The Agenda with Steve Paikin (Audio) - Does Canada's Refugee System Need an Overhaul?

Episode Date: May 8, 2024

As Canada grapples with an historic influx of asylum claimants, several groups, including the Canadian Council for Refugees, are calling on the government to revamp its refugee system. To explore why, we welcome: Ruby Sahota, Chief Government Whip and Liberal MP for Brampton North; Aadil Mangalji, immigration lawyer and partner at Long Mangalji LLP; amd Anne Woolger, founding director of Matthew House.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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To explore why, we welcome on the line from the nation's capital via Zoom, Ruby Sahota, Chief Government Whip and Liberal Member of Parliament for Brampton North. And with us here in our studio, Adil Mungalji, immigration lawyer and partner at Long Mungalji LLP, and Anne Woolger, founding director of Matthew House. And it's great to have you two, first time, I believe, on the program here in our studio. Ruby Sahota, glad you're there for us in the nation's capital. I just want to start by putting some stats on the record. So I'll ask our director, Sheldon Osmond, to bring up these statistics. This, according to Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada, in the year 2022, Canada received about 60,000 refugee claims. 60,000.

In 2023, about 138,000 refugee claims received. That's nearly a 130% increase from the year before. So, Ruby Sahota, let's start there. What do you think accounts for this big spike? Well, Stephen, we're not immune to the problems that all countries are seeing around the world. The U.S. is facing a migration influx of refugees and so is many European countries. So we are seeing some of that here in Canada as well. But I will say that that number, it lumps together refugees and asylum seekers. They are two different categories, I mean, two different types of people entering the country and a different reason, I would say, for both. Well, that's a good point. And maybe you can make the clarification there for us.

First of all, Matthew House, you provide refugee services to people who need them. Yes. Okay, the two different programs that this country offers. Just make the distinction for us. Yeah, there's basically two different streams by which refugees come to Canada. There's one stream where the government bring them in, they're government-assisted, resettled ones,

and they're either brought directly by the government or private groups can sponsor them. Then the other category are the ones that just arrive at our borders asking for protection. They're called refugee claimants. Some call them asylum seekers. So those are the two mainstreams. And unfortunately, the ones that come at our borders, there is no system in place to welcome and assist them. They're just literally numbered among the homeless. So presumably the first stream you referenced

is the one by which we get the majority of claimants. Is that fair to say? Historically, no. Actually, it's the asylum seekers. Historically have been generally a higher number. Okay. What would you add to that? I would agree. I think it's the second stream that is much higher.

And that's because the world's on fire. The world is on fire. And as Ruby was saying, I think we are just experiencing what is happening all over the world right now. Okay. Adeline, I'm going to put some numbers to you now. And again, Sheldon, if you would, bring up these figures. Again, according to Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada,

go back to 2022, Canada received 4,000 student refugee claims. The next year, Canada received 11,000 student refugee claims. That's almost three times as much as the previous year. Adel, same question. What accounts for the spike? I think before we get into what accounts for it, I think we need to contextualize these numbers because when we look at it, people are, you know, running for the hills, yelling fire. I think, you know, Minister Miller came out saying,

you know, that this was alarming or totally unacceptable. But I was reading, you know, an article by a number of prominent academics and they started to look at these numbers. And, you know, last year was 11,000. You're absolutely correct. But we need to look at that in the context of how many students actually have study permits in Canada, and that's a million. So when we put it percentage-wise, this is 1% of students are actually making these claims. And if you consider the entire, I mean, 11,000 in a population of 40 million, hardly makes it seem like the hordes are coming over the hills.

Exactly. So I think that we shouldn't be crying fire over this just now. Okay. Let's do this quote board here, which speaks to the dangers of alarmist rhetoric. This is from The Conversation. Statistics Canada data indicate that more than 15% of immigrants are deciding to leave Canada within 20 years of immigrating.

More and more international students are contemplating leaving Canada amid declining affordability and diminishing job prospects. However, these realities are often not as interesting or enraging as the alarmist rhetoric adopted by politicians and media. The fact that fraud is rare in Canada's refugee system doesn't sell newspapers or win votes. Declining citizenship rates are not as compelling as tales of international students exploiting loopholes to stay in Canada. Ruby, you want to react to that? Well, first, Stephen, I'm glad that you are approaching this issue from all sides and you're right um there's uh people do feel alarmed right now given the fact that the rhetoric has been as such that on social media and everywhere you turn people are showing

this incredible panic and um i would say yes there's been an increase of international students therefore you are going to see certain increases there's an increase of asylum seekers all around the world so you're going to see that in canada's an increase of asylum seekers all around the world, so you're going to see that in Canada as well. I wanted to say though, what we have seen is also decreases in certain areas, right? So in terms of irregular migrants that we were seeing previously at the borders,

we're seeing less of that because of the new safe third country agreement that we renegotiated with the US. Vice versa, they are going to see less people doing country shopping, going back and forth. safe third country agreement that we've renegotiated with the u.s uh vice versa they are going to see um less people doing country shopping going back and forth and i think that is important to acknowledge um but yes there is some reverse migration as they're calling it uh but i don't think those numbers are are very high and in fact in terms of the amount of people that we're seeing really want to make canada home um i think you're seeing that in terms of the amount of people that we're seeing really want to make Canada home,

I think you're seeing that in some of these asylum claims. And so I would say still Canada is a place that is really sought after, and many people around the world are wanting to enter here, whether it's through our economic programs, which in fact is the largest part of our immigration program. It really is economic immigrants, and that's the majority. And so I know we're talking a lot about asylum these days. The numbers have increased, but we are, as a government, putting in place measures to make sure that we protect the integrity of our system and that we make sure all processes are fair but also compassionate.

Anne wants to weigh in as well. Well, I just wanted to add that those that come as refugee claimants, I'm sure if one studied the statistics, the numbers that would go on to become citizens would be extremely high. Refugees are grateful to be in Canada and grateful to have the protection of Canada. The Liberal Party, I'm not going to put this one to Ruby because it's too easy a layup, so I'm going to go to Adel with this one. The Liberal Party has traditionally been the sort of pro-immigration, pro-refugee, pro-asylum seeker party and has, if you want to say,

erred to the extent it has erred politically. It was always on the more generous as opposed to less generous side. And yet I want to put those comments that the minister, Mark Miller, put on the record not too long ago when he said that the asylum claims from international students were alarming and totally unacceptable. What did you make of that? Yeah, I was actually really disappointed in that commentary.

I think it was fear-mongering a little bit. And I think we need to look back. So I want to take a time machine back a little bit. In 2018, we have essentially one of the first things that the Ford government did when it came into power, as we remember, is it stopped funding to universities and it created a freeze on tuition. And essentially it told universities and colleges

to start to get creative about how they brought people here so the solution was to bring students in and both the federal government and the provincial government started programs went overseas asked all of these students to come here and the golden ticket that was waived in front of all of these students was PR in Canada eventually and then I think five years later, essentially students are being scapegoated for the housing crisis. Students are being scapegoated for now making refugee claims. And when they brought all these students here, nobody took the time to say, where are they going to live? What are they going to do at the end of their studies? And I think that this was a fall from government planning,

and students are now scapegoated over it. Ruby, I should give you a chance to comment on this. Do you think those comments were ill-advised? Shall we put it that way? Look, Minister Miller always speaks, I think, authentically, genuinely. We are hearing these concerns from Canadians. However, I agree with some of the panelists authentically, genuinely. We are hearing these concerns from Canadians. However, I agree with some of the panelists talking about how those that are asylum seekers

also end up becoming great Canadians at the end of the day and wanting to take on citizenship. And I also agree that we need to find a good pathway for many students because they have come here, they've studied hard they've contributed worked well while studying and you know have gained a lot of valuable experience and we have created different category-based pathways for them to become canadians that's

the whole point of the system but what had happened in some short few years is what we saw happened in some short few years is what we saw, especially in the province of Ontario, is that the province had authorized more and more schools to enter into these private-public partnerships. The volumes and numbers grew beyond, I think, what was imaginable originally and escalated quite quickly. We want to make sure that these programs are fair for students, that they have good professors to be able to provide them quality education. That is what Canada should be known for. And quite frankly, in the last couple of years, that's not what I'm hearing in my region, especially. We're hearing numbers of upwards of 70 different private schools that have been opened up. And if you drive around the city, you don't even know where they are. So I think they tend to be in strip malls, which kind of

masks the fact that they are there. But but and I'll put this to you. I mean, obviously, there are reasonable questions to be asked about any government program. And some people are asking reasonable questions right now. And then others are scapegoating. What do you think more of is going on here? Well, I guess it depends on who's speaking. I am hoping that there, certainly on this topic, there does seem to be some scapegoating. But I think people have to remember that it's a protection issue, first of all. There are students that need protection as refugees in in that way just be explicit there protection from what from persecution in their homelands by whom it could be state agents it could be other agents it all depends i mean uganda is a prime example right now they just brought in horrible laws against LGBTQ community, it could be death penalty for some. So if a student

is from there and, you know, they may not want to go home right now if they're in the LGBT community. Yeah, forgive me. Adel, there's, look, there's fraud in everything, and I'm sure there's fraud in this as well, but you know the system well. What percentage of claimants do you think are making fraudulent claims? Very, very, very few. I think we always look at the numbers of people coming and that's what creates all these firestorms. But what I think we should actually be looking at is the number of people that are accepted. And if we're looking at acceptance rates of refugees right now, last year it was at 79%. That even increases after we go through the RAD process. So we're looking almost, after they've gone through the entire refugee process, you're looking at almost

an 85% acceptance rate. And it is a hard process to get through. Well, okay, let me look at, I don't know, you know this better than I do, but let me do my job here and just sort of challenge that a little bit. There are people who try to get into this country whose French language skills maybe aren't what they ought to be. And if they could be better, they could enter a stream which favors that, as opposed to trying other avenues such as asylum seeking. Do you think there are people

who are trying to sort of come through the back door on the French side as opposed to the asylum side? I don't think that that's fraudulent. When you have two ways of being able to get into the country, essentially, people come to immigration lawyers and say, what can happen? I think Anne's example was great. If there is a student who is queer and is from Uganda, they'll come to us and we'll either look at the economic side or we'll look at the refugee side for them. We used to always go economic side.

That used to be the way to do it. But the express entry system has stopped giving students that promise of getting permanent residency. It's become harder and harder. And so in more instances, we do have to look at the refugee side because that path to permanent residency, for many policy reasons, one that you mentioned,

you know, the favoritism of French, I think was a big mistake. That's kind of ruined the express entry system for a lot of students. Let me ask Ruby about that express entry system. If you haven't got French, maybe you'll try asylum seeking. Is there much of that going on? I actually have met lots of students from the Brampton area, international

students that are learning French. So there is French language speaking communities that are needing immigration. So I think it is a good way for us to be able to attract people to quebec however or or in our french minority communities across the country there's rural pilot programs there's a whole bunch of different things that we have offered and french is not the only way so i don't want anyone watching this today to think that that is you know it's either that or asylum no there are lots of programs and health care in the trades and so many others that we are seeking a couple of years ago we put it out on you know on the website all the different categories of jobs that that Canada needs right now that Canada has labor

shortages in and so that students can really take a look at that even before maybe entering into their studies and making sure if they do want to live in Canada that they're targeting those types of programs where Canada has a shortage I think that's really important I think that's what Canadians have been asking for they've been asking for some type of coordination to be happening with immigration and our labour market and more coordination with the federal government and the provinces. So Minister Miller this Friday is meeting with his provincial counterparts to figure out how we can make our programs more seamless and more integrated.

Adel wants in. I think I want to talk about what's happened to the express entry system because I think it's important for viewers to understand that. So the express entry system is the economic system in Canada. And essentially, everybody who qualifies gets a number of points. And you get points for your age, your education, your foreign work experience, Canadian work experience, all of that. Whether you're a Leaf fan.

So essentially, what the government did and what it changed. So pre-pandemic, it was very, very, very predictable for students. Essentially, what happened is every two weeks, there was a draw, 2,000 people. The top, the cream of the crop was picked. And you had about 470 points made you competitive. of the crop was picked, and you had about 470 points made you competitive. Post-pandemic, there's been a number of changes which has taken away that predictability for students. And I think two of those are the ones that we talked about. Ruby talked about the occupation specific draws. So essentially, the government targeted certain occupations. And although this

seems like a great idea, in reality, government, especially immigration, is too slow to deal with occupational demand hazards. You know, I remember when this first got released in July, they were picking a lot of individuals that worked in the tech industry. And at the same time on the news, I was seeing layoffs happening all over the tech industry. And so by the time the program actually came, we were responding to last year's labor needs.

The second thing that happened was they prioritized French, people who speak French. And essentially that's taken up one third of the spot so far this year. so far this year. And I don't think the government's bilingualism programming should come at a concern to students that are trying to stay in Canada. Idle, that is a political reality of Canada, though. If you want to stay in power, you've got to be popular in Quebec.

100%, but these are for people who will not be working in Quebec. So it is interesting. It's bilingual. Everybody who's coming here, most of the programs are designed for individuals who speak French that will be working outside of Quebec.

And the reality, I've brought in many people on this, is that they start work and they don't speak French anymore because they're in English-speaking populations. I think the best way to do it is the old-fashioned way, start French immersion programs outside, but don't use immigration to do that work. I'd like to have a bit of discussion here about, you know, this is a funny country, right? Most things that get done in this country are because different orders of government

have to cooperate with each other because there's so much shared jurisdiction on things, and this is one of them. And, you know, the feds have got some responsibilities here, but the provinces, as Ruby indicated earlier, they've got some responsibilities here as well. And I wonder whether that has enabled, and why don't you go first on this, has that enabled all the different governments

to kind of blame each other, and therefore nothing gets done? Yes, I would say I believe it has. I think last summer was a prime example when there were the people sleeping on the streets in Toronto and different levels of government were blaming each other, saying, it's your responsibility, it's yours. However, I am feeling hopeful

that perhaps it has woken different levels of government up. And I'm actually quite encouraged about the recent budget, the federal budget that's come through. I feel that I've been working now 35 years with refugee claimants, asylum seekers in Toronto. And I would say I'm the most encouraged I've ever been to see that the different levels are waking up, particularly the federal government, recognizing that it's not just the municipalities that have to

take the responsibility of assisting and welcoming, particularly refugee claimants. They say all the time the property tax base was not meant to pay for services for refugees. It just can't do it. So that's where the feds come in. And then there's a provincial role as well. Ruby, I don't know. I mean, I'm not accusing you of anything here, but you did point out where the province was sort of culpable in its part of this story.

But do these shared jurisdictional situations allow all of you people to sort of blame each other and escape responsibility? Just like I said, Minister Miller is meeting with his provincial counterparts this Friday. We're trying to work together to come up with solutions. Like you've heard, the budget has proposed another $1.1 billion to make the housing program for asylum seekers a more permanent one than an interim measure at this point. Olivia Chow has said that the housing needs have been met. Her financial asks, we delivered $240 million of funds to Toronto. We've done similar things with the region of Peel as well,

$7 million for a new reception center center so the federal government is recognizing its responsibility and has completely stepped up to try to to help and make sure that asylum seekers are not on the streets nobody should be on the streets in canada and i think all canadians would agree with that but what was planned programming uh generally speaking before it was the refugee part where uh we were talking about how those are planned for through the unhcr and we know who's arriving through the government assisted programs all of them are you know go through a process before coming here and those ref those refugees have always been supported and assisted. What we're seeing once again is going back to the fact that we have this global problem of an influx of asylum seekers now landing at our ports.

And that was not something that was predictable or foreseeable necessarily. So we are ramping up and figuring out ways we can work together to manage this issue, which we hope, you know, is a temporary one, but it's one that is at our doorsteps and we're stepping up to do something about it. Adel, let me get your view on that, because in fact, in the most recent federal budget, there's almost three quarters of a billion dollars in there over five years to speed up these claims and work on the backlogs. Again, you know the system. How much will that in fact do

you know i think it can do a lot if it's used properly in all of those cases i think the the one thing i think everybody agrees on is getting the irb to move faster i don't think that anybody's in disagreement what does that mean so i think in a lot of ways one of the examples that we always give is there is a way to do expedited claims, which we have been talking about with the IRB for years and years. Immigration Refugee Board. Immigration Refugee Board. Speed up the claims that are easy.

These people don't have to wait a year. If you're a woman in Iran right now, we know the risk. We know that you're a woman. That is an easy claim. You cannot go back to that country. They are all being persecuted. We can get that claim done in, we just did it, in about 10 minutes. You know, those are easy ones.

Let's move those off of the table. And that would speed up the thing. So we really think that a lot of this should be looked at expediting claims and making them, there's ways to make them a lot faster and moving them off of that backlog. At the risk of using an expression that has taken on more popularity lately, is this just bring some common sense to the situation? Absolutely, absolutely.

And in fact, the Canadian Council for Refugees, of which Matthew hosts and how many refugee agencies are members, they have just recently announced a new initiative. We're calling it a campaign and we're calling it Asylum with Dignity. And we're calling on all levels of government to work together to create a national plan that will appropriately welcome and assist and provide appropriate reception and supports for newly arriving refugee claimants.

For too long, it's just been luck of the draw, and they land wherever. And some succeed because they end up in helpful places, and others do not. And so we are calling upon all levels of government to work together and provide asylum with dignity to all claimants. If you want a national coordinated approach to this, how long? You've got to talk to all the stakeholders, right? You've got to do your consultation. How long a process will that take? It shouldn't take long. There are a number of agencies like my own, Matthew House, and other existing refugee claimant programs across Canada. There's at least 35 of us that have been doing this for decades. And we have all the insight that

the government, there are systems set up, but it's never been, the funds have never been designated toward refugee claimants. And so there are systems in place and if we work together we can do this very quickly let me get the federal government representative to speak to that Ruby is that something you think this government could embrace we already are embracing it Stephen I you know I've already talked about reception centers being built close to our largest Airport in the country settlement services do receive federal funding in order to provide these supports. But I don't disagree that the more we can coordinate, the better this

process will become. And the more efficient processing of claims is, the better for everyone. That is exactly why this budget once again puts forward $743 million now to process asylum claimants quicker. And I think that's better for everyone. Really, you don't want asylum claimants to be in the country for long periods, to be getting settled if they're only going to be facing a rejection. So either way, whether it's an approval or a rejection, I believe it's in everyone's best interest to have those things, to have those cases heard quickly. And Ruby, just out of curiosity, what percentage of your work as a member of parliament dealing with the public do you think is wrapped up in these kinds of issues? For my constituency work?

Exactly. Over 90% of my constituency work deals with helping people navigate the immigration system. Wow. Okay. 90%. All right. Adel, come on in here. Your view on this potential of a national coordinated approach and strategy to this issue. I love the idea. I think it's exactly what we're all asking for. I think it does kind of have to be run by the feds, but working with groups that are on the ground who are doing this work already, they know what they're doing. You know, we've always talked about reception centres where somebody can come in and it's a hub. You get all the services you need. You're staying there. Your legal aid is there.

You know, you're getting all the supplies you need. Your schooling is dealt with. It would make everything so much easier for refugees. And I think we have to remember that 85% number because these people are going to become Canadians, as we said. So we might as well have the best welcome to set them up for success right off the bat. We've got a few minutes left here, but Ruby, I know you've got a heart out here. So let me give you the last word and then you can get off to the meeting that you've got to go to. And that is, we've talked about this new welcoming centre in Peel, which is, of course, the region that you represent in Parliament. I know the money's been set aside, but I don't know how long these things take to actually do.

When do you think this thing will be up and running? Well, no, that's a good question. I've been trying to get some answers for that. Unfortunately, I don't have an exact timeline here. But the last I've heard is that they are working on, they have found a space and they're working on rolling it out as quickly as possible. So I'm pushing for it as well. And I hope it is in the coming days. Gotcha. That's Ruby Zahota. She's the Chief Government Whip, the MP for Brampton North. We thank you for joining us on TVO tonight.

And now you can scoot off to your meeting. We really appreciate your time. Thank you. Okay, very good. We've got a few minutes left here just to, I want to get one minute from each of you on the notion that Canada has always had a worldwide, I think, excellent reputation for being a welcoming place for refugees. And I wonder if you think, given all of what we're engaged in right now, whether that reputation is somehow at risk.

What do you say? I would hope that it's not at risk. Having worked for so many years in the field, I've seen it kind of go through blips, and I'm hoping this is a bit of a blip. But certainly from my perspective, there are new programs that we're even initiating where Canadians are taking asylum seekers into their homes right away upon arrival. And there's new, there's still, I believe, a spirit of welcome that is alive and well.

Adil, your view. I agree. I'm a lawyer, so you're going to get a yes, no answer from me. I think, yes, we've had great programs this year. The Ukraine program, the Iran program. Like, we welcomed people that were in need at very desolate times in their lives. And I think those are archetypes that we should continue.

But we've also had misses. The closing of Roxham Road, for example. The STCA. STCA? The Safe Third Country Agreement being renegotiated. I think that those were... Those brought a lot of pain on a lot of refugees that are trying to get here.

Some people call them irregular arrivals. I still call them refugees. And for the first time, we're seeing, you know, families freezing while trying to get to Canada. Those aren't images that we've ever had before. So I think some of the decisions have been great and some, unfortunately, have been misses. And that's the last word.

Adil Mangalji, the immigration lawyer, and Woolgur, founding director, Matthew House Refugee Services Toronto. Really good of both of you to spend so much time with us here on TVO tonight. Thank you. Thank you. Pleasure.

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