The Agenda with Steve Paikin (Audio) - Can Better Data Improve Policing in Ontario?

Episode Date: June 14, 2025

As part of the Community Safety and Policing Act, Ontario appointed Ryan Teschner as the first Inspector General of Policing. A year into his role, he has released the organization's first spotlight report highlighting the complexities of policing protests and major events across the province. The Agenda invites Teschner to discuss how he will help create a safer Ontario.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In 2023, the Ontario government appointed Ryan Teshner to lead the province's Inspectorate of Policing. Tasked with keeping the policing sector accountable, the oversight body has released their first report highlighting the complexities of policing protests and other major events across the province. Joining us now to discuss their findings is Ryan Teshner, Ontario's first Inspector General of Policing. Welcome sir. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. Alright, break it down for us. First off, what is the role of the Inspector General of Policing? The Inspector General of Policing is a first-of-its-kind role anywhere across the country. It provides policing oversight to what I call both sides of the house.

The policies and governance of policing that is conducted by police service boards and the actual policing on the ground, the operations conducted by police services. We do so independently by conducting inspections or investigations. We do that proactively and also in response to public complaints and everything that we do is animated by data and analytics so that we can be at the right place at the right time all in the interests of Ontarians. All right, you've been in this position a little over a year, and you've been quite busy traveling across this province. What's been the main focus over the last 12 months?

Well, first, I thought it was important to introduce myself, my role, to the sector, to the policing sector. And so I made a commitment to travel to all 44 police services that we have in Ontario and their boards. We're just a few away from being done, but in each and every one of those I've travelled to the local community where that policing is delivered, whether that's in Cornwall or Thunder Bay, Toronto, Peel or Hamilton.

I've met with chiefs and their command officers and board members to talk about what we are going to do at the Inspectorate to help improve policing across Ontario and make everyone safer. I've also been talking to them about how we'll approach our work based on risk so that we're in the right place at the right time. And I've asked them about the challenges that they're experiencing locally in the delivery of police services, as well as some of the highlights of what they're doing. Every conversation has been informative, and I've appreciated the sector's welcome. Of the 44, how many have you visited so far? We have only three left to do.

Who are the three? I'm going to be going to West Gray, as well as a couple of other services that I haven't yet had the opportunity to visit. But, you know, this has been a year-long effort, a great team that's been supporting me, and like I said, a real welcoming from the sector, which is unusual for a new oversight body. Alright, I want to talk a little bit about your resume. You've worked as a lawyer in community safety, police governance, and public administration. You also were the lead counsel in the G20 review committee. In other words, some may say that you don't have experience

as a police officer. You never laced those boots. Do you think that makes a difference in the role that you have in terms of sort of bridging that gap there? I'd like to think of it as a strength. Good oversight is about independence and independence of thought. Fortunately for me at the Inspectorate of Policing,

I have a great team around me, including some individuals who come directly from policing at all ranks and levels, including the Deputy Inspector General, who came as a retired Deputy Chief of Police. So we've got a lot of policing experience in the organization. We also have a lot of data analytics experience in the organization.

And what I try to do is bring my legal lens, bring my understanding of the policing system, including its governance and my experience from the various roles that I've had to bring a fresh perspective and independent oversight. I'm hoping you can help explain a little bit about sort from the various roles that I've had to bring a fresh perspective and independent oversight. I'm hoping you can help explain a little bit about sort of the role of the IOP.

And yes, you're working with police on one side, making sure you understand what their needs are, what their stresses are, how they can be better efficient at their work, but also feel safe. But on the community side, you also are dealing with complaints. You are also investigating, making sure you can bridge that gap. Tell me what that side of it looks like. Many people may not know, you know, as you mentioned, you're

making that connection with the police services, but what's the work on the other side? Well, as I said, we are both proactive and reactive in applying our mandate. Proactive in the sense that I can decide to inspect against a certain issue, public order, policing being the most recent one, and reactive and responsive in the sense that we also receive public complaints. To date, we've received over 900 of them. And the complaints can be broken down

into really two categories. Our jurisdiction at the inspectorate relates to how police services are delivered and whether those police services are being delivered in compliance with Ontario's laws and then the second bucket is the conduct of police board members Who all must follow a code of conduct that's been legislated by the Ontario government and we're responsible for ensuring That we probe those complaints independently and make our findings. Alright, let's talk about your report.

Last month you released your first report highlighting the complexity and demand of policing major public events in Ontario. Here are a few of your 12 recommendations to strengthen the province's public order policing system. Formalize the Ontario Public Order Hub. Create a uniform approach to risk assessment, define reasonable response times, strengthen emergency partnerships,

and enhance public order unit officer training. Alright, break down some of those for me. Why are these recommendations crucial to maintaining public safety? So first, I think it's important for everybody to know my fundamental conclusion, which is the state of public order policing in Ontario is strong. We also though recognize that with increasing demand and complexity of mass events and protests, the system is under some strain.

And so these 12 recommendations really are a roadmap to improve the system, make sure that it is sustainable in the long term, and ultimately ensure that Ontario continues to lead in this country when it comes to this particular policing function. And so we saw over the course of the four years of data we examined, almost a 200% increase in the deployments of public order units across this province. And viewers will know some of these very well from images during the convoy, as well as more recent images in streets right across this province from Israel and Hamas War, for example.

Those come with a cost. They come with a financial cost to police services that have to pay the salaries of those officers who are doing this important work. They come with a cost to the officers themselves who are experiencing fatigue and strain, because they're doing another job on top of this public order unit work.

And they can sometimes come with a cost to society, in terms of making sure that we have the right people in the right places at the right time, providing respectful policing, but ultimately in the interests of making sure that we're facilitating people's right to express themselves, while also making sure that other people can go about their day-to-day business. So it's a tough balance, and we wanted

to put forward a report that helps strike that balance in the long term. I want to pick up on that balance, because the Community Safety and Policing Act replaced the Policing Services Act. And obviously, one of the things you look at from that name is there's obviously more, there's an emphasis more on the community safety concerns.

One of the things that you mentioned, given the ongoing conflict between Israel and Hamas and its impact on local communities, how do you find the balance? You know, the concerns of residents who may feel vulnerable or affected by global events while ensuring public safety. You know, this is something that is not easy. You talk about sort of, you know, officers being thrown into situations that, you know,

they may not be prepared for. But how do you balance those two things? Well, let me first start off by saying that what's true of politics is also true of policing. All policing is local. But local policing is animated by global events. And we see this in communities right across this province. And so it's important that in delivering policing functions, police are as effective as they can be.

They've got the right people, trained the right way, with the right tools to be deployed. And they're also building in community sentiment and understanding and awareness into the way that they're policing. And so some of my recommendations are aimed at ensuring that the public order policing system can continue to do that.

Whether you look at the hub model, which is a great way to coordinate the deployment of public order units across this province to make sure that we've got the right teams in the right places. Whether you look at what I'm considering a need for a unified risk assessment model so that all police services are assessing public order risk the same way and making deployment decisions in a consistent way no matter where in the province they are or whether it's the training for officers, that in addition to the fundamental basic training, they also are given increased training for cultural awareness and

sensitivity. So when they're deployed in a particular situation, they have the backstop, they have the context around it, to understand what is animating these protests and how to approach the policing of those protests in a way that is ultimately going to keep everybody safer. Alright, I want to go back to your journey across the province. Of the forces that you visited, are there any shared problems or even shared successes? There's both. There's both. There's both. In terms of shared challenges, I've

heard a lot about the impact on officers of the current context of policing, in terms of fatigue, but also in terms of injury and officers having to take time off work. Obviously, every officer that needs to be off work means one officer less in that community. And so it's important to support officers through their journey and through their career.

And if they encounter an injury and need to be off work, support them ultimately, hopefully, to return in a way that is most effective. And so we have seen great examples in large services like Toronto and Peel. We've seen it in smaller services like St. Thomas and others where they have worked with officers who are off, brought them back into meaningful functions that they are able to do

even with their injury and over time return to full-time duty. So that's a shared challenge but also a shared confronting of that challenge in a way I think that has made a great difference. Of course, we've also heard about the constellation of social issues that manifest in the work of police officers day to day, whether that's addiction issues, homelessness issues, or others. And so right across this province, we're seeing the manifestations of that. But again, we're also seeing police services come together with public health and health partners

to confront those challenges through mobile crisis intervention teams, for example, where you have a police officer partnered with a nurse or a social worker out in the community providing the best response to somebody who might be going through a mental health crisis. We know that this province is not built equally. Whether we talk about the vast geography of it, whether we talk about sort of the money that gets poured into sort of the services, whether it's policing or so forth.

Based off of your travels, what are some trouble spots within Ontario? Well, I think police services right across this province are confronting certain challenges when it comes to the cost of policing. And that's why the role of police service boards, which is not as well known to sort of the general public, are so important.

Yes, they're the governors of the police service, but they're also the financiers. They're the ones who fashion a budget based on the advice of the chief of police, and they ultimately decide what it will cost to deliver adequate and effective policing. But police budgets come from the local municipal tax base for the most part.

And so making sure that we are looking around corners, identifying future and anticipated challenges so that those budgets and the plans around them can actually be responsive to local needs, that is what is important. And in the new Community Safety Policing Act, every police service board has to consult with their chief and develop a strategic plan that's

in place for a period of years to help serve as a roadmap for that police service so that it's not a year-to-year thing where you're evaluating, you're actually seeing how you're doing along a longer journey. As we know, the Ontario Provincial Police is not the local police service for the entire province of Ontario. Do you see a future with the OPP expanding beyond sort of its current jurisdictions? Well the OPP does great work in dozens upon dozens of communities across the province where they have primary policing responsibility and dozens and dozens of communities where

they provide a supportive role. Public order policing is a great example. The convoy protest that happened in 2022, the OPP deployed public order teams in support of Ottawa and Windsor and others to assist. And so increasingly we are seeing a need for the OPP to be nimble and to be responsive to a myriad of issues that present, including issues at the border with the United States,

where they currently have an operation ongoing that they are leading, and other municipal police services and the RCMP are supporting. And so I think it's important to ensure that as the provincial police service, the OPP has the tools and resources that it needs to meet an increasingly demand in a growing province with a growing population

and increasingly complex public safety issues. Indigenous communities and police have had a, let's say, a rocky history in this province. Do we need a new relationship between Indigenous Police Services, I believe there's nine First Nations services in this province, and the OPP? Well, so the Community Safety Policing Act included

a brand new mechanism. And we celebrated a recent milestone where for the first time in Ontario history, a First Nations community or band council can opt in to the Police Act. And the Ninishnabegaskee Nation, in coordination with the Ninishnabegaskee Police Service and Board, was the very first

that just last December has opted in to the Police Service Act. And so now you have a newly constituted police service that is subject to the same oversight as any other municipal police service or the OPP and also must meet the adequacy standards of municipal services in the OPP. And so in cooperation with the Ontario government that announced some funding, that police service is now operating in this new environment cooperation with the Ontario government that announced some funding. That police service is now operating in this new environment and we're working very

closely with them in partnership to again explain our role but also learn about some of the challenges policing in some of these communities that are in the very far north, some of which you can only access by winter roads or fly-in. And so the unique dimensions of First Nations policing need to be top of mind to any government, but also to any oversight body that applies its mandate. I know that your focus for the most part has been Ontario, but it's hard to kind of imagine that, you know, we don't watch the headlines that are happening south of the border. I am curious, I want to get your takes.

What are your thoughts about what's happening currently right now in California? We've got 4,000 National Guard members, 700 Marines called to respond to protests against immigration raids, all orders from the US President, not the governor there. Just curious, I know this is not your jurisdiction, but as someone who this is what you look for here in the province, what are your thoughts? My thoughts is that I'm grateful that we have the system that we have in this province and in this country, where we have premiers and prime ministers

that work together on community safety challenges, where we have police chiefs that have their own independent mandate and jurisdiction, and police boards that oversee and govern them. And wrapped around all of this, independent oversight bodies that have the ability to call it like they see it, but ultimately call it like they see it to make sure that the system is the very best that it can be.

Fortunately, I don't have a personal social media account out in the Twitterverse or Truth Social. And so I don't have to worry about maybe incurring President Trump's wrath. But I will say it is troubling to me when a local leader that has been elected by his fellow residents is saying that their local police service and services can handle the situation. And despite that, and seemingly with very little dialogue, certainly not with partnership, a decision is made to have others enter that jurisdiction without coordination, without real planning.

And then the question becomes to what end. And so taking a situation that is already volatile and potentially making it more volatile with the absence of dialogue, I think that's something that is troubling and fortunately not something that I've been seeing here in Ontario. All right, I've got about 30 seconds left. I'm going to ask you a pretty big question here. I'm going to give you all the power here.

You've got the magic wand. What do you want to change in policing across the province right now? We released a strategic plan that lays out three priorities. And one of them is about looking around corners and anticipating risks. So we are seeing a situation where different parts of the system are working well, but others are under strain.

And so ultimately, my goal is to make sure that we at the Inspectorate paint a whole picture of how policing is delivered, help police services improve their performance to make everyone safer. Sometimes that's going to be about money. Sometimes that's going to be about better training. And sometimes that's going to be about doing things more consistently across the province. And so we're going to be applying the tools of our trade, following the evidence through our

different inspections and our data and analytics to help police services and boards be the very best they can be, not just in this province but right across this country. All right, we're going to leave it there. Ryan Teshner, thank you so much. Ryan Teshner is Ontario's first Inspector General of Policing. Thank you very much. Thank you.