast, in case you're interested. I have also been recording new conversations for the podcast and adding some golden bonus nuggets to the Adam Buxton podcast Patreon page. Currently, if you visit the Patreon page, you will find an episode with Louis Theroux, talking about his favourite podcasts.

and some recent horror films, before I ran a few ideas for new podcast formats by him, most of which he poo-pooed. There is also a previously unheard conversation with writer Patrick Radden Keefe on the Patreon page talking about the year he spent with Anthony Bourdain, his investigation into Trump's alleged N-word tape, and his big issue with Instagram's algorithm and Mark Wahlberg. And just last week, we added it.

a new conversation with Jamie Demetriu. Well, I say new, strictly speaking. It's another older conversation that had slipped through the cracks. But it's a good one, very enjoyable, funny time capsule of waffle. Recorded in 2017, back before Staff Let's Flats blew up. And Jamie talks about the character that inspired that show, as well as appearing in Flea Bag. And in the Q&A's on the Patreon page,

I have recently answered questions like, what were you doing outside of Waitrose in Ashford in April 2023? I revealed my deepest regret, and I told my Nevermind the Buzzcox P-P story. And myself and Diggery recorded a new episode last week as well. That should be out in just over a week. And you can hear all of that by signing up to the Patreon using the link in the description.

That's where you'll also find the address submit questions, contributions, stories, voice notes, etc. for the Q&A episodes, which I'm really enjoying. I hope you are too, if you have been listening. Okay, right now let me tell you a bit about podcast number 280, which features a rambly conversation with British comedian, writer, playwright, singer, journalist, producer and actor Dame Mirae Sial. Mirafax. Born in Wolverhampton in 1961, Mira grew up in the small English mining village of Essington, northeast of Birmingham, where her Hindu father and Sikh mother had settled in England after leaving New Delhi, India in 1959. At school, Mira was one of only three South Asian pupils,

among 400, and she grew up aware of the atmosphere of racial tension articulated by local Conservative MP, Enoch Powell, in his infamous 1968 Rivers of Blood speech, delivered just a few miles away in Birmingham. After studying English and drama at Manchester University, she graduated with a double first, let me tell you, Mira's performing career moved to the next level after her award-winning 1983 one-woman student show, one of us, which earned her an equity card and led to her professional stage debut at London's Royal Court Theatre. By 1987, Mirror could be seen in the feature film Sammy and Rosie Get Laid, directed by Stephen Frears, and in the BAFTA-winning ITV series, The Little Princess. A TV career continued to flourish in the 1990s, with roles in BBC drama series that

included Kinsey, Holding On, and In Deep, and the comedy series Keeping Mum, as well as being part of the cast of the sketch show The Real McCoy. In addition to acting, Mirror was writing. She co-wrote the screenplay for the film Bargy on the Beach, released in 1993, the feature debut of Bend It Like Beckham director, Gorinda Charder. And in 1996, her debut novel, Anita and Me, was published to great acclaim,

going on to become a recommended set text on the UK school curriculum. Still waiting to hear, that's going to happen with Rumble Book? I think it is. And the following year, 1997, Mira's contributions across literature, drama and comedy were recognized with an MBE in the Queen's A Lara Laura New Year's Honest List of Blinded Data.

But it was in 1998 that Mira broke through to an even wider television audience as co-creator and star of the Seminole BBC Sketch Show Goodness Gracious Me. alongside Colvinda Gear, Nina Wadia, Dave Lamb, and future guest on this podcast and Mira's husband, they married in 2005, Sanjeef Bhaskar. From 2001 to 2006, Mira appeared as unfiltered grandmother Umi Kumar in comedy talk show The Kumars at No. 42. All the while, she'd continued writing. Her novel, Life Isn't All Ha Ha! Ha! He was published in 1999, and in 2002, Mira wrote

the book to the West End musical Bombay Dreams. Novel number three, The House of Hidden Mothers, she's under the stairs, was published in 2015, the same year that Mira was awarded the CBE, Alara. On Monday, the 28th of September, tomorrow as I speak, Mira is on stage in Birmingham for the first night of a speaking tour in support of her new memoir, Vigilante. And on that tour, she's also visiting Nottingham, Newcastle, London, Bristol, Manchester and Edinburgh. You'll find a link for dates and tickets in the show notes of this episode. My conversation with Mira was recorded in London towards the end of May this year, 26,

a couple of days into the first of the five heat waves that we experienced over the next few months. And we talked about the agonising process of memoir writing, what it was like to grow up as part of the only Brown family in a 1960s Midlands village, what the British Empire's legacy of colonialism meant to Mira's family and then to her when she was handed some of the empire's top honours. It was earlier this year, in fact, that Mira was made a Dame commander of the Order of the British Empire.

It's the DBE for services to literature, drama and charity. We also talked about the problematic Peter Sellers' song that gave Goodness Gracious Me its title. What the Simpsons should have done about our book. who and what the death of Mira's mother taught her about mortality. But we began, as I sometimes do, with the recordings, by asking if there was anything that Mira didn't want to talk about, and also testing my mic levels. With the breakfast question, all of which tends to get cut out of most episodes, but this time we left it in because it led to us talking about the episode of the Great British Bakeoff that I

appeared on with Mirror and which was broadcast in early 2025. I'll be back at the end for a bit more waffle, maybe some audio book recommendations. But right now, with Mira Sayal, sorry, Dame Mirr Sayal. Here we go. Is there anything you don't want to talk about? Anything you're sick of talking about? Anything you'd rather just leave? No, I don't think so.

Okay, I mean, you know, as... Exactly. Exactly. As we go along, if there's anything that comes up, just say. I will. Can we not talk about that or whatever you, you know, however you... Or how fucking dare you?

How fucking dare you? Yes, yes. Although that will probably stay in because that's more spicy. I talked to Damon Olburn the other day. Oh, wow. Okay. His partner in crime in gorillas, Jamie Hewlett. Yeah.

the artist and they were, I would say, refreshingly candid. What about each other? Just about everything, like just seemed quite unfiltered compared to the way most people feel they need to be in the modern media sphere. Yes. So it was quite funny. And then didn't ask you to edit any of it? No.

They, I was really surprised, actually. I sort of expected to get an email from the public. publicist saying, you know what, maybe lose the bit about Damon sometimes not wiping his bum, which even at the time he was going, oh, I can't believe I just said that. And then his friend Jamie said, don't worry, they won't put that in. I say, of course I'm going to put it in. Right, let's see. Mary, will you tell me what you had for breakfast this morning, please? I was very healthy, Adam. I had homemade chia banana pudding with blueberries.

Oh, beautiful. I had some blueberries as well. But you did the homemade banana pudding. What does that involve? Oh, honestly, it's so easy. You just mash the bananas in one of those mason jars. Then you add chia seeds and yogurt or your milk of your choice. I put in vanilla essence and a bit of peanut butter.

And you stick it in the fridge and it swells. and goes into a puddingy thing overnight. People put chocolate chips in and all kinds. And then I have that in the morning with loads of fruit and walnuts. Whoa. So good. And it fuels you up because it expands in your stomach. Because I used to eat slough porridge,

but actually I always felt hungry after about an hour and a half of porridge. It's late. I have to feel I have no breakfast. But not with cheersies. They somehow do the trick. Well, obviously I know of your culinary genius. Because I shared a tent with you. You did.

On the Great British Bake Off. Stand Up to Cancer, Celebrity Edition, which we recorded like two years ago. I know. Wasn't it? Was there a heat wave then? Yeah, it was pretty hot. How stressful was that? Really stressful.

Really stressful. Yeah, why was it so stressful? I mean, for me, it's because my friends of all was said, oh, you're a good cook. And, you know, when people say that to you over the years, you begin to believe it. And then you suddenly say, I'm going on this. And every single friend you have is like, right, right. Now we'll see if she's any good. So I felt this immense amount of sort of friend pressure.

Not so much from the judges, but honestly from all those mates who'd, you know, over the years said, oh, I love what, you know, you cook this, you could that, we love that. And I love cooking, I really do. But suddenly, when it's an exam situation, which it did feel like, it becomes a lot less fun, doesn't it? Televised exam. Televised exam. Next to Tommy Tien and self-esteem. Oh, yeah.

And Adam Buxton. Well, I have to say, your age. Alien cake is honestly the highlight of every series for me. Nothing is going to compete with your banana gently drooping in the heat until it laid its little head. It was very sad. Honestly, I literally could have cried. I was like, oh, you're joking,

because I really genuinely thought, like, I'm going to win this because it's such a good idea. It was a brilliant idea, and it looked amazing. I mean, you should have. You should have. You just miscalculated the droop. factor, as many men do. I think I was stitched up.

I think they gave me a banana that was too ripe. There you go. The whole concept relied on an unripe banana. Banana that would stand up stiff in that, I apologize for using the word stiff, but in that pie, in that cherry pie. Damn it. No mind. Every film fan was applauding you. Yeah, thank you.

But one of the compensations was that at the end, they let you have any food that they let you have any food that's been made and they box it up. Yes. And so even some of the disastrous cakes were actually quite tasty. They were. And I got to go home with the food that you made, which was delicious. And that night we had supper when I got back to Norfolk and ate your... Frieda Sago panir pie.

Yeah. Beautiful pie. Explain what was in that. I'm basically made a Sarg panir curry and stuck it in a pie. That's why I did. I didn't even realize there was cheese in it. Yeah. I hate cheese.

Oh, well, it's not quite like, you know, it's a very different kind of cheese, much lighter. It's more like cottage cheese. That doesn't make it better for me, just the word cheese. But you ate it? It makes me sad. I loved it. So maybe I do like cheese. Maybe you do.

Also, though, I had some of the oat crumpets. Did you like them? Yeah. Oh, good. They're amazing. Oh. I just did marmite crumpets, which were way too salty. Oh, but I love marmite.

I mean, it was fine. Paul Hollywood said, not bad, but you've gone nuts with the salt. Oh, no, because I'm not. I had hummus made from edamami beans. Also a very good idea. Yeah, but that was too salty as well. So anyway, what were your ones? They were savoury crumpets

flavoured with curry leaves and lime and I just bought a lot of Indian flavors into whatever I cook because that's what I'm confident with. That's what I grew up cooking. So for me that felt easy. That's the palette that you paint with. Yeah, that's right, it is. In the kitchen.

You know, asked me to do anything fancy in French. I'd nose dive, I'd be awful. Yeah, okay. It was, I'm not joking, so delicious and also beautiful. It was very beautifully presented. Oh, thank you. Were you? You're not an art school girl though, are you?

No. Oh my God, I'm so bad at drawing. It's so bad that once I was asked to do a painting for a charity who was going to auction them. This was some years back, and they donated mine back to me. I said, I don't think anyone's going to want this. I was so embarrassed because I tried to do something. figurative, which just looked. It was meant to be sort of this Indian face with the big bindi and the big eyes,

and I'm trying to do something flashy with it. And honestly, it looked like someone had a stroke. And I should have gone for something, you know, abstract because no one can judge you on that. I should have just done some splodges on a canvas and gone, this is how I feel, and I'm deep in my depression. I don't know why I'm going to question for that. And it probably would have sold, but they literally said, take it back. That is how bad I am, at all.

Okay. Well, you express yourself through cooking. I do. I love feeding people. It's one of the greatest art forms in the world. I think you can tell a lot about someone if they like food and how they eat their food. You know, if you see someone that's licking their lips and chucking the oysters down and opening their figs in a saucy manner, you go, mm-hmm.

Yep. Yes to you. You like life. You're sensual. What about if they are tipping the last shards of some crisps down their neck from a pack of cheese and ice? Do you know, it depends what's available, but that to me shows someone that's getting every last crumb. And you go, you will get every last crumb of life. I like you. All right, good.

Hey, congratulations on writing a memoir. Is that memoir number one? Thank you. Yes. One and only, probably. But oh, my gosh, I'm nervous. Now, you've been through this. Yeah. Twice. It's quite, isn't it a bit? I've written three fiction novels and I of course didn't feel the same about that. But this is like, I'm giving away stuff. I'm putting stuff out there that is out there for. forever and that's a bit scary. Yeah. What was the process? Did you have an editor who worked with you on what to include? Did you have a good sense of what you were comfortable

sharing and what you weren't going to share? Yeah, I did talk through all of that, a great editor. I mean, I knew that I didn't want to write a linear memoir because they can be a little bit predictable. You know, I was born then and then I did this and then that happened and then that happened, which is fine and really perfectly acceptable if you're Barbara Streisand or somebody hugely famous who's had the most extraordinary life. Well, you know, no to both for me. So I think I had to be judicious about how I structured it and what I would include and ask myself, why is this interesting enough to put down? Because most of your life isn't, at least mine. It's called vigilante, pun intended, because the aunties are a sort of running theme all the

way through. I grew up with this big matriarchal group of women and they are your sort of military police. They're your conscience. They're your guides and they're also the people that are hardest on you. And I used to fear them and then I became one and now I understand them. And that to me was the arc of womanhood and coming into who I am. And so I thought, well, if I think about it, some of the things they said in my life really stuck with me, changed the course of my life in some way. And I thought, what if I headline each chapter with a phrase that somebody said to me at a time in my life that completely flipped it was one of those sliding doors moments. So each chapter starts with one of those phrases. So the chapter about my early childhood is called Don't Sit

With Your Legs Apart, which has said to me at regular intervals when I was a little girl because I was such a tomboy. And then the chapter about being a young teenager and going into teenagers was said by an auntie, which is you can only get fat after you're married, which to me told me everything about what was expected of me. And so that's how I've tried to structure it. And on the way, I would run stuff past my editor and go, you know, is this entertaining enough? Is this insightful enough? That bit isn't, no, take it out then.

I want someone to feel at the end of the chapter that they've had a really good chat, a fireside chat from which maybe they've taken something away that's interesting. And did you have any times when you thought, because what happened with me was that I thought, hmm, I've got nothing really, as you said, you know, like no big pivotal moments that everybody's desperate to read about. Yeah. So you're sort of just dredging stuff up that you hope will be relatable by everybody. Exactly.

Yeah, yeah. And I sort of thought, well, people put a premium on all the dark stuff, but I've had quite a nice life. I've been very lucky in all sorts of words. Sorry about that. So, hmm, what terrible things have happened to me? When was the darkest moment in my life? I sort of started thinking, well, what are the relatively dark things about being a father or being a husband or, you know, I could go there. There've definitely been moments when you stare into the abyss and you think like, oh, I'm terrible.

You know, maybe that's worth talking about. But actually, I realized the great thing about an editor. moments was he sort of saved me from myself really right and he said actually no one wants to read that and even if they did that's not that's not the kind of audience you want to attract yes you know what I mean like yeah yeah I don't know about you but they do the thing that I've kind of yearned for throughout my career which is someone to say here's what you do well here's what you're good at right don't bother with all that other stuff you know what I mean that's the dream because most of the time I find myself just going, I don't know what I'm doing. Is this any good?

You know what I mean? And often it's an outsider that can see it better than you. Yeah, yeah. Yes, yeah. Did you get any of that sort of shaping or were you? Yes, I mean, they were keen for it to be funny because I suppose that's what a lot of people assume I am. But that didn't stop me putting in the darker stuff and the more thoughtful stuff and the more confessional stuff. Because I think that's the way that the conversations I have with women go anyway,

that one minute you're screaming with laughter and the next you're revealing something quite painful and then everyone dissects it and then you have another glass of wine and then you're laughing again and I thought well that's kind of how most communication is but I suppose the spine of it was why would someone pick up this book and find it interesting well I guess someone with my background to do what I ended up doing at a time when there was really very few people like me doing it I think is the spine of something interesting. What was it like in those early days being the only one in the room?

What was it like trying to get the stories told that nobody had heard before? What was it like being a chubby little brown girl who wanted to be thin and blonde? You know? All of those things. And then a lot about some of the amazing people I've worked with and what I learnt from them

in the theatre and on screen. And very much about my parents as well, their journey, their sacrifices, and then eventually their end. So I started right to write writing the book after I'd been orphaned and it felt like the right time to see the overview. Because that does make you see an overview, doesn't it? When it's just you?

Yeah, definitely. Your mum died a couple of years ago, 23. That's right. And your dad, when did he go? 2018. Ah, right. Yeah, so it is like my mom died in 2020 and obviously, and that still seems very fresh. Yes.

And my dad was 2015. I can't believe that that's over. 10 years ago. I know. Isn't it weird? Think about him all the time and he's still so alive to me as a figure and in good and bad ways. Yes. But mainly good ways, I think.

But I do, yeah, I really, I think about them a lot. No, I mean, all that stuff obviously is so relatable. And it was really interesting finding out about where you grew up and how you grew up. I just didn't really know any of that stuff. So you were in Essington, West Midlands. Yes, nice. Is that what your accent was like back then? Oh, nice.

Complete black country went, I was. You know, I taught like this when I was little. Yeah. And there's actually a vocabulary of its own. There's literally a black country dialogue, which is kind of probably dead now, but older women in the village spoke it all the time. So if you want to say in black country,

stop crying and hold me hand or I'll hit you. You go, stop blarting, hold me donnie or a lampier. You know, it's got its own vocabulary. And it's, I think it's good. it's chewy and it's bold and I think that was a lot to do with my sass when I was growing up because that's what I was surrounded with. And what made it even more interesting is that I had two completely different accents. So that was me outside the house and inside the house.

It was very much, yes, I've done my homework and I'd like to be a doctor and I'll go, and yes, I'm a good girl. So I had this completely schizophrenic existence that a lot of firstborn kids who's parents have emigrated, that's what you do. You are jugglers. And it's no wonder that a lot of us become creative because we code switch all the time. And that's quite a creative pastime. But presumably you weren't aware of what you were doing

because that's just what you grew up with. Yeah, it's just what I grew up with. The masks came on and off effortlessly. And it's a lonely place and it's also a hugely creative place. And it's good when you realize that the good side of the loneliness and feeling like I don't fit in anywhere

is actually that that means I can fit anywhere. And also, I can all see the bigger picture because I don't quite belong anywhere. Are you still code switching, Mira? All that time. Not with the same ferocity and starkness as the first generation had, of course not. But I hope it gives you a kind of compassion,

actually, for people that don't fit in because I never did. And we find each other. In our profession, we find so many of us. You could be in the same village that your grandparents and great-grandparents, and great-grandparents lived in, but there'll be something odd about you.

You'll be the one that doesn't quite fit the mould. And we find each other in the arts. I think that's where we congregate because we knew there was something different about us, something more we wanted to say, something more that was out there beyond that limited horizon. And that's why you become creative, I think.

So I like being in that tribe. I like being the non-conformers and the non-belongers. That's what makes you create, I think. But you were growing up in the 60s. Yeah. And 70s. Yep.

Up in the West Midlands. Yeah. Only a few miles from where Enok Powell delivered the rivers of blood speech in 68 when you were like six or something. Yeah. What did that feel like? When did you become aware of an atmosphere of burgeoning racial tension? It's really hard to describe. I think you grow up hyper alert, hypervigilant, which is an uncomfortable.

place for a child, you never feel safe. And I do vaguely remember the fallout of Enoch Powell's speech. I was too young to us. I'd watch it on the telly, but I have vivid memories of my mom and dad and all their friends really feverishly discussing what was going on and was this the time they now should go. And I'd glance up to the suitcases that always lived on the top of the wardrobe and think, oh, that's why they're there. We've got to be ready. And that hypervigilance, spite your cortisol all the time. Do you know what I mean? You're just living on that.

And then it becomes reality. So I was lucky the most. I never got physically attacked. Our house was, you know, we had NF painted on our house. Some guy chucked a flick knife at you at one point, though. Oh, yeah. That was in the park when I was little true. I don't know if that's because he was...

That wasn't racially motivated. Who knows? It was quite hard to tell. Right. He was a dick anyway. Yeah. He was just a dicky boy that did stupid things. and yeah, maybe. Who knows? I didn't ask. I was crying.

But the name calling you just got used to. That was just part of it. You learned not to go in these areas. You learned to keep your head down. At least that's what my parents' generation did. Our generation were different. Our generation were the ones that actually had to go out there and deal with it in the school, in the street. And so we grew up a little punchy for survival. So how many people that looked like you were living in Essington around that time? Oh no No we were the only Asians in the village I mean that was A weird mixed blessing On the one hand Those obvious curiosity

Some hostility But that sort of wore off after a while Because in a way we were all at the bottom of this heap together You know what I mean It was very working class It was too up too down outside loo Didn't have a bathroom in the house You saw baths

In front of the fire It's now sounding like a Monty Python sketch I'm sorry. But I didn't feel that at a at a sort of, on the one hand, the hypervigilance, I mean the odd one out and on the other one, feral and free and surrounded by nature

and never policed. And that's where my little rebel heart grew, you know, all that freedom. And our actual neighbours and villagers, once they got to know us, they were lovely. The problems came from people that came from the outside.

The passes by, the kids that used to come and play in the past, or if I missed the bus, the long walk home through the estate, that's when you went, oh, here we go, here we go, fists out. Right, okay. I think you meant to be a bit wayward when you're a kid, aren't you? Yeah, I suppose. That's how you test your boundaries.

I stole five pounds from my mum's purse. When I was 10 to buy a David Cassidy T-shirt, I really, really, really wanted. And I knew she'd never say yes. And that was a lot of money, right? So I think 10 seconds after I took it, she knew, but it was too late, I'd run to the postbox and put the money in the envelope and I'd sent it off. And then my punishment was when it arrived, I had to wear it constantly and it was awful. It was fluorescent pink and it was too tight and David looked like he had mumps.

And it was like a hair shirt. It was the T-shirt of Penitence. That's how she punished me. You wear that until it falls off you. Did you feel bad at the time when you were taking it out of the purse? No, I was absolutely swept up. in my life of crime. You were just...

Driven mad by lust. By David Cassidy. And this was my passport to acceptance. Then I'd be like all the other cool girls. I'd have David Cassidy blazoned across my chest. I think I love you. So what am I so afraid of? I'm afraid that...

Yeah, that's a good song. He had some good tunes, right? Cherish, that was a good tune. Right. How can I be sure? Come on. That's a great tune. How does that one go?

How can I be sure in a world that's constantly changing? How can I? be sure where I stand with you I think I love you that's the only one I know that's the partridge family actually dusty Springfield is on a beautiful version of how can I be sure you might prefer that but Cassidy was in the partridge family though right yes oh my gosh she's to run home to see that yes but anyway yeah so anyway that was it for crime and crime mirror I did the time did the crime and I did the time but now you are a dame of the British Empire well how ironic And also a commander of the British Shempa.

You are, I think, the most decorated guest I have ever had on this podcast. And that beats also Sir Paul McCartney. Oh, my God. Well, that's just wrong. That's just wrong. He got his MBE in 1965. He held on to his. John Lennon gave his back.

Right. I remember that. Yes. Paul was knighted in 1997. And he's got the CH. Do you know that one? I don't. Go on.

That's the companion's honour. Oh. Order of the Companions Honor There's only 65 at any one time In the whole Commonwealth He totally deserves it Sure, I'm not saying that He doesn't

I'm just saying he's got that J.K. Rowling's got one David Attenborough's got one David Hockmey's got one Kazuaiwishiguru's got one George Osborne's got one How did he get one? I'm not sure about that

Anyway, Jane Maggie Smith had one When she died It was split between Anton Deck And then it goes to rubbish Rangin open But do you get, like, was there, I watched your episode of Who Do You Think You Are? Oh, yes. Which is really great.

Oh, my God. What a great program that is. I was in the very first series, so it was a bit of an experiment. But my goodness, their team, their research team, is something else. When was that that you did? That was it 2004? Yes. And they found out loads about my family, even I didn't know.

But that just, that whole idea of legacy, I think is so important. know, if we actually looked back at what our journeys are and what brought us here, we might be a little more forgiving of people whose journeys are just starting, you know, in a new country. We might just be a little more understanding if we dug further back. I mean, when I learned history in school, I had no idea when we were talking about the Industrial Revolution and how Britain was just, you know, led the world. I had no idea all of that wealth came from colonised nations. I just didn't know.

I didn't know that that process is what caused my parents. to emigrate because in 1947 when independence came the country was stripped it's been asset stripped and so you go oh that's why when people used to say

why don't you go back to where you come from you go now let me tell you let me just give you a little potty oh no you're going to hit me okay fine you can save that but I mean those basic facts like that just might make us see things a little bit differently but did you when you were garlanded with the wards from the empire was there a conversation that you had with your friends and your family about it?

Oh my God, yes. How did that go? Huge. Yeah, well, ironically, the year 97 that I got off as an MBA was the same year that I'd taken my father back to the house he fled in 1947 for partition for a Radio 4 program. And the partition of India happened in 47 with independence. So independence is always twinned with this also tragic event, which is, biggest mass displacement of people still in the 20th century, six, seven million, a million dead, that's just official.

Huge, it was catastrophic and huge and hastily done. And my father ended up on the wrong side of the border because they were Hindus in a now designated Muslim homeland. And I'd taken him back to the place he fled. I heard him tell these awful stories about what he saw as a 13-year-old boy, which really marked the end of his childhood and the beginning of lifelong, unresolved trauma, as it did for many people. And then that same year, you go, do you want to be a member of the British Empire?

He's like, do you know what the empire did? So yes, it was a conflicted position. But the thing that changed my view of it was actually my parents' reactions to it. And for them, and not everyone will understand or agree with this, it was some kind of validation of the suffering they'd gone through. and the journey they'd taken and a sort of marker that history doesn't have to repeat itself

that it can be rewritten was how they thought about it. And they said one day there will be an Indian prime minister for a very short period of time. Do you know what, Howard? They have known that, but yes, that's another marker too, whatever your politics.

Yeah, well, of course. I mean, it's a big deal. You write really nicely about it. In the end, my parents decided for me, Papa repeated the story of being a little boy with his face pressed up against the railings, watching the British officers waltz with their wives. One generation on the fences are gone,

and we dance on the same ground to our own tune. Yep, that was about the size of it. So yeah, interesting decision, but one that made them very, very, very happy. Did you go to dinner parties where you had drunken discussions about it and people gave you a hard time? Oh yeah, there was a whole range, a whole range of opinions about it.

And I totally respect the people that don't want empire on their medal and maybe we should look at renaming it. You make the point that it has negative Star Wars connotations as well, which they should consider. The Empire Strikes Back Medal is definitely got a ring to it. But yeah, but it's such a personal decision and I wouldn't dream of lecturing anyone else about it. I think you should respect whatever decision that takes you to. I took a trip down the river of time. I took a trip, took a trip down the river. I packed some things for my trip down the river of time.

I didn't realize that the title of Goodness Gracious Me, the sketch show. Yes. Came from the Peter Sellers song with Sophia Loren. It absolutely did. Because that was what came. came into a lot of people's heads when you thought about an Asian comedy character. It was Peter Sellers playing the Indian Doctor in the Millionaireers. It goes boom, boody boom, boody boom, booty boom, booty boom, boody boom, booby boom, booby boom.

And you can't help but then sing. Well, goodness gracious me. That was 1960. Yep. That was a big hit. It was a huge hit. Of course. And, you know, Sellers is a very fine actor.

We kind of all loved him and loved his work. So it was very conflicting. It was really to sort of do the reclaiming bit like, all right, you thought we were like this, but actually we were a bit more like this. You know, George Martin produced Goodness Gracious Me. Did he? Yeah, George Martin, before he was working with the Beatles, George Martin was working with Peter Sellers and did comedy records. Right. And one of them was Goodness Gracious Me.

Right. And then the follow-up, which was bangers and mash. Who sang that? Well, that was, again, Peter Sellers and Sophia Lorenne who did a whole album. Of comedy songs? Of comedy songs. Why has no one to do that? told me this. Off the back of the success of goodness gracious me. And one of them was bangers and

mash where he's more accents. This time it's cockney, but he also does Italian. And the premise of the song is that he's a guy who met an Italian woman during the war. Right. And now they're married and living back in the UK. And she makes him pasta and, you know, vermicelli and minestrone and he wants bangs and mash. Oh, cultural class right there. You see? That's what's going on. Yeah. It's a song about racial harmony. Yeah. Oh, that sounds brilliant. And of course, Sellis could do every accent going, couldn't they? So I'm... Yes. And that was, you know, I was going to say, that's when no one particularly thought that it was a bad thing to do an accent like that. But of course, that was still the case a long time after that. You know, I'm thinking about the Simpsons.

Oh, an Apu. The whole Apu. So the Simpsons is like mid-90s, early 90s even? Yeah, yeah. Do I remember it rightly that it felt a bit edgy that there was this character, Apu, in there, and he had the accent, and it felt like, oh, I didn't think you were supposed to do that accent anymore. Was that, am I misremembering that? No, there was certainly that.

I think you probably didn't pick it up early on, but, you know, as times changed and people became more aware, it became to feel more and more anachronistic, I guess. I think the really sad thing is, though, that they just cancel the character. Right. Why didn't they just have a South Asian actor voice him and keep what was a really funny character in? Yeah, yeah. I think that was like, you know.

Did you ever watch that documentary, the problem with Apu? Do you know what? I haven't, and I should. A guy called Harry Condobolu. Yes. 2017. So it was around the time that a lot of these conversations were really picking up momentum. Yeah, yeah.

And I read an interview with him a year or so after the documentary had come out, and he had just had a terrible year with everyone coming at him so angrily, most of whom hadn't seen the doc. Okay, saying, why did you get Apu cancer? Yeah, you killed Apu, and you've got no sense of humor, and it's PC gone mad. Yes. And the whole, you know, the thrust of the dock was that Apu was sort of legitimizing a lot of microaggressions, and not so microaggressions towards South Asian people.

And then I read this thing with Hank Azaria, who was the white actor who did the voice. And yeah, after the furor around the dock, they sort of phased up who out. He's still part of the Springfield universe, but he just doesn't speak. He doesn't have speaking lines. Yeah.

So I guess maybe because they thought, oh, well, because Hank Azaria's voice was so good and we can't just get another actor in to do it, it would be too. Or maybe they thought it was pandering to a set of stereotypes. I don't know, but that's the problems with, you know, if it's satire, then everyone's going to get taken the piss out of, aren't they? Yeah.

If everyone is the same in the same universe, I don't have a problem with that. But then give that great job to a really talented actor that can do it and keep the fun going, you know. That's the point of satire. In goodness gracious me, we satirized ourselves as much as we satirize the English, in fact, probably more. But I think that's the great sign of self-confidence of a community when you can laugh at yourselves. That's actually healthy.

But it's just important that you have the opportunity to hold the power of that punchline yourself. That's the thing. Hank Azaria said quite recently, actually, on a podcast in 2025, the Pablo Torres finds out podcast. he said that what changed his mind back then in 2018 when they were talking about what to do with Apu he said when hate crimes were perpetrated against South Asian people a lot of times they were just called Apu it became a slur

Oh gosh I didn't know that When convenience store guys were stabbed or shot or robbed you know And that means it got away from us something got away Of course we didn't mean it that way and we were not to blame for people turning it into that kind of hate, but we did tee it up. Do you know, that reminds me of the argument about till death is due part all those years ago. Right, okay.

Do you remember the Alph Garnet, Warren Mitchell played Alv Garnet, this sort of, you know, rabid, right-wing, middle-aged white guy with his long-suffering wife and his daughter and socialist sonny law? And when he was written, the writer, Johnny Spate, said, Alph Garnett was written as a figure of fun. He was based on my dad. You know, he was a bit racist. He did hate socialists. He did go on rants. We found him really funny. And he was funny. The problem was, he was written as a figure of satire and for someone to make fun of. But if you give the devil the best lines, those are the ones people remember. So Alph's long monologues about

get all the darkies out were what we have to put up within the playground the next day. Nobody was actually repeating the brilliantly witty responses from his socialist sonny law, because Alf was the best character. And so you're treading that really fine line about, I wrote this as a satire, and somehow he's become a hero. And if there's a million other programmes on that are giving you shades of that discussion, that's fine as well. Alf can exist in that universe because you've got that program and that program and that

program. But when it's the only one, then it becomes an issue, because then it becomes representative, I suppose. Anyone that writes and anyone particularly that does comedy always struggles with, you know, what are you allowed to laugh at? It's all about context. And often when we have these arguments, we don't have the context along with it. I'm not for censorship. I am passionately for free speech, but I'm also for contextualising where that jokes is. And it being part of the job of coming up with a character like that to consider how it's going to land and what people people will make of it. Like that's not to say that because obviously you want to be free from

too much anxiety about how the audience is going to take it in some ways, but then in other ways, if the stakes are high, then you kind of do have to think about that, don't you? Yeah, you do. And I think that's the benefit of when you've got a writer that's writing from felt experience and truth rather than assumed observation. I think that makes a world of difference. That's why goodness gracious me landed. I mean, we royally took the piss out of all kinds of aspects of our culture, but it came from a good place. It came from a lived experience and wanting to share that experience and reaching out to people and going, we have a sense of humor too. And there is stuff that we all find funny. And if you don't get the Punjabi bits, go and ask one

of your friends. It might even make you find a Punjabi friend. Go ask them. But that spirit of inviting in and going, come and laugh, not at us, but with us. us is healthy, I think. And that's why I think the show worked. All of that stuff came from our truth, you know. We weren't trying to teach white people about brown people. We wanted it to be funny. But we also said, this is the authenticity of our experience. Come and have a laugh with us. And that's 1998, first series of goodness gracious me. Yeah, something like that. At a time when a lot of British comedy was quite self-consciously being edgy and laddie. and how did that time feel for you? Do you remember?

Well, it seemed to fit in pretty well because it was also the explosion of sketch comedy and broken comedies it's called now, of course. So we were one of many, many sketch shows. I just think it was the vibe that people wanted. Ironically, nobody wants a sketch show right now. It seems to have fallen right out of fashion. But then it was, and I think it fitted that kind of mad, chaotic,

creative time at the late 90s when it was called Britannia and where we were bursting with new stuff and pushing boundaries. And ladism was one of those things. And I hated it, as a lot of people did. But it felt like that was just part of, let's just throw it at the canvas and see if it sticks. So we were part of that wave of experimentation, which is pretty exciting to be in that mix.

Did you feel like we're in the right place at the right time here? Totally. Yeah. It's so much about timing there, don't you think, like everything in life, but your career particularly so much. We were part of this wave of experimentation. We just hit it at the right time.

It's not like there weren't other people doing comedy like us. Tom Allen Center, Stratford East, Waterman Center. We're all hosting, you know, very successful South Asian comedy nights. But very much it was like our subculture, our hidden culture. Nobody discovered it other than us yet. So we just hit that at the right time. So did the BBC get it? Did they, or was it a lot of back and forth with them about how it was going to work?

Oh, man. It took ages to get on. Right. ages, ages right from a hastily thrown together show at the Riverside Studios, literally put together in a week with whatever existing material we had to show to John Ploughman to, because he, you know, quite rightly went, well, I don't know what you mean, what is that? So I'm not sure. Why don't you just come along and see what we're doing? And to his credit, even though it probably didn't get it, he could see that other people did and there was something. But from that first Riverside

mad show to us actually getting on telly. It was a good two, three years. Okay. Of one pilot after another, first a radio pilot and then a radio series and then a TV pilot and then finally the series. There was a lot of hoops. Right. And was that a frustrating process or did you just think, okay, well, we're getting there? It was, but it was also, well, we're trying to sell something a bit new here, a bit unheard of. The point at which the BBC began to take it seriously, I think, is when we took over from Weekending. They took over

the weekending slot for the summer which was the graveyard slot. That's why weekending had the summer off. And suddenly

our little four episodes we did became this kind of sleeper hit. Weekending was the radio satire show. Yeah, on a

Friday night. Yeah. And that's when I think people went, hang on a minute, no Asians are listening to Radio 4 and

Friday night. This means Middle England got it. And if Middle England got it then it's got legs.

Mm-hmm. But yes, a long process. But then suddenly it stopped. Did it stop at the right time? You only did, how many series of goodness gracious me? Three? Yeah. It felt a bit premature. I can't lie to you. It really came out of the blue. I think our producer went in to see the commissioner thinking, well, we'll talk about the next series because it had been such a huge success and we'd won awards and we've done a tour and it was just, you know, we were cooking. And for some reason they just went, no, I think we've done that, which was, who knows, why these decisions are made.

The ironic thing is, we have now done more comeback specials than we actually did series. So I think they might have realised they made a mistake. But then you move quite quickly to the Kumars. Yeah. Well, people think quickly. I mean, it was Sanjeev's idea, and he was pitching it while goodness gracious me was on. But you would think with the visibility that gave us, he'd, he'd, find it easy but that took a few years too that was a good high concept show oh brilliant quite a mad idea had

anyone else done that sort of thing with like a no i suppose we'd have the sort of we had the gary chandling's and the mrs merton and i guess mrs murton i suppose is similar yes but um to a certain extent but certainly never a Punjabi family no that was definitely at first and partridge of course yes you're right yeah yeah no that's right with the yeah because that's a big ask for the guests as well isn't like knowing how to play it? Well, that was the joy of it. They didn't. I mean, that was the whole point.

I don't know if Sanjeev said this when he was on your show, but it was totally from him taking a girlfriend home and his father asking really inappropriate questions. Like, how much does your father earn and his mother saying, be gentle with him. He doesn't take rejection well. And Sanchez thought, I wonder if I bought a famous friend home, how my parents would be.

Oh, they'd be exactly the same. And that's where the collision, this beautiful collision came. because, you know, Punjabi families are notoriously hospitable. They'll kill you with love and kindness and feeding. And why wouldn't they be thrilled to have Hugh Jackman or Patrick Stewart or Tom Jones in their living room? But they would still ask them to unblock the guest loo if it arose, which it did. And I think that's why guests really used to love coming on, because they couldn't do their pre-rehearsed puff chat for whatever project they were doing next.

they had to be completely open to the silliness and the spontaneity of it. And I think that's why a lot of actors really enjoyed coming on. And grandma sitting with her legs open. Well, there you go. That's how I got my revenge after being told all my childhood to shut your legs. No, no, she's an old woman. She's going to know what she wants. Do you remember anyone coming on and struggling a bit to find how to play it?

Yes. There certainly were people that got a bit overwhelmed and just went very quiet. or got drunk. I can't tell you that was. A couple. But if we saw that happening, we'd pull out all the stops

to be as sweet and as kind and as loving and it's encouraging because we just wanted people to just have a nice time. So we would then revert to the ego massage questions and things that will be easy to talk about, get them onto gardening

because you know you love that, get them onto that. Anything to make them feel comfortable. How was Chevy Chase? Do you know he was a delight? But we had been, we'd have the heads up, it could be difficult. Yeah.

But, you know, professional and, of course, thrives in that SNL kind of chaos. So he came up with the goods. Okay. I don't think he finds that kind of thing difficult. He's another one with a good documentary. Yes. That's worth seeing. Yes.

He's a more complicated character. But also, it seems kind of a little bit misunderstood, not to say that he hasn't done some fairly weird things over the years and behaved in quite a mad way. Occasionally. People are complicated. They are. I think especially in showbiz because it's such a mad thing really that you're doing.

Yeah. Pretending to be someone else. Pretending to be someone else, kind of managing how you come across in some ways and then stumbling across a version of yourself that suddenly everyone responds to and you think, oh, that isn't actually me, but now I'm kind of invested in it being me and. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, pile that in with social media and that's a.

A bit of a pressure cooker, isn't it? Don't get me started. Well, or if you do want to get me started, are you on social media? I'm on one thing, Instagram. I wasn't on any, not even Facebook. And then when my last book came out, my publishers almost fainted when I said I'm not on anywhere. And they said, you've got to be on one, just be on one. Yeah, they don't like it.

I was on Twitter a long time ago, but like everybody else, you know, left. So I'm on that. Well, they always used to say, oh, do Instagram. It's so nice. Everyone's nice there. is it still like that? It feels like there's quite a lot of spicy back and forth in the comments after you post a picture. Yes, I think there are some spicy.

I spotted one today completely randomly with somebody who I've never heard of. I was 50 Follah's going, she's horrible in real life. About you? Yeah. Oh, what did I do to upset that? That was my first thought, oh, was it someone I bumped into in the shops or it was a paparazzi person, but nobody had heard of. did I say no to a picture when they read? Anyway, you scroll through and then you go, do you know what?

Have a nice day and I'm sorry. Yeah. You caught me on a bad day. So there's no part of you that considers getting in touch with them, engaging. No, that's just nuts, isn't it? No. You don't do that. You don't know what kind of worms you're opening.

You don't know what kind of day they're having or why they, no. The thing is, a fact of life is, especially if you're a bit known, you walk into any space and a third of the people are not going to like you for no reason whatsoever other than I don't like her face or I don't like that way she comes across or look at that stupid nose of hers or whatever it is do you know what I mean they're just not going to like you and they don't know you and that's that and then there's going to be a third that go I love her I love what she does you know he's lovely and they don't know you either and then there might be a few people that will just go well I don't know you but I might get to know you and then I'll make a judgment.

You can't control any of that, any of it. So all I try and give out is the old hippie thing like, I'm going to see the good in people and think people are good until they prove otherwise. I motor on in that deluded world of mine. And that's all right. I'm just going to use the loo and grab some water. Are you okay? I'm good. All right. Thank you, darling.

Feel free to Phil, sing, tell indiscreet notes. What? Is it still on? It's still rowing. Oh my God. Adams left the room and a tar that's on the sofa. I can peek at his notes. I can actually raid his fridge. I could put a fake poo on his chair.

So he might think he's shot himself without knowing. Write in and tell me which one. Maybe I should steal five pounds out of his wallet. One that fits a long number one. It is hot. He's probably been drinking a lot. It's important to say hydrated folks and sunscreen, two things in the heat wave. Very important.

Are you hydrated? Yes, thank you. Yes, me too. I'm having a bit more. You're looking very youthful, if I may say. Well, that'll be the plastic surgery. Have you ever had me? No, I haven't.

But I'm just, you know, slathering on the moisture. cream and doing yoga face exercise or something like that. Okay. Can you see the face I'm making? Yeah, like a Ropter, Velociraptor. Does that work? Oh well, I'm hoping. Look, I can give you this gift that I've been saving

for exactly this moment, although I didn't buy it necessarily for any specific person. I bought it a few years ago when my face was beginning to sag in the way that it was distressing. Yes. And I found it online. And I saw an ad for it. for it pop up online.

What is it? I'm intrigued. I'm going to advertise it right now. The jaw... It's called the jaws asizer. Oh, I love it already. Tone, tighten, strengthen your face and neck. And it's basically a block of rubber.

Right. Yeah, thank you very much. On a lanyard so that you can just carry it around with you any time. And the first time you use it, you can bite into these gum bits that will mold onto the specific shape of your teeth. Right. So that you will be able to bite into the rubber with extra efficiency. So what do you do?

Do you bite it? Yeah. You're chewing on it and it's a load of resistance. Anyway, I tried it and it was way too much work. Thank you. That's the nicest thing anyone's ever given me. Well, you're welcome. I'm so glad it's found a home.

Yes. And I will tell you, because I thought this is going to change my life. This is going to be my main thing. It didn't change my life. but I was so certain that it would that I bought two at the same time. I do that. They were really expensive. Oh,

are you sure you don't want to give this? It's the least I can do. I was thinking I wish I could think of a good present for Mira. Oh, besides. I'm very excited. It's sort of like a therapeutic dummy. Let me just check that it hasn't turned out to be incredibly harmful. I don't think it's killed anyone.

Listen, I'll try it. Anyway, there you go. Yeah, thank you. I'll report back on this one. Not that you need it, by the way. Everyone needs a little bit of help. Did your aunties pass on Nuggets of Wisdom about the aging process? Oh, yes.

There's so many homemade remedies that actually work. Because, you know, if you grow up in a sort of rural culture, village culture, you haven't got access to pharmacies and things like that. So you just might do with, you know, kitchen pantry things often. So, you know, you can make a really good face mask with turmeric and gram flour and a bit of oil and that can naturally exfoliate and lighten your skin. There's loads of things like that you can do. How about philosophically your temperament as far as aging and mortality goes? Do you feel

like you are armed with some good wisdom in that department? Yes, I think I am finally. I think when you've gone through the death of parents, then I think that does reframe. so many things about mortality. I suppose it helped that I've, you know, come from a background where people are a lot more open about talking about death, actually. If you're a Hindu, you believe it's just part of a karmic recycle anyway and that this isn't the end.

Some people absolutely think it is. We have many friends that are atheists and are very happy with, you know, no, you're dead, you're dead and that's that. Are you more in the Hindu department? I do believe we return to something. Yeah. We're all made of energy. And that energy can't be destroyed so it goes somewhere.

I do believe that. Where it goes, I don't know, there's so many different paths. Dermato Leary. That's where it goes. It all goes back to Dermotelieri. He's hogging all the calms it all up. My God, that's why he's so fucking cheerful all the time. I actually went to a death cafe.

Have you heard of them? No. They're actually quite fascinating places. Sounds bad. No, it's good. And I'll tell you why. They are held quite regularly all. over the country and all people do is you go in and you talk about any aspect of death you want. And when I went, I was on a table with a mixture of people that were dying, that had lost

someone recently and some people who were nowhere near death but just thought it was time. We talked about it and it demystifies the process and you get given an egg timer and every person on the table is allowed to talk five minutes with no interruption about anything they want to do with death. and then you meet up in the circle after and you just say what you got out of it. It's very cleansing because I think the problem is that we all live as if we're never going to die. And it's the one thing that is going to happen to all of us. And the denial and the fear that that engenders is what stops you living your life the way you should live it.

And you realise that when you talk to someone who knows they're dying, who then sees all the beauty in the world because they know it's finite. And the trick is, why don't we all live like that all the time? What made you go in the first place? My grief. My grief about my mum, particularly, because of the way she died and how sad it was and difficult. I was with both my parents when they died,

but mum's death was particularly difficult because it was drawn out. So I was carrying around a lot, and it was really helpful. And then I got into a lot more reading. I mean, Elizabeth Kubler-Ross, obviously, has done one of the sort of great books. one of the classic books about that process. Five stages of grief. Exactly.

Anger, denial. Yeah. What were the other ones? Booking holiday to Abitha. Yeah, memoir. That's the last one. Yeah, memoir. Yeah.

But in the course of also having two-aged parents, one of whom had a debilitating disease, you meet a lot of carers and you meet a lot of end-of-life carers. And actually, they all have the same story that's, you know, the privilege of seeing someone out. but also the blindness that we all have in our everyday lives that why do we only appreciate what we have when we know it's about to go all those bucketless wishes all those things you wish you'd said

so I think actually being accepting of your own mortality and knowing we're all fine it makes you live your life better as a result if you can get over that fear so I hope I have a good death whenever it may be I hope that I am accepting and I hope that I've made the most of the time I have left. Who recommended the calf? How did you find out about the death cafe? A friend of mine that had gone before and knew it was the kind of thing that might be

useful. And I met someone there and I thought, why are you doing here? Someone I used to play netball with in East London. And it turns out she'd lost a daughter at 18. And she was now a death cafe volunteer. And that's how it was helping her get through. And that's the thing, you know, you meet someone like that. What do you get the moment you meet someone who's been through that?

You get perspective. You go, what are all of the things I worry about in my life compared to this, the worst thing that can happen to anyone, I think. So those kind of things just are anchors to remind you of what you do have. And that for whatever time we do have, don't waste it. Spread kindness. Be grateful. enjoyed the simple things like the sun on that beautiful tree over there.

I mean, I do sound like a viking old hippie, but actually that's who I am. That's what I was brought up with. And I denied all of that for a long time, and it made me miserable. And now I find that the way forward for this next stage of life is absolutely what I want to take with me in my work, in my life, in the relationships I have. Plus a jaw to sizeer.

Plus the jaw to size. Can you please do a song about it? I want a ditty at the end of this podcast about the jaws of size. Well, only if they pay me. I mean, I can't just do a free advert for jaws a size. What if it turns out that they like funded Trump's campaign or something? Could you just do a little song about? Sure, I'll try.

About strengthening your jaw. Strengthening your jaw. It will make me so happy. I'll do a jorze. Jor's a jingle. I'll try. Speaking of music, though. Yes.

You're a good singer. Oh, thanks, Mice. I love singing. Yeah, you've had a number one. I mean, you've been technically in a number one. I think that's a better description. Thank you. With Gareth Gates.

With Gareth, Gail-Ga. Comic Relief single in which I cartwield as an old lady. It was a moment. Yeah. It was a moment. But my God, would I love to have a proper number one? They don't do that anymore, though, was it it? Most downloaded, a streamed song, isn't that?

Yeah. Do you write music? No. I wrote a lot of the songs for goodness gracious. me. I really enjoyed that. But I don't read music. So thank God we have software now so anyone can compose whatever they want. But in LEM days, I'd have to sing the tune to Knitin Sorney. It was, you know, that's right. I met Nittin Sorney the other day. And I had totally forgotten that he was a sort of, well, it was him and Sanchief would do comedy stuff together. Yeah, yeah. So Nitting was

part of our original, Goodness Gracious Me, Me, crew. But then he went off and did music. I mean, I hope he survived. I hope he's doing all right. Mercury Prize winning Yeah, right. He's a superstar and a beautiful human. But I would have to sing the tune. I can play guitar weirdly, but I can do chord-based, but I can't read music

and I don't know how to write a stave or whatever. So my love of music is purely instinctual and loving singing. What's your go-to karaoke? Oh, that's really hard. See, I love Joni. I love Joni Mitchell. I'm an absolute Johnny Mitchell freak. But the problem with Joni is that you end up trying to sing like Joni

because she's so distinctive. And unless you got that four-optive range, then, you know, it's going to sound shit, isn't it? Oh, I go for something like the first cut is the deepest, but there's solely version, not the Rodster version. Love a bit of karaoke. Singing's so joyful. There's no filter. It's your soul, right? Have you ever been part of a choir?

Yes, I grew up singing in the church choir in the village. That's where my love of singing started. I probably know more hymns than you, mate. Oh, really? And the discounts. Okay. Test me now. Test me on a carol and I will know the desk camp.

What about good King Wenceslas? Oh, that's a hard one. Immediately busted. Why don't you say silent night? Say silent night. How about silent night? Yes, I know the desk camp for that. I know.

Silent night. Holy night. All is God. All is bright Round your virgin mother and child Holy infant so tender and mild Sleep in heavenly peace Sleep in heaven

Well at least one of us could say Yes I love a choir Singing's so good for you I'm going to get the auto tune out And fix that Wait Continue Your jaw is moving to the floor

Your skin's not elastic anymore Come on You know there's no excuse ignoring saggy jaw skin is masseter abuse You got up Jaws a size Jaws a size Jaws are fucking size

Jaws a size fucking jaws are size I can see your saggy jaw It hurts my fucking eyes Don't put up with that shit no more It's time to Jaws a size Hey welcome back Podcats I will let you know

if the folks at Jaws a size get in touch to offer me a large sum of money To use that jingle I don't know if it it was deliberate or whether she just forgot, but Mira left the jaws of size behind after our recording. So I don't know, maybe I'll re-gift. Anyway, thanks so much to Mira for coming along and making the time to sit and waffle with me. It was lovely to see her. Don't forget

to check out the dates for her speaking tour where she will be telling stories featured in her new memoir, Vigilante. The link is in the description. So how have you been? podcats. Not too bad, I hope. Yeah, I've just been clearing out a lot of sheds. I've got a lot to do. I'm prepping for the Adam and Joe 30th anniversary live specials in November. But I also made the mistake of going into one of the sheds one day and starting to tidy up a little bit. Well, it's like the bit in aliens where Sigourney Weaver is cleaning new. face and she says, oh dear, look, we've made a clean spot. Now we're going to have to do the whole lot. Well, it's a little bit like that. Anyway, it's been a very long overdue process of going

through boxes like the last of my parents' boxes of belongings, plus getting rid of and recycling, lots of old junk that's been lying around for years. feeling like maybe I'm entering a new phase, a great fun new phase, not the final phase, it's the fun all phase. As my children are growing up and gradually sort of leaving home, I don't know, it feels like a bit of a sort of stop-taking phase. Actually, speaking of saggy jaw skin, last night I was watching Sharon Hogan's new show, youth. Really enjoyed it. Watch the first couple of episodes with My Wife.

Very funny. And I was also curious to see who they had cast in a role that I auditioned for. It was the part of a character called Malcolm Hammond, a aging, out of shape, obnoxious, smug, mediocre writer. I don't know why I was asked to audition for that. In the end, the part went to Douglas Hodge, who's good. I mean, he's done more acting than A. Buckles. But I was expecting a callback on that one. Anyway, it's a good show,

but there's a motif in the first episode about Sharon's character, who is in her early 50s and divorced, and her son is going to college, and now she's trying to sort of reconnect. with the dating world, and is worrying about aging, and she sometimes pats the underside of her jaw. She's worried she's getting a bit saggy there. Chores a size. It's a good show. I recommend it.

It's on HBO Plus, even though I just think it would have been a bit better with Adam Buxton in it. Series 2, maybe. Speaking of acting, thank you very much indeed to everyone. everyone who came out to the Duchess Theatre. A few weeks back for White Rabbit, Red Rabbit. You may have heard me talking about that and encouraging you to come along. I sent out a newsletter about that, in fact, when ticket sales were looking a bit sluggish over the summer.

But in the end, it was full, and the audience were great. I talk a bit more about that on the next Patreon Q. If you're interested. Once again, don't forget to explore the Patreon Q&A and sign up for regular bonus content dropping every couple of weeks, plus other bits and pieces on there which sort of plop out as and when. Video of Rosie, pictures of Rosie, a lot of Rosie content. In addition to those previously unheard interviews and the Q&As, in which I often include bits of audio stuff from the archives, deconstruct a few jiggles, that kind of thing. It's great and unmissable, I would say. Link to the Patriot page is in the description.

But, as I said in the intro, I think, all this shed clearing has given me the opportunity to listen to a lot of audiobooks. Let's see if I can give you a couple of recommendations. Well, I listened to David Sederis's new book. the land and its people. That was good. I really enjoyed that. One of his best in recent years, I thought. And I also listened to John Ronson's new book, The Castle, which contains stories about men in crisis in the culture, in modern times. In some ways, it feels like a sequel to So You've Been publicly shamed.

John's brilliant book that came out just as a lot of the culture wars and the culture of so-called cancellation was getting into full swing over a decade ago now, I suppose, which seemed in retrospect to have pointed the way to a lot of what has happened over the last few years. And the castle contains stories about... Men caught up in some of those culture wars, as well as some nice introspective stuff from John about getting older and life work balance, I suppose, and being a dad. It's really good.

I recommend that. What else? Adam Buxton Success Pod, listen to that. That was amazing. Very funny. Have you heard that? It's on Audible. Six parts, Adam Buxton, gazing at his navel and thinking about whether he still fits into the modern audio media sphere, talking to former podcast guests, Louis Theroux, Ramesh Ranganaathan, Sam Campbell, Jessica Knappett, Kathy Burke, Gus Khan.

There's a lot of laughs, great new songs. I mean, I would say what's not to like? Link in the description. and I finally got around to listening to 1, 2, 3, 4, Craig Brown's book about the Beatles, which actually I bought when it came out, 2020, I think. And I don't know why, but I didn't carry on listening initially. But so many people have recommended it to me since then. And actually, humble brag, or maybe just straight brag, I met Craig Brown.

a few months ago at a party, and he said that he had really enjoyed my Paul McCartney interview. He said, oh, he managed to get some new stuff out of him, which is very impressive. I said, thank you so much, Craig. You know, I started your book, but I never finished it. I didn't say that. Anyway, finally got round to listening to the whole thing.

Really good. It's epic. It was one of those experiences where by the end of it, you're like, Oh, no. Where's my friend gone? I felt bereft. So many different textures and new ways to consider the legacy of the Beatles, which of course is one of my favourite of things to do. Beatles, Beatles, Beatles, Beatles.

And currently, I'm about to finish Lena Dunham's memoir, Fam-Sick. And that has been very interesting, but pretty hard. I mean, the main thing about her life is that she has been dealing with chronic illness. That sounds unbelievably painful. And so that plus all the kind of social media horrors and controversies that she has found herself embroiled in for one reason or another over the past few years. You need a strong constitution. Plus, wow, she really doesn't hold back. I wonder what the process was for writing that book.

Did she get in touch with the ex-boyfriends that she describes having sex with in microscopic detail and then feeling contemptuous about? But she writes well, and it's very interesting to hear about the process of making girls, which was a great show. All right, there you go. There's some distraction fodder for you. much to Diggery Waite and Claire Broughton from Hatrick for their production support and to

Seamus Murphy Mitchell for his. Thanks to everybody at A-cast for liaising with my sponsors. Thank you to Helen Green for her beautiful artwork. But thanks most of all to you. Wow, you listened to all of that waffle. Hope you're not feeling queasy. How would you feel about a hug? Come here. Hey, how's it going? Good to see you again. I missed you. Until the next time, we share the same sonic space. Please go carefully out there. I'm sorry to tell you that it hasn't got less nutty. Hello, bird. I feel bad now about scaring the bird away with my stupid shouting.

But it has to be done. Because, for what it's worth, I love you. Bye!