The Agenda with Steve Paikin (Audio) - Can Israelis and Palestinians Find Peace?

Episode Date: May 2, 2025

It seems nobody ever loses a bet forecasting that things can only get worse in the Middle East. And the last year-and-a-half has been particularly awful. The Hamas attack and hostage taking in Israel on October 7, 2023. The ensuing Israeli response which has killed so many in Gaza. Does it always have to be this way? Angela Mattar is a Palestinian activist and medical student. Itamar Avneri is an Israeli city councillor for the municipality of Tel Aviv/Jaffa. They are both part of a group called Standing Together, which dares to imagine a future that is very different from the past.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

He was like a father figure to me. Unfortunately, found myself in a very vulnerable position. This is a story about a psychiatrist in Toronto accused of abusing two of his patients, which he denies. It's also a story about a system that is supposed to protect patients. From TVO Podcasts, I'm Krisha Collier, and this is The Oath. Subscribe today wherever you listen. It seems nobody ever loses a bet forecasting that things can only get worse in the Middle East.

And the last year and a half has been particularly awful. The Hamas attack and hostage-taking in Israel on October 7, 2023. The ensuing Israeli response, which has killed so many in Gaza. Does it always have to be this way? Well, let me introduce you to two people who say no it doesn't. Angela Matar is a Palestinian activist and medical student. Itamar Avnery is an Israeli city councillor for the municipality of Tel Aviv, Yatho. They are both part of a group called Standing Together, which

dares to imagine a future that is very different from the past. And we welcome both of you here to TVO and to Toronto and to Canada. Your first time here in Canada, yes? Yes. Okay, we are delighted to meet you both. Let's just find out more about you before we start. Angela, where were you born? I was born in the north in a village named Abilin. And where is that? That's right 20 minutes from Haifa.

You've heard of Haifa? I have. Yeah, it's a Palestinian village, no Jews, only Muslims and Christians. And that's where I grew up my whole life. And is that, that is within the boundaries of the state of Israel? Yeah, I'm an Israeli citizen. Okay, and you want to be a doctor someday, I gather. Yeah, I'm a medical student

in the Herb University in Jerusalem. Okay, what kind of doctor do you want to be? What kind of doctor? That's a big question. All my life I thought I wanted to be a heart surgeon. And then I realized that with time you figure things out, you unfigure things out, and now I'm really into psychology,

like psychology, psychiatrist. Okay, interesting. How has, there's a big question here, how has the Israeli-Palestinian conflict affected how you think about the world? I grew up in a place where, like all Palestinians in Israel, we don't talk about politics. People say, like, stay calm, don't talk politics, this is how we're going to survive the day.

And then as I grew up, I started learning about my Palestinian identity. I started learning about the stories from 1948. I started asking questions. Questions like, why don't I learn about Nakbe, like the evacuation of the Palestinians from the land? Nakbe is catastrophe in Arabic. Catastrophe in Arabic. Why don't we learn it in the curriculum? Why do our villages are poor and the Jewish settlements

are really rich and growing even more? And then I ask a question that really shook me. Why do I feel like a guest in my own homeland? And that's the struggle that began growing up, that I'm a Palestinian, but I live in Israel. I'm part of the Israeli society. And I was so lucky to be both exposed to Jews, because the first time I encountered them

was in the Lebanon war in 2006. And they took care of me and my brothers when no one else did, in a shelter in Haifa. And that's how I grew up, knowing that it was never about Jews versus Palestinians. And also, I've learned about the beauty of my own culture and identity and my people. So it's helped me be more empathetic and have more room

for more than point of view and more than truth and believe that two truths can be true. And I don't have to give up my own identity in order to embrace my humanity. So I can do both together. Have you lost any family or friends to war? Related to blood, no, but I lost a lot of my people. And good friends and brothers for my friends, not mine. Understood. Okay, Itamar, where were you born? So I was born in a small kibbutz called

Kfar Khoresh, just outside of Nazareth, actually also in northern Israel. But I ran away from the kibbutz, and now I live in Tel Aviv. You live in Tel Aviv. You're a city councilor. True. In Tel Aviv. What do you do?

What does that job entail? So actually, it's not a job. I'm a volunteer over there. And what we are trying to do is to build more public housing in Tel Aviv and in Jaffa. It's not very easy, especially from the opposition, but this is what we are trying to do. And we're also trying to bring Jews

and Palestinians together also in Tel Aviv and Jaffa. Tel Aviv and Jaffa, it's a big city. And we are trying to build, you know, a more patient society where people can learn the narrative of each other and work together and protect our city from very racist forces in our society. Very racist forces meaning what?

Meaning the government, for example, who immediately after October 7, actually on the day of October 7, we had ministers in our government, Itamar Bengvir, Becalis Motrich, that told us that the pogrom from Jaffa is on the way. I live in Florentine. Florentine is a southern neighborhood of Tel Aviv, very close to Jaffa, and people thought for sure that their neighbors, our neighbors from Jaffa are going to kill us.

That was of course a lie. But people in our government tried to tell us that. And so what we've done since October 7 and also from the city council is to try and bring people together against those forces. How has the Israeli-Palestinian conflict affected the way you think about the world? You know, I grew up with this conflict. So in a way for me, it's part of the world, right? It's part of the everyday reality. But what I've learned,

especially in the last year and a half, but also before when we founded Standing Together almost 10 years ago, I learned it's about people. It's about listening to people. It's about listen to people. It's about acting and doing stuff together. And it's about the understanding that although we cannot affect the past, we can affect the future and we have to do something.

So if anything, I think this conflict taught me that the world is ours and we should envision how we want to live in this world and then actually act in order to achieve that. That's what I learned. Have you lost any family or friends to Hamas or Palestinian attacks? So I used to live in Beiri, which is in the Gaza envelope, many years ago. I worked there. And yeah, I know people who were murdered.

I know people who are kidnapped and then murdered. And some of them were remote families. Some of them were people I knew. The answer is yes. Which leads me to the obvious next question, which is given how much death both of you have seen and given the reality of your lives in a very unhappy part of the world, how do you not become overwhelmed

by the anger that so many of your people feel for his side and so many of your people feel for her side? Why don't you start? I lived with this anger my whole life. And also after October 7, my anger started because of all the horrible things I've seen on October 7th. But also of that demand and knowing that they asked me to prove my humanity as a Palestinian. Do you condemn Hamas was the question that I got all the time.

So my anger just grew and grew from both sides and the hatred. But I've learned at some point when I decided to step up and do something and join Standing Together, I decided that I'm taking this anger and I'm using it as a fuel. Like I'm channeling it, I'm doing the action needed in a very not overwhelmed way and overwhelming also because people can be overwhelmed

with the things that I say. I use it and I do the work on the ground every day with people like Itamar. Itamar, how are you not overwhelmed at the losses that your side has sustained? Well, you know, I was lucky enough to already be in standing together when October 7th happened.

So the first conversations I had were with Jews and Palestinians together. We talked about what is it that we need to do. So for me, of course, I feel the anger. I feel sadness. I feel everything. But for me, it's not a story of Palestinians on one side and Jewish people on the other side or Israeli people on the other side.

I think the sides are different. I think the real sides are the warmongers on one side, our Israeli government, who contains fascists and of course Hamas. They're not working together, but they are feeding from one another. And we know that because Benjamin Netanyahu told us so in Hebrew, and I understand Hebrew very well. He said Hamas is an asset. They are on one side and the other side is the side of the people.

The people in Gaza who suffer right now, the people in the West bank that also suffer, you know, right now in the West bank, it's the most violent conditions in 20 years or so. And also the people of Israel who have all of them, everything to benefit from peace. So we have a shared interest and this is what makes us one side. And this is also, you know, dealing with my anger. I try to channeling it into political work.

So let's talk about that different future that you two envisage. How do you think the future can be different from the past? We've always asked ourselves, what is peace not? But never ask ourselves, what is peace? Like I know that I don't want checkpoints. I want liberation for my people. I want security for the Israeli people. How is that different from the past? Everything.

People now in Israel are demonstrating, not only for a ceasefire, but also to like, bring back the democracy, or or to do stuff to control what the right wing is doing. But I'm saying that we are protesting and we are doing the work for a future that was never on this land. Because it was never really peaceful. It was never secure.

It was never a real democracy. At least me as a Palestinian citizen, I've never felt a real democracy in Israel. Do you vote in Israel? I vote in Israel. I do have rights that my people in Gaza, in the West Bank, don't have. And this is exactly why I'm doing the things I'm doing, because I believe I'm not only part of the struggle, I must lead the struggle.

This is why we're building Palestinian and Jewish partnership and leadership inside of Israel, in order to say that the right wing is dominating both the narrative and the power, but the majority of us, the people, we have more in common than what divides us. And we are building this power from the ground up to create a future that we have never seen and witnessed in the Middle East, or in Israel at least. Itamar, what kind of future do you want to build that is different from the past? Well, first of all, I don't want to be an occupier. The things that are happening right now in Gaza, I oppose them, but they

are happening in my name and I reject that. I don't want to be like that. I don't want to live like that. I don't want to live in a society that doing all those things. So in the fish, in the future, I vision Palestinians are free of occupation, free of the blockade, free of the military control of the Israeli society. And also Israelis are free, free of those same things. And we can all live together.

And I would say one more thing. Many times when we talk with people from abroad, from Canada, from the US, from Europe, they're saying, well, this is impossible between Jews and Palestinians, between Israelis and Palestinians. Sorry, but I call bullshit. In each and every survey, we see that the majority of Palestinians and majority of Israelis would support a two state solution. If we'll prove them that is possible. And so I have all the hope in the world that we, the Israelis and the Palestinians

would be able to build such a future because I believe the majorities want such a future. I tell you, I'm a little bit older than both of you. So I can tell you I've been hearing this for 50 years. We know where the solution is. We just can tell you, I've been hearing this for 50 years. We know where the solution is. We just can't get there from here. So everybody knows where this thing is going to end up in the future. How do you get there? We are talking it and it sounds like really music to the eyes what we're saying. This

is like why you said that you've heard that for 50 years, but we're not doing this only in theory. Like we organize on the ground. We mobilize Jews and Palestinians in Israel in order to shift and create a new majority that knows that only the right wing and like a minority of elites benefit from the status quo. They are dominating the narrative than the power. And we need to shift the political power and the political will inside of Israel by mobilizing people and by showing them that we have shared interests and

our futures are intertwined. And this is what we do on the ground every day, every single day. I mean, this is the problem, right, Itamar? The extremists right now control the narrative. Where do you get the more moderate people to rise up and imagine a different future? So first of all, they do rise up. Right now, also in Gaza, we see the fluctuations. Those people are extremely brave. And also in Israel, tens of thousands of people, and sometimes even hundreds of thousands of people

are marching each and every weekend on the streets against the Netanyahu government and for a ceasefire and a hostage deal. So people do rise up. And I want to say something more. They have all the power right now because they are in the government. One of the reasons they are trying to prolong this war is they know that if the war is ended,

also their political future is going to end. The Israeli government is losing in each and every survey. And so the people are rising. And as Angela said, I think the most important mission is to build this political power, to organize all those people. And this is what we are trying to do in standing together.

We not only mobilize people to the streets, we organize them, we build communities. We have 14 chapters across the country and 11 student chapters in universities in Israel in order to build communities that one day would be able to force the Israeli government, no matter which government, to sign a peace agreement with the Palestinian leaders. Now, to the best of my knowledge, you can, as an Israeli citizen, you can protest in the streets of Jerusalem or Tel Aviv or whatever and say, I disagree with my government and I think we should change course.

I don't think Hamas allows that. And I have read lots of stories in the papers about how Hamas, if you protest in Gaza against Hamas, they beat you up or they kill you. Are you not concerned about that? Listen, I live in Israel. I know about my protests. I know about my government. I know that I'm not allowed to wear my kuffi in my protest.

I know that we're not allowed to hold pictures of Palestinian children in our protest. But if you want to ask me what's going on in Gaza and Hamas, that's things that I really not sure that I know a lot about it because I don't live there. So my job now is to work in the place that I know I'm familiar with to stand against my government and do the things we need in order for a peace. Just one.

There will, I take no joy in saying this, but I think it's probably true, there will invariably be at some point in the future another Hamas attack, which will kill Israelis. There will also undoubtedly be another Israeli Defense Forces attack, which will kill Palestinians. How do you not get sucked into the constant cycle of violence and hate? Because we woke up every morning, we go into the office of standing together. And you know, I find there Jews and Palestinians who are talking in Hebrew and in Arabic and

demanding the same things. And so yeah, the reality right now is horrible. You said that there will be another Israeli attack. There is right now, Israelis attacks on Gaza each and every day and against, again, also in the West Bank. And unfortunately, Hamas is still very strong and there's a possibility, of course, they will be able to do another attack. But to get stuck and suck into this reality means it just happened again and again and again. I refuse to accept it.

So yeah, it's very hard sometimes. Yeah, you sometimes don't really want to get out of bed, but then you know what? Then you remember what's the alternative and the alternative is exactly the reality that you just portrayed. And the alternative is exactly the reality that you just portrayed. And that's how we don't get sucked into this reality because we want to get out of it. It's terrible, we're living it right now.

Angela, please. I would love to say that Bibi Netanyahu once said, are we always indefinitely live by the sword? And his answer was yes. And that is not a comment, that's a vision. And I'm sure that also Hamas leaders have that same vision, that they want to live by the sword all their lives. They benefit from this continuous wars,

this continuous killing, this continuous violence. But I know and I'm sure as a Palestinian Israeli that I'm both very, very exposed to the Israeli media, I'm both very exposed to the Palestinian media. I know that the majority of the two peoples are good people. They are good people. And if we're going to keep talking hypothetically about Hamas is going to make another attack, OK,

Hamas is going to do another attack. Because after all the things that's happening now and happened, Hamas is not an organization. It's an idea. It's growing. And someone who has lost all his family today won't hesitate to be part of Hamas 2 not an organization. It's an idea. It's growing and someone who has lost all his family today Won't hesitate to be part of Hamas 2.0, but I'm saying that the occupation also

Persists people are being as Palestinians are being also repressed if each and every day nothing if we're gonna keep Believing that this is the only way we're never gonna go out of this. So we need to build another future by organizing, not by theory. Itamar, what have you learned from her? Oh, so much. First of all, for me as a Jewish Israeli, to see my Palestinian partners fighting for the same future,

it's inspiring because for me it's less dangerous. I can do many things, I can say many things. Israel is not a full democracy, but there's still democratic spaces in Israel and I'm not really afraid about myself. But immediately after October 7, hundreds of Palestinians were arrested inside Israel, Israeli citizens, because they spoke about their pain, But immediately after October 7, hundreds of Palestinians were arrested inside Israel,

Israeli citizens, because they spoke about their pain, because they spoke about the children and the innocent people in Gaza who are being bombarded. And to see Angela doing this work, to see other people in standing together, Palestinian people fighting for that, well, they taught me that I have to speak up. That would be a sin for me to give up on hope. And that's what I learned from Angela. And Angela, you know I'm going to ask you the same thing. What have you learned from him? I've learned a lot.

I just need to say that I wasn't an activist my whole life. I am Palestinian, so I was afraid to speak up. I lost my whole life. I am Palestinian, so I was afraid to speak up. I lost my voice accordingly. And then after October 7, Jews and people like Itamar were there with me when I was called a terror sympathizer for saying that there are Palestinian children in Gaza who are innocent.

And they were the ones who helped me find my voice back and speak up. When I spoke up and people showed me that I'm not allowed, they said keep speaking up, keep doing the work. They were there for me, with me, and they taught me that it's never Jews versus Palestinians. It's like people who believe in peace, liberation, justice, and all kind of equality against those who are a minority,

by the way, but we are afraid to say that out loud. People are afraid to say that out loud who want just words and occupation and dominance and killing. And they have taught me that through real partnership, everything is possible. Everything is possible that I have a voice. This is like what matters the most. Your necklace. My necklace, everybody on my platform and Instagram, they love this necklace.

They ask about it all the time. It's from the Coral Beach in Jerusalem. This is the camera, right? People are seeing there. Yes. Okay, so look at my necklace. This is a dove with an olive branch. It's for peace, a just peace and true peace, habaybe.

It demands courage and liberation and justice, not surrender, and we can do this, like amplify our voices and believe in us. I'm delighted that the two of you are here and made time for us so that you could share your views with our viewers and listeners, And we wish you well. Salam. Salam.

Shalom. Thank you very much. Thank you. Angela Matar and Itamar Avnery. Thank you so much, both of you. Thank you. Thank you very much.