The Agenda with Steve Paikin (Audio) - Does Sibling Rivalry Ever End?

Episode Date: December 10, 2024

One of the longest relationships many Canadians will have isn't with friends, partners nor parents. Siblings are, generally, one of the lifelong companions you don't get to choose and, sometimes, conflict creeps in. Sibling rivalry is a tale as old as time, from biblical stories to more contemporary examples of sporting excellence. Why do sibling rivalries begin and will they ever really abate? We ask experts in various fields to discuss this and more. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In a fractured information environment, isn't it hard to tell what's real and what's not? I'm Molly Thomas, host of a new show called Big If True. We're fighting misinformation one story at a time. Subscribe on YouTube and follow us on Instagram. I'm Matt Nethersole. And I'm Tiff Lam. From TVO Podcasts, this is Queries. This season, we're asking, when it comes to defending your beliefs, how far is too far?

We follow one story from the boardroom to the courtroom. And seek to understand what happens when beliefs collide. Where does freedom of religion end and freedom from discrimination begin? That's this season on Queries in Good Faith, a TVO original podcast. Follow and listen wherever you get your podcasts. Unless you're an only child, the longest standing relationship many Canadians are going to have isn't with friends, partners or parents, but rather siblings. Siblings are, usually, one of the lifelong companions you don't get to choose and sometimes, often, conflict creeps in. Sibling rivalry is a tale as old as time, from biblical stories to more contemporary examples of sporting

excellence. Why do sibling rivalries begin and will they ever really abate? Let's ask Justin DeVries, a state lawyer and mediator at DeVries litigation. Steve Yordens, professor of psychology at the University of Toronto Scarborough. Allison Schaeffer, parenting expert and family counselor. And Natasha Beganye, clinical therapist and founder of NKS Therapy. And it's great to have you four around this table for what's going to be a great discussion. I can tell. Allison, get us started. When does sibling rivalry emerge?

Well, I would say that if you are a only child and then the next sibling comes along, you're going to have to make a decision about how much threat that person is perceived to be for you. So even if you're only two years old? It's still subjective because suddenly the constellation of the family has changed and there's a new kid in town that is going to want to have

some of parental attention, parental resources, their love, you're going to be held as a comparator too. But it is very subjective whether or not they really decide that that is highly threatening or whether they're like, ah, I got another playmate, maybe we can work this out. So there's a real range. It is not predictive that you're going to have sibling rivalry.

You're going to have some conflict occasionally, as in any intimate relationship, but you're not fated to be rivals in the definition of really feeling like this is the person who blocks my sunshine. This is the person, you know, it's like Moriarty and Sherlock Holmes or something where you've really got somebody who just ruins your life by their very presence. That is not always the case. OK, but when it is, why does it, Steve, why does it start? Well, I mean, we've heard one of the big things, which is parental attention.

And we want, you know, that's how we feel we're valued. That's how we feel we're loved by how our parents attend to us and interact with us. And so when we have that all to ourselves for a while, that's fantastic. But as Adler kind of described it, when that second kid comes along, the first one is sort of dethroned. They lose their privileged status in the family.

And that takes a little bit of getting used to. And as was said, it depends how that plays out. It can play out in different ways. But that's certainly where it all stems from. Natasha, we call it sibling rivalry which automatically suggests it's a negative bad thing is that in fact the case? Not necessarily I think rivalry would imply some kind of as we're talking about competition right for resources for attention for airtime and I think that

the there is a Healthy a healthy element to that dynamic and it is a reflection to some degree of a reality that exists in the world So I don't think it's all bad, but Maybe the word is perhaps misleading in the sense that it can it can make it seem like it's a more negative Concept than it really is But I think it depends how those children or how the two siblings play that out, how that dynamic carries out. Because rivalry can become something more troubling. Yeah, so I was going to just share.

So I have three older brothers. And I joke and say they made me the man I am today. Like I took on a lot of masculine qualities. I have a very low register to my voice. I could speak up here if I wanted to, but I chose the lower tonality. And I was like the little engine that could. I had to keep up.

I had to really give it my best shot to keep up with the guys. So they gave me my ambition and drive. So I don't- That's a positive thing. That's absolutely a positive thing. This is a situation where there are four siblings. Justin, what if there are two, only two?

Is it particularly acute under those circumstances? No, not at all. I think it's, I don't know if there's a good predictor of what brings a family into conflict with an estate. It depends on the personalities. I mean, usually life has progressed a long way, so other elements come involved. It's often the personalities. I mean, usually life has progressed a long way, so other elements come involved.

It's often about money. But they do say, you know, a will is a last letter to the living. And if you treat people differently in that, that causes problems, and it often resurrects a lot of the resentment or some of the disputes that went on when people were kids. You mom loved you more, I looked after mom, you went to Vancouver, dad

gave you more money, you weren't around, you never visited, you know, and it all comes out. It all comes out then. But families are able, the good news I think is families have enough residue goodwill that in the legal world, if we go to a mediation, they can patch over some of the differences and move forward. Do we see more sibling rivalry in the negative sense of the word when the personalities among the kids are very similar or very different? That's a good question.

First, I also want to mention that I think the family constellation of three siblings can actually increase the chance of sibling rivalry. But I do think that there's an element of personality difference that is, and I've done some research in this area as well. So there is a nature element to it. There are some children who have certain personality traits that are maybe make them more extroverted, maybe they're high on neuroticism, maybe they're, you know, and that can play a significant role in addition

to how the parents are managing that dynamic. And if they're playing favorites, if one is, that's another major element is how the parents are managing it. Yes, personality plays a role. I got the parenting person right here. Let me go to you on this. Okay, so...

Well, I would agree that the closer in age and if they have the same gender, then they are going to be more comparable. It's apples to apples instead of apples to bananas kind of a thing. And so that means if you're highly comparable, those little nuanced differences are going to stimulate more competition. So if you're further apart in age and you're of different genders, then you're more likely to say, well of course they're older than me, they're different from me. So the competition comes down. In my world personalities are a big deal though because remember life has gone on, people are fixed in who they

are and if you have the bully or you have someone who's more you know willing to compromise that comes out. So the age difference disappears a little bit because you then have personalities and big personalities cause problems. You can have two people fighting, you can have four people fighting, you often get camps where people get involved and then you're throwing spouses into the mix too

and that too can cause further grief amongst the family. I don't know why I'm smiling so much during this show because this is serious, often negative, very debilitating stuff and yet so much of this we find funny when it's other people, right? Yeah, although I would like to point out that sibling rivalry is really an opportunity for parents. I mean, it is inevitable to some degree, not necessarily the rivalry as you described, but certainly the competition and this is the first chance when children start to socially negotiate with their peers and try to reach compromises and listen to one another etc.

And if parents I think take charge and that begins of course with the hardest step which is modeling you know this sort of thing yourself that when you have a controversy with your spouse to do that openly in front of your children to listen to each other first and model good effective listening, to maybe reach compromise states and let children realize, hey, they don't always get exactly what they want either. They sometimes had to compromise. Steve, that never happens. Come on.

This is the opportunity that exists. Because we know, by the way, that social connection is the number one predictor of happiness in life. And if we can teach our children how to form relationships, maintain relationships, manage relationships, that's the most powerful gift we can give them. So it's certainly worth the time and effort. What he's saying is very key about the conflict.

I have to just piggyback on that. Because if we don't frame conflict from an early age as an opportunity, as you said, for growth, then it can quickly become something that we are afraid of and avoid. And I see that very commonly. I even grew up in a household like that. But conflict is really what moves people forward

in their connection. But we can become, if we're afraid of it, if it feels negative, if we're feeling uncomfortable because we didn't learn how to do it, then we can carry that forward and become, if we're afraid of it, if it feels negative, if we're feeling uncomfortable because we didn't learn how to do it, then we can carry that forward and become, we avoid it and it festers and then you can actually build resentment. So it's either an opportunity for growth or it's an opportunity for, or it's regression. I think before we go any further, we need to understand here how much of what we're hearing is, is professional knowledge and how much of it you've lived.

Okay, we know you're one of four siblings. Yes, right. I had to lead with that. Yeah, yeah. I'm one of three. You're one of three. And I'm the youngest. You're the youngest of three.

Yes. Yeah, never any problems there, were there? Right, right. You? I'm one of three, middle child. So you're the classic negotiator, right? You're keeping the peace among the other two? Yeah, a lot of fairness, Alison, you're right on that.

Issues about fairness. Middle child. Picture the middle child. Not always too positive, yes. Like, it can be a little bit obsessive at times to the detriment. Got it. Steve?

I'm the baby of four. Baby of four? And I have three older sisters. Oh, so you two have got a lot of sympathy. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, really, all three of us. Three babies on the agenda.

I don't know why. Because babies tend, they don't have any strength except for their charm and personalities. We had to win the fights with something. We had to be adorable. And you still are. Absolutely. Yes, we had to use our wit. Yes.

And what's interesting too in the hysteria, when parents go away, they're often the referee to where people curb their behavior as adults. The parents go and then you get more conflict comes out throw some money in that in there fighting about the spoons who gets the royal adult and who doesn't and it's it can be both it can be a toxic mix for sure but as you know in the legal field we're not therapists so we have to kind of put the pieces together based on facts and try to get people to move forward. But if I hear what you're all saying, birth order matters a lot in terms of sibling rivalry.

And as much as, like, I bet you had a certain rivalry more with one of the three others as opposed to all of the three others. Is that fair to say? Typically, when you kind of map out a family and where they fall in the family, the person who is next to you in line tends to be the one that's the highest competition and that can often be the more fractured relationship.

And you tend to skip the one next to you and play and hang out and have a more positive relationship with the next one in line where the threat's a little bit less. It's not to say you don't have a built-in playmate and again, you're not fated for this, but that's a very common pattern. Middle child? Birth order matters a lot in the dynamic in your home? I think so. And I agree, or at least I've lived that experience,

where I'm the younger sister. So I have an older sister, four years older, and a younger brother about a year and a half. And I do think that there was certainly some felt throne stealing, although I didn't mean to steal anyone's throne. But I think I lived a little bit of that. Yeah.

Now, what if one of the two of them were in that chair instead of you? Would I be getting a different recitation of what happened? Probably. Everyone has an individual experience, right? It's very subjective. It's very one person's child's experience of the family dynamic is not the same One person's child's experience of the family dynamic

is not the same as the other child's. And there's a lot of subjectivity in that as well. So how about you being the baby of four? How did that affect the dynamic among the four of you? Pretty much nailed it. So my closest, oldest sister, that was where the most friction was. If I ate all the chocolate chips and mom said, who did it,

I pointed to her. She was the one. Whereas the oldest sister, she was almost, she was my closest connection, for sure. The closest? Oh, interesting. Well, I just want to share that, just because there's going to be some naysayers out there that are going to say,

I've done my research. And we've got research proof that birth order does not have an impact. So I just want to make sure that I often use family constellation or psychological position because for example, let's say the first child in a family might have like autism or a severe disability or something, the second person born might kind of assume the role

and take on some of the roles and responsibility being an eldest. Or in certain societies and cultures where there's different expectations for boys and girls, you might have a first born male and a first born female in terms of their roles, and they will kind of follow out. So just to be, if you're doing birth order and just looking on the date on their birth certificate,

it's not going to be enough. And do you grow out of it, I wonder? Does it always last, or do you grow out of it? Well, everyone's going to go home for the holidays, or you grow out of it, I wonder? Does it always last or do you grow out of it? Well, everyone's going to go home for the holidays or they just had Thanksgiving and you realize, like, man, when I go back home, it doesn't matter if I'm 62, they still treat me like the baby. Everything reverts, doesn't it?

So I do think that in your family dynamic, that gets reassembled. It can change, for sure. We're seeing more siblings coming for adult counseling now. So it can change. But it is, I would say, stable across the ages. I want to ask you about an author who told an amazing story who was in this studio not that long ago, Alexandra Pasadsky, who wrote a book called Rogers versus Rogers, in which the entire, well, I'm

sure it was very titillating for those who were reading about it in media accounts, but for the Rogerses themselves to go through all of that in such a public fashion, I'm sure it was incredibly painful for all of them as the siblings fought over Ted Rogers's empire, essentially. How, I mean, you're kind of, I guess, in the business of trying to navigate all of that stuff. How do you do it? Well, I guess you don't.

You can't put Humpty Dumpty back together again, if I can put it that way. Once he's broken, I don't know if you can put the pieces. But I think you focus on just the, of trying to get through the immediate conflict and then whether or not the family then heals. I imagine there's a lot of hard feelings. My experience is most people will not You know reassemble any kind of relationship once it's fractured once there's conflict you bring in you know lawyers lawyers Automatically raise the temperature they would have spent a boatload of money. They were far fighting about their father's legacy

Everybody thought they knew what the legacy was everybody says dad's Dad's on my side, or I'm doing this for Dad. They would have wanted this. Yes, would have wanted that. And that empowers. They believe their own narrative. But in that case, though, it was in there, often family squabbles do go to mediation because they don't want the publicity or to private arbitration to move it out of the public eye.

And often, you don't even see families fight because they have an estate plan that ensures that goes out. Well Steve it was worse than that in the case of the Rogerses because not only was it public in as much as the media were covering it as a story but one of the Roger siblings was tweeting all about it and taking pot shots at Edward, the guy who ended up running the company who ended up up, I guess, winning is what you would say in the end. Yeah.

What do you deal with all of that? I mean, one of the hardest things we all face is judgment. We don't like when someone else is judging us. But it's one thing if it's a personal quiet thing. When I was bartending, I used to be told if you're going to cut somebody off, take them to the side, tell them quietly, I'll give you some fake drinks for the rest of the night. I'll give you back your money and everything will be fine. And that would work.

But when you take conflict into the public sphere and when there's judgmental and that sort of stuff, that just raises the whole, you talk about not putting Humpty Dumpty back together. I mean, I think that's what really crashes it. And those are really hard things to get past once they've been said and done. Okay, let's do something here.

This is written by Jeffrey Kluger for Time magazine, one of its cover stories more than a decade ago. And Sheldon, if you would bring this up, I'll read along for those listening on podcast. Their sweetness in the lies parents tell their kids, which is a very good thing since they tell a lot of them. From clan to clan, culture to culture, there's one tall tale nearly all parents tell and they tell it repeatedly. We do not have a favorite child.

Mom and dad will say it earnestly, they'll repeat it endlessly, and in an overwhelming share of cases they'll be lying through their teeth. It's one of the worst kept secrets of family life that all parents have a preferred son or daughter and the rules for acknowledging it are the same everywhere. The favored kids recognize their status and keep quiet about it. The better to preserve the good thing they've got going and to keep their siblings off their back. The unfavored kids howl about it like wounded cats, and on pain of death, the parents deny it all." That's really good. How true is that?

Well, I do think there is truth to it. I do think that every parent knows that they should always say, I don't have a favorite. They know that that's psychologically wounding to say it. But there are ways that we express favoritism that even unwittingly, parents do not know they are doing it. I deal with that a lot in my example stepping into sibling conflict and taking a side. You hit your brother,

you go to timeout, you know you're older, you should know better. Things like that. Or just having a personality where two people are extroverts and they both like to ski so they spend all their time on the hills and just have more time to build up the relationship and more things in common. And you know, when the other one might be, you know, a geek who really likes to play computer games and they're like, you don't have to say anything. I know you're disappointed in me. You want me to be out on the hill and I'd rather be on my computer.

So you don't have to say a word. I just feel it. Well, let me pick up on that. Natasha, when one child receives special treatment and everybody knows it, what does that do to the dynamic amongst them? Yeah, that can have a detrimental effect, to say the least. It can cause, it can heighten that sibling rivalry, it can turn it into something that is a little bit more sinister, like I said.

How about if the parents go to bat for the weakest child? When you say, like, going to bat for the weakest child, like, as a means of favoritism? Yeah. When kids fight, invariably, the parents will want to make sure that the weaker child or the weakest child is not getting beaten up and damaged all the time. So they go to bat for that kid.

What does that do? It's an interesting. I'm actually living that, because mine are 11 and eight, and I do hear feedback from my 11-year-old saying, not in those words, but the message is you're going to bat for the younger one more than me. And I think that there's truth to that. And I think we have to listen.

And it's very easy to kind of slip into that pattern, as you say, and not even unwittingly realize what you're doing. You're trying to level the playing field. You think you're leveling the playing field. You think there's a rationale for it because that person's younger and because you think that older one should know better, but you're not actually holding space for their experience.

In fact, that one that is playing the weaker role quickly learns that I don't have to learn how to solve the conflict and develop those important negotiating skills. Instead, what I'm going to do is when something starts to happen, I'm going to feign being weak, and then I'm going to call in the army called mom and dad or mom and mom, dad and dad, whatever your family structure is, and that person is going to

do my bidding, and they'll probably get my way for me. So they're less invested in trying to build the relationship with their sibling that they're having conflict with. Now based on this, one of the things that's often suggested is sort of date nights with your Now, based on this, one of the things that's often suggested is sort of date nights with your kids. Spending time with a kid, but doing this equally. So it's this idea of being equal, but not so fair,

but not equal. So not doing the exact same thing with every child, finding what they're uniquely interested in. Maybe it's the ski hill, but maybe it is. Let me learn your video game world, and let me try playing a video game with you and spend some time with you. But also you know what I thought was interesting about Natasha is what she tells me that you know if a child tells you hey I'm feeling unfairness here, ears got to get big at that point and it's a great

opportunity to sit listen and and let them know that they're heard, let them know that you've thought about it and that you'll carry that with you as you leave. And that's true too in the estate planning world. I mean you want, a lot of people don't want to talk to their kids and so again time goes by and you know things fade or maybe they're under the surface but a lot of parents won't even talk to their adult children. So if you're going to treat a child differently, which you're entitled to do because you think the child needs a helping hand or is not as successful as you, you need to talk to your children about that.

Even adult children say, this is why I'm doing it. But people don't want to. Sometimes it's superstitious that I don't want to talk about my death. I don't want to update my estate plan. It's none of your business. But it's their business because when you die, if you have a chaotic life, a chaotic family life, you're going to have a chaotic estate. Just so I understand, you say it's imperative to talk to the quote unquote stronger child

about why you are favoring quote unquote the weaker child in your will? Yes. Talk to the stronger kid. And also say, you know, often you can have a family meeting and say, this is why I'm doing this. You're the spendthrift child. I'm going to put your money in the trust because I'm worried that you're going to spend it. Now if you demonstrate to your trustees that you can spend it wisely, you get the money.

But I'm giving you less. I'm giving a boost here because, you know, again, they need help. How much, let me do one more follow up with you, how much more complicated does this get in the case of blended families? Oh. He starts laughing. I know. I'm laughing because it's a lot of our bread and butter.

You have the first family, as we call it, and then the second spouse. And there, you know, someone's with, particularly if they're with their second spouse a long time, it's usually men, is the reality. But they put money aside for their spouse. But the first family feels the spouse is spending the money or not accountable and they feel their inheritance is going You know the way of the dodo bird so they fight you know against the spouse so it becomes more complicated

And it keeps lawyers very busy I I Shouldn't say this well. I'm gonna say this this was a big problem in the Sinatra family, right? The kids and the fourth wife? Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah. For sure. And it's, I mean, it's typical. It's typical.

And we spent a lot of time and paper fighting about that and trying to get past it. How about gender? How does gender affect rivalry? I mean, it can affect in a lot of different ways. I know one case, for example, where the oldest child in the family was a boy who played basketball and was quite good at it.

And the next child was a girl. And you might expect her to find her own niche or her own whatever, but rather she chose his niche to show that she was just as capable and in fact was as capable and was as successful. At basketball? At basketball and was very proud of that fact. So it was kind of like, you know, sometimes the competition as we talk about can be positive

and sometimes it can be, oh yeah, yeah, I've enjoyed watching you watch me now. And I think that was the dynamic in that relationship and that was, I think, a gender-based thing of kind of showing. What do you see in that world? Yes, so the same. My parents waited a long time to have a little girl. You know, they had three rowdy boys, so finally they kept My parents waited a long time to have a little girl. They had three rowdy boys, so finally they kept buying me little tea sets and dolls,

and I didn't want that. I wanted to do what the boys were doing. I just wanted to be included. I wanted to be one of them. So why did I have the bicycle that had those bars that went like this? I wanted the bar that went across like this. So I didn't want to stand out and be different. I just wanted to belong.

But I think it does go back to that apples to oranges comparison. And they probably thought I was preferred because I stood out as being the different gender. So that is because you have three older brothers, you obviously would have been treated and three older brothers and you're the baby and you're a different gender. So it's a it's a in some respects, it's a perfect storm for sibling rivalry because you are going to be the most, you're going to have that most favored nation status, aren't you?

And it also means when you're looking at family dynamics, I would lump the three boys together and I would probably call them a first, a middle, and a baby boy if I'm looking at how the dynamics kind of play out. And if you have very large families, say 10 kids, you can see where there's sort of clusters and you have to look at each cluster. So you could have three babies in each of those clusters. But again, they're going to orient themselves around their comparables.

Do I find that my brother is a threat because we're both boys and we're only 16 months apart? So we both should be able to be getting these marks at school and being on the AAA hockey team, but one's better than the other that's that's gonna be very different than if it was a sister who's only 16 months and you know for sure yeah yeah how about because differentiation is key yeah right if the more you can differentiate yourself from a sibling with the exception of the basketball I'm actually surprised by that but the more you can differentiate from a sibling the better chance of kind of reducing that rivalry but I would also say there's a cultural element for the gender as well because

in certain cultures absolutely there will be a favoritism for one gender particularly boys in South Asian Asian cultures. I grew up in a South Asian family. Baby boy, two older sisters. Definitely favored. Youngest, boy, different, two older sisters, Indian family. So it will. So favored not just because he's the baby. Not just because he's the baby. But also because he's a boy. But because he's a boy, and boys are

quite valued in the culture. So of course, that can create. How did the older sisters deal with that? The older sisters in my family? Yeah. I think differently. Do you read the riot act, your parents at some point, and say, you know, this culture stereotype has got to go.

They deny it to the state. But I think at some point, you have to accept it and move on. Like that becomes the bill of the night. But again, in the estate world, it is setting up a recipe for a will challenge. If one, you know, especially in Western culture, where it's, you know, they're supposed to be more egalitarian in some sense.

If the boy gets all the money, there's bound to be a challenge. And what's interesting from a gender perspective, it's often the women or the girls who look after their parents for whatever reason is expected. So then is there expectation that I get more, or it's unfair that you're giving it all to a boy, or giving more to a boy, or someone gets the house and I should get the house. So it's interesting.

It changes, as I keep saying, from when you're young to when you get older. There's the same dynamics, but life has intervened in some ways and rubbed some edges off and polished others. Dutch background? Dutch background, yes. Is there an ethnic issue here in your family

about the way these things are handled? Yeah, I mean, we were talking a little bit before we came on. I mean, my family is not an affectionate family, never was an affectionate family, never was an emotionally expressive family, so to speak. So everything was very.

They may be watching this, Steve. Yeah, I know. Well, they would know that themselves. They know that, OK. My wife's family is very much so I imported some of that after I got married. And it was kind of interesting to try to bring some of that warmth and cuddliness

to a family that didn't naturally kind of exude that. But I think things were very driven by the parents. And it was a very authoritative, not authoritarian, like a good authoritative parenting style. So there were rules. There were reasons for the rules. We all kind of had to go by that. And I think they kept us largely in line.

Plus, I was so much behind. My sisters were all older. They had done all the real groundbreaking to go by that. And I think they kept us largely in line. Plus, I was so much behind. My sisters were all older. They had done all the real groundbreaking work on my parents. I just kind of slid them under the radar. Was it an unhappy childhood then because of that? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no want you to become an independent person as young and early as can. I was working when I was eight years old on a farm doing stuff. We didn't get an allowance. You had to earn your own money if you wanted to buy a bicycle or something like that. And it was just a very preparing you I think for adulthood from

a very young age. Yeah and I just thought it was normal. I thought it was fine until I started meeting all these warm people. Do you have kids Steve? I have two stepdaughters who now have grandkids. So I have eight, sorry five grandkids. Do you have kids Steve? I have two stepdaughters who now have grandkids. So I have eight, sorry, five grandkids. As you see the dynamic play itself out, do you see the sibling rivalries that we're talking about here? Yeah, I mean one of the families is just a boy and a girl. They tend to get along quite well, but the other family has four kids, three older girls and a boy, just sort of like my situation. And that's where the girls have more of the rivalry that plays

out. We're at roughly the same age and going through stuff. But again, the boy's golden. The little boy is just treated like everybody's a little boy. I wanted to just jump on the comment about the differentiation. Children purposely try to differentiate themselves. So even if you have a family value

that you are a musical family, very rarely will you find all kids playing the piano. One will do the piano, the other guitar, the other one drums. You might be a hockey family, very rarely will you find all kids playing the piano. One will do the piano, the other guitar, the other one drums. You might be a hockey family, but they're not all goalies. One's going to be the left wing one. I don't even know all the positions in hockey. I'm a bad Canadian, I'm a bad Canadian.

But they will differentiate themselves. What, the Stahls brothers? Weren't they the famous hockey? Yeah, they'll differentiate themselves. There's a few Stahl brothers, six Sutter brothers who made the NHL. Yeah. So, hockey family. But they didn't all play the same position. Nope, so kids,

and then we have to give them opportunity as parents. So as soon as I could start separating my kids, my kids were 16 months apart, so when they're young, well, the ballet class, there was only one age group, so I had to put them together. But as soon as I could put them in different classes,

in different sports, expose them to different things, different instructors, I worked to give them that individuality so that I was reducing that, or increasing the likelihood of differentiating in order to bring down the competitive piece. And a lot of it is also how competitive the family is.

It also resides in the marriage. So if the marriage is very competitive, then that seeps down to, you'll have more differentiated different personalities if the parents are competitive. If the parents are less competitive. Competitive with each other? Yes, but not competing like if you lose a board game,

you flip the board and have a hissy fit. Like competitive, like everything's judgmental, you have a lot of metrics on things, you keep an eye on judgment, and that gets broadcast to the kids. So they do feel like if somebody is being held in higher regard, that means somebody's falling into disfavor.

So when there's abundance in the family, abundance of love, of diversity, you can do no wrong, unconditional love, the kids don't have to fight so hard to find their own unique niche. They can overlap and not feel like they're being compared. All you need is love. That's all you need is love, that's right.

I'm so glad you brought up hockey. Mostly because, not just because I love to play it. Why do I see you in your sports shirts, I know. Because we got a clip here. Now this was a lovely, lovely, if I say so myself, interview with Ken Dryden, the Hall of Fame goaltender of the Montreal Canadiens, who was in the studio several months ago,

talking about a new book of his. And we talked about his brother, Dave Dryden, who was also a goaltender in the National Hockey League, and his older brother, but not as good as Ken. So there was potential for a very rivalrous, difficult relationship, but it didn't happen. Here's Ken talking about it.

Sheldon, if you would. Here's Ken talking about it. Sheldon, if you would. Dave's six years older than me. And he was who I wanted to be. I mean, he could do everything that I wanted to do. I mean, he could catch a puck when I would go off my wrist or something.

He could feel the ground ball in a way in which I could. He could throw a curve ball when I couldn't throw a curve ball. And so, he just did what I wanted to do. If you're hearing a bit of a tremor in Ken's voice there, it's because Dave had just died not long before that program, so he was a little fragile there. Dave went on to have a great career,

he was a teacher, he was a little fragile there. Dave went on to have a great career. He was a teacher. He was a school principal. But Ken, indisputably, had the better hockey career. I mean, he's in the Hall of Fame. He won six Stanley Cups. He got Vezina trophies. He's got, anyway, he was Team Canada goalie in 1972 in the final game.

But the reverence and affection is there. How does that happen? Again, that's a choice. He clearly looked up to his elder brother, and that's very common. And his older brother obviously didn't take him as the pest or the bother or the somebody that I have to walk to the store or that I have to slow down for this little, pesty younger sibling.

He clearly enjoyed the companionship. And I also think in that generation, parents were more hands-off. You were more free-range. You probably went out to the backyard and were out there skating, and there was no parent looking out the window saying, hey, hey, hey, you're being a huckpog. They worked it out. They negotiated it. And so I think that that generation was better at having more cohesive sibling relationships

because we just get too into it now. I think in that way, it does show the opportunity. We talk about rivalry, and yes, there's some rivalry. But again, it is the opportunity when the kids do work it out themselves on the ring. When they find those skills, when they start to say, OK, there's places we have friction, but there's places where I really admire you.

That's what you leave the space for, is for that highly personal, deep connection. And those are the connections that really keep us going through life and beyond, through death. And that's what I saw there in that clip. I think the older sibling really does play a role there in terms of determining the dynamic, because the younger sibling will always look up, will always kind of idealize and want to be and mimic and copy the older sibling to some degree. So it's really also a choice, not just a choice of the younger sibling to feel that way,

but also a choice of the older sibling to embrace that younger sibling and not make them feel, as you said, like a pest. And I think that that's a very, not always an easy choice to make, but a powerful one. Justin, in our last minute here, given when you see siblings, which is not usually under the most...

Best of circumstances. The best of circumstances, yeah. Does it kind of question your belief in humanity at all? Not really. I think people are obviously fundamentally good. Families are complex. I mean, it's interesting. I'm listening to this conversation.

It's all when the kids are young. So you put 40 years between when you're a family unit and when you're older. Your parents die. There's grief involved. Life has changed. Some people are more active with parents. Other, dementia takes its toll.

And so not surprisingly, I think there is tension. I don't think it's a bad thing always. I mean, Roger's family, I mean, that's just tragic. And the lawyer would have told her, stop tweeting for sure. You know, stop creating that kind of mischief in the public realm. But there is a wellspring of goodwill. And generally, they can move past it

if you've got a good mediator, decent lawyers. And often, if you keep the spouses a little on the side, too, because the spouses sometimes push them, saying, your brother always got one over on you, you always got the better deal. That's not helpful. So that's not helpful. So sometimes as a mediator, we have to say, you know, it's not your family. And remember what your parents wanted. Your parents want you to get along.

They don't want you to spend money on lawyers. So figure it out and stop litigating issues that are decades old. Great advice. Can I thank Justin DeVries and Alison Schaeffer on that side of the table, and Natasha Beganye and Steve Yordens on the other side of the table. Great of all of you to come into TVO tonight

and help us out with this. And may your sibling rivalries all be gentle and positive. Thank you.