The Adventure Zone - The The Adventure Zone Zone: MaxFunDrive 2020

Episode Date: July 30, 2020

Happy MaxFunDrive 2020 everyone! It's time for another The The Adventure Zone Zone! We answer a whole bunch of your questions! But the real question we answer are the friendships we make along the way!Remember, you can become a MaxFun member today by going to maximumfun.org/join! Happy MaxFunDrive! Right now is the best time to start a membership to support your favorite shows. Learn more and join at https://maximumfun.org/jointaz

Hey everybody, welcome. Welcome. It's Max Fun Drive. And you know what that means? It's time for another VV Adventure Zone Zone, a podcast about a podcast where we talk about ourselves, I guess? Like we answer, you have sent in questions and we are going to very masturbatorily talk about ourselves and our great ideas for like an hour to an hour and a half. Maybe my least favorite episodes to do. I'm on the record as saying I don't like to do this.

But really? The problem is the the Adventure Zone zone is such a good name. I feel like we have to keep doing it. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's legal in my hand. Well, that's the thing. Just to keep the copyright on the Adventure Zone zone, we have to do at least one a year.

Yeah. And if one of us passes away, we have seven years to just like keep, keep it, keep refreshing. But the last one alive will get all of the money. It's our tauntine. Yep. All right. I'm looking forward to that. Yeah, right.

It's not going to be you, Dad. No, it's not. It's not. Now, come on. You've lived a full life already. And you've already won all those other tontines. So you all have sent in a lot of questions, and we're going to try to answer as many as we can. But first, the reason we're doing this, as I said, is it's MaxFund Drive.

So real quick, once a year, we offer people the chance to become a MaxFund member. And what that means is you go to Maxbonefund.org. slash join. You pick a membership level that works for you. You pick which shows you listen to and your, the money you give goes directly to the shows you support with a little bit going to Max Fund to help them keep the lights on. This year is a little bit different. We're running it for a month and it's super low pressure. So if you're able to become a member, awesome. We totally appreciate it. Maximumfund.org slash join. If you're not able to, that's totally cool too. Everybody's totally cool. and we love you no matter what.

You know, we always say whatever level works for you, but I think this year maybe it's whatever level works for us. Why don't we have people sort of clear it with us like, this is what I'm thinking, what do you guys need from me? You know what I mean? Well, that's kind of the opposite of what I was saying. Where it's like up to dim. Is that sort of where we're at?

Sure, sure, sure. So let's get into the questions. So this first one, this is pretty all-encompassing, really. this is from Ed, as a content creator, how do you balance out telling a story you want to tell while also listening to feedback from the audience and incorporating audience feedback into what you do going forward? I don't see why those two have to be different.

I don't know. At least in balance and amnesty, I never felt like I had an idea for like the narrative arc of the whole story as like it panned out from you guys playing the game and from when I had prepared, and then it wasn't like the audience, like, their feedback or whatever,

like, completely negated or, like, tugged it in a different direction. I don't, I don't think those two things have to be at ends. Yeah, I think it's actually kind of the benefit of doing it the way that we do it,

because, like, if you write a novel or, like, make a movie or something, you don't get feedback on it until it's finished and released. Yeah. And we,

as we're, like, creating it, we can kind of see like, oh, this, this, you know, NPC kind of struck a chord with people or like, oh, people are kind of very interested in this plot line, right? And we can kind of craft it and tailor it as we go. I think the tricky thing is trying to find a balance between, like, subjective and objective feedback. Because, you know, everybody has different things that they're interested in and things where they're like, I want more of this. And it's like, okay, cool, I understand you want more of that.

But does that actually, like, contribute to the quality of the product? Or is that just your personal, you know, your personal aesthetic? And so that's kind of the thing where it's about, like, filtering and looking at what the actual, like, nugget of the feedback is. And, like, that's something that I've been working really hard on is, like, kind of aggregating the feedback and saying, okay, so, you know, it looks like the thing that I need to work on because like these 20 people all kind of circled around the same idea. I need to work on this without that actually changing the plot, you know? For sure. Related question. Here's one that I guess Billy and Liza or Lisa both in. How much preparation does everyone do before they sit down to play? Maybe listen to the previous so to review some notes or just roll up and start playing, which is interesting because like I feel like we've talked about that from the DM perspective.

but I am curious specifically, I guess, how Justin and Dad think about prep before we record, because I admit I don't really do a whole lot, aside from making sure my, like, character sheets in order. I do mainly research into the culture, fair world culture. I feel like what has made this character interesting to play is where he sort of doesn't necessarily click with the other people in terms of their cultural values, I guess you could say. So that has been sort of my main focus. And let's see, I listened to the last episode. That may seem kind of obvious, but like we go off in two weeks without recording. So I listened to the previous episode, usually at 1.5x.

Oh, yeah. And I, of course, not a lot of my parts, I slow that down so I can really save rate. I slow that down to 0.75 to really like, man, with the fear bog, that's got to take forever. That'd be bad. Well, it takes a lot of time to soak it all up, you know? I don't want to miss a little, any bomb walls. Can I tell you a little secret here about editing with the fear bog?

Is like, I have to find a, like, it's a, like, surgical of like when I'm doing it with the, like, pauses for the fear bulk, where I have to decide is that, a character choice or is that Justin trying to think of the next thing to say? I do more prep for Argo than I have for any of the other characters. I also listen back to the previous episode and actually take notes. And then I try to, since I'm playing a new, I'm playing a rogue for the first time, I've been going back and trying to read up as much as I can on how to do it right. Like watch a lot of the, you know, like videos and read a lot online.

I'm basically trying to start from the ground up. And then a lot of it is setting the ambiance for me. It's, you know, the lighting, you know, and being relaxed. calm and try not to screw it up too bad. Yeah, you know, so I have two questions for you, Dad, based off of that. One is, well, the first one is, when you say that you do more for Argo than you have with other characters, is that because of the character of Argo or just because, like, you're trying to stay up on what's happening more?

Like, why? I think, well, for one thing, I really wanted to try to do something different with Argo. than previous characters. I mean, I at least started out that way. I really initially thought of him as being a real alpha type and a real bold swashbuckling, you know, ha, ha, ha, you know, kind of a Douglas Fairbanks Jr. kind of thing, but...

That, aren't there any older actors you could reference? Certainly, there's someone from the silent film era. Real Charlie Chaplin, Buster. That's the only ones that people know. Actually, Douglas Fairbanks started in the silent era, so yeah, that still was. There we go. You did it. Checkmark.

But that kind of character doesn't really lend itself to group dynamics. I mean, it's usually a character like that is the captain of the ship, not, you know, and not the second mate or something. And it just became obvious fairly early on that Argo was not going to be a leader. and and so I played it differently. I'm trying to play him a little bit differently. I really, I was curious where you were going to go with Argo after like the first few episodes or so.

I think Argo is really interesting as a character that you're playing because I don't think he's anything like Merle or Ned in that like he is very like quiet and observant and like generous. in a way that, like, I don't think any of the characters you've ever played have been. I'm very interested in, like, Argo's whole, whole arc. I really wanted him to be a loner. And in retrospect, that was a stupid initial choice to make because we can't be. You know, we're doing a team thing, doing it together.

And so I think I had to, I mean, I mean, I'll be honest. and this is this is really kind of revealing more background than I thought but you know I think we reached a point where it became obvious to the to the all four of us that one of the three roommates had to be the frontman had to be the lead vocalist in the band and kind of lead the action and obviously because I think of their personalities and also because of the where their characters are it'd be, you know, Fitzroy needed to be that person. So I think at that point, you know, it became important for Argo to have his own stuff. But I think it kind of clicked for me where we started half joking about the whole corporation thing.

I think that really snapped things into focus for me. And I'm not being funny that that really was kind of a key moment, you know, kind of establishing our roles in on the show and the group. It kind of had to happen that way. I feel like because I feel like you were kind of spinning our wheels a little bit until we hit that point. And like as uncomfortable as I was, like, uh, like taking, taking charge as it were, uh, this framework of like a corporation, I think made sense. And it's also just sort of like mechanically speaking, being the character with high charisma, like being the face of a team kind of does foist you into that, that position. Um, Well, I mean, I can say to that, like, I think it's more than that.

Because I think it is, I will say, as like the DM and kind of the one, you know, kind of leading the story is if you look at the three characters and like what they want, like what their thing is, like the fear bog, I don't think the fear bog wants to be a leader. I think like the fear bog is like pure and unadulterated like support. just happy to be there. He's, you know, a member of the party. And while I think Arco could be a leader, I think he also has it within himself to like follow orders. And, you know, I think that he has that kind of crewman, you know, member of a crew mentality that I just don't think Fitzroy has. And I think Fitzroy has such a conflicted, like, thought about what he wants that, that it makes it easier to to tempt him with power. You know what I mean?

And so leadership, I think, is more of a carrot for Fitzroyd than it is for the other two. But so my other question, well, I guess the other thing is like, not just dad learning to play a rogue. Like Argo is like our first rogue, pure rogue in playing these games. And like, I've had to learn how to DM for a rogue too. Because I realized like about 15 episodes in, a lot of my understanding of rogue is built off

when I played a rogue in fourth edition, which had significantly different rules for like sneak attack and stealth rounds and stuff. Yeah. Learning curve. Okay, let's see. Another question. Who else wants to ask the question?

You know, I was not looking at the questions. This is on me. Okay. You know, I was kind of just enjoying being interviewed in a James Lipton kind of style. Where can I find them? Everybody's talking about it. Well, I shared it with you on the docks in Google Docs.

Google Docs. Got to get to the Docks. Here's a question somebody asked for me that I can answer while Justin finds the thing. For Travis, and this is from Avery, are there any NPCs that you wish you could explore further in the show and why? And in a similar vein, are there any NPCs you're surprised about the fan reaction to? I hope that there still is a chance for it. of Crush and Jimson, the kind of battle teachers,

former arena champions. I just like them. I would like to spend more time with them. It's not necessarily surprised just so much as I'm really glad that everyone likes Rainier and Festo so much because they're like my two favorite to get to do. Festo is just, they're so much fun to do it.

Like, it's the kind of thing where I think Festo is the one character where like, whatever Fitzroy or anyone says to them, I just kind of open my mouth and say whatever. And then I'm like, yep, that's what Festo would say. If Festo is just a lot of fun to be. Yeah, I'm very, the thing I am, I am the most into this season I have been now that we are like doing this sort of war ever. effort like mass effect to i think it's mass effect too right in mass effect two the one where you have to like fly around the galaxy like essentially creating a war like uh machine for your side maybe it's mass effect three i may be misremembering but like that idea is very cool because now we can like fold in whoever we want uh like justin did in the last episode where you you uh what did you

say you promoted Sabor to secondary character? Like that idea. I, like, there's a lot of characters who now we have a very good reason to forge a stronger social link with is because, like, we're going to need their help. So, yeah, I'm going to tap Rainier in that way and a big way, I feel like. That for me is like kind of my big takeaway, just to get a little off topic for a second from this, from, from graduation so far is like 20 episodes in is like when I feel like I finally said like, okay, now all the pieces are in place, go. And I think if, like, if I could do it all again, I think I would have restructured it completely differently to, like, introduce the, like, it's tough, right? Because, like, the idea was kind of evolving as I went. And, like, I knew we were

building towards war, but, like, I kept building other, like, plot things in that I wanted you guys to know before we got to that. And I think, like, I spent too long building the house before I, like, that you move into it. But now I'm really looking forward to like, this, I mean, episode 20 that just went out was like, I only had like one third of a page of PrEP, like of notes. And the rest of- And it was fun as fuck.

Yeah, whatever you guys wanna do, go for it. And that's what I'm gonna try to do more. Do you think, I have a question for you, Travis, because I know that that's the thing you struggle with. It's the thing I struggled with in balance and certainly in Amnesty too, is that idea of just like constantly moving the goalposts of like when it's ready for everybody to just have

freedom and control in. Do you feel a thing I wonder is if the school setting was antithetical to that, or not antithetical, but made it more challenging because school is like as a concept like prescriptive. Like school is a place where you go and the, there are rules, right? And there are, I mean, there's rules from a like, you know, student body standpoint. Like you can't be out after this long or whatever. But there's also like, you have to go to this class.

You have to listen to your teachers. I think it created a good jumping off point, but I think I definitely have felt restriction from it. Like, very early on, like, five episodes in, I realized, like, am I really? Like, I set up this, like, five years of school. And I was like, am I really going to try to, like, have summer vacations and, like, semester breaks and shit? Like, it made it so, like, if you listen to balance, like, I don't know, how long

balance take? Who knows? How long the story goes? Is it weeks? Is it months? Is it a year? But I mean, like, even then, it's, it's, it, that wasn't like a prescribed term. It had to, where me saying, like, five years is like, that's way too fucking much.

That's why I, that's why I redid it sort of and said six months. Like, I'm going to shorten that, that timeline a lot. And I think maybe, I think the thing was is, like, I went into it with a lot of world building done. And a lot of, like, I. know I want to build towards a war, but I also was kind of figuring out a lot of big plot stuff on the fly as I was going, because I went into it not wanting to prepare too much. And I think now with 20 episodes under my belt as a DM, like, I have a better idea of the things I wish I had known going into it, because there's a lot of stuff I would have paired back and a lot of stuff,

like, because the other thing that was really restrictive in the beginning that I had to let go of was like, I didn't want the school to feel empty. I was like, you know, this is a school full of teachers and students and stuff. And it's like, well, but that involves like, hey, here's day one, 30 character. And it's like, it's very difficult to like do that. And if I could go back. Yes, it is. Yeah, right. And so like, yeah, because you ran into the same thing with commitment, right?

With commitment. Yeah. Here's everybody, and it's just too dense. And so, like, that's definitely something I would have done differently. Here's one for Mr. McElroy. Oh, no. That's me. Oh.

Does the Fairbog actively not want a name, or is it just a matter of not finding the right one yet? So this has been a really interesting thing because the Fearbog doesn't have a name. because this culture doesn't they don't do it and the most of the names that they started out with using were so bad that I could only push against and it's just like they kept posting up such dog shit time and time again that all I could do was stand in front of the hoop and just swat the attempts out of the way and then eventually they stopped trying which is sad for me because I figured he would have a name I am kind of bummed out that like master fearbolg or just the fear ball has been like the the the the the nomenclature that everyone has sort of just settled on but it also is like I

don't know how to steep like it feels like I'm very good at giving myself nicknames right even amongst my dearest nearest and dearest self-styled uh uh names like hoops right a man or the kids kid, which never really... Or Dr. Beans. Yeah. Dr. Beans is not one of them. The real ones are ridiculous enough without juicing my stats. But I'm really good at that, and I thought that the Fairball would, like, get a name at some

point that would stick. But, you know what it is? It's weird. It's like... Him not having a name made... Making a name for him into such a big thing. Yeah. That it couldn't evolve, like, a nickname.

would you know what i'm like you know it can't just be like um um it's just such a big thing not having a name that like some cast off attempt uh can't really is is not really able to evolve in that vacuum i don't know if that makes sense no it does and another thing is like i feel like our constant attempts at trying to give you a name early on was uh representative of our sort of character's relationship at that time and our relationship to the culture that you came from and the way that you still adhere to it. And so our like backing off, I'm trying to name you. I feel like comes from a, us like finally coming to an understanding that like we are, right? Like, it's not like I'm uncomfortable with the fact that you don't have a name and so I'm going to

keep trying to name you. And instead it's like I, this is not bullshit. Like this is something I actively thought. And the reason I think I'm the first one that said master fear bold that like I was inspired by, um, uh, Final Fantasy 9 is my favorite Final Fantasy game. And there's this great moment. early on where this unlikely group of heroes has come together, and one of them is this very hemmed up knight named Steiner, who, like, upon first meeting, this tiny little kid of a black mage who's very mysterious just instantly recognizes that he is, like, very, very powerful and adept, even though he is, like, very humble and starts just calling him, like, master wizard, just without even making a big deal about it. That, like, that sort of reverend,

for the Fearbulg, I feel like is, is like why Master Fearbulg stuck, at least for me. And it's why like it is the only name that makes sense and why trying to give you new names at this point feels like completely ridiculous. I also gave it a lot of thought. And on it, and I'm being honest, Juice, I really, oh, juice. I backed off of it on purpose. Just like Griffin said, I felt like the fearful not having a name was definitive of the ferville culture. And I realized that, you know, you were resistant to them, mostly because, as you said, they were terrible. But I think after a while, I realized that him not having a name was part of the,

one of the things that defined him because he is so adherent to his culture and his beliefs and the way he looks at things that I actually have a note. I actually have a note on the whiteboard that says, no fear bulb names. I mean, I ran into that when I did the dream sequence episodes, you know, because, like, we had talked a lot. We've done a lot about, like, hero and villain names and, like, cool, you know, monikers for them and stuff.

And so, like, Argo got to be the Kraken. And Fitzroy was the Stormbringer and the Lightning Lord and the Thunder King. And then, like, I got to the Fearbug and I tried to, like, well, what's the Fearbug's cool, like, superhero moniker? And the more I thought about it was like, I, like, nothing fits right. And so I kind of thought about it a little bit in like a Guy Richie kind of naming thing of like, the Fear Bulg is like his, that's how people know him is capital T, capital F, the

fear bulg. Right. you know um he does have a name that i call him there's a let me put it a different way there is a name on his character sheet yes uh and i hesitate to say that because i don't want it to become like a big deal it's just who shot mr burns yeah i i have a name for him um that i call him uh that kind of like i don't know that that that felt important to me that i know who who they are um and who he is It's Justin 2. It's Dr. Beans.

It's actually Michael K. Fox. Okay. Do you know that Michael J. Fox's original middle name started with an A, but he changed it because he didn't want people to say Michael's a fox. Ah. Very clever. True.

Okay. So this is kind of a question having nothing to do with graduation. For everyone, what is your favorite one shot? That's from Aaron. It's real hard to be. Bigfoot stole my car with my friend's birthday present inside.

And maybe I'm just saying that because it's one that I didn't have to DM. And so it was like the most low pressure for me and the most fun. But that was a I just remember thinking that that was like a fucking hoot. Yeah. That's mine as well. I mean

it's fine. Oh man. I just can't get past hoot nanny. I just just that was every single moment of that was just so cool and and having had a great reaction and being able to stand on the stage of the rhyman and and sing together was one of my favorite moments of all time not just you know doing the one shots I thought that was a blast um I was going to say the one that I DM I was just about to mention I thought people enjoy and now

I think it's been sullied in retrospect I think Lords of Crunch was a lot of fun I also think my favorite part of it was just the sort of wild chaotic terrified energy that Justin had the sort of quietude that you brought backstage

was really sort of delectable to snack on but you also did a phenomenal job that will also actually you know what it's funny you should mention that show Because it is, it should be.

But you mentioned it, Cheston. Well, it's just going to be. It should be in the bonus content by the time you're listening to this for maximum fun donors. If you want to hear Lords of Crunch, my adaption, adaption is not a word. My adaptation of the, in 1983 fantasy novel, Lords of Crunch, as a, what do you call role-playing game? You can enjoy that one shot. It's, I was re-listened to it. It's pretty buck wild, I would say.

It's a buck-wild thing to hear. So you can hear that. And I think Toot-Nanny, is that? Tutan-Nany will be up at some point, yes. Okay. That's the dad-run sequel to Houtanani. And also, I'd be remiss if I didn't mention Dadlands, which was, I think. Dadlands needs an honorable mention.

live show that we all played on as Brennan's friendly Mulligan man up just being able to like get silly. Brennan's a legend. I'm glad Aaron asked about this because I think that the reason you know I had a lot of fun doing all the balance live shows but I think the reason none of us are like picking those is like those that were really fun but a little restrictive right because like we were playing within a canon and playing within the timeline and and all that stuff. And then when we kind of like let loose a little bit and said like, you know what, let's get silly with these.

Like, I think that they represent what makes live shows different from regular episodes. I'm just like, all right, listen, let's do it. And I've just had so much fun doing those. Yep. I certainly enjoy a lot more. I think the shows we did with balance, like I'm really happy with how we created sort of, you know,

one shot story. in the balance universe, like, with those characters, because it, like, allowed me to fuck around with some ideas that I didn't necessarily get to get to with the campaign or, like, you know, any, any random idea I had, like, oh, I'm, I like wrestling now. Let's do a wrestling one or, you know, whatever. Being able to do that was very satisfying, but also just, like, the, there is something different about doing it not in balance that is a bit more low stakes, and therefore like a bit more, you get a bit more freedom to just do

goofy stuff. Balance got really hard to return to at a certain point in the live things. It started to feel like honestly, I don't know if you guys feel this way, and this is overstating the point a bit, but it started to feel like being a cover band of ourselves. Yeah. Like it started to feel like I was trying to remember

like how these characters sounded and trying to remember story, trying to keep a story in my head. that we finished a couple years ago and it's like a few years ago at this point and it's like it just started to feel like I don't want to do the thing

it's such an important story to me I started to worry at some point that it would I didn't want to do the thing that would mess it up or the thing that would like and that's not real I mean that's not a real concern because you know explain a lot of that way but like I wanted to to

we got to a certain point where we all kind of felt like this is we have done the things that we are doing with we need to do with this. So I don't know if we would return to it live at this point. I feel like it would be strange. Unless we had a really good idea.

I mean, I have to be a really good idea. But never say never. This question's from Jen. We literally left in a hundred years of adventure. Yeah. Be able to bullshit around. Oh, you did it. But our checking accounts are running low.

Let me tell you about this other tale. I've just recalled one of their greatest adventures Most lucrative Did you hear about the time Magnus saved Christmas? We fucking did that. We've done that twice. I know. Tumblr, take us back.

Jen wants to know, how much did you guys discuss the backstories for the Thundermen behind the scenes? I'd love to know how much of creative writing was improv. That was the episode 19, the dream sequences, was improv versus established behind the curtain. Also, another thing I did that was, restrictive for myself, I'm really glad I started naming episodes, giving them actual name so I can remember where they went. But that means that every time I finished editing an episode, I have to come up

with a name for the episode. And sometimes that's the hardest part. You absolute fool. You dunce. Creative writing was really thrilling for me because I had known this backstory for a long time, because the accounting thing just kind of popped up. Like, it just made so much sense to me. And at a certain point, like, the fearball getting obsessed with accounting, because it is so foreign to him is something I really liked about the character. So the idea that I had for a long time was that, and I don't know if this came across in the episode,

was that he was banished for records. recognizing economics, like basic economics, of like hoarding berries for the tribe when Barry's supply is high and saving it for when demand is high, but supply is low. And by recognizing that basic economic concept is how he got himself banished from the tribe. So, or from his clan, rather. So Travis knew the basic beats of that, but the details of the story, which are such a, like, important story to the Fearbulg, were really being sketched out in real time. I mean, it was very creatively thrilling because, like, Travis and I were

kind of making it up together in the moment. And that was really exciting because it's such a seminal thing. And that is one of the cool storytelling things that I feel like, um, this sort of improvisational role-playing game style of storytelling is like uniquely suited to this idea of like collaboratively creating a story in in the moment which which we've done you know for years but rarely are the stakes that high and i don't think we i don't think between the three players that we collaborate i mean that we shared very much of the information at all um and and i think that kept it kind of cool. You know, early on, Travis and I had talked about what Argo's motivations were going to be in his backstory.

I think the only thing we did when we shared information between the three of us was when we were creating the characters because I knew I wanted Argo to be like a sailor. I wanted it to be, you know, from the sea. And I think Griffin had been thinking about some kind of aquatic character as well. Yeah, yeah. And so early, I mean, and we, we shared that information so that we, you know, we didn't, wouldn't have too much crossover. But, you know, that has been one of, one of Argo's main things. and it was something that Travis included was him investigating Fitzroy, because he was charged with investigating Fitzroy.

And I think that's kind of how he started finding out about Fitzroy. And all the stuff with the Commodore and stuff, that was stuff that Dad had told me kind of behind the scenes. It started, I think the first time he met the Jackal was me, like I said, like what happened with your mom, right? And that's why Jackal says Mariah, and that introduces like, who, oh, who's Mariah, what's going on? And so, like, I knew all that stuff.

But it was interesting me, because I was surprised in the moment we were discussing it, of dab being like, you know, I've kind of moved away from that, that Argo had kind of grown beyond just this desire for revenge. And so then I got really excited because I had been planning to then, you know, introduce the Commodore as an NPC in the next episode. And I was like, ooh, this is going to be so much fun. But yeah, that surprised me. That was great. And it was funny because when Griffin actually made a comment in the most recent episode, I think it was Griffin called Argo the Count of Monte Cristo.

Yeah. Or was that you, Justin? No, that was me. It's Griffin. And I, you know, and I thought, oh, wow, I think that subconsciously that's exactly what I was going for. And I hadn't even realized that the whole swashbuckling and, you know, seafarer in life and the revenge factor. But like I said, when Argo started off, he was one character. But, you know, over the course of these 20 episodes, you know, I think he has grown and changed.

And I'm kind of interested to see where he goes with the whole thing with the Commodore and everything else. I have a question for you guys. Yeah. Something we struggled with in amnesty. And I think that it maybe is somewhat improved in graduation, but it is, it's difficult. It's still a challenge. I don't think, I think part of the reason that balance worked as well as it did and part of the reason that it was a strong as it was. And this is

that occurred to me like as we're talking about this because I try very hard to never think analytically about anything I've ever done. But one of the things we struggle with is the natural relationship between the characters and building a rapport between the characters and finding

time to do that and space to do that in a way that feels organic but also fits into like a larger storytelling thing. I feel like there are a lot of strong stories in Amnesty, but I feel like their relationships were never as, or at least between the three leads, were never as close as they were in balance. Sure.

Do you guys feel that, do you feel like, I was sitting here thinking about it, and I feel like balance, the balanced characters were much, probably the closest to who we actually are as people. Does that make sense? Like, I feel like, and I feel like we were, because we were leaning into that, a lot of the, the relationships sort of took care of themselves. Does that, does that ring true to you? Yes. I think that's, I think that's fair, but I also think it is, if you use amnesty as like one into the spectrum, I feel like your three characters were so different. And you came from such different places. And when you came together, it was to, you know, for this cause, but it's not like you had literally anything in

common before that. And so I feel like you had maybe a bit of a longer road to hoe. Um, not just in your identities, but like your backstories had nothing to do with each other, your, you know, et cetera, et cetera. And in balance, and also I would argue in graduation, like we, the characters are a bit more, like, what's the word I'm looking for? There's more to fill out there. And so you can fill that out together in a way that like, I feel like Aubrey Ned and and Duck were pretty well fleshed out before, you know, the show even started, which is a thing we've talked about before, like, something we wish we could sort of handle again with amnesty. But I don't know.

I feel like graduation is much better in that regard than amnesty. Like, I feel like the relationship between the characters is better. It's kind of two separate questions. I'm curious where you guys your character, you think the characters that are closest. Like, obviously, I'm a magical gay elf. this is not new, but a lot of tacos impulses are

very close to my own. Right. Yeah. I mean... The rhythms. The, that duck is was very much not me. I was very much not playing myself with duck. And the fear ball is maybe somewhere in between. But, uh, I don't know.

I mean, yes, Magnus, like, I think what it is is there was a lot less artifice. Like, eventually, right? And I think all of this is like the same. same answer, right? Because I think when we started playing balance, we weren't trying to create a huge epic story. So it was very much just like, I don't know, this is what I do, right? So there was a lot less layers between us and the characters. And I think, but even then, I would say, like, Aubrey is pretty close to me. Like, aside from, you know, being a bisexual Puerto Rican woman,

other than that, it's dead on. And I kind of, it was kind of something I made a, you know, conscious choice for the setup of graduation of like I didn't want you all to know each other before because I didn't want you all to have to justify being there together. So it was like, yeah, you're all, you know, Terrace House style meeting each other for the first time on this day. And much like, you know, I have people that like I was in college with and it's like now afterwards, I'm like, I don't know if I was friends with them, but I hung out with them all the time. and like I have I've been surprised a little bit because a lot of it was not intentional how much of like graduation has in a lot of ways kind of taken on aspects of what the kind of college experience is like and that was kind of why to jump back for a second creative writing that episode was so fun for me to prep because there was a little bit of like looking at how their like post-college, post-school, you know, lives would kind of divulge or stay together or like,

you know, that I saw the fear bulk is very much the like settling down family man kind of person and not like the, I'm still out here adventuring and just stuff like that has been really fun to see. And like, you know, dad talking about how Argo has kind of grown from like being and found himself a little bit more as he's been at college. And stuff like that is like not stuff I intended when I started the arc, but it's really fun to see how that like being in school and like interacting with other characters and students and stuff kind of naturally makes that happen. And it's been really interesting, really interesting to play. I mean, it's a thing I haven't like fully discussed with you guys. But one of the things that I've been kind of doing as we played is having all of these four. versus, whether it be like chaos or gray or Higelmiss or just like the school in general,

the Hoarek Oversight Guild, who's sitting there going like, this is what you have to do, this is how this works, this is how the system works, this is what needs to be done. And watching how you guys push back against that, which feels very like student in college learning their place in the world, learning, you know, what the thing is. So like I wanted to create all of these boundaries and restrictions for you guys. to kind of bounce off of and find your place in the world. And you guys are doing great at that.

Which character your characters do you think is the closest to you? Closest to me? You know, I think your point is well taken. I think that when we're doing balance, it was so new and so different. I didn't really see it as an acting exercise. I saw it as just playing.

and so probably when it comes to philosophy and everything else, I think Merle probably closest. I had the most fun playing Ned. I had, you know, I felt like Ned had a lot of the same BS, you know, bigger than life, center of attention, ego maniac that I embody. Argo has actually, and I've given this. a lot of thought too, Jus. I'm glad you brought this up. Argo, for me, has been the most work. And I also think that it's reflective, not just for me, but I think of all four of us,

and I include Travin this as the GM. It feels to me like we play graduation more as the characters instead of the four of us. You know, like in balance and I think the other arcs, it was a heavier percentage of us being us and then going into character. And at least for me in graduation, I really kind of focus on being Argo and not being dad.

Does that make any sense at all? And I feel like it's, it's it has taken on more of of playing the characters you know that's why i and i i wanted to raise my acting game in graduation from the from the other arcs and i'm just going to come right out and tell you it's uh because of you juice you to me and i've said this in conventions i've said this in other t-t-a-z-z-s you're acting in all of these arcs always impresses me a lot. Thanks, Dad.

Well, because you get the character, you know the character. Playing the Fear Bowl can't be easy. And especially early on, it had to have been tough. Because of what we do in the very nature of this is, oh, there's a blank space. Got to fill it with some dialogue. Got to throw in a funny joke. That's where you're fucking wrong, bud.

Absolutely wrong. Do you know what a joy, what an absolute delight it is? Okay, this is why playing tacos fucking hard is because it was all, it was all goof, goof dilda, right? Like, it's all like he had to have like the line in the moment. That was just self-styled, coolest one in the room, right? He had to be like the smart aleck or the smartest one with the best one liner, best singer. With the fear bog, I could just fucking chill until I have.

something good and then bring my good shit and then peace out. It is a delight. It is a delight to not carry that way. You know what a druid can do? Change into a dog and swing a limb. It's fantastic. Druids can't do anything. I will say, I also think the two things that have stood out to me, one, I remember the first

time the Fear Bowl talked and that like was like, okay, well, here we go. But it also, I think, has done a lot to help. like leave space for people to talk. Like it has improved over talk a lot in playing the game. Cause you have to wait for it. We have to wait. We have to leave the window there.

We have to give an opportunity for it. The Fearbug voice was crafted because I was very sick a week before. And then that was the voice that came out. When I tried to do a low voice, that was the voice that came out. And then the next week I was better. And I was like, oh, fuck, I'm not sure I can get back there. It's like having, it's like one of those days where you wake up and you have a perfect Michael Kane impression.

And you just have it for a little bit. And it's like, yeah. It's like, where did this come from? I didn't know I had a Michael Kane in there. And then it disappears. That's how I was so worried about the fear ball that I wouldn't get it back. I studied a lot of, like, Icelandic, that area accents that felt good to me. Like, that felt like the place that the fearball would, would, his accent was sort of refer to.

So anyway, yeah. Well, as long as I made one bad assessment, let me make another assessment. Griffin, have you been digging the hell out of playing Fitzroy? I was going to ask the same thing, how it's developed and how you feel about him. Yeah, I've really enjoyed playing Fitzroy. I think that, Travis, you've sort of teed me up for success in a lot of ways because there's a lot of stuff that I find interesting about playing Fitzroy. but the flirtation with villainy is something that I am like extremely, extremely into.

I think I'm sort of dabbling in the question of like what evil is, especially in the context of a game that codifies evil as much as D&D does is like fun from a narrative element. And like I don't think Fitzroy is a bad person or an evil person, but he is like, in a way sort of defined by his ambition, I guess is one way of thinking about it. And like how does that, what are the implications of that? Well, yeah, because that's something we have actually struggled with before

because I remember in commitment, I was like, I'm gonna make Nadia kind of a jerk and like she doesn't really get along with people well. And then we started playing and I was like, I can't, like I cannot play that consistently. Like that is not something I could do. So when I went into, when I was like creating this, and I'm thinking in terms of like hero and villain

and like evil as like a classification rather than the thing of like, what does it actually mean, all that stuff? And it's all about like, the best villains are villains who like think that they are right. Like it's the reason like Lex Luthor who has like no powers aside from like ambition and smarts and money is such an interesting villain is. Lex Luthor thinks Superman is the bad.

guy and that he is the good guy. And that is Thanos too. Yeah, right. For me, it's a huge, a huge part of it is Fitzroy. And I guess in a way like myself, pushing against some of the core conceits of this entire world and finding them like extremely immoral and questionable. Like this, this world that has turned war into like theatrics and turned, you know, has, has, has, has, commoditized or commodified rather, you know, the idea of good versus evil in a way that is, I think if you take a step back from it, like pretty gross. I think it's like it's a very, it's a neat conceit for a fantasy world. I'm not saying you are gross for coming up with it. But I think that it is a it is a shit system. It is a shit system of of governance. And I think

that there is, it is very difficult for me to separate my own, uh, feelings of our real, our real world, our real sort of system of governance being a completely shit system. And so like in a way his, like the way he feels about the world and the, the links at which he is like willing to bend unjust rules, I, like, I don't think of as bad. I think of as sort of, I don't know, a natural reaction to a shit system like that. And let me be clear. The system is supposed to be shit. Oh, no, I know. I mean, but I'm just saying like that even from the very beginning going into it,

I was like, this is not good. Like, this is, it is, it is one of those structures that I was talking about that I want you guys to push against, right? Because like, the thing that I wanted, as we set out, is like to have characters who are branded as heroes, like the Commodore, who like are shitty people and people who are branded as villains, who are some of the most wonderful people we know. and like the classification of evil just being like someone who didn't do their job. And so there's like some heroes like that are branded as evil because, you know, they, they did things that just didn't fit into the structure of, of this hero and villain's system,

not because the thing that they did was bad. And like it was more about like, and it is about like the perception of someone being a, quote, lawbreaker making them evil and having nothing to do with like the, morality behind it and the intentions of it and stuff. And just really compelled by that. Thanks. I wanted to talk about this question real quick from Lucy and kind of like work it out as I talk.

Would you consider playing slash making a character who is a romantic and or asexual? Which is something that like I have thought about specifically in regards to Fitzroy for, I mean really since as long as we have been playing. Partially because right when we started graduation, the outer worlds came out. Did you guys all play that? Yeah. There was this amazing character, Parvety, who was an asexual character who was like, it was a representation of asexuality in a game or piece of media that, like, I had never

really seen before. Like, there was an attention to detail and a care and a sweetness about it that, like, I, you know, sort of took the internet by storm. And at the time, like, I was thinking about Fitzroy and I didn't want, it's a tricky thing, right? Asexuality is a is a, is a spectrum. And the very last thing I would want to do is like paint a character who is so ambitious that like, he doesn't have time to be sexually attracted to anybody or he doesn't have,

or he has some sort of, you know, mental disorder that keeps him from, like, having that, that particular attachment to people. Like, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't want his ambition. and his sexual identity to be one and the same, because I think that that is a kind of a problematic thing. But as we've gone on, and especially Trav in the episodes where he was having the sort of flashback to his time at school, at Clyde Knight's night school,

like there is a differentness about Fitzroy that I think has always been there that is not necessarily attributable to his ambition, that I think just really came out in that episode. episode that, you know, kind of fell in line with the way that his, he has been developed throughout the whole season. So I, I, I think of him as as asexual, which is not the same thing as being, like, a, a romantic. And it's like a, it's, it is a difficult thing to kind of, uh, set in stone, because again, it is like a, a, a, uh, a, I feel like over, over time, I felt like more comfortable with that being a, a, like, sort of definitive part of his, of his personality.

Like, it is just, it is just, in everything I've thought about in this character, and I feel like I have thought about a lot of things, like his, and which is funny, because I think the very first thing I said about him is that he's a very sexy, sexual person, which looking back is that could be other people's perception of him, you know? Yeah, sure. It all starts out with rough sketches. Yeah. That's something I'm still dealing with with Magnus is in the first episode I talked about him

having some, like, what, like, sexy wood carvings or something? Sure. I think it's important for us to, like, know a lot about our characters, and we think a lot, a lot, a lot about our characters. And this is an important thing to, like, think about our characters, but it, I don't know, it is a, it's a decision that, like, I felt like was something I wanted when we started. But over time, and especially during those flashback episodes, I feel like it is just sort of, it just makes sense.

Well, it's interesting when I, well, you talk about sexuality with characters. And when I, you know, Taka was a gay character and that wasn't something that really came up for quite a while. And I think I would, I've been, like, character creation is a useful term for video games and games like we, like that, that is the parlance that we use. but the way we do it, the way like the sort of role-playing games intertwined with narrative, it really often feels more like character discovery to me. Like you discover, like you don't have a fully formed idea of who this person is because you haven't sort of lived as them. And then as you play, you, I feel like at least this is the way it is for me,

discover the character more than you sort of like sit back with a board and like write out their entire biography and who this character is and everything about them like you discover the things that feel right in much the same way where if you get to know someone in real life um the first thing that you know about them may not be their sexual orientation and their gender identity or what have you um there's there's other things that you might learn first And it's that way with characters sometimes. Like, you don't know all the ends and outs of them until you've sort of lived and inhabited them for a little bit.

And that was something to jump back again, going into creative writing. Like, I asked all three of you, like, what is your character's sexual orientation? Because I didn't want to assume any of that. And when Griffin said, like, you know, I just don't think, I don't think, like, Fitzroy really feels that. I was like, oh, okay, cool, great.

Like, that is an interesting thing to know about that character so that I didn't, like, assume anything. So it also then informed for me, like, some potential scenes I could have coming up that would be, like, an interesting interaction between some characters just to see, you know, how everybody, like, that's the thing is it's interesting. Playing these games and doing these things is, like, we've talked about it before, but there's so many levels going on, where on the one hand, we are all authors, you know, writing a story. On the other hand, we are all, like, players playing a game. And then also, we are all, like, family members, like, finding out things about each other's characters and stuff. And so it's like, discovery is such a good word for it, Justin,

because there's things that come up where you're like, oh, this just opened so many different, like, you know, interesting things about, which is one of the reasons I think. inclusivity and storytelling is, should be such a no-brainer of just like, this has created so many more pathways for exploring this character's interaction with other people and finding out things about themselves and, you know, how, all of that stuff, that makes it so much more interesting to do. Maybe we should wrap it there.

Does that feel good to everybody? Should we talk about where we are at in this story? Somebody asked about how long you think graduation will go. I don't know if that's something you want to give a check-in about or not. Oh, yeah. I mean, I think at this point, I think we're roughly, I would say like two-thirds, maybe less of the way through. Like, the thing is, at this point, I'm really trying to. So we had that, the open DMs, the DMs are open conversation with Matt Mercer and

Austin Walker and Satine Phoenix and Victoria Rogers and me and Griffin. And like, it was really, it was so eye-opening to me and really inspiring to me. And so I'm really, really trying to take a lot more like hands off, like, approach in the storytelling of just like, okay, great, I have more than enough given you guys like, all of these building blocks. And now I want to let you play with it. So it's the kind of thing where like maybe it's 10 episodes, maybe it's 20. I don't know.

I want to see how, how, what direction you guys take it in and where it goes. And I'm trying to fly by the seat of my pants a little bit more, which is absolutely terrifying. Because the thing is, is like, aside from Tas Nights, which was really just like one-off, you know, puzzle room adventures and dust, which was a very very, very, very linear story where I had worked out, like, down to the hour, like, information that came out. Like, this is like, I've never done a long-form campaign before.

So I was trying to go into it with the same kind of linear writing that I'd done before. And I think that that was kind of stifling a little bit. So now I'm trying to like, well, I don't know. Let's see how it goes. Which is terrifying. But I also think opens up possibilities of the- different directions it could go. So I don't know.

We'll see. You're really doing a good job. Seriously. You're proud of yourself. I mean, we'll see. And I'm proud of you for listening to this entire, entirely indulgent self-indulgent podcast. We're sorry again for doing it. I'm not.

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