The Agenda with Steve Paikin (Audio) - Can Canada Stay United?

Episode Date: June 7, 2025

The Agenda's week in review looks at how Canada can stay united amidst regional tensions, and why Indigenous leaders oppose the Ontario government's Bill 5.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

To the extent we have these massive regional cleavages in the country, is a nation coast-to-coast mega project of some kind the ticket to making us closer? Well, you have to distinguish coast-to-coast and what Jason was just talking about. The real opportunities for Canadian oil and gas is westward. There's lots, and we can talk about Quebec, and there's lots of gas in Quebec, but they can't get at it because of a ban on drilling and fracking for now. But there have been lots of studies. We at the School of Public Policy team of people have worked for quite a few years since 2015 on the whole concept of corridors. And one of the first conclusions is one, shortcuts make for long delays, and two,

cross Canada east-west is less of an opportunity and fraught with some other difficulties than, frankly, some of the earlier projects that were already on the books like the Northern Gateway pipeline. We certainly see LNG Canada now with natural gas going off the West Coast. Hopefully that will get expanded. There are a couple of others. So I think for the Western oil and gas opportunities, which have been really frustrated over the last 10 years,

and I would say even more, it's really a westward opportunity that is probably the most important now. Felix, let me just change the question somewhat to say we know that whatever happens going forward we'll have to incorporate Indigenous consultation into whatever the big plan is. How do, what's the right way to achieve that so that whatever the bigger projects are coming down the road can be accomplished? Well, I think the best way forward would be to have open-ended negotiations, to

have indigenous communities presented as real partners to this economic plan of development and not only as potential barriers to achieving this. So if you introduce indigenous communities and leaders and have them at the decision table, at the negotiation table, I think this is the only way forward to have them feel that they are treated with respect and seen as partners, not as barriers. I think this is crucial. John, how are you seeing it? I think, first of all, that's very important. But also, I think indigenous Canadians, like Western Canadians, like Quebecers,

and like those of us in Ontario, recognize we are at an existential point in this country's history. The reason that Darryl Bricker and I decided to do Breaking Point was it seemed to us that Donald Trump arrived at a time when we realized we had failed for generations, really, to deal with big problems, the problems of federation, of provincial powers, problems in defense, problems in immigration,

big problems in immigration, and big generational problems in which, frankly, you and I and our cohorts, the boomers and the millennials, have failed the younger generation, condemning them to probably the first generation that will not live as well as their parents did. And all of this is coming at us all at the same time, all of it with Donald Trump threatening annexation. And it's a real, as we say, a breaking point.

It's certainly a decision point. We have some big things that we have to get done and we have to get them done now. I actually want to show a map of Ontario highlighting the various nations you both, Kate and Zachary, are representing in relation to the Ring of Fire. You can see Thunder Bay to the south, Moose Creek right there to the border, and the Ring of Fire in red. Sakri, one measure of Bill 5 is to create, as you mentioned, those special economic zones,

including the Ring of Fire. Legally speaking, though, break down the jargon here. What does that mean? Right. So I think the first level of concern is we don't know. Right? There aren't a lot of details about what the rules would be in a special economic zone,

because all that the bill says is that the government will come up with them later in regulations. This is particularly concerning with the new language we started here last week, that the bill would also provide for Indigenous-led economic zones. Now, I agree, we need to acknowledge Indigenous leadership. But beyond that, that is just a string of words. They have provided no details as to what goes into that. Here's the problem. The government of Ontario cannot exempt themselves

from the duty to consult. That's a constitutional obligation. Right now, we're not huge fans of the mining regime. But there are a series of decision points in the mining regime, an exploration plan, exploration permits, all the way down to a closure plan and closure permits. Each one of those decision points triggers the duty to consult. That's when First Nations engage with the government, share their concerns. There's a potential for negotiation. There's a potential for accommodation.

In the special economic zone, those could just be wiped off the table. So First Nations don't know when, how, where, or if they're going to be consulted. And that's the real concern. When Chief Wesley mentioned the amendment last week, that says that the government will respect treaty rights and the duty to consult. But it doesn't say how. So we're just sort of floating in the consultative ether. That's the problem.

All right. Lots of question marks there. Kate, Zachary had kind of mentioned some examples. Can you give us a couple of other examples of provincial laws that companies working on these projects can be exempted from? Yeah, Kate, can I just, though, address something that's already been said?

There's a case filed in court now in Ontario that says that First Nations never gave up and the Crown governments, like the Ontario government, never legally acquired the right to take over all decision-making authority or governance rights over the land that comprises Ontario or frankly Canada. That First Nations retain their right to govern, not just on their little reserves, but across the land, alongside equally with the Crown governments. This was guaranteed by treaties, and so when Chief Wesley is talking about treaty rights,

we're not just talking about the right to hunt or fish or gather berries. It's the right to a way of life, including the governance of the land on which that life has always been, always been for the indigenous nations. They've always been here. And so I want to make it clear that what many First Nations, if not all, in Ontario are now saying about Bill 5 is what it's really harming is the right to decide.