The Agenda with Steve Paikin (Audio) - Addressing Mental Illness in Prisons

Episode Date: May 9, 2024

People with mental illness are overrepresented in the criminal justice system, often encountering the law due to symptoms of their illness, incredible gaps in mental-health care, a lack of supportive housing, and social exclusion. Most inmates (80 per cent), in the provincial institutions are awaiting trial. And only some are diverted into our forensic mental-health system. This prevalence is compounded by the overrepresentation of Indigenous, Black, and other racialized communities. To help us understand this issue, we welcome: Yusuf Faqiri, founder of Justice for Soli and brother of the late Soleiman Faqiri; Glenda O'Hara, patient of the forensic system and chair of the Client Advisory Council at The Royal Ottawa Mental Health Care Centre; Dr. Mara Muraven, psychiatrist with Forensic Programs at Waypoint Centre for Mental Health Care; and Mick Kunze, reintegration specialist from St. Leonard's Community Services.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

From epic camping trips to scenic local hikes, spending time outdoors is a great way to create lasting memories to share with friends and family. This summer, TVO is celebrating the natural wonders that inspire unforgettable adventures with great documentaries, articles, and learning resources about beloved parks in Ontario and beyond. Visit tvo.me slash Ontario summer stories for all this and more. And be sure to tell us your stories for a chance to win great prizes. Help TVO create a better world through the power of learning. Visit TVO.org and make a tax-deductible donation today. Late last year, a coroner's inquest into the 2016 death of Soleiman Fakhiri in an Ontario jail

found that correctional facilities are the wrong environment for people experiencing mental health issues. What barriers remain for people suffering from mental illness while incarcerated? Let's find out. On the line, from Montreal, Quebec, Yosef Fakhiri, founder of Justice for Sully and brother of the late Suleyman Fakiri. In the nation's capital, Glenda O'Hara, chair of the Client Advisory Council at the Royal Ottawa Mental Health Care Center. And with us here in studio, Dr. Mara Moravin, psychiatrist with forensic programs at Waypoint Center for Mental Health Care and Mick Kunze, manager, Forensic and Supportive Housing Programs, St. Leonard's Community Services.

That's in London and region. And we are happy to have you two here in our studio in Midtown Toronto. And to our friends in Points Beyond, Yosef and Glenda, thank you for joining us tonight as well. as well. Yosef, I do want to start with you because I'd like to find out from you, at the end of the day, how meaningful the inquest into your brother's death was. It was very meaningful. It was very important. And not just for the Fekeri family, not for me alone, but for Ontarians at large and Canadians at large to see what happens into corrections. And inquests, usually the value that inquests have normally is that they give hindsight,

they give context into what happens in corrections because corrections currently operates without any meaningful accountability and transparency. It's a system that continues to be closed for most Ontarians at large. And what was very important for my family personally is that it came out very clearly, and we said this for seven years about this inquest, to be closed for most Ontarians at large. And what was very important for my family personally is that it came out very clearly,

and we said this for seven years, but this inquest, it came out very clear, that Solly shouldn't have been there. The truth came out. And the truth was very difficult, very painful for my family, but it was important for Ontarians to see what happened. And to get that homicide verdict,

there is no more doubt anymore that Solomon Fikiri was killed by guards at the Central East Correctional Centre in Ontario. So that's what I would say if I had a chance to summarize what that inquest meant, because I do believe inquests have value. The problem, though, is that governments rarely act on the recommendations of inquests. Well, we'll get to that later in our discussion, to be sure. Glenda, how about you? The usefulness of the inquiry to begin with, did it meet your satisfaction? Oh, most definitely. Yes. I mean, I've definitely been incarcerated and I live with mental health

issues. And I've, you know, witnessed firsthand the lack of services within the correctional system. And yes, I mean, lifting the veil is a good start. And we've got to think of solutions for the future, how things like this won't happen again. how things like this won't happen again. Mick, how about you? The coroner's inquest, did they get it right? I would agree. Yes? Absolutely, yes. The topic of our conversation today is that prisons are not places for individuals

with mental disorders and mental illness. And I think it's a really strong indication that we are on the right path to making some significant changes in our province. Well, we'll see about that. Dr. Marama Raven, what would you say? I would say that from what I know of the inquest, it was a thorough look into the issues at hand.

My own experience, I was an investigating coroner for five years. I myself was a presiding coroner of inquests for several years. And the ability to take a deep dive into these issues is really important. And hearing from a family member that they felt this was a good job and that it did justice to their loved one is very encouraging. to their loved one is very encouraging. Yosef, let me follow up then on that issue that you raised at the end of your first answer, which is since the conclusion of the inquest, I gather the Ontario government has missed the deadline

by which it said or by which it was urged to start enacting the first of the 57 recommendations made by the coroner's jury. Can you give us some insight as to why they have missed that deadline? Yes, governments rarely and they're most often are tone deaf to the challenges of Canadians and Ontarians suffering from mental health challenges

within corrections. The coroner's office gave the government of Ontario an opportunity to stand on the right side of history to make a public statement, a very simple public statement, that individuals suffering from mental health challenges should not be put in jails. And they missed that. And there was many other recommendations. And what I articulate from this is that you have many inquests, especially Soleimans, Ashley Smith, and many other tragic deaths, where government rarely acts in inquests.

And then the question sometimes happens, while inquests do a very important and critical job, it is not legally binding. So the government is not obligated to necessarily act on these inquests. But does it have to cost more lives for the governments not to act? And that's the question that we need to ask, because there's many Suleymans around us. My brother was one of them. And that's the question that we need to ask, because there's many Soleimans around us. My brother was one of them. But believe me, there was just another individual that just passed away last week at Toronto South, the Tensory Centre, with similar circumstances of Soleiman's tragic death.

You know, Mayor, it's a fact that governments are under no legal obligation to give voice to the recommendations that come out of coroner's inquest. But why wouldn't they in this case, if it was done so transparently and with good accountability? And, you know, here we have four people who have, you know, good experience in this system and know what's possible. Why rag the puck? So I'll start by saying I'm currently a psychiatrist at Waypoint, which is a forensic mental health care hospital, which is not a correctional facility. But I have overseen several cases as an inquest officer.

I think that stigma is a big reason that there's less pressure on governments. It is difficult for people with mental illness to advocate for themselves. It is especially difficult for people with mental illness within the forensic system to advocate for themselves. It is a population that is not, I think, high up on the empathy list of most citizens. And so there's less pressure on governments to, and other agencies, important agencies, to act on the recommendations. What do we do about that, Mick? That's a very, very good question, Steve.

Thank you for asking that. I think despite the lack of action from governments, for example, there has been a community response, and that community response has been from social service agencies, from folks with lived experience, and I think this response has put additional pressure, for example, on the Ministry of Health to fund additional initiatives that support individuals with mental illnesses,

be that within the forensic mental health care system or within the community or even within correctional system. So I think as a civil society, we have made some strides in the right direction as a result of this inquiry. Glenda, what do you think the big message emerging from this inquiry is that the government needs to get its head around? Oh, you know, I think the most important message, I think, is just to lead with humanity. I think is just to lead with humanity. You know, I've heard that Yosef's brother had a guard that was very good with him and he wasn't there that day. But every guard should have been good with him.

I think that correctional service employees need to have some education in de-escalation and getting to know each other and calm down methods and using soft words. I'm a big fan of the SafeWords method of doing things that is in all our forensic mental health institutions in Ontario. And I think that that would be a good thing to introduce into the correctional system as well. Just help us understand what that is. The SafeWord method, what does that mean, Glenda? Well, it's just a method that was developed in the United Kingdom. And it's been kind of mandated in Ontario that all the forensic hospitals implement it. I belong on the SafeWords community of practice. And, you know, the hospitals have a hard time keeping it going in a good way. For the life of me, I can't understand it because it's such a

make sense method um and you know it really it really just um centers around humanity and treating these people uh like like person the persons that they are. And yeah, the double stigma of being a forensic client is real. And it becomes something that you internalize and you use self-stigma and you don't want people to know not only that you live with a mental illness, but also that you've touched the criminal justice system because you know what people are going to think about you. You've prompted a follow-up in my head for Mick on this, the forensic mental health care system. What is that and how does it work? That's a very, very good question and a very complex question. So effectively, I think what

we're talking about today is that the forensic mental health care system involves individuals who have deemed not criminally responsible. So they have committed what we call an index offense, which they, for reasons of mental disorder, could not appreciate. So they are under the purview of the Ontario Review Board, following the not criminally responsible verdict, and they are placed in the forensic mental health care system, which is a system that is vastly different or vastly differs from the correctional system or the criminal justice system in general because they are within forensic mental health care hospitals, such as Waypoint or the Southwest Centre for Forensic Mental Health Care in St. Thomas.

Can you pick up on that? How is that part of the health care system different from just, say, the regular, if that's the right way to put it, mental health care system? So, as Mick mentioned, these hospitals, such as the one that I work at, are based on a medical model of any hospital. So care is provided within the medical model for people who have been either found not criminally responsible for their offence, people who are unfit, been found unfit to stand trial, will be directed by the Ontario Review Board to attend one of these hospitals. The hospital I work at is the highest secure facility in the province.

What does that mean? It's for the most ill and most unwell and dangerous. What does that look like on the ground, being the most secure? It is, I would say the patients are just the most sick and at risk of perpetrating violence on other people or on themselves. So that's where people might start their journey, depending on where they are in terms of their own illness. Forgive my ignorance here.

Are we talking, therefore, there are walls around the hospital? Or they are, how does it work? So I would say there are extraordinary programs. The forensic programs at Waypoint are really quite extraordinary. I've had many jobs as a physician, worn many hats, and Waypoint does an outstanding job of caring for its population, maintaining safety, the training of the staff, and the entire governance structure is designed to help people maintain safety in a humane manner.

So I've seen it done right. Let me pick up on that with Yosef, and that is, we've already heard, I was going to say testimony, we don't really have testimony on this program. We've heard statements on this program about the fact that who's there, which guards are there, on what what days can matter a lot? And in the case of your brother, it mattered that someone who was kind to him was not there on the day that he died. In which case, where do you want to put better and proper training on your list of recommendations for improving the circumstances we're talking about here tonight? Well, Steve, I think those recommendations are very comprehensive and fulsome,

but I would like to just pick on a couple. One, individuals suffering from mental health challenges should be in places where individuals such as Dr. Merhaven and places where Mick is working, where they need to be in areas where individuals have the appropriate tools, appropriate tools, appropriate capacities to take care of these vulnerable Canadians. You know, I would like to pick up on something here. The deputy superintendent of segregation at Central East did not have any training in mental health. Let's just put that into context.

Yet most people that are in segregation are usually suffering from one form of mental health challenges. So Canadians suffering from mental health challenges should not even be in jails to begin with. They should be in areas where you have individuals such as Dr. Merhaven and Mick and Glenda. They're caring for them. But in the end, they're giving to their loved ones. And I'm sorry to use this term, and body bags. Soli was one of those. And I would like to also highlight in Central East,

they had one psychiatrist at the time when Sully was in that area and he was on vacation that week. So my brother paid the price because they don't have appropriate practitioners. He didn't see a psychiatrist in that whole 11 days when he was Central East. There's so many tragedies in Sully's story, but the reason I want his story not to be forgotten

is because there's other people like Sully around us right now, and their stories need to be heard and need to be taken care of. They shouldn't be given to their loved ones in body bags because it's really, really tragic and difficult. Their lives have the same value as all of us. Their lives should not be viewed as cheap. Yosef, when do you stop, as the person at the center of this drama, when do you stop asking yourself, if only the proper jail guard had been there that day, if only the psychiatrist had been there that day, if only, if only, if only? When do you stop asking that question? I haven't stopped. I think about that quite often. I think about my late brother, when my mom and dad, we tried to see him four times.

If you could have seen him in that one time when we drove to Lindsay and they didn't allow us to see him. But what keeps me going every day is that I want to use Solomon's story to give other individuals a voice because Sully's tragedy is not unique. It's a tragedy among many people that suffer every day. But what I do believe what's important is that we have to get this right. We have to get this right. Corrections need to be transformed. There has to be accountability. And the guards are not in any position to take care of individuals suffering from mental health challenges. There are no position at all. We need practitioners that are in these places. And at the same time, corrections has to understand that they have to work with the justice sector and the healthcare

sector. This came out in the inquest that they operate in silos. I'd like to add, Steve, that one of the reasons that Solly wasn't sent to the local Peterborough hospital was that the local jail had a very contentious relationship with the hospital, and that they would send individuals with mental health challenges back to the jail so the the GP the general physician at that time didn't send Sully my brother had to pay the price for these relationships or lack thereof but what I'm what's very important for us is that we need to amplify these voices because these are individuals they need to be heard they need to be taken care of and what's happening to them is that they're falling through the cracks.

And often they're paying the price with their lives because of a lack of policy issue and a lack of an action by our local systems. And this is what makes these stories so tragic. Well, I noticed that Glenda has been nodding quite forcefully during the course of your answer there because well look at glenn you've been inside this system you know what it's all about tell us about your experience with it well i mean it started out uh i entered the prison system after a suicide attempt so i was put in solitary for just a day, just a day. And that was enough to frame my mind that this treatment is not the way you treat someone that lives with a mental health illness. Any of your symptoms like depression or anxiety or mania or delusions are going to be amplified in that kind of situation. It's not a good thing. And when I entered, the women's population had

lost their psychiatrist. So they had to borrow the psychiatrist from the men's population in order to meet with me to make sure I was safe to get out. But I certainly have friends that entered, I've made many friends, forensic friends, and, you know, they were kept for days in seclusion. And their mental health just really worsened worsened uh with that so uh you know um any of i was in three different jails and uh you know we were maybe able to have three one half hour meetings with the psychologist and then that was it that was it and the lines for meds were long. There were lots of people suffering. And the services just weren't there for people that live with mental illness and are incarcerated. amplify on your experience there. Sheldon, let's do stat board number one here, and I'll read this for those listening on podcast. Estimates show that rates of mental illnesses are four to seven

times more common in prison than in the community, with around two to five percent of men incarcerated in Canadian prisons being labeled with a psychotic disorder such as schizophrenia. And those who are labeled with schizophrenia are more likely to be on antipsychotics that they may not have access to inside prisons, which of course increases risk of cardiovascular events. And I guess, Mara, I want to ask, we're in 2024 here. Why are we not better at this already? So I would like to echo the comments that have been made by the other people on this panel about the importance of having more physicians available, particularly mental health physicians, within the correction system. And at the same time, finding a way to embed and entwine physicians into the decisions

that are made when people are in crisis, such as the crisis that was being experienced by Mr. Fakiri before his death, and that ultimately people making decisions about transfer to hospital, there should be a way to support the governance structure so that physicians are involved in that decision-making. And we need to build in redundancy so that when a psychiatrist goes on vacation that's working in corrections, that the other three psychiatrists they've decided to hire can help.

Right now, in many cases, this is quite common. There are limited psychiatric services. So finding ways to recruit and retain psychiatrists to work with the prison population in the corrections is, I think, a very reasonable place to start. Mick, these all seem like very, you used the word reasonable, reasonable, common sense, there's that word again, things to do. It's 2024. What's the holdup? Well, it's complicated and complex, I believe. No easy answer for that.

But I think, and this has come out of this panel already, I think we're too much talking about silos. We talk about silos even within the healthcare system, but in particular, when it comes to care for people. And we need to create more spaces of care, notions of integrated care, where supports across the community are established for individuals suffering from mental illnesses, for example. Similarly to what we do with folks suffering from physical health issues, right?

We have integrated care systems there. We need to share our expertise. We need to move away from silos and be able to build those relationships. And relationships not just with our clinical partners, with our corrections partners, but also that relationship building has to go down to our patients, our clients, our participants, whatever we may call them. We're all human beings. We need relationships in our lives. And building relationships, that's what it all comes down to, to me. Mara, I presume that if the government of Ontario decided today

that it no longer would put people with problematic mental health issues in prison, there wouldn't be enough other places in which to treat and put those people. Is that fair to say? I believe that is fair to say. So what do we do? We bring the health care model to the corrections, and we transform the corrections system, where we know there are huge volumes of people in need of services,

and we transform that system. Because you are right, it is only a small fraction of the people in the corrections system end up at places like Waypoint or the other nine forensic hospitals in the correction system end up at places like Waypoint or the other nine forensic hospitals in the province. And so we need to transform the correction system, as was so clearly stated by Mr. Fakhiri. Yosef, do you think that's doable? Absolutely. Government needs to be, government needs to be, not only do they need to be informed, but there needs to be a political will.

There needs to be a courage. But I don't believe that it takes much courage here to have empathy and take care of people that are vulnerable. Because I think we're at a crossroads at the moment right now. These issues are not going to improve. They're going to get much worse. And you're going to have many silly man around us, I think. But at the same time, government needs to understand

that these individuals that are suffering from mental health challenges can be anybody. And they need to understand that if we don't solve this, we're going to have more issues and we're going to have more tragedies. And we cannot hide and cloak behind the idea that this is too difficult or it's going to take too long. There needs to be a start, as Dr. Murray even said, and start articulating it. But there needs to be, at the same time, we'll argue, within correction, there needs to be a cultural shift.

What's very important, Steve, is that corrections to this day, rarely you will find in many commissions upon commissions, reports upon reports, rarely giving data back to external investigators. Mr. Sapers, Howard Sapers, you'll notice, has done a lot of important work and also at the federal level. But corrections seems to operate away from scrutiny. And what we need to have is that correction needs to be open to this transformational shift. So what Dr. Murray even saying, I'm 100% with this, but corrections also needs to be a willing partner within this conversation. And right now, I'm not sure they are.

I wish they were, but I'm not sure. Because to this day, I would like to highlight the guards that are responsible for the beating death of Soleimani Fekiri, most of them are still employees of the Ontario government. And we need to ask that question to our own self. Why does that continue? Glenda, this does require, presumably, the Minister for Mental Health and Addictions to be in conversation with the Minister of Health, to be in conversation with the Minister of Correctional Services, to be in conversation with, you get the picture here. This is, Mick referred

a moment ago to the fact that it's, yes, it's all siloed. Governments are, as strange as it sounds, these different silos are not really good at talking to each other. So how do you how do you break down the walls and get these folks on the same page? Oh, gosh, I don't know. I mean, if they if they don't look at stories like this and and see the absolute urgency of of change, absolute urgency of of change i i don't know like um you know humanity and stigma has to be reduced um you know uh for for these people that are not thriving in the correctional system and some of them are dying uh so i i don't know i don't know how that wake-up call can be ignored. Mara, I've got a stat here I want to share with you. This is according to CTV News.

Out of the average 9,000 people in custody in Ontario on any given day last year, 82% were in pretrial detention. They're waiting around, essentially, to have their cases dealt with. Yes. I mean, that feels like a very large number. Why so many? Again, I don't represent corrections. And I believe that has to do with the process of how long it takes to move people through the judicial system. And I think that might be, in a way, separate from the rest of the conversation, because speeding up the judicial process wouldn't necessarily address the absence of services

for people with mental health issues within the corrections service. It does mean that 82% of people are not eligible for transfers to the forensic mental health hospital. There's one in the province, and only people who've been sentenced can go there. So it's yet another roadblock. Can you tell us, Mick, just more about what you do at St. Leonard's, how you take somebody from the beginning of their experience with you all the way to the end?

How does it work? Absolutely. So one of the programs I manage at St. Leonard's is a transitional rehabilitation housing program for individuals involved in the forensic mental health care system. So effectively, when they are on their journey through the forensic system, through the Forensic Mental Health Care Hospital,

our partner Southwest Center for Forensic Mental Health Care in St. Thomas, Ontario, there comes a stage where this very artificial environment in a hospital is not enough for rehabilitation anymore. So they will be transitioned into the community, into our residence, where more rehabilitative work will be completed and done, and they will have access to the community, really to, in certain ways, test out how well they access to the community really to in certain ways test out

how well they fare within the community where they are at their rehabilitation journey and what the next steps may be for them to move into independent housing and that they don't mind this next chippy question but how often do you get it right and how often does it not work we get it right most of the time because we have such a great relationship with our hospital partner. We get referrals for individuals who are ready to transition into the community. And also, if something were to go wrong, we know we have a good partner to respond to crises with us together. And again, we've broken down these silos of working just alongside, and we really cross roads with our hospital partner, as well as other partners at all stages of the journey. And it's a journey that is person-centered. So we're not focused on some

lofty goals, some goals that were set out by either the hospital or by us, or even by the Ontario Review Board, but we really aspire to the goals set out by our residents themselves. And that's what gives strength. That's also what gives dignity. And that's what really gives that buy-in into recovery and a recovery journey it is in the end. And I would just like to highlight

that people who make it into the forensic mental health system and move through this medical model that is person-centered have much better outcomes. I believe the rate of recidivism is about, I believe it's about 6% for these people, whereas for people going through the correctional system, it's up in the high 30s, about 37%, 38%. So there's every incentive to get them into this system. Yes. And get it right.

And if not get them into this system, transform the current system in a way to resemble this person-centered, patient-centered medical model of care. Yosef, I know that as a result of your brother's death, you've created this organization called Justice for Sully, and you are blasting the trumpets to make sure that we all hear your message, which is a good thing. So talk to us about next steps. What do you think needs to happen immediately, say over the next six months? We need to create an external oversight into corrections that oversees corrections.

This is one of the recommendations. We need to make sure that corrections is seen because at the current moment, provincial corrections, when tragedies such as this happen, they have their own internal investigation. We need to see an external oversight into corrections that reports directly into Parliament.

So we'll be pushing for that. One of the other recommendations that came out of the inquest is the Office of the Prisoner Advocate, where individuals that are in these systems right now, they can go into the Prisoner Advocate and articulate what's happening. Because right now, when somebody usually complains within correction, it goes to the Office of the

Ombudsman. But the difficulty is that when it goes to the Office of the ombudsman. But the difficulty is that when it goes to the office of the ombudsman, there's no legislative, sometimes legislative teeth to enforce them. So that's the work. And for me, I'm going to continue to share Suleiman's tragic story because I want people like Glenda and Dr. Merhaven and Mix's work to be appreciated and for it to be championed because my late brother deserved better.

My late brother wasn't just someone who suffered from schizophrenia. He was trilingual. He was my mom's best friend. He was a monumental figure for the Fakiri family. And I don't want his story to be going in vain. But I also know that other families don't have, in my opinion, the privileges or the opportunities to fight the way that my family has. OK, and it's very hard for a lot of families. And I want to make sure that we use any value that we have

or any voice that we have, such as conversations such as this, to give individuals suffering from mental health challenges a voice, Stephen. And that's what I will continue to do as long as I'm breathing in this earth, sir. I have no doubt about it. Do you have, or have you had to date, any direct conversations with any cabinet ministers who have carriage of this issue? To this day, not one member of the Ontario government or neither of the solicitor generals have ever responded directly to Solomon Fikiri's name. They have not spoken to my family. Just as last year, us and the Canadian Civil Liberties Association in tracking injustice, we wrote a letter to the minister where we had 30,000 signatures calling for external oversight. The minister didn't even give us a response, Steve. So nobody has still mentioned Salman's name.

It's as if he didn't exist. They always refer to him as an inmate, which in itself is tragic to begin with. You know, that just doesn't feel right. I mean, I can remember when Brian Mulroney spoke to David Milgaard's mother directly. And that story turned out well. David Milgaard, who was in jail for a crime he did not commit, got out. It seems, I don't know, Yosef, you tell me. What do you think about the fact that nobody from the government of Ontario has had direct contact with you yet?

I think it says to the fact that they're tone deaf to Canadian sufferer mental health challenges. And I think, frankly, Steve, you know, multiple investigations have happened. It's a case that remains very high profile, but the government seems to think that, OK, the family is going to go away. They're going to just ignore this case because they've ignored other cases. But I'm not going to let that happen. Right. The fact that the minister doesn't respond to my brother's death, that they're responsible, that their staff is responsible both systemically and physically.

Let's talk about this, Steve. He had 50 bruises on his body. Both his legs and his hands were tied. He was pepper sprayed twice. He was put on his stomach. Now, all of these are factual stats that came out of the coroner's inquest, but the government hasn't even given my family a public apology, which in itself says that Solomon's life was viewed as cheap and the government is under the impression that the

story is going to go away. I'm not going to let that happen. Glenda, I wonder if you could add to that. What would you like to see happen right away? Oh, you know, I just I just think that humanity has to enter this system and the stigma has to be reduced. I've been party to a meeting where a psychiatrist was talking about the idea of assessing people that are in corrections. And he said, you can't do it because you can't believe them. I mean, and that's a person in our health system. We just have to see these people as human beings, these people that suffer with mental illness, and also the people in the system that suffer with substance use disorder. They're very stigmatized in jail. And I mean, I've been

witness to the mocking and, you know, the lack of humanity. You know, maybe the guard that was kind could teach all the rest of them how to do it. And people would listen. That feels like a very good place to leave this. I want to thank the four of you for coming on to TVO tonight and really helping us understand this very difficult story so much better. Yosef Fakiri, Glenda O'Hara, Dr. Mara Mraven, Mick Kunze, great to have you all here at TVO tonight. Thank you.

Thank you very much. Great to have you all here at TVO tonight. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. The Agenda with Steve Paikin is made possible through generous philanthropic contributions from viewers like you. Thank you for supporting TVO's journalism.