The Agenda with Steve Paikin (Audio) - David Warner: A Political Roller Coaster Ride

Episode Date: March 15, 2025

David Warner went through many wins and losses in his time in politics. He was also the first to be elected as speaker of the provincial legislature. He talks about all of this and more in his new book, "Against the Odds: The Life and Times of an Accidental Politician."See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Renew your 2.0 TVO with more thought-provoking documentaries, insightful current affairs coverage, and fun programs and learning experiences for kids. Regular contributions from people like you help us make a difference in the lives of Ontarians of all ages. Visit tvo.me slash 2025 donate to renew your support or make a first-time donation and continue to discover your 2-point TBO. He was the first member of the Ontario legislature ever elected by his colleagues to be the speaker. When he ran for office, he lost and lost again, then won, then won again, then lost, then won, then lost, then won, then lost, then won, then lost,

and left politics. Talk about a roller coaster ride. Well, in fact, David Warner does talk about it and more. In his new memoir, it's called Against the Odds, the life and times of an accidental politician, and we're pleased to welcome that accidental politician, David Warner, to our studio. Great to see you again.

It's good to be here. Let's go through the bit of the story of your life here, because I want to start by having you tell us about a grade 10 student who organized a boycott of the school cafeteria when they raised the price of French fries by a nickel. Who was that guy? Well, that was me.

I led the French fry rebellion. And did you actually manage to get all the students to boycott the cafeteria? Yeah. You did. Yeah, I did. And they complied. I said the next day, no one buy anything and they did and guess what? The following day the price went back down and they were back, the fries were back on the plate instead of in a cone. So success. Success.

My first plate, I didn't know it at the time. I really didn't. I was a young kid having fun. But that was a springboard as well for me. Because then I ran for the student's council in order to get the dances back. And I not only got them back, but I got to be the DJ. I was a DJ for three years.

So you got a bit of a political bug from an early age then. Yes, yeah. OK, your formal political involvement started in the mid-1960s. What drew you in at that point? That's interesting. From campus politics at Carleton, and Carleton was always a hotbed for issues, you know. I guess being in the nation's capital, and there were always protests about one thing

or another. There's certainly protests about wars and so on. And I took an interest in it. Never signed up and never joined a party. But when we were married and we moved to the West End of Toronto and there was a by-election on, and I thought, I think I might like to help. And I wandered into a headquarters, an NDP

headquarters. Well, that was going to be my next question. How did you know you were a New Democrat versus a liberal versus a Tory versus whatever? Good question. I was, my feeling was that New Democrats, more than the others, were interested in social issues and were fighters for that. And I guess it was the fighter in me that these are important issues and they

affect ordinary people. And then of course people like Tommy Douglas, had an impact on me and as did David Lewis. Tommy, in particular, an incredible gifted orator, and that certainly helped. You were a teacher. You decided to run for the two federal elections in the early 1970s. You lost them both.

Then you run in 75 in Scarborough for Queens Park, and you win. And I want to know what it was like walking up the front steps of that building, which I think is the most beautiful building in the province for the first time. It was awesome. It really was breathtaking. And I can't, and this is an absolute, 100% truth. I wasn't in that building more than an hour or two. And I just fell in love with the building,

the architecture, the atmosphere, the art, the beautiful art. So when I lost in 81, one of the things that drew me back was the building itself. I want to be back there. And the chamber. You know, there was an atmosphere in the chamber. And I loved debates.

And that was so during the first few years when I was there, any time there was, say, Bill Davis was going to make a speech or Dasha McHugh, Stephen Lewis, James, Bill Bobrick, I wanted to be in the chamber to hear them. You know, it was, the debates were exciting. So it was all part of that atmosphere. I loved it and I wanted to be back there. You got yourself a bit of a reputation for being a scrapper. And I want to ask you about an incident

where the progressive conservative government's minister of colleges and universities at the time was a guy named Harry Parrott, who apparently marched right across the floor of the legislature, stood in front of you, and invited you to step outside and have a fight about something. What was that all about? Yeah, he actually went around behind the speaker's chair. I was not sitting

in my regular seat. I was over in the liberal section chatting with somebody but in the back row. He came around, he looked up at me, you know, how are you have to reach in six foot something and I'm just a little guy, and he's motioning for me to come outside. I'm looking at the speaker and thinking, he can protect me. I am not leaving this chamber. Well, what did you say to tick him off so much? I don't know.

I really don't know. But I got under his skin. And I felt bad later, you know, I felt badly about it because Dr. Harry Parr was a really decent man who was 100% trying to Make the colleges and universities the best that they could be he was dedicated to his job and and just a terrific guy and I felt felt badly and I Did what I did. Bad enough to mention it in the book, yeah.

Now you were also known as being one of the worst hecklers in the house and in fact there was a kind of a, well you did this all the time. Whenever a minister would get up to speak and you didn't happen to like that person, you used to scream resign at them. And in fact apparently they used to have a pool betting how quickly it would take for you to scream resign across the floor.

Why'd you do that? I didn't initiate the pool. I had no idea. To be honest about it, it was just a fun thing. I would say always mischievous, but never malicious. And for me, as far as I could see, I was injecting humor at a point where it was maybe too serious, super serious. And I tried for witty remarks.

And I was never meant to belittle anyone. I don't think I ever belittled anyone. And I remember one time, I hadn't been there all that long. And I was all these interjections and so on. Larry Grossman came over to speak to me. Tory cabinet minister of the day? Former cabinet minister. And Larry says, you know you're the second most hated guy on the other side of the aisle.

And I said, oh God, Larry, that's too bad. Who's number one? And then a short while later, two of us are at the Albany Club. Robert Stamfield was in town. And Larry handed me a match book which I still have. He says I've got my name in there you just need six more and you can be nominated to be a member of the Albany Club. Oh yeah you're gonna get right on that. The big Tory hangar in downtown Toronto. Yeah we came full circle at it.

Now for a long time Sunday shopping was one of the most controversial issues down at Queens Park. You were opposed to it. We're now kind of 50 years on from the original Sunday shopping bill. In your view, has it had as negative an effect on society as you feared it would? That's a hard one to measure.

I think it has had a negative effect. hard one to measure. I think it has had a negative effect and you just because family time does not seem to be as readily available as it once was. You can't turn the clock back so it is what it is. But did you think the cities and towns of this province were better when everything was shut down tight as a drama on Sunday? Yeah, well I don't know. I think there you could have had some limited openings and certain sporting events and so on. One of the things that I feel more badly about than the Sunday shopping was a little, I introduced a motion, which was accepted, to make Boxing Day an official holiday. And because if you think about, for most people, they're celebrating Christmas.

They've got Christmas off. And then for some, it was early on the 26th they had to show up for work. Yeah. It's bigger shopping day of the year now. Right? Yeah. And that to me was wrong. And I wasn't alone.

That was an all party. When I introduced it, I got support from all three parties. One of the things I noticed in the book is that when you think someone is a good politician, you always say the same thing about them. You say, they were good listeners. You say they were good listeners. Do we still have good listeners in politics today? Not as many as there should be. And to me it's a mark of leadership that you can

listen. It's a skill, you know, it's a skill you learn or should be learning as a politician because you sometimes hear things you don't want to hear but you know why they're said and you know it maybe gives you an in as to how you can approach a subject. So yeah the ability to listen and that's Bill Davis perfect example of Stephen Lewis I mean you it. Any of the really good premiers, the Builders, Kathleen Nguyen, they were good listeners. You mentioned Bill Davis. We're sitting in a studio named after Bill Davis, so I want to follow up with a question about him. From 1977, in which his government came back with a minority, until 1981, that four

year period was all minority government and you describe it in the book as among the most democratic and collegial times in Ontario political history. Why did that work so well in your view? We trusted each other. I was chief whip them for the New Democrats and the three whips and the three house leaders met. We met once a week, discussed the business of the following week, and we shook hands. Not once in four years did anybody go back on their word.

There was a level of trust. Part of how that happened, we would dine together. We would sit and have a beer and watch a hockey game together. So you got to know each other. We got to know each other. And we trusted each other. And that level of trust has been broken very badly. And not, I will add, not just one party.

I mean, I think you can spread the blame around pretty equally and it's it's so destructive and it does not accomplish a single thing and that that's it's just so foolish to to not trust each other and you get you'll get things done if you trust one another and work with each other and that's not happening. You won twice in a row, but then in 1981 you lost your first election. And here's what you wrote in the book. Sheldon, you want to bring this up? You're right.

I went into the basement where I could vent my frustration by pounding on a wall, trooping over to where my progressive conservative opponent, Alan Robinson, and his supporters were gathered to concede the election and congratulate Alan on his victory was tough. It was however the right thing to do. Civility should always be the bedrock of democracy. How much of that kind of thing still goes on today? Far too little. I mean, there are politicians today who do the right thing, and they are very civil, and they treat each other with respect. But there's a whole bunch that don't.

And that was a tough night. What was worse after that, I came back to our headquarters. And because we were a bellwether riding the media were there and I remember City TV in particular caught my two girls crying. They were just crying their eyes out. Yeah my daughters and that hurt. That hurt me more than the election laws. My kids were so badly hurt. But it didn't last and you came back in 1985.

I did. And in fact, the result of that election was basically a tie. The Liberals and Tories were almost the same number of seats, minority parliament, and your NDP party holds the balance of power. You wanted to form a formal coalition government with the liberals at the time. But not enough other people in your caucus did. How come? The main argument against it was that the Canadian public are not used to it. They don't understand it.

It didn't matter that it's been in vogue in Europe for decades, but the people here wouldn't understand it. And I disagree with that. I think you have to be trailblazers at some point and it would provide stable government. I do think that if the average voter was given a roadmap as to how they could elect a minority government, they'd follow that roadmap. And minority government, from my experience, works. And you get a lot done.

You get four years of stable government. Well, OK, having said that, in 1987, the Liberals had the biggest majority in Ontario history. You lost again. But then three years later, you came back in, majority government for the NDP. Did you see that coming? No, not at all. I was asked, and I put my my application in to be part of a Canadian team of teachers to go to India and work with Indian teachers and a special

project and I said do you think it should be going maybe there'd be an election. That's your wife. My wife yes I said are you kidding no one in their right mind had called an election. There's a year and a half left. So away I trot. And of course, one night I get a phone call at a hotel in India, a small town. And it's for me. And the election's been called. I couldn't believe it. So I come back here.

And sure enough, we're into an election. I understand now why, at least I think, why David Peterson called the election. He saw serious economic storm clouds and let's get ahead of it, you know, and okay I don't follow for that. And then of course, Bob Ray inherits the worst recession since the dirty 30s. Exactly. Now you did not make it into cabinet, Mr. Ray's government. Were you upset about that? No. I wanted to be speaker. And I think it hearkens back to that your earlier question when I first arrived in 75 in a building I fell in love with a building and the whole concept of debating and so on and I was there

three different speakers and I thought this is this is the job I would like and I am so it's the best five years of my life, honestly. Never worked so hard in my life. 80 hours a week. But I loved it because it was an opportunity to do things. And I was my own boss. Do you remember the time you first threw someone out? No. You know, as a matter of fact, Steve, I never threw anyone out.

There were members who found a way to have themselves removed from the chamber. I never threw them out. You wouldn't give them the satisfaction or what? No. I was all patience, you know. And most of the most times a member ends up being asked to leave, they have orchestrated. They're not really angry. You have suggested in the book that if there were more women in public life,

if there was a greater percentage of women as MPPs, there would be less showboating, more collegiality, and people would actually get more things done in a more collaborative atmosphere. Absolutely. Do you really think that's... Yep, absolutely. Do you see evidence of that happening? I saw it all the time when I was speaker. I mean that was the largest, I'm pretty sure I'm accurate about it, the largest number of women ever elected was in 1990 and it was still less than 40% but yeah one or two exceptions but essentially a reasoned debate and the ability to listen and not prone to yelling terrible things across the aisle. Now because Bob Ray wrote the forward to your book, I have to ask you a nasty question about Bob Ray.

That comes with the territory here. What decision by Premier Ray back in 1990 to 95, when you were in the government, which decision of his did you disagree with the most? It wasn't my position to agree or disagree on any of his... No, as Speaker, no. But you were a New Democrat MPP. So what did you not agree with? I can't.

I honestly can't think of any. I'll tell you the truth. I mean, a big item was the social contract. But I understood what he was doing. And he went on TV and explained it to the entire province. Many of them didn't accept it. But he was saying, let's share the pain. And if we do, we'll save 30,000 jobs.

And of course, he did, because the incoming government fired 30,000 people. So I think he misunderstood how the labor movement works. The leadership was on side, but they couldn't sell it to the rank of file. And I'm not sure that Bob really fully understood that. But anyways, I wasn't around for the discussion. But to answer your question, I wasn't around for the discussion so but I to answer your

question I can't think of any decision that I personally was upset with. Okay let me ask you about a decision that you made. Do you speak French? No. And yet you're the guy who got an award from the country of France for improving French language services in the legislature. The equivalent of our order of Canada. So why did you do that? I felt very strongly when I was first, when I became speaker I drew up a list of things they wanted to do and I put that list in my desk and one of them was to improve relations between Ontario and Quebec and I was adamant about it. I wanted to do that and And so I set out.

First thing was to establish a parliamentary association between Ontario and Quebec, which still continues to this day. And a way for us to get to know each other. And the language is an artificial barrier. And I treated it as such. And one of the greatest things I ever complimented, I ever got, I was with Jean Poirier. We were at a liberal MPP from Eastern Ontario.

And we were at a francophone summit, which was being held in Quebec City. And he introduces me to a member of parliament from France. He says, he is not a Francophone, but he is a Francophile. And I thought, wow, you know. And Jean Bourdieu was one of the contestants for the job of speaker. That's right. You beat him. Yeah. And one of the first things I did when I went,

is I went to Jean and I said, look, I would like your help. I want, if there's any lack of signage, proper bilingual signage in the bill, tell me. If there's anything that related to Francophone affairs that I'm doing wrong or not doing and I should, tell me. Because I need your help and we we work together and I so I you know I felt and still feel very strongly about that relationship we are a bilingual nation and I I took lessons I had a tutor I'm

sorry I drove the poor woman crazy with because I was not a good student. But I tried memorizing and so on. And so when I was invited to give a speech on the flora of the National Assembly in Quebec City, I prepared the speech. I practiced. Afterwards, I got introduced to the members of the National Assembly. And the first fellow speaks to me entirely in French. And before I could respond, he sees the look on my face,

and he says, oh, I thought from your speech that you spoke French. No, I'm feeling good that I've memorized it and had the right accent. But no I sadly I'd... Let me okay this is a tricky topic to raise but you have been very involved in your post-political life in the Association of Former Parliamentarians. Yeah. Which was a group that was started in part because one of

the former members of the Ontario legislature was lost to suicide because his post-political life was so desperate for him. How tough in your experience can post-political life be for those who are not ready for the phone to stop ringing, etc.? Yeah, it is, it's very difficult. I was lucky in that the Scarborough Board of Education had told me to my, Director of Education was a staunch conservative. Said to me, you will always have a job here. We're proud of you and your position of responsibility.

Despite that, for a whole year, my mental health was bad. I kept blaming myself for the election loss. And I really beat myself up. The saving grace was the fact that I had a job. There are members who leave and the longer, generally speaking, the longer you're elected, the more difficult it is to get a job when you leave. And for some of the professions, you have to restart a law practice, you have to everything, you restart a medical practice. And remember, if you've been elected for 10 or 15 years, in some

places you're then history. So one former member who has a PhD in chemistry, was elected for 15 years, was unemployed for three years. Who was that? Ted Bouncell, sadly he passed away. He got a job with the Federation of Labor. But you know, his chemistry stuff was out of date because of his time there. Such a common thing.

It's tough. And I don't think anyone can really appreciate it unless you've been there, unless you've walked that walk. Let me ask another bit of a sad question here. Your dad was only 55 years old when he died. How disappointed are you that he never got to see any of your political success? Yes. Yes to that question, but I think even deeper than that was that I learned a lot of lessons

from my dad that I later in my political life made a difference. And I never got, I wasn't, I was too young to really fully appreciate what my dad did for me and to thank him for those life lessons that that he taught me. My mom was around to see me, the unveiling of my portrait. My mom lived to be 105. Wow. So yeah, and she was sharp as a tack. But yeah, I feel badly about that for sure. Let's finish up with a quote from the book. Sheldon, you want to bring this up? Bottom of page four. Because you are not happy with what you see in public life these days.

Here we go. The atmosphere in Canada's legislatures and House of Commons is toxic. Members have become blinded by political partisanship. In sharp contrast is my experience of hands across the aisle instead of fists in the air. Collaboration instead of confrontation. Misinformation and sometimes outright lies have badly obscured the reality that politicians working with citizens play a vital role in creating the substantive elements of civil society. I guess my last question for you

is do you think this can be changed? It can. Yeah, absolutely. What needs to happen? I think those who are elected, and maybe our current challenge with trying to protect our sovereignty against President Trump will help bring our politicians together and realize that there's a bigger goal at this point. And the political squabbles that we have are pretty small compared with the fact that we are literally fighting for our sovereignty. And if we don't cooperate, we can see our country disappear. So maybe this bad news, Donald Trump, will bring our politicians together.

On that ominous note I am happy to remind people your book is called Against the Odds The Life and Times of an Accidental Politician and we're glad it has brought the first elected speaker of the legislature David Warner to our studios. Thanks Mr. Speaker. Thank you it's a delight.