The Adam Friedland Show (Cumtown) - The Adam Friedland Show - Tom Fontana - The Lost Episodes

Episode Date: February 16, 2025

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Hello folks, we're back again with our third installment of the Lost Episode series. This week our guest was Tom Fontana, who as some of you know probably none of you. This week our guest was Tom Fontana who created the show Oz on HBO, which was about a maximum security prison He also worked on the legendary television series Homicide Life on the street It's a really good interview, I don't know if you guys are gonna care, but he's a really good guy and I think you could tell this is like this was recorded 20... what was it? 2023 it's it's interesting it because if you kind of match it with my arc in This was recorded 20, what was it? 2023. 2023. It's interesting, because if you kind of match it

with my arc, if you've been following the series, this is when I decided to try and start being a good interviewer. And during the edit, we had to cut out me saying, to some extent. So at some points, I said it every single question, and at some points I would say it up to three times during a question, to some extent.

I've become a better interviewer at this point, I think. He's a really good guy, really interesting conversation. I don't know if you guys are, who fucking cares what you think, honestly. I'm growing with confidence every day. I am. You people have no idea how high I can fly.

There's a story called Jonathan Livingston Segal. Kobe Bryant was between his rookie and second year in the NBA, he was lifting weights at Gold's Gym in Venice Beach, California, or Marina Del Rey, California. I don't know why it's important that I remember that. Because he said he had a boy's body and he got a call and he picked up his phone while

he was at the gym and the call said, Kobe, it's Michael. I'd like you to come to Neverland. And he said, this must be some sort of joke. And he hung up, and then he got a call back shortly thereafter. He said, Kobe, I'm not shitting you. It's actually Michael. And so he went out to Neverland Ranch and met fellow icon Michael Jackson. And he gave him a book called Jonathan Livingston Seagull about a bird who wanted to fly higher than any other bird.

And at some point he would fly too high. I don't know what's the story about? Can someone look that up? I've never actually read a book. Basically Michael sat Kobe down and he said listen I see you and I know that you're like me. You're different. And I know that they will give you everything and I know that they will take it away. And that is what society did to both those men. I'm gaining confidence every week. And much like that seagull, Jonathan Livingston Seagull

in this child's book that Michael Jackson gave Kobe Bryant, I will fly so high that it might kill me. He flew faster. He wanted to fly faster and higher than any seagull before him. He's bored with squabbling over food. Jonathan is passionate about flight and pushes himself to do everything he can. And every other seagull made fun of him. Every other seagull made fun of him.

This is going to be one of the funniest things that ever happens in American culture. A fool, a joke, a jester, a clown, will become one of the most important public intellectuals of our time. Kobe Bryant, Michael Jackson, Adam Friedland. I used to watch Oz with my family. I used to watch Oz with my family. On Sunday nights we watched Sopranos and then Oz. It was kind of the first prestige television series.

It kind of did set everything in motion for like how television changed. It preceded the Sopranos. Were it not for Oz, there would be no Black-ish. Next week we conclude our series with the much anticipated Hassan Piker episode. So stay tuned for that. And then the rest is history.

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So guys, that's $20 off, use our code, save on the gift that keeps giving. Exclusive $20 off Carver Mat Frames at AuraFrames.com, TAFS at checkout. Save. Our next guest is perhaps responsible for modern prestige television, I think. I thought you were going to say the end of civilization as we know it our next guest is responsible for a majority of modern-day slurs in the American Vernacular no everyone, please welcome writer producer Tom Fontana Normally, we do a big we do a big walkout, but you're complaining that

you're old and your knee hurts. I am old. I would have tripped on the thing and the face and the rug, it would have been a great opening. It would have been funny. I know. Yeah. I'm a drama guy.

I don't do funny. You don't do comedy. No. There were funny parts of Oz. There were. I actually thought it was the funniest show on television, but I was in the minority there. I thought it was the the funniest show on television, but I was in the minority there. I thought it was the sexiest show on television.

Ah, good. No, but I actually used to, we had another guest. Ernie. Ernie. I saw that one, yes. Who was the warden of Oz, and I told him when he was on the, I don't know if it actually made the episode, but I told him I used to watch it with my parents in succession with the Sopranos and watching that amount of prison rape with my mother was quite an experience. I think it

kind of like made me into the person I am today, for better or for worse. For better or for worse. Well, I, you know, my sweet Sicilian-American mother, I would call her every Sunday and she'd tell her what was going on. And I said, Look, Ma, there's a show coming on that I did and you cannot watch it under no circumstances. Can you watch it? And she said, What are you talking about? Of course I'm going to watch it. You're my son and I love you. I'm going to watch your show." I go, no, you don't really, you don't really want to watch. And she argued and we argued and then she won because she's the mother and and I said okay watch it but under two conditions. One is we never speak of it and number

two if a friend of yours says is that your son Tom's show, deny me. Okay? So two weeks go by nothing on the thing. And then third Sunday, she says, can I ask you one question about us? And I go, ma, we said we weren't going to talk about it. And she goes, just one question. I go, what? She goes, are any more of those nice boys going to die?

That's my mother. Was my mother. I thought you were going to say that she converted to the nation of Islam It's funny. I had a similar experience We used to do a podcast called come town. Oh my god is right and I for like six months I didn't tell my parents about it and then my dad saw on the internet that I was on a podcast called come town We tried to choose Nick chose the what he thought was the worst, least appealing name for anything. And then we just referred to ourselves as the Cum Boys.

And my dad called me furiously one day and he said, do you think a woman will ever marry a Cum Boy? And thus far he has been proven correct. After the women in America see this interview, Yes. your phone isn't gonna stop ringing. Oh my God, I've gotten pretty much every guest laid After the women in America see this interview, your phone isn't going to stop ringing. Oh my god. I've gotten pretty much every guest laid thus far. Really?

Yeah, yeah. We're going to be going to... I gave my dick to the Smithsonian. Did you? So I don't have much, you know... Well, I was going to ask you... I could get it back, but... It's so funny. I was going to ask you, actually, but we brought up penises within, what was it, 30 seconds of this interview.

But you must have seen probably over a thousand penises in the flesh in your life. Like a basically like a penis doctor's amount of penises. I would say, and it's not like when actors came to audition, I made them drop their drawers and show me their penis. I sort of went on faith. You did a casting couch. No I did nothing other than judge their acting and you know. I understand the character that played Adebisi said that his audition was behind a hole where he put his member through it but apparently he used to take his penis out a lot on set. Well, what was great about Adewale

was that if it was in the script that it said, Adebisi takes out his penis, he would say, I don't understand why I take out my penis in this scene. And I'd be like, well, if you don't want to take out your penis, don't take out your penis. I'm not going to force you to take out your penis. In the very next scene that we would shoot that day, he would just take out his penis. I'm not going to force you to take out your penis. In the very next scene that we would shoot that day, he would just take out his penis. It wasn't scripted. He would just improv taking his penis out.

Yeah. But he wouldn't do it in a scene where it was written. He would only do it in the scene after. I've tried to do that, but we don't have the... We're not shooting in 8K right now, so it wouldn't really pick up. Strike that from the record! Strike that from the record Adam! No that's great that's a nice prank to you can really only do that on a production where it's where it's pretty much all male. Yes, yes, there were no women at that particular moment. Yes.

But. You get it. Especially in this day and age. Yeah, though anyone who worked on it, we actually had sexual conversations with the cast and the crew, even though it wasn't required at the time because it was so intense. We wanted to make sure everybody, I mean I didn't want anybody to come on there and think,

oh what did I get myself into? So I was very serious about making sure that people felt comfortable. What was remarkable to me is how many people felt comfortable taking out their penis. Yeah I mean I think one thing that's interesting about the show is it was kind of at the forefront of having male nudity in popular media and and homosexual sex. Well we didn't just have homosexual sex. I thought of all kinds of sex. Well I kind of... No we didn't have bestiality. Yeah. Like if we had done another season, you would have. That's where I would have gone.

You would have had a you would have had an animal inmates. Yeah, I would have had like an anteater or something. That guy would have been the belle of the ball. Let me tell you. Nowadays, there's this conversation about representation and like homicide was like had some like launched careers of like so many like famous black we actually had At one time had more a more diverse cast

We had more people of color than we had white people as regulars on the show Yeah, because Barry Levinson was my business partner and he comes from Baltimore, so he knows the territory, our feeling was that the show, if we're gonna shoot a show in Baltimore, it needed to represent the town. And you couldn't just say, well, and look, there's all these white homicide detectives. It just felt dishonest.

Do you think that homicide could be made nowadays because I think like the night the interesting thing about that show is that things weren't. It wasn't like a car chase heavy program was like sexy was a violent it was it was a procedural it was a there's a lot of conversation happening on it was a sloppy procedural because we unlike law and order which was running simultaneous while we were on, we didn't solve all the murders and we didn't actually do the law very well.

We were just, we were more, we were more a people about the characters. That's what we really cared about was who are these, who are these men and women who face a dead body every day of their lives? So, I mean, that kind of comes from your background, I think, probably, because you came from the theater. So, like, a lot of your stuff, a lot of you, from what I've been able to discern, I'm not a very intelligent person, but like a lot of what you do is about the people.

It's not necessarily about like getting from point A to point B or like twist endings or... Plot has to come from character action, not from a writer's need to get to a story point. Right, exactly. There would be no sopranos. There would be no fucking entourage if it weren't for you. Like HBO was... Wait, is that something I'm supposed to be proud of? I think so, it's an amazing show. I've seen every episode. Okay.

I mean, I don't know if it's- Is that just wishful thinking on your part, that you're gonna have an entourage? There'd be no sex in the city, were it not for you. Like, so many of the shittiest women in America have moved to New York City because of you. It's true. So-

I think Sarah Jessica said said that's her responsibility. No, no, no, no. You were the first, you were like literally the first narrative television program on HBO. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But all I did was open the door for other creative people to do whatever shit they wanted to do. It's not like David Chase looked at at Oz and went I'm gonna do the New Jersey

Gangster version of Oz. Yeah, it is own. We had a story to tell he had characters He wanted to write about you know, okay I'm hyping it up and I'm saying like what you created is but it definitely has been Emulated plenty of times like in terms of prestige narrative television It is like one of the major artistic mediums today and like Oz was kind of at the forefront of well I appreciate you saying that and and all I'm saying is that what? What we did with Oz was just have an opportunity to break all the rules Yeah, and we broke all the rules

So that all that said was to everyone else coming into HBO is you can break all the rules, too So you in the opening credits of Oz you got the tattoo. I did and we see it. Yes Let's see it. Oh Z. Okay, so that's interesting because I was under the impression that you tattooed Dr. In front of it During the recent Pennsylvania senatorial election. No, but I will tell you something. I met Dr. Oz once, and he asked me to take a photograph

with him. Well, me, he didn't care so much about my arm, and he's leaning in very goofily. He's kind of like a schmuck. I didn't get to spend much time with him so I don't really I mean he certainly came off as a schmuck thank God it's like in Pennsylvania. Yeah yeah yeah. One thing that's interesting to me about seeing viewing you as a playwright and then as someone that likes Oz is that I think that those two con those two things are intrinsically linked in my

mind. I totally agree with you. Like Oz is like a play. Yeah I mean it's basically one very large set and the you know the Harold Perrineau character Augustus Hill is basically a Greek chorus. Yeah the fact that it's one location you have the flashback scenes that it feels like a play because of that but beyond that it feels like a claustrophobic show and to some extent it mimics then like what incarceration is like for the audience. Yeah. That was the intention to only escape from it in very short bursts of the flashback. And then for Augustus Hill to be a kind of not an escape so much as just a breath between one horrific act

and another horrific act. Did you have a Greek chorus in Homicide? It was more like detectives just talking about a case. Yeah. The thing is, the thing is, with cops, they have to drive to the crime scene and back from the crime scene. So they have a lot of time to bullshit.

Right. And that was easy, that was fun to write. With a prison, they don't really get that personal, you know what I mean, amongst each other. Because it's- No, it's all about people acting like, like bigging themselves up and like, posturing. Yeah, and the more vulnerability you have,

the more in danger you are. Correct. So, I had to find another way to sort of, you know, show off. I would be fucking eaten up on the inside. I would be too. No, you'd be all right. I mean, what would I do?

Join the fucking Aryan Brotherhood? What does a Jewish guy do on the inside? Pray. Pray? Why don't you tattle? Why people should tattle more, I feel like. Yeah? I feel like if I'm getting raped every night, I just like I'm gonna tattle tales why is it oh

snitches get stitches which what what's worse getting raped in the ass repeat I'd rather get snitch stitches but you could also get well let's let's just hope that you never have to go oh call me call me a snitch. Oh, boo hoo. Oh, I'm a snitch. Or at least I'm not getting brutalized every night. The thing is, you could snitch, and it wouldn't necessarily change anything. Oh, I'd snitch my way straight to the top.

Really? I'd be vice warden by the end of it. So you're currently on strike. You were telling us you're picketing for the WGA. I am. So one of the major sticking points of the strike right now is the influence of AI technology. So we put into chat GPT, we put a write a short synopsis of a sequel to the hit HBO television Oz takes place in 2023.

And I think you might be shit out of luck. I don't know if you're going to, I think you might be shit out of luck. I don't know if you're gonna, I think you might be out of a job. You want me to read it to you? Not particularly, no. Okay, but there's some good stuff in here. There's a character, Jamal the Jester Jackson, who's a charismatic and street smart inmate

who becomes a focal point as he maneuvers through the complex power dynamics and various of the various factions vying for control of Oswald State. It sounds like your character. You how could you would have never been able to come up with Jamal the Jester Jackson. I mean this is the computer is taking our job. This is very true and I'm very proud of the fact that I would have never come up with that. Why, why? This is gold right here. Black Joker's gotta be the best character. Black Joker, yeah.

Black Joker. That would be good. This is, even the name, how could, you have never come up with this. Oz colon reckoning. Mmm, yes. That's pretty good. That's pretty good. Here's one. I asked them to write it as a comedy. Okay. Oz colon hilarious havoc. They like alliteration, the computer. It delivers belly

laughs while celebrating the enduring bonds formed within the unlikeliest of environments. That's pretty good. That's pretty good. Can you walk us through the the musical episode? I think that's one of the best episodes of the entire series. Oh thanks. Well what happened was Harold Perrineau who was playing Augustus Hill called me and said before the season started and said he'd been offered a part in Matrix 3-2 I don't know which number. Was he also in a wheelchair in Matrix or am I wrong? I have to admit I never saw Matrix. You didn't see it.

I was busy that week. There's this guy Morpheus and then there's this guy Neo and he's the one. The one what? I don't know, just the one. Oh, okay. And then he's fighting the robot. And the robots are catchy. So, Harold says I got offered this part but it shoots in New Zealand or some godforsaken place.

I think they're shot in Australia, yeah. So he says, look, I can work it out that I can do a bunch of Oz episodes and then I'll be gone and then I can come back and do a bunch of Oz episodes. And I said, great, I'll work around it. Because my attitude about actors is is about anybody, anybody in our businesses, if there's an opportunity they should be given the opportunity they shouldn't be stuck working for me when they could be in God forsaken New Zealand shooting Matrix 12. Why God forsaken? I think there are good people

down there. No I know I'm just I've never been and probably will never be. No they're awful people you shouldn't go. Really? They're terrible. I mean they're all they were all Australia New Zealand is fine Australia you don't get me started on those. Yeah because they were all they all were prisoners from England right? It's like Oz the country. Yeah Oz the country which maybe that's our spin-off. This is the spin-off she Jewish Oz the country. It's called Israel and they controlled prison called Gaza. Oh my god. Little spicy. Little spicy. Sorry. I forget that you work in Hollywood so you're by de facto you've been bar mitzvahed.

I guess. I mean yes. David Simon did your Barman's vote? Yes. Okay so okay continue so he said that he wanted to work on it so then how the musical. So so I every so the episodes that he wasn't going to be around for I had to figure out something to fill the to fill the box as we called it. So I thought I'll do one that's a musical because I had JK Simmons who before he

was the most evil human being on the planet he was a Broadway musical star. I had actually seen him play Captain Hook in Peter Pan. Wow. And also he was in some other ones. Rita Moreno won an Oscar for West Side Story. Yeah. Maria. Maria. Evan Seinfeld was the leader of a band called Biohazard. That would been good if you cast Jerry. Well, you know about the Saturday Night Live episode. No, no, no. Okay, so the year that after the after Seinfeld went off, yeah, he was going to host the first evening of Saturday Night Live of the new season and he came up with this idea that because they ended the show in prison, yeah in the finale, Seinfeld would be sent to Oz. And they originally were going to

do it with their guys playing, you know they were going to do a set with the Oz set and they were going to do it with their guys playing the Oz characters. And Seinfeld said no I want to shoot it on the Oz set with the Oz actors. Which was the Nabisco factory, correct? Originally, yes. But you should look at this. I got to watch it. Was it funny?

He who has seen so many episodes of Oz, this is like the lost Jerry Seinfeld episode of Oz. Well, can you imagine what the nation of Islam would make of Kramer after what he said? Yeah, but this was before that. This was before that. That was before that. The joke is that they go to Oz and that Kramer

has a racist breakdown. I got it. An open mic night of Oswald correctional facility. And then he is shanked by the nation of his love All right. Yeah Is that one of the AI generated ideas? Cuz yes, it is sound back It just got a deal at Netflix really that idea that racist Kramer prison. Okay, let's go good. Good I think just to like if you'd like we could talk a little bit about your later projects and We can I know we're in the middle of a strike right now

So we can't like be pitching and I can't I can't really do too much promotion other than to say that I've got a couple things that will come That are on the way on the way. Yes. Do you have as someone that's been an artist for 50 years like half a century? Do you what what as someone that's been an artist for 50 years, like half a century, what are your lasting creative ambitions? Like what drives you five decades into a career? I would say as long as I can keep causing trouble and telling stories as honestly as I can tell them then that's if you finish a project how does it feel do you hate like what what I I hate it

while I'm writing it right I hate it while I'm writing it once I'm done with the final mix and the episode is complete I've never watched my old shows again. I think that's a pretty consistent answer that a lot of people that have been working, you know, as consistently as you have, like Woody Allen, for instance, I don't think he's ever watched, after he locks a picture, I don't think he watches anything. The fact that I'm now being compared to Woody Allen, it's... Well, you have a lot in common. You have a lot in common. Not... Both friends with Jeffrey Epstein?

What? I don't have a young wife. Well... I don't. You have an old wife? No, I have a... I'm a... I'm a widower. You're a widower. Yes. But you don't want to really talk about that. This is a comedy show.

I don't know. We don't know. We don about that. This is a comedy show. I Don't know we don't know we don't we have moments of Pathos really yeah, okay. I've been mostly good. It's the ones to cry huh you're the first guess not to cry Is that right? Yeah Okay, well, I can't fake so If I was an actor, I would cry. Would you? But I can't fake it. But you have acted.

You're a tattoo actor. I'm a main titles actor, yes. Your main titles tattoo actor. Yeah. I'm actually in the very last episode of Oz. Are you? During the fire? I am in a hazmat suit.

And I walk up to the guard station station and I turn off the lights. Oh kind of like like in a sitcom where they like look back at the empty apartment and Then they and then they turn off the light and then they lock the door. Yes, like Mary Tyler Moore Yeah That's who is based on though if she'd have worn a hazmat suit would have been much better fun here So to would have been fun hilarious. Funnier. I think so too. Would have been funnier. Hilarious.

Yeah. So you gave Norman Lear his first job in show business? I actually baptized him. You did? Yeah. I thought he was one of us. That's what happened. It didn't take.

He's still alive too? He is great. Norman is awe-inspiring. And I honestly hope he lives forever because as long as he's alive, I'm not the oldest guy in show business. You can't be the oldest guy. Mel Brooks is still alive. That's true.

I thought that after Karl Reiner went, I thought he'd go. I know because they were the great... They'd hang out every single day. Yeah, watching... Like action movies. Yeah, watching. Like action movies. Yeah, with a TV tray. Eating deli, watching action movies. Yeah, I think he said that their favorite movies were

movies where they say secure the perimeter. Those are good movies. Do you know that after Carl died, Mel Brooks, he asked if he could still go to the house and watch TV. And until they sold the house, they finally sold the house. That is so funny. But he went over every night and watched TV. It was a good TV maybe.

Maybe better than the one he had. Maybe better. The fecocca one he had. The fecocca TV. He has to go over there. There's no other TVs that he could buy. We are a terrible people, us. My father is just... Are you gonna cry? If you're gonna talk about your father, are you gonna cry? My father's a widower too. He's about to be here this week.

Nice. I have to go to singles bars with him. We have to go on the prowl. You want to come with us? I was going to try to do Jack Benny. Were you 71? Yes. He's 71 as well. You're kidding. You were born 1951?

Yes. So was my dad. What's your birthday? 12th of September. Oh, he's next week. Well, he'll be older than me then and I can't go out with people who are older than me. What are you talking about? You guys are pure. You kind of look similar.

Really? He's a little bit shorter. Yeah. I'm trying to set him up with a guy. Do you want to fuck my dad? No, you guys can be friends. Sorry, then I want you to have a new friend. Sorry you have enough friends because your friends were what?

David Simon and fucking Dick Wolf and whoever. Is he dead, Dick Wolf? No, he's not dead. Oh my God. My dad would love this if you guys went out together. You just don't want to go out with him. You just don't want to take him to Singapur. I'm not trying to pawn him off.

Yes you are. He dresses like you. No, the three of us to go out with him. You just don't want to take him to sing about him. I'm not trying to pawn him off. Yes, you are. I can feel it. He dresses like you. No, the three of us would go out. We'd be kind of a little bit of a rat track. Why are you yelling at me? I don't know why I'm yelling at you. I'm a fan.

All right. Any final thoughts? Can I leave now? Yeah, you can leave. Where are you going right now to see a friend? I'm going to go to see a friend of mine in the hospital. Because, listen. Why do you have to kill the vibe every time I ask a nice question? After this, going to the hospital will be more fun.

No, shut up. I'm just saying. You've enjoyed this thoroughly. The best hour and a half of my life. I really put the screws. No, is it less than an hour? I know, but it felt like an hour and a half. Shut up. Tom Fontana, my best friend. My dad's best friend.

Do you actually add more applause? Because that sort of sounds pathetic. No, no, no. That's the charm of the show is that it's like, ugh. You're going to do an episode, Adam. We've tricked another guest into being berated by you. Thank you so much, man. No, thank you.

You had fun? Yeah, I did. I did. So this was better than Charlie Rose or a little worse? Charlie Rose had a cold.