The Agenda with Steve Paikin (Audio) - A Dual Citizen's Perspective on Canada-U.S. Relations

Episode Date: April 15, 2025

Irshad Manji, educator, author and former journalist joins host Steve Paikin in studio to discuss life as a Canadian living in the United States of America. Having witnessed a pivotal election period and an ongoing trade war between the two countries she has called home, what's it like for dual citizens like Manji?See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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It's also a story about a system that is supposed to protect patients. From TVO Podcasts, I'm Krisha Collier, and this is The Oath. Subscribe today, wherever you listen. Ever since President Donald Trump put Canada in his crosshairs, anger at the US in this country has been white hot.

What's it like to be a Canadian living in enemy territory? Let's get a better understanding of that from Irshad Manjhi, founder and CEO of Moral Courage and a dual U.S.-Canadian citizen. Great to have you back in the studio. I know I'm welcome here. I can't always say that for down south. Well, let's get into this, and let's do a little background first. You are born where?

Uganda. Came to Canada at what age? Four. Stayed here how many years? Until around 38, 37, 38. And have lived in the States for how long? For 18 years now. 18 years in the States.

Do you feel, I know you've got citizenship, but do you feel American? What I am is a Canadian without borders. And I say that quite literally. Wherever I go, when people ask me a little bit about myself, it starts with being Canadian. Now, it doesn't always end there. But I have to say, Steve, these days waking up in America

is a bit of an out-of-body experience. Meaning? Well, who'd have thunk that in the land of the free and the home of the supposedly brave, hooded, masked federal agents would be not just permitted but authorized to pick up an international student and detain her. And of course that's just one example of so much else that's going on right now. It was a far cry, that scene, from when I first came to the U.S. to teach. And I remember Barack Obama being elected and people basically thinking,

we've turned the page on the Bush years and everything that makes us ashamed to be American. We've turned the page. That didn't last that long did it? Sure didn't exactly. When people find out let's say you're at a social gathering or a conference of some kind. Oh you think I get invited that's very kind of you. Yes I do think you get invited and people find out about your Canadian background. And then the subject perhaps turns to Trump. What do people say to you?

Any tips on how to immigrate to Canada? Really? Uh-huh. Yes. And of course, that's a cliché. But I actually think that this time, many more mean it. And it would be ironic, wouldn't it, if Canada had to seal its southern border? We're going to build a wall.

Right, exactly, exactly. But all kidding aside, I really think, and maybe we can get into this later, but I actually think that there are huge opportunities here for Canada. I know that it is natural to live in a defensive crouch right now. Protect, protect, protect. I get that completely and I think when we have embarked steadily on the road to defending our sovereignty. We can open up a little bit to look at what it will take to recruit paying students from the United States whose families are just disgusted with this administration and

want their kids to be educated in a different part of the world. Well, back in the day, it was always called the brain drain, right? People leaving Canada for the States. And now you could call it the brain gain or you could call it the Trump bump. We hear that. We're getting the Trump. The reason I ask you the question is that when I talk to Americans, and I do, frequently what they say to me is, I'm so sorry. We're so sorry about what's going on.

This is not us, this is just the president. Do you get that? Do you hear that? I don't hear that very much. And you know, again, because I work with a lot of universities and K-12 schools, The Republicans whom I have occasion to interact with are younger. And I can honestly tell you that there is a cult of personality with Trump. And so they're not apologetic. What they are is overly faithful in his ability to pull rabbits out of hats. And so there is still very much a clinging to the idea that Trump knows what he's doing. And in part, but only in part, there

is some religiosity behind that. Many young Christians have said to me that the Bible, or at least their interpretation, the family's interpretation of the Bible, strongly at least their interpretation, their family's interpretation of the Bible, strongly suggests that it will be somebody you would have never imagined coming to save the Earth. And so don't look for anybody saintly. If you want to call Trump the devil incarnate, feel free.

But he may surprise you about why he's here. So there isn't a whole lot of apology with the ones I encounter. With those who are decidedly not Republican, there is more an anxiety to get the hell out. Because I've known you for a long time, I think I can say this bluntly. You self-identify as a brown queer woman, right? No. No? No, you're thinking of me from 30 years ago, see? Well, that's probably right. Okay. Oh, man.

So bring me up to date. I've grown up. Okay. A little bit. How do you, so I guess, well, the point I'm trying to get to is here. Being you, with the name Irshad Manji, in the United States these days, does that have any issues associated with it? Almost none.

Though I do have a story to tell you. When I was getting my green card, which is not for marijuana growing, it is for working legally in the United States, it's a very long process and you have to do a ton of paperwork. I got all the paperwork, the pile of it, approved by the State Department. And the very last step, which is supposed to be a formality, was to come to Trudeau Airport in Montreal and literally cross into the United States

so that your green card is activated. Well, it didn't turn out to be a formality. When was this, Sujata? This was in 2014. And the Immigration and Customs Officer, formality. When was this? This was in 2014 and the immigration and customs officer who you know sort of wag finger wagged me into his office told me to sit down and he said you're in trouble. I said why? He said because I am going to be revoking the green card that I will not be giving you in the first place.

Why? Why? He said he didn't have to answer that question. And I reminded him that I've got all the paperwork. He said he doesn't do paperwork. I said, can I call my immigration lawyer? He said, we don't do lawyers. And then I said, well, everything that you need to see if you're not going to look at the papers is here on my laptop.

And as he's looking into his computer screen, he mutters, we don't do computers. What I learned later, after I got an apology from the Customs and Immigration Services, is that he looked up my wiki profile. He saw the word Islam, which, of course, I've written a couple of books about, and decided I must be a threat to domestic tranquility. Now, Steve, this guy was not white. It's not like his family came over on the Mayflower, OK?

But the reason I found out that this is the reason for not even approving my green card is that when I finally got it approved, the officer who worked with me on that said, by the way, I see in your file that you teach Islam. I said, no, ma'am, I teach leadership. But I've written a couple of books about Islam, and she said, oh, well, it's all over your file that you teach Islam. And I said, Officer Walker, is that my?

And she bowed her head and she said, I shouldn't have said anything. Please don't ask me any questions. And there we are. And by the way, it's worth noting, 2014, who was president? That's pre-Trump. That's Obama. Yeah. Yeah. That's Obama.

Yeah. Yeah. Do you ever worry you've got a file, right? They do computers, even if they say they don't do computers. Do you ever worry about having difficulty getting back into the United States when you visit Canada? This will be when I leave tomorrow for New York. This will be the first time since the tariffs that

I'll be re-entering the United States. So I'll call you. You might be the only call that I'm allowed but you'll be the one. What is the most different thing about the United States today compared to when you moved there 18 years ago? Believe it or not, I think many Americans have become Canadian in their insecurity about their identity. You know, when I became a U.S. citizen, and as you pointed out, I'm dual. I will never give up my Canadian passport. The reason I decided to become a U.S. citizen is precisely in anticipation of this moment. I just did not want to give any fodder to the government for deporting me

after all of that rigmarole around my green card, right? When I became a citizen and I told various Americans, oh, now I'm a citizen, almost all of them, including the conservative ones, offered their condolences. When I said to my Canadian friends I'd become a US citizen, they congratulated me. Even before now, there seems to be a confidence in who Canadians are that I didn't grow up with. And definitely an insecurity about who Americans are that I didn't sense when I first lived there.

Do you think that partly explains Trump's rise in politics? I think it partly does, but only partly. I think also there is just a deep, deep distrust of everything institutional in the United States. And I think it starts with all of the lying around the Iraq war. I remember, by the way, and you'll recall at the time, I'd been touring the world with my first book, The Trouble with Islam Today. I would get from time to time really angry emails from service people, American service people,

saying, you have no idea what you're talking about. This war is a complete lie. And the more it became established, the lies behind the war, I think the more disillusioned many men in particular, but women too, but mostly men, became, then followed by the collapse of the economy around 2008, 2009, and the lying that went on by the banks.

And the fact that Obama didn't prosecute anybody. Nobody went to jail for the massive destruction of household incomes. And that is also again, part of the reason that Trump came to power. And then, you know, conspiracy theories galore around COVID. All of these major events have just meant that it's not that Americans disagree on major issues. Actually, research shows over and over again that most Americans want the same things. What they disagree about is one another. They don't trust one another and And as a result, they don't bother to engage each other in meaningful ways,

which only deepens the distrust and distracts from all the progress that could be made on the issues, including things like renewable energy, socioeconomic equality, immigration, distracts from all of those issues on which there is already a healthy consensus. So the great tragedy here is that Americans are doing this to themselves. And let it be said that we ought not to make the same mistake in this country. I'm going to ask you an odd final question. Is there anything about the Trump administration you like?

Hmm. Yes, which is this. I think it is showing how much we've taken for granted over the years. And, you know, every few generations, Steve, I think that large numbers of people need to be reminded of what is worth defending and what is worth preserving. He's done that. That's for sure. He's definitely done that.

And I think that, you know, after this disaster is over, and there will come a day when it's over, another generation will study it and we will remember it. And then a further generation will hear about it but not necessarily study it and then the generation after that should we be you know lucky enough to live that long as a species will have to experience something like this all over again. Good luck getting back to the States.

Keep that ringer on, would you? I will do so. Thank you. Irshad Mangi, author, educator, founder of Moral Courage. Thanks so much for the States. Keep that ringer on, would you? I will do so. Thank you. Irshad Mangi, author, educator, founder of Moral Courage. Thanks so much for the visit. It's my pleasure.