The Agenda with Steve Paikin (Audio) - Does Canadian Culture Reflect Candian Identity?

Episode Date: April 4, 2025

Since the U.S. president has been talking about annexing Canada, there's been a surge of pride in Canadian identity. Yet over many years, Canadians have struggled to define their culture as separate from the U.S. since the two are intertwined, especially as it relates to most genres of the arts. What set Canada apart? And do Canadian art and artists need a renaissance? We ask, David Leonard, executive director of the Writers Trust Fund of Canada; Andrew Cash, president and CEO of CIMA; Marsha LEderman, arts journalist; and Tonya Williams, founder of the Reelworld film festival.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Renew your 2.0 TVO with more thought-provoking documentaries, insightful current affairs coverage, and fun programs and learning experiences for kids. Regular contributions from people like you help us make a difference in the lives of Ontarians of all ages. Visit tvo.me slash 2025 donate to renew your support or make a first-time donation and continue to discover your 2-point TBO. Since the US president has been talking about annexing Canada, there's been a surge of pride in Canadian identity. Yet over many years, Canadians have struggled to define their culture as separate from our neighbours to the south.

What sets Canada apart? Are we in need of a Canadian artistic renaissance? Let's ask. In Los Angeles, California, Tanya Williams, she is founder and executive director of the Real World Screen Institute. In Vancouver, British Columbia, Marsha Lederman, columnist and arts journalist

at the Globe and Mail. And here in our studio, David Leonard, executive director of the Writers' Trust of Canada, and Andrew Cash, president and CEO of SEMA, the Canadian Independent Music Association, and more importantly, once upon a time, David's member of parliament. There we go.

You too can shake hands since you used to be MP and constituent. There we go. And to Tonya and Marcia, thanks for joining us in Points Beyond as well. And David, with you here, I want to start with a quote from a piece that you wrote in the Toronto Star not too long ago. Sheldon, bring this up if you would and I will read along for those listening in podcasts.

Much ink has been spilled in the past month about Canadian sovereignty. In an age of tariff wars, retail boycotts, and 51st state, Canadians are concerned that Canadian independence and Canadian identity are under threat. Yet largely absent from these conversations is culture, one of our great exports and a key part of our identity and sovereignty. So we're going to get into that largely absent part of what you referred to just there and we're going to start with the most impossible question in the world to answer, which is, OK,

the Canadian identity that's under threat. What is that anyway? Oh, great. Thanks for an easy one to start. First off, thanks for having culture on this show. I mean, it is underrepresented across culture. It's certainly underrepresented in our elections. It's something that a lot of people aren't talking about.

But identity is story. Culture is story. And so if we have other people telling our stories if we have people who share don't share our experiences who come from different mindsets who are playing with a different deck of cards telling us who we are rather than letting us tell each other who we could be I think there's something lost there and I think you're seeing that right now with what's happening south of the border when someone is telling Canadians maybe here's what you should be. And I think Canadians response is to say well actually we're something

different than that. And that something is not to answer your question on monolith. There are many Canadian identities and for me having a breadth of experience, taking in culture, books, music, film, radio, whatever it happens to be from different perspectives helps me shape my own sense of who I am and who I am in the country called Canada. That is about as good a definition of something impossible to define as I've ever heard. So well done.

Thank you. Well done. And you mentioned film, so let's talk film. And Tanya, I want to go to you on that. If I want to see a Made in Canada film, what constitutes a Made in Canada film? Well, I think you're going to get more than one answer from different people that you speak with. I have, it's interesting I have in this conversation now, actually, because the CRTC

is doing a number of sessions with a lot of people in the screen industry about CanCon. What is Canadian content? For me, I would like more films, television shows showing that it's placed in Canada. That's a big one for me. Of course, we want Canadians working in the content, but right now that is the best marketing tool that we have for our product to go around the world and for people to actually recognize that the location that they're looking at is Canada. And I think that's a big part of our Canadian identity. Just yesterday, I think the Black Screen Office did a summit,

and they had many Black Americans there. And many of the people at the summit were emailing me going, why are Black Americans always so shocked that there are any Black Canadians? Like, why do they think that's bizarre? And it's because they're not actually aware of the. Like why do they think that's bizarre? And it's because they're not actually aware of the content when it goes out

that that's Canada they're watching. And these people are Canadians. And I guess when you say shot in Canada and looking like Canada, you don't mean made to look like an American city, but shot in Canada, right? Exactly, exactly. And I would go as far to say

that I encourage international productions that want to shoot in Canada and say it's Canada, let's embrace them as Canadian content too. Because they are helping get that branding out there. We all know when we see Big Ben, we know that's London. When we see the Sydney Opera House, we know we're in Australia. We need those kind of identity things

happening within our content. Gotcha. Andrew, you heard the reference to CanCon, the Canadian content regulations that have been, well, you tell me, how significant a rationale behind why we have a domestic music industry? Well, I think if you look at countries around the world of similar size, perhaps,

let's say Australia is an example, who don't and haven't had that. And you see what is played on the radio and the affinity that the domestic audience has for domestic artists. You'll see a dramatic change, actually. So I think on balance, it has been a success. But you have to keep in mind that over the last 50 years, On balance, it has been a success. But you have to keep in mind that over the last 50 years,

the goal was to build a Canadian industry for a Canadian audience. In other words, domestic artists for a domestic audience in a time when markets were regulated by borders. But in music, that is no longer the case. And so as referenced with the CRTC consultations that are in process right now, what we're really needing to grapple with here is how do we present as Canadians

in a global market? Not so much, how do we find Canadians to listen to Canadian music because Canadians do listen to Canadian music. So that part of it has been, I'd say, a huge success. Gotcha. Okay, Marcia, if I've asked this question once, I've asked it a hundred times and if I've heard the same answer a hundred times you know I have. You know, what does it mean to be a Canadian? Well, we're not Americans.

So how much of Canadian culture, in your view, is a response to, we're not Americans and we're not American culture? Yeah, I think, you know, for a long time, Canadian culture has been defined in juxtaposition to American culture, as you say. But it's understandable. We have this behemoth to the south of us. And at least I did. I grew up watching their TV shows,

watching their films, which I still do, listening to their music. Although can-con, making content rules for radio did make a huge difference, at least in my coming of age, because I was listening to radio at the time, different now. But I think culture both sort of defines and also reflects an identity.

So yes, I wanna see myself reflected in what I am watching or reading or listening to. So the Tragically Hip would be one example of a very successful, very Canadian band. I felt like they reflected my experience, even though, as someone just said, Canadian culture, I think David, is not a monolith, of course. And we saw that on the Junos, you know, Canadian music is Anne Murray and Michael Buble, but it's also Baby No Money and it's, you know, snotty-nose res kids. So there is a lot to choose from in terms of how to reflect ourselves in our culture.

I don't think I answered that question properly, but I hope you enjoyed the ramble. Well that's what we allow on this program, so you're okay Marcia, no problem. David I want to pick up on your article again in which you say, and here's another quote, in Canada sales of books by Canadian authors represents less than 15% of total book sales. The average income of writers from writing alone is firmly below the poverty line, often reported at less than $10,000 a year. Question, how can this be? Another softball.

Yeah, I mean, like Marcia says, we grow up next to this behemoth. Huge amounts of culture flowing in from the US, from the UK, from around the world. And it's a crowded marketplace. And it's not just a crowded marketplace for books against other books, it's a crowded marketplace for attention. So, you know, Canadian books are competing against other books, sure, but also against Netflix, against this show, against music, against plays, against everything else as well. So in this world where there's this much competition and a lot of media pushing maybe products from bigger markets

it's tough to get market share. So that 15% is still over a billion dollars in terms of industry in this country which is extremely impressive. But writers, it's not an easy road to be a writer. And I think writers are creative entrepreneurs. They have to cobble together a living. And writing is, I'd say, more of a vocation than an occupation for most people in this country. But also, it's a huge contributor to culture. And I want a world where more people can tell stories,

more people can write, and have the money to do so. Because all money really buys you is space and time to write. It's rent, it's food, it's the ability to not have to work four jobs, but maybe work three. Another hard road, Tonya, is the movie business, of course. Do Canadian filmmakers stand a chance against the publicity juggernaut that is just south of us, that inundates our every moment of our day

with different publicity campaigns about the movies they're making? Yeah, not in the way it's set up right now. They do not. Because probably in the US they're making? Yeah, not in the way it's set up right now. They do not. Because probably in the US, in Hollywood in particular, they'll spend about as much in marketing as they spent on the entire production. Marketing is the biggest piece.

And I feel in Canada, that's a very small slice, the marketing. There's just not the money there. So we're going to have to come up with more creative ways to get the message out because the audience isn't, I don't think the audience is not watching Canadian content because they don't think it's good. I think they're not watching because they don't know it's there. They don't know where to find it, they don't know what time it comes on. You know, that becomes a really big problem. You know, but something you said Steve that I just want to jump back to is what

is that Canadian identity? Because if you're a person of color, there is a very big shift in Americans who are Black, Americans who are Asian, Americans who are South Asian, to Canadians that are Black and South Asian. And that, I said in a speech recently, our diversity is what I think we can sell internationally better than even the Americans do. Because when I first got to the States,

I remember people right away asking me, and every time I went into a meeting, where are you from? They knew immediately I was not a Black American. They knew that. And I feel our sensibility in Canada, with Black people, with Indigenous people, with Asian people, would read better internationally. I think they would understand our culture better

in the UK and Australia and other countries more than the American version, their stereotypical roles of what Asian and South Asian and Black people are. So I wanted to go back to that point and go, we definitely have something very positive in our culture about Canadians. We're much more open. We're much more sympathetic.

We're much more into hearing and wanting to embrace other cultures, other ethnicities, everything, than I feel it in America. You know, having lived down here a long time, it is very stereotypical down here and they like to perpetuate that in their content. We are not Americans. Somebody remind Donald. Andrew, you were, we just heard the Juneau Awards reference. I think Marshall referenced it. You went this year, yes? Yeah.

What was the mood in the room like? Well, well first of all, who would have thought it would have been electric, or electrified by a comment by Anne Murray at this point in her career. That kind of is pretty awesome for her. She got a huge ovation. She got a huge ovation and a little bit earlier in the show, the mayor of Vancouver got the opposite of that. Not that you can draw some line there. However,

you know that arena was packed and people from all cross-section of Vancouver and and that's what they rallied behind. I mean it's it's just for those who missed it. The Anne Murray comments got a lot of play about how she needed to live in Canada. She couldn't move to the States because it's just it's such a fundamental part of her. What did the mayor of Vancouver say that did not work as well?

I'm not quite sure what exactly didn't work. But I just think that what we're seeing is generally Canadians wanting, they're wanting to hear from their sort of public figures, both in word and in deed, that they have our backs on this, right? Just generally, I'd say. But I think what I'd like to just underline here is that while we're talking about culture,

you really can't divorce what we're talking about from the economics of culture. And that's what essentially what I think about a lot in my current gig is that you know to the point made already about Canadian films not having the marketing behind behind it. I think there was a period where we were trying to understand how to make music and how to make films, et cetera. But what we really need to be doing right now is investing in getting those things to market. And that market is a global market.

And I am convinced from 50 years of evidence that the writers that gain international audiences gain Canadian audiences quicker and better. There's anomalies, of course, but generally that's the case, certainly in music, certainly in film. And we need to double down on that. And we need to double down on that now and we need to double down on that now. Now's a good time for that.

Let me follow up on that. You mentioned, David, a moment ago that it's a billion dollars, the book business in this country. Marcia, let me get you on this. The arts and culture sector contributes, I'm told, $60 billion annually to the gross domestic product of this country.

That's a lot. And yet, I hear this all the time. So many venues and institutions are having trouble, either drumming up support or getting gross domestic product of this country. That's a lot. And yet, I hear this all the time. So many venues and institutions are having trouble either drumming up support or getting people to donate or filling the room essentially. So why is that the case? Oh, multi-pronged.

But I'll start with COVID. COVID was an absolute catastrophe, especially for the performing arts in Canada for live shows, dance, theatre, music, and it has not recovered. It has not come close to recovering. Some places are doing better than others, but we are seeing live venues and we're also seeing organizations that put on live events shutting down. The Kingston Writers Festival, for instance, announced that it would cease operating. Now it's trying to come back. Great. I hope it does. The Regina Folk Festival has ceased operations. We're seeing music venues closed down because COVID took a hit.

People aren't coming back and the philanthropy is not there anymore. And the government funding is not where it was either. And I fear it's only going to get worse. So what do we do about all that, David? What do we do about all that? For us, the Writers' Trust is the biggest non-governmental funder of writers in the country, and we're proud of that.

And most of that is philanthropic money. So I think a big part of it is understanding that if these gaps exist, we have to find a way to catch the people who fall through them. And the second thing we need to do is try and close the gaps. I think we have to be supporting our culture, both as people, you know, we need to be going out to things, buying Canadian books, buying Canadian records,

going to shows, but also talking about different ways to find support, corporate support, government support, individual support. This feels like the moment for that. It is. I mean, people seem to be open to buying Canadian when they go to the supermarket, when they want to buy a book.

Exactly. Do you feel more hopeful that that could be the case now? I think so. I mean, this is a great moment for, I think, Canadian pride. And again, back to something Tanya said and something I started at the beginning. Canadian pride takes many forms, many different identities, thousands of years of history in this place. And so how you react to what this country is depends on you.

But I think how you react to an external pressure like this US Trump stuff is generally by supporting your community. And I think that means buying Canadian books, going out to shows, supporting Canadian artists. And so yeah, I'm optimistic that this moment is a moment for Canadian culture. I hope that we take it.

And I hope that the cultural sector still has the energy and the force behind it to take advantage of this moment. Tanya, can you, because you are kind of binational in the way you do your job, I guess you're back and forth between Canada and the US, maybe tell us how you are negotiating the complicated feelings that you presumably

have right now about what's happened to the relationship between our two countries. You know what? I'm pessimistic enough that I wait have right now about what's happened to the relationship between our two countries? You know what? I'm pessimistic enough that I wait to actually find the facts. You know, there's a lot of speculation. This could happen. That could happen.

This is happening now, but then next week it's not happening. So right now, I feel like there is nothing set. I mean, even when we hear something for today, what are we gonna hear next week? It's something different again. But when we were talking about before about that audience and about marketing, English-speaking Canada, and I say that because I think Quebec has done a very good job in this, we don't have enough of a star system. And a star system is not about patting yourself on

the back and we've got stars. The star system is actually the way you communicate with your audience. Regular people, regular audiences don't really care, especially in the screen industry, who directed it, who wrote it, who's in the background behind the camera. And if we're talking about getting international recognition more, we're going to have to put our actors front and center so that they can get that kind of adoration that is required from an audience to hook on to a show or hook on to a movie and really want to watch it. They want to support. Like if you play sports, you probably don't care as much in the people in the back. You want to know who those athletes are and what they're doing and what

they're up to. I think we need more of that in English-speaking Canada. It's definitely something America does very well. Well, to that end, let me ask Marcia about that, because I don't know how long he was on camera, probably a matter of a few seconds. And Mike Myers was on Saturday Night Live with a shirt saying, Canada's not for sale. And then he said, elbows up.

Right, and that became a thing. That became a big thing. Do we need our Canadian cultural icons to play a bigger role internationally to kind of promote who we are? Yes. And I think they're doing a pretty good job, but I do want to hear more of that.

I mean, first of all, Canadians have had such an impact on US culture. You mentioned Saturday Night Live. Lorne Michaels is Canadian, the man who created it and who was still running the show. And so are many other funny American stars who are actually Canadian. You know, Martin Short, the Ryans, Gosselin and Reynolds, Will Arnett, Seth Rogen, Katherine O'Hara. Eugene Levy. I do want to hear Eugene Levy and Dan Levy, his son. I do want to hear from all of them.

And you know what? I was really proud going back to the Junos, listening to Michael Buble take that on. And I think Baby No Money said something as well. What did he say? What was that that he said? Remind us, Marsha. I think about the alumni. But I'm not going to repeat it. But did you watch the Academy Awards? Hardly anybody said anything.

That really bothered me. I think this is the time we've got the star system and stars have a lot of power over the hearts and minds, especially of young people. So we need to hear from you now. Andrew, I want to, I mean, here we are. The Junos came up again and Anne Marie's come up again.

So let's show the clip, because she was a superstar that night. So, okay, Sheldon, if you would, let's roll it. Anne Marie from the Junos. Because the majority of my work was in the US, I was pressured very early in my career to move to New York or Los Angeles and I just couldn't do it. I just I knew instinctively that I needed a place to go to escape when my work was done.

Canada was my safe haven, my safety blanket, my light at the end of the tunnel, and it still is. Thank you very much. I don't know about you guys, I'm getting over-climbed watching that. I mean, that's just fantastic. But how much pressure is there? Look at you. You're in the music business. The Grievous Angel is still in business. You and Chuck Angus still doing your thing.

How much pressure is there to kind of make it in the United States and go down? Well, there's two different things here that you're talking about. One is making it in the United States. The other is moving to the United States, right? There are two different things. And I'd like to talk a bit about the moving part. Because we're in a moment that's similar to the United States, right? There are two different things. And I'd like to talk a bit about the moving part. Sure.

Because we're in a moment that's similar to the moment we were in in COVID, which is that suddenly, overall, we're looking at the arts and culture sector as like, hey, geez, I didn't notice we got this thing here. And maybe we should think about it. I think we missed a huge opportunity then, which was to think structurally about how do artists and those in the sectors, how do they live, how do they work?

Can they afford living in a city like Toronto? Can they afford to even do this kind of work? What does the future look like? Are young people opting for this sort of career? And I think they're not, largely because of work? What does the future look like? Are young people opting for this sort of career? And I think they're not, largely because it is such a difficult road to hoe. Now, it's always been hard to make a living in music.

I like to say, you know, music's a great place to get rich and a lousy place to make a living. And I think you could say that about any of the arts, any of the practices that we're representing here today. So we have an opportunity with this renewed focus to really look at, you know, and I know people talk housing and their eyes start to glaze over, but you know, you're stat about $10,000 below the poverty line for writers. I mean, you can say that about musicians too.

And so we need to think about are we serious about this? Is this an important part of the Canadian identity that we see we need articulated now that we see what is really frankly an existential threat, a real one, like a real threat. And if we decide yes we need this, this is important, well, then we need to work on how do we create the types of living conditions that keep our artists, or let's just say that allow our artists to not

have to opt for always going to these other places, right? But I think there's so many that are going back and forth. That's wonderful. But I'm more concerned not so much about artists moving to the United States. I'm more concerned about people just not doing it. And that's more of a concern. It's all too hard in the end.

Yeah, I mean, people really do it, unless you really, really got it? As we sit here taping this, we do not know whether Donald Trump will eventually put tariffs on books. Right. But I presume all of us on this program would think it's a pretty dumb idea if he did. But having said that, if it were to happen sometime down the road, what would that do to the Canadian book publishing business? I mean, it's on the draft list, there's been a lot of work

happening behind the scenes to try and take it off the draft list. It would be bad, I mean full stop. It would be bad for writers, it would be bad for bookstores, be bad for publishers. Just explain why. I mean a couple reasons, I mean for one, bookstores, you know, the stat about how many, what percentage of books sold in Canada are Canadian, obviously bookstores are affected. So any tariff that affects books that have to come in to bookstores, it means bookstores have to either absorb that tariff or pass it on to the consumer. There's not a lot of margin in bookstores, especially independent ones, so that's a difficult thing to accept.

There's also a very sort of boring answer about integrated global supply chains where you know a lot of you know there's three or four major international publishers that have Canadian offices. So Canadian offices, Canadian editors publishing Canadian books but often printed and warehoused in the US. So if those books re-enter Canada they'd be dinged with this tariff which of course would affect sales and which would affect bookstores and which would affect writers. So I mean cultural products are generally left off this tariff, which of course would affect sales and which would affect bookstores and which would affect writers. So I mean cultural products are generally left off of tariff lists historically and we like it that way, but

for books it would be disastrous for bookstores. Most of our best-loved, best-selling writers would sell fewer books and more people would be turning to books or other products that are cheaper. You know, Marshall, one of the things that we've seen lately is that if, for example, you go to a... I don't know if it's this way at the Canuck games, but I can tell you it sure is at the Leaf games, the Star Spangled Banner gets booed, not by everybody, but certainly by enough people to notice.

Oh Canada is sung as fervently as I've ever heard it, especially when you get to the part where our true north's strong and people scream free. Even at the National Ballet they are singing Oh Canada before the performances start. Tell us about that. What does that tell you about this moment? Okay now I'm getting buckled but I cried when I saw that video of the National Ballet, of the orchestra playing O Canada and the audience standing up and singing it. I mean, I haven't been to a Pinox game since this has all happened. Those tickets are a

little pricey. But I cannot wait to be at an event where O Canada is played so I can stand up and belt it out with the crowd, not just in my living room when I watch the Canucks and the Leafs, which I do much to the mortification of my teenage son. I sing loud and I can't wait to be in a crowd of other people singing it. Beautiful. You know, Tonya, when I was a kid and you went to just a regular everyday movie on a Saturday afternoon, they used to play O Canada before the movie started. They don't do it anymore.

They haven't done it for years. Should we do it again? It can't hurt. Yeah, let's put it up and let's get the words up there. Because I didn't come to Canada until I was 12. But for newcomers that are coming, they may not know the words. So let's get them up on the screen

so they can sing along with us. That sounds like a cool idea. David, back to what's going on in the United States right now. And you are seeing a pretty widespread cancellation of a lot of the DEI initiatives that had been undertaken in previous administrations. And Donald Trump and Elon Musk are sort of canceling all of that stuff right now.

Do you see any spillage over the border of that effort? I mean, I hope not. I mean, diversity is a reality. That's the D in DEI, right? And it's a reality in this country. And it should be a reality in this country. I'd say you look at the kind of perspectives that shape identity back to the first question.

They're myriad. They're many. And I think they're varied. And for me, nothing sharpens my own sense of my own identity and my own relationship to this culture as reading someone or listening to a record that has a different perspective than I have. It lets me ask questions of myself, it lets me celebrate something I might not know, it lets me be introduced to something I might not know, and that to me

makes things better. So I hope not, first off, but I'd also say if you look at bestseller lists in the country, the Junos is a good example, you're seeing people from various backgrounds all over those, lists all over those performances. And I think Canadians are responding by following these things in the market. They're buying Canadian records. They're buying Canadian books. They're watching Canadian films from people

from different backgrounds. And I think that is a reality. So whether these DEI, the chill, affects the industry, who's to say? But I think the market is there for books from a very diverse perspective. I mean you look at our award winners, you know, our Atwood Gibson Fiction Prize is a diverse writer, our Balsillie Prize for Public Policy a diverse writer, you know, all across the board with our awards we

have merit is the only, literary merit is the only category that our juries are given to judge these books by and yet there's writers from various backgrounds winning these prizes on a regular basis, not because of their demographic metrics, but because the quality of the work. With a few minutes to go here, Andrew, you're the one former politician among us here. So I'm going to ask you to give whoever the next prime minister

is some advice on what kind of public policy we ought to be undertaking in this country to encourage more of everything we've been talking about here? Well, I think they need to listen to the folks in the sector in the Canadian owned Sector I think that's really important because oftentimes in culture in Canada. There's two sectors going on There's the Canadian owned one and then there's the foreign-owned Multinational so we're here essentially to sell global Global stuff to Canadian markets. They invest but it's mostly that's what they're doing. So I think that and also

and this might not be fully popular here but they also need to think about what we do as a serious industrial sector of the Canadian economy. Meaning what? Well this is not just about you know being, being nice and, oh, we're going to give the little artists some money here and let them do their little thing while we go ahead and do all the serious stuff about the economy. We are a serious player in the Canadian economy and could be a bigger one if we were given that sort of attention at the policy level. Tonya, what about it?

Advice for the next prime minister? Wow. Well, going back to something you just said, which I now would love to give its advice, is let's get messaging better on DEI. Because DEI has become a dirty word. Almost in the way that they're spinning it here in the States, it's almost like DEI is getting people of color

or other diversity or LGBTQ who are not as skilled and giving them an opportunity, which is not what's happening at all. DEI came out of the fact that when I was growing up my parents were, you have to be 200% better to get the same level as someone who's white. That's how I grew up. It wasn't fair, but that's how it had to be. And to me, DEI is, oh, maybe I only have to be 100% like everybody else, as opposed to having to have superior skills just so you can get the same job.

And I think messaging around DEI has just been messy, and we need to get that really clean and clear. It is not people just getting a job who are unskilled or uneducated, and they shouldn't be there and you're taking the job away from white people to give to people of color who have no business being there. That's how it's sounding right now. So I would say, Mr. Prime Minister, let's get some commercials out that do better messaging on that. Marsha, last word to you. What does the next prime minister need to do?

Keep funding the CBC and ensure it remains a strong voice for Canada. I'm sorry, I know this is TBO, but... Public Broadcasting. Well, we're a provincial broadcaster, so we don't necessarily... We are not necessarily affected in the same way as the CBC, as by the results of the federal election. But what about broader than just CBC? What about theatre? What aboutBC? What about theater?

What about dance? What about movies? All of that. Books. Oh yeah, absolutely. Well, first of all, no counter tariffs on books. I hope there are no tariffs on books, but also increased funding through Canadian Heritage

for the Canada Council and other granting bodies for both organizations and artists. This is an existential crisis for them. They are desperately in need of funding from what has been a shrinking pot. Please don't forget about the arts in the midst of all the other crises we're dealing with. That seems like a great place to leave this.

Mr. Director, thank you for the foreshot, as I thank David Leonard from the Writers' Trust of Canada, Andrew Cash from CIMA, the Canadian Independent Music Association, Tonya Williams, Real World Institute and Film Festival, and Marsha Liederman, Canucks and Leafs fan. How you square that, I do not know. For the Globe and Mail out there on the left coast, thanks so much everybody for this great discussion tonight here on TVO. Thank you.

Thanks, Steve. Bye-bye.