The Agenda with Steve Paikin (Audio) - Can Canada and Mexico Team up Against Trump?

Episode Date: May 1, 2025

With the federal election campaign over and Mark Carney's Liberals securing a new mandate from Canadians, what relationships should the government prioritize going forward in its trade war with the Trump Administration? One country we might look to is Mexico. Given its close geographic proximity and strained relationship with the U.S., what opportunities might exist for Canada and Mexico to team up against Trump? Host Steve Paikin asks: José Luis Granados Ceja, co-host of the Soberanía Mexican Politics podcast and presenter of Sin Muros on Mexico's Channel 11; Solange Márquez Espinoza, Geopolitical analyst and Editor of "Mexico & Canada: Two Nations in a North American Partnership," and Alejandro García Magos, Lecturer of Political Science at the University of Toronto. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

He was like a father figure to me. Unfortunately, found myself in a very vulnerable position. This is a story about a psychiatrist in Toronto accused of abusing two of his patients, which he denies. It's also a story about a system that is supposed to protect patients. From TVO Podcasts, I'm Krisha Collier, and this is The Oath. Subscribe today wherever you listen. With the federal election campaign over

and Mark Carney's liberals securing a new mandate from Canadians, what relationships should the government prioritize going forward in its trade war with the Trump administration? Well, one country we might look to is Mexico. Given its own close geographic proximity and strained relationship with the U.S., what opportunities might exist for Canada and Mexico

to team up against Trump? Let's explore that. In Mexico City, we welcome Jose Luis Granados-Saya, journalist and co-host of the Soberania Mexican Politics Podcast. And with us here in studio Solange Marquez Espinosa, geopolitical analyst and editor of Mexico and Canada, Two Nations in a North American Partnership. And Alejandro Garcia Magos, lecturer of political science at the University of Toronto,

and we are delighted to have you two here in our studio. And Jose Luis, thank you for being there for us on the line from Mexico City. I'm gonna start by just reading here an English translation of Mexican President Claudia Scheinbaum's congratulating Canada's Prime Minister, Mark Carney. This was on X and here we go. On behalf of the people and government of Mexico,

we congratulate Prime Minister Mark Carney on his victory in the recent Canadian elections. We look forward to continuing to work with our trading partner. Well, of course, we want to know how much we can read into that. So Jose Luis, tell us, how is the news of Mark Carney staying on as prime minister being received in Mexico? Well, generally, I'd say that people feel good about it. I would say first and foremost, most Mexicans are probably relieved that Trump won't have

an ideological ally in Canada and that the positive relationship that Mexico and Canada have had historically will likely continue with this new leadership, with this new mandate. I think it was very important that Carney got this mandate, having arrived to the Prime Minister's office through an internal election, but now has received that blessing from the people of Canada. So, Lange, what do you think about the Carney victory and how Mexicans are taking it? Well, I think Mexico is taking it with cautious optimism, especially because some of the Carney's approaches, first approaches are not Mexico. So I think that is important to take into account.

You know, Prime Minister Carney did not mention Mexico in his victory speech the other night, but he and President Scheinbaum apparently did speak by telephone on the 1st of April. Can you tell us about what the key takeaways from that phone call might have been? Yes. One thing that I noticed in the press release of that phone call, it was that it was very short, very minimal. It was as if almost they say, they spoke on the phone, that's it. One thing that I was missing in that press release was the state of the Mexico-Canada

relation. As we remember last year, Mr. López Obrador put them on hold, right? And we still don't know if they are still on hold. We still don't know if the criticism that the candidate ambassador levied against the government of López Obrador in terms of the judicial reform, nothing was said about that. So it was very... there was a lot of things that was not said in that press release. Okay, well, let's follow up. José Luis, I'll get you back in here. To what extent do you think the Carney victory potentially could signal a different approach to Canadian-Mexican relations

from the way Justin Trudeau ran things. I hope it does represent a difference. In fact, the last time you and I talked here on the program, you mentioned that there were some voices inside of the PMO that seemed to welcome this effort to throw Mexico under a bus in Canada's dealings with the United States, hoping that that would save Canada's skin and all of this. So I'm hoping that Carney's election victory does represent a break from that attitude and that there is an approach that is constructive and respectful of the sovereignty. I was very, very struck by Carney's words in his victory speech when he talked,

and I keep making this joke, like a Latin American populace talking about how the US wants Canada's territory and resources. That's actually language that's very familiar to us here in Mexico, and I think that could be an opportunity for us to approach this relationship as equals. And I think that if Carny's election here represents a move away from that paternalism that we did see, not from exactly from Trudeau, but certainly Canadian politicians like Doug Ford, then I think it could be positive for the relationship to have that respect between partners. I was going to bring up the Ford example in fact Solange because Doug Ford of course talks about this am-can relationship, which quite pointedly does not include Mexico. He wants to create a fortress of Canada and the United States. Any suspicion about whether Carney is onside or offside

with that approach? Well, as I started, my main concern is that Carney has mentioned Mexico in his last speeches. His first approach, I think, is the European Union. Of course, he's trying to diversify the trade from Canada and trying to find new allies. But I think Mexico is not in the first place in that list. And it concerns me because Carney looking up to the KUSMA is not seen as a trilateral relation, as a strategy. I think he's looking for a bilateral relationship with the United States and I think that is

a problem and it will be a problem with Mexico. You would prefer a trilateral as opposed to a bilateral situation. Of course, of course. And I think it's the best thing for Mexico, and it's the best thing for Canada, too. In 2019, when the first Kuzma was negotiated with Donald Trump in his first term, he tried to divide Mexico and Canada.

He wanted a bilateral agreement in that time. And at the end of the day, Mexico and Canada. He wanted a bilateral agreement in that time. And at the end of the day, Mexico and Canada agreed and they understood that they're stronger together. So I hope Mark Carney understands that. And he's going to look for a trilateral agreement instead of a bilateral one. Well, let's follow up on that. There's an excerpt from an open letter to Prime Minister Carney. This is from the Business Council of Canada. For more than six decades, agreements

such as the AutoPact, the Canada-US Free Trade Agreement, the North American Free Trade Agreement, and now the Canada-United States-Mexico Agreement, KUSMA, have provided the certainty and preferential market access necessary to make North America a global trade and investment superpower. Based on those agreements, robust supply chains have been built to connect communities across the continent. In recent weeks, you have indicated, you Prime Minister, that you intend to immediately begin

comprehensive, possibly bilateral, negotiations with the United States for a new economic and security relationship. In our view, a bilateral arrangement could create unnecessary risk and undermine Canada's mutually beneficial trilateral economic partnership with the United States and Mexico. Okay, Alejandro, you want to come in there and tell us whether you like or don't like the sound of that? I like the sounds. But I think you mentioned a key word here, which is certainty. That certainty in Mexico is gone. These are the words of the ambassador, the Canadian ambassador to Mexico,

very concerned about the dismantling of the judiciary, the democratic erosion that we're seeing in the country. So when we talk about the idea of keeping Mexico as a trade partner, we also need to put into context what's going on in Mexico, which is many, many observers are seeing a process of political decay, which is something that we need to consider. Okay. José Luis, how about you on that Business Council of Canada letter and how you react to it?

I think it's interesting when the criticism is aimed at Mexico for deepening its democracy. I personally think that it's actually favorable to see the election of judiciary, and I don't consider it to be an erosion, when especially given that we have what is clearly an authoritarian state in the United States with that kind of leadership that we have in Washington right now. I think if there is uncertainty in the trilateral relationship, it's coming from the United States and that actually makes more sense for Canada to have a closer relationship with Mexico because in a lot of ways we're in the same boat.

We have the same kind of very deeply tied economic relationship to the United States and export oriented economy. And we have the 2026 USMCA negotiations coming up. And given the fact that the party that has most disrupted this economic relationship has actually been Trump, we need to actually get together to prepare ourselves for that renegotiation, because that's going to be the true test of that certainty, whether or not businesses are going to be able to trust that this longstanding economic partnership is actually going to stay in place.

And I don't think the risk comes from Mexico, but actually from the United States. Alright, Solange, do you believe that the Trump administration's approach to North American affairs actually behooves Canada and Mexico to get closer together? Yeah, I I would think that it's supposed to be the logical consequence. I am not quite sure that politically our leaders are doing that, not even in Mexico nor in Canada. Why not?

Because in the case of Mexico, they are more interested in domestic issues and I think unfortunately the North American partnership is not in the priority list in Mexico. And as we have seen in the last days here in Canada, well it appears that electoral issues were more important of course I understand that but were more important and the trilateral relation and the bilateral relation with Mexico was not in the agenda because it was not important at that moment. My hope is that after the election and when all these trade issues and policy issues started to be more important at the election, they are going to take these things into account

and they are going to start strengthening the lines of communication with Mexico. Alejandro. Referring to what José Luis said, he mentioned that Mexico and Canada are in the same boat. I differ with that. Mexico and the US are in the same boat. Both countries are going in a process of democratic erosion of autocratization. Canada, in this election in Monday, we actually see an electorate that very strongly claims that we don't want to follow that path, that we reject that form of authoritarian populism. That is the message that I'm getting. So I don't see Mexico and Canada politically getting a line.

If anything, we see Canada moving this way to a democratic, liberal model, and Mexico mingling with the likes of Venezuela, of Nicaragua, being bodies with the Cubans. So they are in different paths here. We are not in the same boat. I don't necessarily want to read too much into this, but Jose Luis, I will get your view on this.

And that is when Marc Carney did become prime minister, immediately after he won the leadership convention earlier this year, his first trip was not to the United States. It was not to Mexico. It was to Europe, right? He went over and he first met with the United Kingdom. What do you think that says about his priorities vis-a-vis Mexico? I think it says very clearly where his priorities are. I actually found it a little bit disappointing that he took almost a month to get in contact with Scheinbaum,

given the importance of this relationship. And it speaks a bit to a fact to where they think things are headed. Canada very much is interested in deepening relationships with other parts of the world in his victory speech. He mentions Asia, Europe. Whereas Mexico, its economic priorities are, as Solange said, on sort of an economic nationalism, a refocus on the national economy, on strengthening the purchasing power of the working classes. He's expanding, raising the minimum wage, expanding social programs. And so it's a very different focus in that sense.

And I do think that in that regard, it might be different. But on the point around democracy, yes, Canada had a free, fair election, but it's still a polarized country. If you look at the results, it's still a minority government. That doesn't have quite the same stability. Whereas here in Mexico, Alejandro may disagree with the ideological orientation of this government,

but it's extremely popular. Poll after puts Kalei Sheim on the 80% support. She won a landslide victory in the presidential election. Her party and its governing coalition has a super majority in Congress. And this is all the product of a democratic process. So I don't consider that to be a slide. It's a very different system, but it's one that is headed in a very democratic direction. Alejandro?

Yes. So a divided electorate is no sign of authoritarianism. Democratic erosion and the dismantling of the judiciary is a sign of democratic erosion and autocratization. Coming from the left or the right, it doesn't matter. The fact is that in Mexico, the institutions that took 20 years to build that sustained a democracy have been completely destroyed in the last six years. Solange. Yeah, I just want to say for Canadian interest, what is happening in Mexico is the weakening of democratic institutions. Unfortunately, if we don't have a judicial power that is independent,

if we don't have the credibility of the institutions that will protect the investments of Canadian companies, it will damage their relationship with Mexico and Canada. So that's all. In that, I agree with with Alejandro because that is a problem and unfortunately popularity doesn't mean it is democratic because popularity we can be the popularity we can see for example El Salvador and Aji Bukele has a very high rating approvals. It doesn't mean that it is democratic so democracy is different and mean that it is democratic.

So democracy is different and it is institutions that matter. And for Canadian interests, it is this weakening of democratic institutions that matter. Jose Luis, you wanna come back at that? Well, I would say that here in Mexico, the Mexican population, it's not just about popularity, but actually expressed for the first time ever in actual satisfaction in a 2024 poll by Latino Baromito in its democracy. These democratic institutions of the neoliberal democratic transition that happened

following the election of Fox in the year 2000, I think were, yes, a built-in side of the model of a liberal democratic order, but one that actually didn't deliver very many results to the population. And that's why you saw so much dissatisfaction with the existing democratic model in Mexico and why there's such a deep embrace of that, because it's actually delivering things to the vast majority, the poor majority here in the country. It's not just about being popular, but in fact, it's about actually having a

positive impact in the material conditions of working class campesinos here in Mexico. And I think that actually is an expression of democratic willingness to engage with the population, of not serving just the elites and the policymakers and the pundits, but actually the Mexican population itself. You have provoked Alejandro, who wants one more comment on this. Sure.

Yeah. So to say that the democratic transition happened after the victory of Fox in 2000, that's factually wrong. The democratic transition in Mexico starts in 1977 and ends in 1996 and throughout this process, everything was around giving autonomy to the electoral authorities so that government did not have a say and control in counting the votes. The process went from 77 to 1996, four years before Fox even was in the presidency.

Okay. I think we've had a good kick at this one. I want to have us look forward now and get your opinions on where you think the best opportunities, Solange, to you first for increased collaboration, increased trade, increased whatever, better relations between Mexico and Canada. How does that look to you? Well, for me, Mexico and Canada should start working together, start forming a working group on trade, especially because they need to strengthen the supply chains. What is happening with the US and all these threats on tariffs and everything is that

the supply chains are under siege, if I can say that. So what Mexico and Canada should secure is the supply chains. So how they start to manage this economic resilience for both countries is to start talking, start the meetings, start parliamentary meetings, bilateral. But I think they have a lot of opportunities, even in sectors that might seem competitors, for example,

the automotive sector. Jose Luis, how about you? Where are the opportunities going forward? might seem competitors, for example, the automotive sector. Jose Luis, how about you? Where are the opportunities going forward? Certainly, I think the world international order is being remade. I agree with Carney when he said in his speech that it seems that we're at a turning point.

He called it a hinge moment. But I do think it's important to pay attention of what direction we're going in. Mark Carney wrote a book in 2021. It's basically a defense of the existing neoliberal order. And I worry that his representation of the status quo is not going to get Canada out of this situation. Mexico has chosen an anti-neoliberal path.

And I think that is delivering real results to the population. I want to be emphatic about that. And so we'll see what happens moving forward because things are happening quickly. And I think the more that we're able to learn from positive experiences, I think the better we'll be. And I would actually encourage Canadians to look to Mexico, to not necessarily listen to these pundits that want to, you know, drive home this point of an authoritarian regression when actually the satisfaction levels here in Mexico, the happiness indices here in Mexico are actually quite good. And I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that it's moving away from the neoliberal model.

And that's something that maybe Canadians can learn from and that could be a product of closer exchanges between our countries. Alejandro, opportunities between our countries going forward. What do you see? The opportunities are there, but I think Mr. Carney will have to make a decision in terms of how close he wants to associate with a government that is undermining democratic institutions in the Americas. It's not going to look very nice for Mr. Carney to be in that space. Speaking of, José Luis mentioned saying, don't look at what's happening in Mexico.

No, yes, look at what's happening in Mexico. It's very important. By the way, Elections Canada play a pivotal role in the democratization of Mexico. Elections Canada helped Mexico during those years, 77 to 1996, to create the Instituto Nacional Electoral, who allowed for free and fair elections in the country. So, Canada should be very proud of being a place where it's exporting democracy.

Canada should be proud that they played a pivotal role in Mexico in those years of democratization. And now the question for Carney is, what role is he going to play? Is he going to support democracy in Mexico? Is he going to support pro-democracy forces that are trying to prevent that complete destruction of institutions of democracy in Mexico? Or he's going to look to their side and don't try to mess with that?

I don't know what his priority is right now. I suspect it will have more to do with trying to exploit potential business opportunities between the two countries. Solange, maybe in terms of mining, what do you see happening there? Yeah, in terms of mining, rare minerals, I think there is an opportunity there.

Agricultural also is an important sector. But I think there is something very important for Canada and why Canada and Mexico should stay together. And it is also because Canada has a lot of influence in the region, in Latin American region, because of all the aid and help in different issues in the case of Mexico electoral and the different issues. And the influence of Canada is very positive for the region in terms of democratic values and everything. So when Canada back up as the United States are doing now,

if they back up, the problem is that there are other actors willing to take that space. In this case is China. And China will not have any problem to take that space. In this case is China and China will not have any problem to take the place that Canada do not want to play to play in Latin American specifically in Mexico. So that's a very important reason why Canada should stay and should maintain and strengthen the relationship with Mexico and of course with Latin American countries. Jose Luis I need to ask you about the auto industry and of course we have a

a tripartite arrangement at least for a little while longer between Canada, the United States and Mexico. If Canada and Mexico wanted to get closer together in the auto industry, I mean there's this big country America that's in the way. So how do we do it? I think that's why we have to emphasize as far as we can and hopefully succeed in that in the tripartite arrangement because you know I was looking at a report from the Conditional Research Service they say auto parts will cross the border either Canada, US, US-Mexico up to eight times before it's actually put into final assembly. So it'd be very difficult without that but if that is the direction where things will, then we need to think about how we can actually develop

the infrastructure, the different kinds of arrangements with other parts of the world in order to do that because of the behemoth to Canada South and Mexico's North, which again, I think actually represents the biggest threat, the biggest authoritarian risk for the region far more than Mexico does. You know, when they talk about these actors here that are standing up for democracy in Mexico, I wonder who he's talking about. Is it perhaps somebody like former President Ernesto Zedillo, who recently published a letter and published

in an interview with Nexus, you know, making many similar arguments here. I will say here in Mexico, Zedillo's comments were not well received by the vast majority of the population. It's very difficult to hear these arguments about a so-called tyranny approaching here in Mexico when it's coming from a figure who was responsible for massacres, who was accused of human rights violations, who allowed the army to develop paramilitary forces in Chiapas, which engaged in horrific crimes like in Actiel. So here in Mexico, I would say again, the perspective about the democratic

nature of the country is really quite different and it's not one that is shared by other members here of the panel. And I think that Carney actually might be interested in becoming close with somebody like Shimon because of her immense popularity, not just in Mexico, but the profile that she has in the world with various news outlets now actually considering is she the anti-Trump because how successfully she has been in navigating this very difficult relationship and the lessons that can be drawn for that for Canada as now it approaches with this new

leadership, the US-Canada relationship. Yeah, we're very focused on the Canadian-Mexican relationship here. And I don't want to go too far down the path of having you to argue different versions of Mexican history here. But since Jose Luis went there, I'll give you a short chance to respond, and then let's get back on the path. Go ahead.

Jose Luis asked who am I referring to. I'm going to give you just a few numbers, just a few names. Sorry. Carlos Castillo-Peraza, Alberto Castillo, Cuauhtemoc Cardenas, Luis Gonzalez de Alba. Who are these people? I'm asking a question. He said, like, who was involved in that construction of democracy?

He said, like, Cedillo? Yes, Cedillo. But a lot of Mexicans from all kinds, from the right to the left, they were involved in the construction of democracy, which in the last years it has been eroded from by Mr. Lopez and Mr. Sheinbaum. Okay. Back on the path here, what do you see as the biggest obstacles to preventing Canada and Mexico from getting closer together?

Again, the diverging path politically that both countries have. Canada is taking a very clear stance that they don't want to go the path of populism. They don't like the likes of Trump, they are strengthening their democratic institutions. And Mexico has taken a different path and that goal is just going to be increasing and it's going to create diplomatic problems as we saw last year when the Canadian ambassador criticized the attempts of the Lopez administration to pass an electoral reform that essentially eliminates the division of powers in the country. That caused diplomatic tension, it's still there, still simmering. So that, in my view, that's going to be the main problem, that these countries are politically

diverging in different directions. Well, having said that, José my view, that's going to be the main problem, that these countries are politically diverging in different directions. Well, having said that, José Luis, do you think on the other hand, that the existence of Trump kind of forces Canada and Mexico to be closer together to deal with this? Well, use whatever word you like to describe the current administration that we have to share this continent with. What do you think? I think geopolitically, it makes a lot of sense. We are smaller countries.

We're middle income countries. We can't compete with the United States the way that perhaps China could. So diversifying those relationships and having actually closer connections that don't pass through the United States, I think makes perfect sense for this relationship. And I agree with Solange. Canada's place in the world has high regard. I think sometimes it's unearned, but certainly it is viewed as a champion of human rights.

But when we talk about human rights, certainly here in Mexico, we don't limit it to just civil and political rights, but the economic, the social, the cultural rights as well. And I hope that Scheinbaum and Carney could actually come together around this shared understanding about a commitment to human rights, about expanding the social safety net, about making sure that people don't fall through the cracks, about actually making sure that we're meeting our constitutional obligations. I think Carney very much would find a

partner in Scheinbaum with that. Solange. Yeah, just a quick comment about the challenges, because I agree, the political instability in Mexico and the policy changes in Mexico make it difficult to continue the relationship, especially for example in energy sector. When Mexico started last administration to change the policy regulation, it makes for Canadian companies investments there to be completely uncertain. So those companies started to suffer a lot because of the nationalistic view from Mexico on the energy production.

So that is another challenge that Canada and Mexico has ahead on the table for their relationship. Just a few minutes to go here. We have a G7 meeting coming up in June in Alberta in this country. Jose Luis, Claudia Scheinbaum, should she be at the table? Mexico has participated in other meetings of the G8 when it was still the G8. But since it's been the G7, there

hasn't been that much participation. I think it would be a good idea to have an invitation. It's very unlikely that Scheinbaum herself would attend. She is one who, like Lopez Obrador before her, is very much focused on the domestic agenda. In fact, the community of Latin American Caribbean state, which is kind of an alternative to the OAS, recently had a meeting and the host, Xiongmara Castro of Honduras, had to basically beg Sheinbaum to attend. And she ultimately did convince her, but she said, I'm only going for half a day. So I think it would be difficult, even if there was an invitation for Sheinbaum to go.

But certainly, I think if the invitation came, she would certainly send a high-level representation from her government. I do think that that would be positive to have that there. Mexico has an important place. And I think if Canada is interested in a better relationship with the rest of Latin America, I think going through Mexico and being a partner of Mexico is a good way to start.

Well, if Canada invited the Mexican president to come, but she didn't and sent somebody else, would that be problematic? Absolutely. I would hope that they wouldn't take offense to it or take it personally in that regard. Like I said, Scheinbaum is not one to necessarily put too much emphasis on the foreign agenda. She did attend the G20.

And so there is that presence and like the select I mentioned, but I don't I wouldn't take it personally if she doesn't go. She's very much focused on the domestic agenda here. She said so herself that it's just there's so much to do. She's kind of a very I don't want to say micromanager, but they say she's very data driven. She always wants to hear information directly from her cabinet. So I think that's probably why she would decline. You know, you can't see this here, but so long as you've been shaking your head

from the beginning of that answer you gave. Why are you shaking your head so much? Because it is very sad that our previous administration and this administration didn't understand the place that Mexico can play in the international arena. So saying that Mexico, that Claudia Schemel would not attend the G7 meeting if she received, it is kind of, come on, you cannot take it personally.

Of course it is personal, because these meetings are very high level. You are not expecting a ministry. You're expecting the head of state doing their job and it is an opportunity for Mexico to demonstrate the importance of Mexico. We are a big and very important economy in the world and we played a very important role in Latin American issues and also in other parts of the North American partnership. So saying that Mexico can receive this G7

invitation and not attend, it will be absolutely nonsense. What do you think? I agree with Solange. I would, I mean about invitation, no. I don't think they should invite her. Don't invite her? No. No. And the reason is because I would like to see Carney using his power to put pressure on Mexico, put pressure on the president. No one is going to save Mexican democracy. No one is going to save the judiciary.

It's only Mexicans that can do it. But it would help if someone at least points and puts a little political pressure, diplomatic pressure and say, hey, we're seeing what you're doing. We don't like it. We need certainty and we want to have a democratic partner in Mexico. José Luis, what is the one thing you would like Prime Minister Carney to prioritize when it comes to the Canadian-Mexican relationship?

Respect for sovereignty. I think Carney has been talking about Canadian sovereignty. I think we should take him up on that and that we agree. Thaddeus Shyamalan actually stood up for Canadian sovereignty when Trump was attacking Trudeau saying that that was an inappropriate way of referring to a leader.

And so I hope that that's the way it goes. And that means not interfering, not actually taking Alejandro up on his advice to say that they should put diplomatic pressure because of the domestic considerations here. I think it would be inappropriate and it would be somewhat hypocritical given his current rhetoric about respect for sovereignty. And as long as we can, of course, and even on that sense as well, of inviting Canadian investment if they're interested, as long as they respect Mexican

environmental laws and labor laws, I think that kind of relationship can certainly flourish. Alejandro. Well, of course, it can be a surprise. I would like to see Carney putting first a democratic rule, rule of law in Mexico in the agenda, in the conversations, of course, business, industry, making money, of course, but putting on top of the agenda respect for democratic institutions, rule of law, and of course human rights, which in Mexico right now it's in a huge crisis.

Solange? Well, I think economic resilience and to do that they need a reliable partner. A reliable partner have strong institution, democratic institutions, so I think that. Can I thank the three of you, not only for appearing on our program tonight, but for disagreeing in such a civil way. We love civil disagreement here and try to model that behavior to other members of the media and political leaders in the country. So bravo.

Jose Luis, Granados Seya, Solange Marquez, Espinosa, Alejandro Garcia Magos. Great to have you all on TVO tonight. Many thanks. Thank you so much.