The Agenda with Steve Paikin (Audio) - Charlie Angus: Parliament's Punk Rocker Exits Canadian Politics

Episode Date: January 15, 2025

After two decades of raging against the machine, The NDP MP for Timmins-James Bay, Charlie Angus, is leaving Canadian politics at the end of this parliament's life. He is also the author of a new book called "Dangerous Memory: Coming of Age in the Decade of Greed." He joins Steve Paikin in studio for a wide-ranging discussion on his political career, and a tumultuous period in Ottawa. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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a TVO original podcast. Follow and listen wherever you get your podcasts. After two decades of raging against the machine, the MP for Timmons James Bay, Charlie Angus, is leaving Canadian politics at the end of this parliament's life. He is also the author of a new book called Dangerous Memory, Coming of Age in the Decade of Greed.

And he joins us in studio now for a wide-ranging discussion on his political career and a tumultuous period in Ottawa. Good to have you back here at TVO. Well, it's great to be back. I don't know if you remember this, but you and I actually worked on a show, the same show, at the same time, on this network 30 years ago.

It wasn't quite 30 years ago and I'm actually here seeing if you're going to rehire me. But I do remember I had a lot of fun but I think I got a little too political for you guys. Not for me, maybe for the bosses. I think for the senior management so I had to find another job. That could be. Well you did okay finding another job. In fact, alright, let's go back 20 years because it was the former NDP leader Jack Layton who apparently talked you into running for Parliament in the first place. And I wonder what he saw in a former punk rocker who at the time didn't have a post-secondary education.

What made him think you'd be a good MP? Well, I'm going to challenge that. I am a full graduate from punk rock university. The House of Commons has just refused to put up my academic credentials. Yeah, definitely. Being a politician was not in my worldview. I never thought in a million years I would do it. I got to meet Jack Layton mostly during the Adams Mine garbage fight, which some viewers might remember, and I had gotten very involved in that. Toronto City Council wanted to take Toronto's garbage, ship it way up north to your neck of the woods? To our neck of the woods in what was a really environmentally dangerous and dumb plan.

And I just assumed that all the smart bureaucrats and everybody would do the right thing and they didn't. So it took civic action, it took civil disobedience. And you did stop it. And we stopped it. And Jack was a city councillor then. And he said to me, we need people like you in parliament. And I was like, I don't do, I don't even own a suit, Jack. But Jack said, we need people who

want to do it with integrity. And I was really struck by that. And I was really inspired by Jack. So I threw my name in not thinking, I'm not sure what was going to happen. But I won that election in 2004 by about 700'm not sure what was going to happen, but I won that election in 2004 by about 700 votes, which was quite a squeaker. Did you think you were going to win?

Well, I knew once we were going to run that I wasn't running to lose. I wasn't running to come in second. I was going to go all the way. And you know, 18 months later, we won that riding by 6,000 and then by eight or 10,000. Like it was about being committed and being in the community. You've won eight in a row. Is that right? Eight elections in a row?

Eight or seven in a row. Yeah. Okay. How come no one's been able to beat you? Well, I think politics is about representation. Um, I always used to love stopping in the coffee shop where all the guys are sitting, arguing politics, you know, the old concern or the old liberal, the old new Democrats.

And I always say, gentlemen, I don't care what party you support as long as you vote for me, right? It's about knowing people. It was about being at the legions. It was about being at people's kitchen tables. It was about flying into isolated indigenous communities and saying, oh my God, these are really rough conditions here. What did your last MP say? And they said, our last MP never ever came here. So it was about being on the ground and that's how you build a relationship with people. You've been

there more than 20 years but never on the government side and the question is can you actually accomplish stuff when you're not in government? That's a really important question because I think the naivety is it and the and certainly the main parties the liberals and conservatives always say you know treat the MP is there gonna be some kind of special bag man. He's going to come home with all the money and get you projects built. And that's not how politics works. One of the great things about being in opposition

is that you can put pressure on government. And I have a strategy when there's something that's really important. I go up to the minister and I sit and talk with them. And then if I sense that they're not moving, I say, well, we can do this two ways. We can do it the easy way or say, well, we can do this two ways. We can do it the easy way or the hard way. You really do that? Yeah.

But we're going to get it done. Give me a for instance. For instance, I'm elected, just an absolute nobody sitting in the very, very last row of the House of Commons, the total non-counting seat. I allowed the last question on a Tuesday question period where nobody's paying attention. And I got up and I spoke about E. coli and the water in Kishetchewan.

And I could see as I was asking the question that the minister wasn't even listening. Who was the minister? I'm not going to say. But he wasn't listening. And I said, you people told children in our communities that they could bathe in that water. That's like bathing in a toilet. Would you bathe your own children in that toilet? And suddenly the whole place blew up and the Kishetchewan water crisis created, put the issue of dirty water on reserves on the national stage. It forced

Stephen Harper to bring up, he actually was, he brought forward a whole team to start dealing with water and we've been dealing with the water crisis ever since And trying to fix it. That's what happens having that voice being able to ask a question Does make a difference in politics and it can make a dramatic difference if you're committed to making a difference Okay, having said that though. I'm sure it has crossed your mind at least once over the 20 plus years that you've been there Where you've said to yourself Charlie if I only could be a cabinet minister just one time. Here's what I would have done over the 20 plus years that you've been there, where you've said to yourself, Charlie, if I only could be a cabinet minister just one time,

here's what I would have done. What's on that list? Well, certainly for me, always was the issue of the inequity in the indigenous communities, representing communities like Attawapiskat with the horrific housing crisis, Fort Albany, communities where we had horrific suicide epidemics and recognizing that what you know Indian Affairs I was really

naive I thought it was it was a broken department and it needed to be fixed and I realized it wasn't broken it was built that way so to me that was always my focus was rebuilding that I've worked with good Indian Affairs ministers bad Indian Affairs ministers and different Indian Affairs ministers. I was very impressed working with Jane Philpott. Her and I didn't get along at first. It was gonna be the easy way or the hard way but I was really impressed she began to understand it and things are starting to change. They're changing dramatically and that's that's one of the positive messages I want to give out

is that within our primary relationship in Canada is between the settlers and indigenous. It's been a really toxic relationship. But 150 years from now, it'll still be the primary relationship. And things are changing. They're just not changing fast enough. And we have to change them faster. So that if I was the minister, there's

a bunch of stuff I would have done on that file. But being able to push ministers to do it that that's been a great honor Let's see if I can get you to kind of look at the other side of the coin, which is Was there a moment in your time at Parliament? That you'd like to have back because you're not proud of it in hindsight That's a really good question. I think you should never take a dive on a vote. And politicians do take dives sometimes

because of political pressure. I think one dive I did was an act on accountability in Canada's mining sector on the international front. And I represent mining communities. I represent hard rock miners. And I was receiving a lot of pressure at the time and I missed that vote. You didn't show up for the vote.

Well I had heard that a whole bunch of liberals were going to miss the vote because they didn't want to upset the industry and I thought you should never ever dive on a vote. Even if it's hard it's better to go back. You know I voted to change my position on the gun registry. I got a lot of anger. But I went back to the communities, and I spoke to them why I changed my vote. And I was proud that I did that. You changed it from what to what?

Well, I was, people were so frustrated with the gun registry when it came out. It was such a schlommazel, it didn't work. But at the end of the day, we had all these records, and Stephen Harper was going to burn them all and it just seemed that seemed like a stupid idea after we spent a billion plus dollars on them and they were using the records not to track criminals and everything but in areas of domestic dispute they needed to know if there

were four or five guns that's what the police said that's why they wanted to registry the police told me that I asked them and they said yeah It's that fifth gun if we don't know it's there That's what's gonna kill that woman and so I changed my vote and and a lot of people at the time were angry They were like we sent you down to stand up to Ottawa and you came back Defending Ottawa and I said no it just is not a good policy to burn that kind of information if it's about keeping people safe so but if you're gonna do something like that you've got to go back to your people and get yelled at. Get yelled at, but they kept sending you back, so obviously most people were okay with it.

And I think people feel better when they can express their frustration. How about your, I wonder if this comes under the category of some things I'd like to have back again. Your conduct on social media, what do you think of that? Yeah, whatever. Let me give you an example here. I'm going to get the director here, Sheldon Osmond, to bring this up.

This is you tweeting at Pierre Pauliev, not too long ago. And here's what you said. Listen, asshat, your lies about Remembrance Day were juvenile. Don't double down. How about you just shut it for 24 hours? Show some respect for people who take November 11 seriously. By the way, let us know when you've passed a security clearance for the good of the country.

You want to give us the background behind that? Well, I actually, I'm glad you picked that one. I thought that was, did I call him an asshat? You did call him an asshat? You did call him an asshat. He caught up and he was using Remembrance Day claiming that prayers were being outlawed at Remembrance Day services. Really trying to stoke these religious divisions. And I was deeply appalled by that because we have to really take on this sort of rage baiting and politics of division but to use Remembrance Day when everyone who goes to the Cenotaph knows there's gonna be there's gonna be a minister there's gonna be a priest there's gonna be a rabbi doing prayers it's part of it so why would a leader of an opposite of

the her majesty's opposition lie on Remembrance Day to me that was appalling and it fits in what I actually think of Mr. Polly in general. And he doesn't have a security clearance. So yeah, I'd say that's a pretty straightforward, straight up question. Here's where I kind of get on my civility hobby horse. And I say, OK, fair point. But you really want to call him an asshat?

I mean, that's not very parliamentary, Charlie. Well, as Bob Marley would say, if the cap fits, let them wear it. So, no, I mean, I think one of the problems with... We have a false civility in Parliament right now, where there's some... I'm very, very worried about where we're going as a nation, and I'm very worried about the kind of viciousness. And I think Mr. Poliev is responsible for some of it.

And I felt sometimes that you have to take a harder line to call that out. But you're right. My mom first washed my mouth out with soap when I was five years old. So I've been challenged in the past by this. Yeah. You mentioned last year that it was in your intention

to stand down when this current parliamentary session ended or when this parliament's life was over. You said it was time to pass on the baton. How come? Well, I think when I went to parliament, I made a decision to always remember that the people of Tim and James Bay sent me there.

And one day I would return to Tim and James Bay. It's been a real honor. And it's a hard decision. But in the next election, they've changed my boundaries significantly. My riding is bigger than the United Kingdom. I fly into many communities in bush planes because there's no roads. I've traveled by freighter canoe.

I've had to fly by helicopter to cross rivers during breakup. And they added an extra 20,000 square kilometers to my region because I guess our region is somehow overrepresented in Parliament. Many, about a dozen more communities. And I realized I can't physically take all that on because I can't do politics long distance. I have to be in these communities. I have to be at their events.

I have to be at their weddings. Mostly their funerals and region events. And so to take all that on would not allow me to do some of the things that I think are really important to do now. So to be able to go out on my own terms and to be able to pass the baton to a new candidate, I feel that that's as good as it gets in politics. When Jagmeet Singh won the leadership of the NDP, who came second? I came second.

Okay, so we're gonna revisit this now. Do you think the NDP would be in the same shape it's in today, had you won? Well, I had a vision for the New Democratic Party that I felt was really important. I felt that as a social democratic party, you have to be rooted in the grassroots. We came from a party that was really built on our writing associations and our local organizations and our local chapters who've met and debated and volunteered and you know the way politics has moved is much more leader driven leader image our our grassroots seems less important and that to me was really important but I wasn't chosen I did come in second so second-guess guessing what I would have done or where we would be is something maybe on

our third glass of scotch on a Friday night we would talk about, but I'm certainly not going to revisit it because I wasn't chosen. Well, you did say when a party believes that better Instagram tricks or gala planning is the path to success, we lose touch. Did I say that? You did, and I presume you still believe it. I absolutely do. So I mean, I'm inferring from that,

that you think that Mr. Singh is a little more focused on his suits and his wristwatches and not enough on grassroots politics. Fair assumption? I think when I was running against Jagmeet, and I have enormous respect for him. I love his energy. I love his optimism.

But I am rooted in this notion that you have to be really in with the grassroots. You have to build from the grassroots. If you're a social democratic party, it's different for liberals and conservatives. They can do the big wash. We don't get that. We have to build it at the base. So I was very committed to that. And in my time, and I think people in the party will agree that I've always tried to be a positive member of caucus, but to remind people Why are we doing this?

What what's our objective at the end of the day? And if our objective at the end of the day is to build a Notion of politics that people can believe in then I I'm still very much rooted in the grassroots Here's what you said when you were running for the leadership and Sheldon. I'll ask you to bring this up We are you said a party of dreamers. We're a party of doers. Sometimes we butt up against each other, but we need the dreamers, we need the people who say let's dream big, and then we say,

how do we do it practically? I think I have a foot in both camps, and I think that's what Jack Laitin offered. He brought the dreamers together with the doers, and that's what we're going to do. Where is your party today on this Dreamers versus Doers continuum? It is the continual fight within the New Democratic Party.

I mean, we are a party of people who see big vision. And we have others who are very like, well, how does it work for Mrs. Jones when she goes to the grocery store? And I think that that tension is an work for for Mrs. Jones when she goes to the grocery store and and I think that that tension is an important tension in politics so it's it's a it's a moving thing you know like look at this past Parliament we managed to get a national dental care program in place I remember in door knocking in 2019 and 2021 and housing projects and Timmins where like answering the door

you know mother and her kids and she's holding her hand in front of her face because she didn't want me to see her broken teeth and she said why should I vote what would you guys ever do and and I said we're gonna get you national dental care and we came in to push the national dental care program and we got laughed out of Parliament we literally got laughed out because I mean Mr. Trudeauudeau, with respect to him, wasn't going to do it. The liberals weren't going to do it. The conservatives thought it was communism. But we got it.

So we went from this big promise to actually doing it. And that, to me, is the real great thing about being able to take vision and making it a reality. And I can go back to people who were never able to get their teeth. I mean, we think it's a little thing it's not a little thing when you're living in constant pain in your mouth. The dental care program to me was one of the great one of the great things that I've been involved in. Then I got to ask the

follow-up question which is we've had 44 elections in Canadian history. The NDP has never won. You've come second once. Most of the time, 80 to 85% of Canadians vote against you. What is it about, I mean, I assume, I mean, look at, you and I probably both come from the place that believes the public is never wrong. So what is it about your party that it just seems not to be an option for the vast majority of Canadians

basically all the time? Well, I mean provincially across Canada we form governments and continue to form governments. We have a great record. We've had great record of leaders from, you know, John Horgan, who we've just passed away, Ed Broadbent. You ask Canadians who the great Canadians are, they're gonna mention Ed Broadbent. They're gonna mention Tommy Douglas. They're gonna mention Jack Layton. They're gonna mention, who are the great premiers right now, they're gonna mention Wab Kanu. So these are New Democrats. I think, and this is again that the tension we've had. I, when I ran in the leadership, I said I don't want to be the conscience of Parliament. I'm

tired of being a conscience. I want to go for change. There are people who are uncomfortable in the party about the compromises and the hard work. Because politics isn't pure. It's hard. It's hard work. And I think there's always that tension in our party. But as for electability, well, I mean, I don't know.

I was elected seven or eight times in a row. People believed that I was going to represent them. And I represented them. I've got colleagues who've been elected more times than me. So New Democrats, you can keep pushing us down. We keep getting back up. But I do think it is about that offer to Canadians, that vision and the practicality.

That's what we need to get our act together. And I think Jack was there and died just as it was starting to happen. And to me, that was my greatest regret in politics, was losing Jack. He may inspire me to run. I think he inspired Canadians. Given that you're leaving now, I guess I should ask you about Mr. Trudeau's departure, because he's leaving now too. What do you think about the way he did it?

I'm very, very concerned about the state of Canada at this point. We're facing an existential threat, an unprecedented threat. I think our democracy is undermined in a way that I've never seen it before. I mean, Parliament at times has been dumb, it's been silly, it's occasionally risen to really profound moments. But there's a level of viciousness as people chase the rage algorithms, which I think is going to destroy democracy. I think it was very unfortunate that Madame Freeland kind of blew up a ship on when he was supposed to be getting

this mini budget. I don't know if I would agree with the budget or not, but we now have a power vacuum in Ottawa as we are being threatened in an unprecedented way. So I think the Prime Minister had to resign because he couldn't get support in his own caucus. But I will say that I thank him for his his leadership. I mean thank him for serving our country. Now what you just said is nothing I've heard from any other opposition MP on the Hill, particularly your own leader, who when it was asked for his first comments,

went right for the jugular as opposed to saying anything somewhat classy. Why is it like that? Well, I think, again, we're getting to this level of meanness. And I'm not afraid of meanness. I mean, I open for the dead Kennedys it's like, I'm not afraid of meanness. I mean, I open for the dead Kennedys. You know, I'm not afraid of a scrap.

But I think recognizing that in Parliament, we are there for something more. And I'm not going to judge anybody else's comments. But when I was asked by the local media, that's exactly what I said. I said, I thank the prime minister for his service to our country, because I do. I don't think he deserved the horrific death threats

and the viciousness and the attacks on his family. But I think he led us into a dead end. I mean, the last year in parliament has been pretty much dysfunctional. We haven't had anything able to get done over the last three months. We've been absolutely, Pierre Pauli has shut everything down. So we're in a crisis moment and we need leadership and we don't have that at the

federal level. That's what worries me. Your federal leader has said, as soon as I get the first opportunity to bring down this government, I'm going to. You have said, not so fast. What's going to happen? Well, I was concerned when, again, the conservatives said, OK, well, we will force an election with procedural games. I'm not going to bring our government down on procedural games at this time. I think it's irresponsible. If there is no confidence in the Liberal government coming back then obviously the House falls. But I

will accept the House falling on a straight-up confidence motion. I just don't, I'm tired. I think these procedural games are letting us down at this time. So. But on a strict confidence vote, are you voting thumbs down on the current government? Well, I would like to think that we could rise at this time to do something more. But I don't know if that's possible. So if it's not possible, then we're

going to vote the government down. Do you have other colleagues in your caucus who are prepared to stave off execution for now? I'm not saying what's going on in my caucus. No, no, no, no, no, no. Oh, you can if you want. I don't, I've stated my position to the party and I'm a new Democrat. If the new Democrats are going to vote the government down, then that's what's going to happen.

I believe I've reached out, I guess I've said publicly multiple times, we're in a moment of crisis here and I think we all have to rise up to something, a bigger vision. But you know when I watch the media it's all about the high school drama and the liberals and they're all who's jockeying for position. We see Daniel Smith out there saying, well cut a deal for Alberta. We see Doug Ford saying, well we'll do this. Come on people, as Doug Ford would say, come on people. do this. Come on people, as Doug Ford would say, come on people. Like we are in an existential crisis and I wish at this point Parliament was sitting but it's not. Let me ask you one last question and it's going to follow up on something you said a moment ago where you pointed out you opened for the dead Kennedys. I mean you were a pretty

hard driving punk rocker back in the day. What's a harder way to make a living? Member of Parliament or the music business? Well, you know, it's funny, punk rock taught me a lot about politics. Someone said, oh my God, the House of Commons must be just terrible with all that heckling. It's like, I had a bottle thrown at my head when I was 17 in a biker bar in Waterloo, right?

Like, so that doesn't bother me. That don't impress me much. That don't impress me much. That don't impress me much. To quote somebody else from Timmons. Yeah, exactly. My Shania. But what I learned, if you're going to be a musician, is it's DIY.

You have to have your act together. You have to be willing to work hard. And I joke with my staff. I said, I don't need three great guitar players. I need six people who can sit in the van for a thousand kilometers and not kill each other and come out and be stronger at the other end. So I brought a lot of those musical lessons, the lessons of being a high school dropout touring biker bars and punk bars with six other guys and roadies.

And it was, to me, it was an amazing lesson in life. And it was about being authentic. You can't get up on stage and be a fake. And to me, that's the same thing in politics. People can tell a fake as soon as they start to speak. And I never wanted to be a fake. And I will end that on what my wife said to me when I ran. Because she's way more hardcore than me.

She said, if you ever come home sounding like a politician, I will suffocate you. And she said, I'll get a pill and just do it nice I said would you keep that promise so a few years ago I said to her so remember that have I started to sound like a politician she said there was a while where you're starting to get a little close to the edge but then you pull back so she said you're okay I will infer from the fact that you're still alive that your wife thinks that you have not been a complete sellout. Exactly.

Good for you. Good for you. You've got a new book coming out called Dangerous Memory, coming of age in the decade of greed. We're going to get you back on this program to talk about that book. And in the meantime, thank you, Charlie Angus, for coming into TVO tonight.

Well, thanks so much for having me.