The Agenda with Steve Paikin (Audio) - Decoding the Hidden Meaning of Don Maclean's American Pie

Episode Date: March 25, 2025

It's well known that "American Pie" was written by Don McLean to commemorate the plane crash that killed Buddy Holly, Richie Valens and The Big Bopper on Feb 3, 1959. But what's not as well known is that it's packed with cryptic references to other seminal events in history. Who were the "Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost"? Who was Miss American Pie? What did McLean mean by "Drove my Chevy to the levy but the levy was dry"? Well, a quintet from Prince Edward Island has put that song under the microscope and the result is both a fantastic and fascinating play called "Inside American Pie," which is playing at the CAA Theatre in downtown Toronto. Host Steve Paikin speaks with the show's co-creator Mike Ross, and cast member, Alicia Toner.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Renew your 2.0 TVO with more thought-provoking documentaries, insightful current affairs coverage, and fun programs and learning experiences for kids. Regular contributions from people like you help us make a difference in the lives of Ontarians of all ages. Visit tvo.me slash 2025 donate to renew your support or make a first time donation and continue to discover your 2.0 TBO. If you came of age musically in the 1970s, you could not help but be a fan of a song that just sounded so different from everything else on Top 40 Radio. The chorus was simple, but the verses were so mysterious. Well, a group of Prince Edward Islanders has put that song

under the microscope and the result is both a fantastic and fascinating play called Inside American Pie, which is playing at the CAA Theater in downtown Toronto till the end of the month. Joining us now, having driven their Chevy to the levee, but the levee was dry, let's welcome the show's star and co-creator Mike Ross and another cast member, Alicia Toner.

Great to have you two here. Thank you for having us. I was telling you just before we started here, I went to see the play the other day. I was so inspired and so moved after it was over that I thought I gotta get you guys in here and talk about this thing. Where did the idea for the show come from

in the first place? Well, I mean, it goes all the way back to being 12 years old. And along the while in my life, certain songs, it still happens, have stopped me dead in my tracks. You just go, what is that? And so that happened to me when I was 12. But back then, you didn't have access to music.

Wait a second. This song came out in 1971? Yeah, it did. But you were twi- this song came out in 1971? Yeah, it did, yeah. But you were not 12 in 1971. No, not when it came out, but when I heard it for the first time on the radio, which would have been 1987, if I was 12. And yeah, it stopped me dead in my tracks,

and I got the cassette tape, and I annoyed my parents, because we just listened to it over and over again, and I had to learn every single lyric, and then life went by, and I became a musician that worked in theater and And then yeah, I make these shows we call them docu concerts where we sort of you know do a documentary thing but there's like fulsome music concert performances through all throughout woven it and It was kind of a no-brainer you know I'd always been a fan of the song, and I knew that there was so much to unpack about the details

in the song. And it's very cryptic and mysterious. If I may say, one of the angelic voices in your cast is sitting beside you. That's right. And I want to find out when this song first came. Because I'm going to pull rank on you. I was 11 when this song came out.

So I remember it well when it first came out and blasted onto the musical scene. But you were a long way away from being born, so when did it come into your life? Well, I was born the year Mike heard it for the first time. Oh my god. So, but I was probably around 10 or 11 when I heard it for the first time.

I was actually, Don McLean, I had a Don McLean CD that lived in my CD player and I would play it on loop over and over again. I think American Pie was the first song I ever learned how to badly play on guitar. Why do you think it resonated with you so much? That's a really good question. I think, I mean, I think his lyrics are timeless. I think the themes within it are timeless. It's wild to me that it would resonate with a 10, 11 year old as well as a 60 year old, but it does.

There's something so universal about his writing, with this song specifically, that really resonates with any age, I think. Don McLean's almost 80 years old. You ever met him? Never met him. Does he know about your show? I don't believe so. I don't think he knows.

I don't know that I don't know what he would think of this show, you know? Well, come on, he'd love it. Are you kidding? I would hope so. But you know, we're, you know, like I say on the show, it's, we're interpreting it, right?

And so whether or not we're right or wrong in terms of what he thinks it was, you know, I don't know where he would be at with all that. Well, okay, let's take a step back here because ostensibly, and I guess I got to say, for those who don't know, and how can you not know this song, but anyway, for those who don't know, this is ostensibly, Mike, a song about three rock

and roll stars who had a very tragic flight. Why don't you just fill in the blanks there? That's right. It begins there. It was the plane crash, February 3, 1959. Buddy, Holly, Richie Ballens, and the Big Bopper all perished in a plane crash in Clear Lake, Iowa. And so the story of the song,

from Don McClain's point of view, is everything was good in his world, and he was a happy American, and then this happened, and it changed his life forever. There was something, it was a loss of innocence that something could be taken away that meant so much to him. And the interesting thing about unpacking the song

is that people think that that's what the song is about and it begins there, but that's really like verse one, verse two, but then there's four more verses after that where we kind of unpack in a cryptic way what the 1960s meant to him, to people that were coming of age during that time. And so it's the catalyst for a further exploration of pop culture all through the 1960s,

all the way until the moment he released the song, really. Should we look at you guys at work? I think we should. All right. Sheldon, if you would, let's see some of these two at work. This'll be the day that I die. This'll be the day that I die. If you would, let's see some of these two at work. I'm 11 years old again. It's funny when I heard Alicia said that she's known the song since she was 11, and I remember when we rehearsed the show for the first time

and she sang that verse, I thought to myself, oh, she knows this song. There's like, there's little details in Don McLean's performance of the song that, you know, we're all trying to do our own thing, but you also want to keep the greatness of his performance. And I could hear that she's got a lot of listens in on this song because those little tiny.

I've got my 10,000 hours. Yes, exactly. You do. You do. How many instruments do you play, incidentally? hear that she's got a lot of listens in on this song because those little tiny... Yeah, a lot of, I've got my 10,000 hours. Yes, exactly. You do, you do. How many instruments do you play, incidentally? Well? No, no, at all. Now, you play, well, what I saw at the show, you played them all well.

Well, in the show, I play the guitar, the bass, the violin, and the piano, I suppose, for a moment. I play a few other instruments. I play the drums. I play, you know, in high school growing up, I played the saxophone. But yeah, I mean, I can play a few instruments. I noticed. I did notice.

Now, okay, here's the tightrope I'm trying to walk here, because I don't want to give away all the good lines and all the good stories. Fair enough. But we do want to give people just sort of a hint of what they can expect if they go to see this show. So should we do a few explainers here? Okay.

You know, for five and a half decades, people have been trying to figure out what does Don mean when he's like, what does this line mean and who's this and who, okay. So when Don McLean, Mike, was asked, what do the lyrics mean? What was his response? Well, I think he said something like, do the lyrics mean? Yeah, what was his response? Well, I think he said something like what does it mean? He said it means I never have to work another day in my life

Which is a great answer exactly. Yes, he famously refused to answer questions about it, you know And then recently he answered more but in some ways, you know Once you release a great piece of art into the world, I think it's open to interpretation, even if that's not the same as what the creator had in mind. Like, it takes on its own life, you know? And then you get to have that incredible journey of trying to figure it out for yourself, and that's what the show does.

It's our interpretation of what it is and it's rich and it's poetic and fascinating and when you're somebody like a great artist like Don McLean you can make something that people can keep on digging down through the layers of. And it's more rewarding the longer, the deeper you go. And then if you can deepen that experience with actual musical performances, as we do in the show, then it becomes like a sensory thing that hits you on two levels, right? Like it hits you in your brain, because you're

interpreting poetry, really. And then it also hits you in your heart, because you get this music event that kind of just hits you viscerally without your brain. And those two things are kind of going back and forth. And so it can be pretty satisfying. Yeah. One of the really different things about this song

is that it starts off very slowly. And then it starts to rev it up and rock and roll in the middle. And then it comes full circle and ends very rock and roll in the middle, and then it comes full circle and ends very slowly and very poetically again by the end. You know, when you're growing up, I don't know about you, but I just never heard a song like that before. How about you? Did that resonate?

I think that's probably one of the reasons it hits so hard. I mean, I love songs that, growing up, I would connect to artists that made me cry. And I think that's what I loved about Don McLean is the earnestness in his voice, too. I mean, I was obsessed with the song Vincent. And yeah, I think that's part of what you mean. It's just this kind of roller coaster of emotion

that he takes you on through the entire thing. Is there a lyric in there you love the most? I think it's at the end. The father, son, and the Holy Ghost, they took the last train for the coast. Yeah. And there is some discussion in the song about who the reference to the father, son,

and Holy Ghost might be. Yeah. I got to say, when I was growing up, I always thought it was JFK, RFK, Martin Luther King. Yeah. But there are other interpretations of that as well. What do you think? Well, it could be the Holy Trinity, like Don was a Catholic.

Yeah. You know, it could be, you know, and in the end, I think my interpretation is that it's taken us back to the three that died in the end, I think my interpretation is that it's taken us back to the three that died in the plane crash. You know, like in poetry, parlance, taking a train to the coast, going west, kind of means you're gone forever. You know, so that's a reference to the death of something or someone.

And so, yeah, I think that, you know, but it's really up to the person who's listening, right? That's what's amazing about it. Okay, let's do a few more of these. Drove my Chevy to the Levee, but the Levee was dry. Okay, why a Chevy? Where's the Levee? And what do you mean it's dry? Discuss.

Well, Mike has a great bit about this. Do you want to take that? Because you have a really good interpretation of two avenues. Well, yeah, there's two different things. I mean, it's too long to go into all of it. But there was a Chevrolet commercial in 1953. Dinah Shore, it was a jingle. And she says, drive your Chevrolet along the levee,

and all your problems will go away. So it's kind of like, this is what you need to do to be happy in America. And so Don could be responding to that jingle, which was very popular, and saying, I did what you told me, but when I got to the levy, like you told me to do, the levy was dry. Dry meaning?

Dry meaning empty. Right? So there was a- The promise unfulfilled. I was disappointed by what I found when I followed your instructions on how to achieve the American dream. I like the second one better, though.

The second one is that you carry on to whiskey and rye. And we all say whiskey and rye. I'm giving too much away. A little bit. But that's OK. There's so much in there. You can give a few bobbles out here. OK, so whiskey and rye.

There was a town about 15 minutes away from Don's hometown of New Rochelle, New York, called Rye, New York. And so the New York Rangers actually have their practice facility. That's why I've heard called Rye, New York. And so the New York Rangers actually have their practice facility. That's why I've heard of Rye, New York. Right, right. So it may not even be whiskey and rye. It might be whiskey in rye.

Because there was a bar in Don's hometown of New Rochelle called the Levee. So if the Levee was closed, you might have to go to rye to have your drink. And so you whiskey in, the good old boys drinking whiskey in rye, singing, this will be the day that I die. I never understood that lyric, because it'd

be like saying, you know, good old boys were drinking Coke and Cola. That's right. Like, it just, you wouldn't say that. It doesn't make sense. So drinking whiskey and rye. Yeah. But whiskey in rye.

Now has anybody checked Don's original lyrics to see what they say? Or are there original lyrics to be checked? All I know is that there was an auctioned off verse that never got, that didn't make its way into the song. And that was, I don't know, four or five years ago that this happened. I don't know that there's the handwritten lyrics anywhere. I do know that when you Google the lyrics to American Pie, there are things in it that are questionable. So whoever initially kind of put it out there into the world may have been wrong about a few things.

You know, Lenin and Marx being one of them. They spell Lenin L-E-N-I-N as in Vladimir Lenin, right? But it could be. It could be that, it could be. But I just have trouble with a song that's so specifically about a time and a place. Would we just be talking about Soviet history. So I think that John Lennon makes more sense to me than Vladimir Lennon reading a book

on Marx. John Lennon was, you know, he had anti-capitalist views and was a left-leaning guy and, you know, imagine is kind of a socialist anthem in some ways, right? And so, yeah, I think that it's the eye of the beholder. Alicia, let's get political here. We are in a very fraught time as it relates to our relationship with the United States, and you are singing the quintessentially American song about Miss American Pie. Any pushback on that when you perform this song or anything like that?

Well, there hasn't been. But I think that art rises above all politics. I think that artists are the great connectors in times like this. And I think we don't have a problem with Americans. We have a problem with a few very specific people down there. One guy in particular. One guy in particular. Well, there have a problem with a few very specific people down there.

One guy in particular. One guy in particular. Well, there's a couple. Who else is on the list? Maybe JD's on the list too. Maybe. Yeah. But, you know, I think in these times, the most crucial thing that we can do as artists is come together and lift each other up and cross borders because we don't hate anybody down there. And from what I'm hearing, they don't hate us either. And it's always been throughout history

in these tumultuous times and these cyclical times that we go through, it's always been artists that are the truth tellers, that are calling things out, and that are bringing people together. And so, even though we are singing a song about American pie, even though it's a very quintessential American song, it's a group of Canadians doing it. It was homegrown in Prince Edward Island. And I think that's a beautiful melding of two very different cultures right now of Canada and America.

And if I can jump in, Steve, just to say that it's a song about saying goodbye to an America that you thought you knew. Well, aren't we doing that these days? So it's a pretty timely, it's a very interesting thing to take America that you thought you knew. Well, aren't we doing that these days? Well, so it's a pretty timely, it's a very interesting thing to take apart that song. You know, like you might see in the title that it's a celebration of something American.

And it is, and that it's a great work of art. But it's also like the subject matter. And like all great protest songs, they invite you in, to your point earlier, that he starts the song so slowly and invites you into something. And then the music has such joy. But what it's actually saying is things are changing.

I'm saying goodbye to something. So you're letting go. And so the song is, it's a good time to be taking a look at this song. It's interesting. We are obviously encountering this show for the first time. But this show, it goes back. You started the show during COVID.

What's the story there? Yeah, show, it goes back. You started this show during COVID. What's the story there? Yeah, yeah, it goes back even further. We did a cabaret version of it at the Soul Pepper Theater Company in 2015 where it was just more of a casual, sort of throwing down of what things might, and then Sarah Wilson and I, who's my co-creator, we wrote a fulsome version of the show.

You know Sarah very well? Yeah, Sarah's, yeah, she's my writing show. You know Sarah very well? Yeah. Sarah's, yeah, she's my writing partner. We've been making shows together forever. And yeah, so she and I made this version called Inside American Pie during COVID at this little music hall that we bought in Prince Edward Island. And we had to make a small show because we

were capped at 50 people. And so we got to work on trying to make something that would make people feel good, that would be nostalgic. Because that's what people were looking for during that time. And we kind of had no idea that it would have the life that it has had. Well, how did it get to Toronto? OK, so last summer, there's a gentleman

that vacations in PEI. His name's Derek Sewell. Derek's brother, Brian Sewell, is the executive producer of the Mervish Company. And so Brian was visiting Derek. Derek brought him, dragged him to the show. He saw the show, loved it. That was a Friday, Monday.

We were on a conference call, and they said, we want you to come and play it at one of our theaters. And so it was like, oh my god, okay. That's how showbiz works. It is, it's random, you know? You work so hard in this way, and then it sort of falls into your lap in a different way. Very cool.

Do you have plans for, to get inside another big popular song and continue this format? Because the format really works well. Yeah, yeah, I mean, there's a bunch of ideas on the table. We've made a bunch of different shows over the years that have the same format. We've made one about of different shows over the years that have the same format. We've made one about the Voyager Golden Record, which is the NASA spacecraft that they have fixed a Golden Record album to with Earth's Greatest Hits. We've made a show about that. We've made a show about famous artists. Alicia was in it, that we're all in jail.

And the idea of imprisonment and art. And so, yeah, we've got a bunch of ideas on the table. Alicia and I made a show last summer called Ladies of the Canyon that takes a look at the Laurel Canyon scene in the 1960s and 70s and the rise and fall of that. And people really love that one. So there's lots of ideas on the table

and it's a fun format to work in. And I've been doing it for a while now. So I feel like we've got a good beat on how the machine and it works. Awesome. I think under the fair dealing copyright rules of this country, we're allowed to do 15 seconds of this song. So shall we do it?

Let's do it. Just the chorus? OK. Lead us. All right. Bye. Bye, bye, Miss American Pie. Come on, Alicia.

Drove my Chevy to the levee, but the levee was dry. And good old boys were drinking whiskey and rye, saying this'll be the day that I die. This'll be the day that I die. Okay, that was just the greatest moment in my 43-year journalistic career. Thank you very much for that. You're so welcome.

Mike Ross, Alicia Toner, the song is American Pie. The play is Inside American Pie. It's at the CAA Theater till the end of the month, and I can't thank you two enough for coming in today and helping us out with this. Thanks for having us. Thank you, Steve.