The Agenda with Steve Paikin (Audio) - Aga Khan IV's Legacy in Canada and Beyond

Episode Date: February 11, 2025

The death of Prince Karim Al-Hussaini, or Aga Khan IV as he was better known, has led to an outpouring of tributes. The spiritual leader of Ismaili Muslims, more than 80,000 of whom reside in Canada, was known for his philanthropic efforts around the globe. Here to reflect on his legacy: Arif Lalani, former Canadian diplomat who also led the diplomatic department of His Highness the Aga Khan.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

I'm Matt Nethersole. And I'm Tiff Lam. From TVO Podcasts, this is Queries. This season, we're asking, when it comes to defending your beliefs, how far is too far? We follow one story from the boardroom to the courtroom. And seek to understand what happens when beliefs collide. Where does freedom of religion end and freedom from discrimination begin? That's this season on Queries in Good Faith,

a TVO original podcast. Follow and listen wherever you get your podcasts. The death of Prince Karim al-Husseini or Aga Khan IV as he was better known has led to an outpouring of tributes. The spiritual leader of Ismaili Muslims, more than 80,000 of whom reside in Canada, was known for his philanthropic efforts

around the globe. Here to reflect on his legacy, Arif Lalani, former Canadian diplomat who also led the diplomatic department of His Highness the Aga Khan. It's great to have you back here. Thanks very much. Although as they say on better occasions. Well, it's an honor to do this though. Well, he had such a stellar life.

I'm glad we could get you to come in and talk a bit about it. And I just for those who don't know enough about him, let's put this on the record, shall we? Bring this fact file up if you would please so we can talk about Prince Karim al-Husseini, who was born December 13th, 1936 in Geneva, Switzerland. In 1957 at the age of 20, he became the 49th hereditary imam or spiritual leader of Shia Ismaili Muslims, a position he held for almost seven decades. The title Aga Khan is derived from Turkish and Persian words to mean commanding chief.

Ismailis believe that the Aga Khan is directly descended from an unbroken line of imams going back to the Prophet Muhammad. In 1972, Canada became an important focus for this community when Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau welcomed more than 6,000 Ismaili refugees from Uganda who had been expelled by the dictator Idi Amin. Today, out of the 15 million Ismaili worldwide, more than 80,000 call Canada home. And in terms of honours, in 2005 the Aga Khan was made an honorary companion of the Order of Canada and in 2010 he received honorary Canadian citizenship, which is something that

the number of people I think you can count on the fingers of one hand have received over the years. Help us understand, put it into perspective, the Aga Khan's death and what it means to the community. Well, it's obviously a huge loss for the community. But at the same time, you know, there's continuity. The Ismailis believe that there's always a living spiritual guide. So the chain is unbroken for them. His son Rahim Aga Khan was named

right away as his successor. So there is mourning but there's also rejuvenation and a time of fresh hope with a new you know young leader who I think will give fresh hope not just to his community but I think beyond. I'm going to come back to him later but if I can use a comparison that I think more of our viewers would understand. Is this like the death of Queen Elizabeth II? Well it's funny you mention that.

I think there are no two other figures in history that share so much in common in terms of the personal situation. You know, I think they were leaders globally at around the same time. So it's similar, but it's not. I think His Highness the Aga Khan was a singular figure across two centuries because I think no one leader has a mandate for the spiritual well-being of people and also for their social and economic development, you know, think about it. He was there with President Kennedy right through to President Trump. He was there at the you know at the end of the Commonwealth as we knew it then, the time of independence.

He was there for the height of the Cold War. He was there for the dismantling of the Soviet Union. He was there for the information age. All of that was one leader. He was also there for you. Sheldon, bring up this picture in the middle of page two, if you would, because you took a leave of absence from your government work to work for him in 2016. And there it is. What a shot. That's a pretty stellar cast right there. Okay, what did you do for him? Well, he gave me the privilege of

serving as the head of his Department of Diplomatic Affairs, which essentially meant supporting him in facilitating global relations around the world. So the Ismaili Imamat, which is his office, had relations at the level of treaties and international agreements with about 13 countries, Canada chief amongst them. And he asked me to come and help kind of take that department to a different level for a few years. Let's get more personal. Do you recall having a private moment with him where he said something to you that stayed with you? Look, there were many private moments. I think I need to keep those private. But what I will tell you is, you know, you'll see it in all the pictures. He has this smile, you see it.

His Highness the Aga Khan IV always had this smile, which made you very comfortable. And I think he partly did it because he realized, you know, the weight of his presence in any room. You know, I traveled with him. We went to about 11 countries in 12 months for his diamond jubilee global trips, where he was received by heads of state everywhere.

And even they could feel that they were in the presence of something extraordinary. And I think he found that if he smiled right at the beginning, it was comforting. I'll also tell you, you know, he had a spiritual side, but he was also essentially a CEO of one of the largest development organizations in the world. And he was a tough CEO.

For example? He was tough on the budget. He was very tough on outcomes. I remember he said to me once, I had done a memo for him, and he sort of very politely sort of pushed it back and said, well, you know, there's nothing executive here. And there's nothing for me to take a decision on. He was very outcome oriented. You know, we didn't spend a lot of time on policy papers.

We spent a lot of time on what's the outcome, how do we help people, how do we find solutions. Did he ever take you to the woodshed? Yeah, certainly. How would he do that? He was always polite, but it was always clear, you know. It was always clear. Well, he was also, I guess, one of the rare international leaders who got on quite well with many of our prime ministers, regardless of party stripe. And let's show some pictures. There he is in 1972 with Pierre Elliott Trudeau.

That's our current prime minister's father on the right. And he was a pallbearer at his funeral as well. There he is in 1985 with Brian Mulrooney. So Mr. Mulrooney is prime minister at this point for only a year or so. And then in 2014 there he is with Stephen Harper and the smile is omnipresent in all of those pictures. Talk about if you would the bond that he clearly felt he had with Canada. There's a very special relationship with Canada. You know I'm here because of that bond. I was in Uganda in 1972 and our family left with nothing. And we came to Canada and you know, His Highness gave advice to his community. And the first thing he said to us and repeated and it was very simple, make Canada your home. That was the

phrase. Every Smiley family understood we were to make Canada our home. That was the phrase. Every Ismaili family understood we were to make Canada our home. We were to be citizens. And we were to be contributing citizens. And I think the community's done that fairly well. And Canada provided an environment for somebody like me to come with nothing and then represent my country. So and that relationship was across all prime ministers, you know, it was Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau for sure.

But as you pointed out was Prime Minister Mulroney who opened one of the first Ismaili centers in the world here in Canada. Well, and if you want to talk legacy, you can go 15 minutes east of the studio and see the Aga Khan Museum, which is one of the truly I mean great marvels of architecture and beauty in this whole country. What would what did that place mean to him? You know that was a very personal passion for him. He believed very strongly That people misunderstood Islam and that when you said Islam there were certain images that came up and he wanted to change what those images might be to show that Islam is like the other religions a place of beauty. Let's take a look. Sheldon bring it up if you would. Yeah oh my gosh look at that

beautiful picture reflecting pool architecturally quite marvelous and how many times have you been in that building? Oh, many times. I was there for the opening with His Highness and Prime Minister Harper at the time. And you know, there's a park attached to that museum as well. And he had a vision of having parks around the world. And so there's Alizar Park in Cairo.

There are parks that he has donated in India. There's there's Alizar Park in Cairo. There are parks that he has donated in India. There's a park he's donated in Alberta. And together, I think they welcome about 5 million visitors a year. You talked about the fact that the succession is in place. And I think we need to understand better about how that works.

OK. Rahim al-Husseini is going to take over for him. Was there any question that he would be the one to take over? Well, you know, it's a divine mandate. So it transfers from one imam to the next. And certainly the imam who designates knows. And nobody else knows until it's done. So I think there's not a lot of speculation.

There's just trust this happens. I mean, is it automatically the first born who takes over? Not necessarily. Generally, it has been. But it's been continued for 1,400 years. There he is. There's a shot of the news. So his title will be?

So he is His Highness Prince Rahim Aga Khan V. And he is the eldest son of his father. And I think he will be every bit as singular in his time as his father was. I guess he's had some on-the-job training over the last many years, knowing this day was inevitably going to come. I guess he's had some on-the-job training over the last many years knowing this day was inevitably going to come. Well, he certainly has. I don't know if this day was going to come.

But I think he has always understood the obligation and duty that the family has. So all the members of the family are involved in one way or another in the works of the Aga Khan development network, and he certainly has been at the forefront of looking at eradicating poverty, environment and climate change, and also economic development. Does it have to be a male who succeeds the Aga Khan? Well, when his Highness the Aga Khan IV was asked to this,

he had said it would be a male. So I can't say more than that. And what expectations do you have for the new Aga Khan V? Well I think the expectations on him generally are large. He imagined he has to be the spiritual father to 15 million people. So he's responsible for their spiritual well-being, but he's also responsible for their worldly, economic, and social well-being.

So I think the expectations are large, for sure. The burden is heavy. Burden is heavy, but does he intend, you know, there's usually two ways to do these things, continuity or shake it up. Which do you see? I think every imam has built on the foundations of the previous one. And I think what his father was known for was to meet the challenges of a changing world. And I think Prince Rahim

Aga Khan certainly is now leading at a time of a changing world. So I think he will have to help not just the community, but the communities in which the Ismailis live, so the countries in which the Ismailis live. I think he will help them navigate these times. Where will he live? I think that's entirely up to him. The imamate, the divan, the headquarters of the imamate

are now based in Lisbon, Portugal. But he doesn't necessarily have to live there if he doesn't want to. Well, my experience with the previous Aga Khan was that he was hardly in one place very long. He was everywhere around the world traveling. So I suspect this will be the same. Gotcha.

That's Arif Lalani, former Canadian diplomat with the Munk School of Global Affairs and Public Policy and also a guy who had a front row seat to much of what Aga Khan IV did. Arif, good to see you again. Thanks so much for coming in. My pleasure.