The Agenda with Steve Paikin (Audio) - Does the RCMP Need an Overhaul?

Episode Date: June 4, 2025

Two-thirds of the RCMP's resources go to contract policing in 11 provinces and territories. Does that leave enough resources for federal policing? Prime Minister Justin Trudeau proposed major structural reform for the force as he was leaving office. Are his ideas the right way forward? We discuss with Catharine Tunney, Kent Roach, and Jason Easton.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Before leaving office, Justin Trudeau made reform of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police a top priority. Two-thirds of the force's resources currently go to contract policing. And the RCMP is the official police service in all provinces and territories, except Ontario and Quebec. A policy paper released before Trudeau's exit mapped out a new arrangement for the service, which is more than a century and a half old. Joining us now to discuss whether these reforms are the right way to go, we welcome in the nation's capital, Catherine Tunney. She's a reporter with CBC's Parliament Hill Bureau, where she covers national security

and the RCMP. In Oakville, Ontario, Kent Roach, professor at the University of Toronto's Faculty of Law and author of Canadian Policing, Why and How It Must Change. And with us here in studio, Jason Easton, former senior advisor to Prime Minister Justin Trudeau. Jason, it's good to see you again here in our studio and to our friends in Points Beyond. Thanks for joining us on TVO tonight. We should say, not that we're not delighted to have you here, but we did invite someone

from the RCMP and the National Police Federation, which is the union that represents RCMP officers to appear with us this evening on this program, and they both declined. What are you going to do? Here now, let's do, Sheldon, you want to bring this graphic up, a summary of what former Prime Minister Trudeau's policy paper suggests for the RCMP, a new vision, as they call it. Focus the RCMP resources on nationwide issues, foreign interference, violent extremism, cybercrime as examples.

Create a new federal police training academy. Recruit people with specialized skills to become, quote, federal investigators, have separate budgets for contract and federal policing, and transition provinces away from contract policing. OK, those are some of the ideas that were advanced then. Jason, let me get you going here first. This seems to have been a big deal for the prime minister, the former prime minister.

How come? So former Prime Minister Trudeau had respect and a passion for the RCMP. He would often quip that just like Mowgli and Wolves, he was raised by the RCMP. And over his nine years in office, he certainly saw his fair share of successes, but also his fair share of controversy. And in former Prime Minister Trudeau's mind, he wanted to evolve and transform the RCMP into a modern federal policing service, one which met the evolving national threats at the level of which we now have to deal with them, and one which also

provided the highest level of safety and security to Canadians across the country. which also provided the highest level of safety and security to Canadians across the country. And in that respect, he strongly felt that a more regional and tailored local approach would be best suited to fulfill those needs. Catherine, one could infer from those comments that the RCMP has a reputation problem. Do you think it does? Well, I think report after report has suggested it has, you know, clearly perhaps nothing was as came to a head as much as the shooting in Nova Scotia and that report would basically tore down the RCMP saying that there were problems almost at every level and clearly this is a report that was released after, you know, 22 people were shot. And the RCMP's response to that was greatly criticized.

But that's not the only one. You know, just a few years earlier than that, I was reporting on the Bass Thrash report, which was a report put out by the former Supreme Court justice after the sexual assault lawsuit that the RCMP went through. And that report pointed to a toxic culture, one that allowed bullying, allowed homophobia, allowed sexism as well. And you can go back all the way to 2007, a Brown report, which is also suggesting that the RCMP, the way that it was set up, that it strained and needed a rethink. So I think there are real

problems. Now, when it comes to reputation, obviously people are going to have different feelings with the RCMP. There's lots of people who feel very strongly about the Mounties. You know, they're iconic, right? You know, the musical ride. They're almost, you know, sewn into Canada's DNA. And I think people still have a lot of pride in that. But for others, I think, you know, when you staff all those reports back to back to back, I think it paints a pretty daunting picture.

In which case, Kent Roach, do you think the reforms that have been advanced in the little summary I just gave, do you think they're a step in the right direction? I think most of them are. I mean, the RCMP definitely needs to improve federal policing. I think the Trump administration makes that an imperative. And I think that one audience for this reform, frankly frankly was the Trump administration. But I think it's simplistic to think that the RCMP can or even should completely get out of contract policing before the next contracts have to take effect in 2032. And I also, you know, I have to say that there was a degree of recklessness with

this report. The RCMP needs to improve. I think it knows it needs to improve, but it is a national institution. And, you know, the fact that Commissioner Duhaime, this seemed to catch him unaware, I found a little bit shocking and actually jarring. When you say recklessness, what do you mean? Well, I mean, you know, this proposes to cut the RCMP in more than half. You know, 15,000 officers and support workers would have to transition to either a provincial

or a local or perhaps indigenous police services. Now I think that's a completely legitimate option. We've seen it happen in Surrey, BC, which is one of the largest growing cities. That was the RCMP's biggest attachment before the Surrey police service took over. But I do worry about how less prosperous provinces and the territories are going to be able to adjust to this. And I think that one of the things that the new Carney government may do, and you saw this in some of

Catherine's reporting where she had an interview with Prime Minister Trudeau, is he said, you know, part of the reason is we want to get rid of the federal subsidy. So basically the federal government pays about 30% of the bill for contract policing. And I think now with the new Carney government, they're going to be even more concerned with fiscal restraint. But you know, the problem is that this may download very challenging policing issues

onto provinces, municipalities, and indigenous communities. Who pay 70% of the shot and Jason what would be your reaction to that? Well I don't think the report lays out a specific prescriptive transition that downloads those costs. I also don't think that it was a reckless exercise to put it out. On everything that Catherine mentioned, work on reforming the RCMP has been ongoing for years and there are systemic structural issues that haven't allowed any federal government to advance that work. What Prime Minister Trudeau was attempting to do with the white paper was provide

thought leadership and a vision for the future. That vision can be very ambitious. It could be two separate organizations or multiple separate organizations, one that provides federal policing, one that provides contract policing support to provinces and territories. But a much more pragmatic approach could be incremental in terms of ring fencing federal policing funding so that you don't have federal policing or federal policing dollars subsidizing some of the needs that arise on the front line through the contract policing services. So there's a range of options in terms

of how this could be introduced, how it can be transitioned. And I would note that the White Paper also envisions enhanced investments for exactly the type of situations that have been noted, whether it's indigenous or whether it's for policing in the territories. Mike, today's name came up just a moment ago, the RCMP commissioner, and he did react to the policy proposal with this statement, and I'm going to ask our director Sheldon Osmond to bring this up, and I shall read along for those listening on podcast. Okay, here's the RCMP commissioner. The RCMP has been under-invested for decades. The funding has not kept pace with the technology and resources required to tackle today's criminal

landscape. Several months ago, the RCMP presented Public Safety Canada with our own Transformation Plan. Our plan, which is feasible, aims to address today's complex criminality by leveraging the front-line work taking place in communities across the country. I firmly believe that we are best positioned to face these challenges as one organization, with federal, provincial, territorial, indigenous, municipal, and specialized policing mandates. Now, the National Police Federation released a statement in agreement saying that what

the RCMP needs is not structural reform, but rather increased and sustained federal funding. Which sounds like, anyway, I shouldn't opine on this. I should get you guys to opine on this. So Catherine, you heard the commissioner's statement and then the response from the National Police Federation. React to that if you would. Yeah, well, I think there was surprise and shock when my interview came out and this white paper was released,

as the commissioner said in the ad. He probably more than anyone recognizes that changes do need to happen. Before he was made commissioner, he was in charge of federal policing. He would know quite well the problems in federal policing, but he is now the commissioner of the whole force. So he has to speak for the entire organization.

I think he was upset by the white paper, if I can speak a little bit frankly. He also, as it says in that thing, has ideas for reform and was hoping that to be picked up. And from the NPF as well, the union clearly, they represent those regular members. So as a union, they're speaking up for their members. On top of this, we have to also layer that they have the RCMP is dealing with a recruitment and a bit of a retention crisis. You could even use that word. So they are trying to bring people in the door. And I think there's frustration when they heard a prime minister who was going out

the door, you know, was saying perhaps we won't have contract policing in a few years, and that's probably not going to help their recruitment issues. And I think they were very aware of that. And they're also very aware of the particular issues in the North. You know, the RCMP is the place of jurisdiction there. There's probably not enough people in the North who want to be RCMP officers in order to do the policing that the North, you know, deserves. You need people from the South, if you will, to come up and people often don't

stay that long. It's a bit of a, you know, you go up in your early inner career. It's a very, you know, retention and recruitment is very complex. I think they're also very aware of that. And I think that is reflected in those statements that they put out. Kent, maybe I could get you to react to what the Federation had to say there, which is we don't need, you know, structural reform. We just need more money and we need it more often. Now, everybody wants more money and they want it more often. But okay, react to that if you would.

Yeah, no. want it more often. But OK, react to that if you would. Yeah. No, I mean, look, more money for federal policing, that's probably justified. But police budgets cannot keep rising all the time. And of course, many of the contract partners are still dealing with the repercussions of the NPF's first collective agreement, which resulted in substantial pay hikes for the RCMP. So there is this kind of ratchet that is going on with each police service that

gets a collective agreement, then becomes the benchmark for the next service. So we have to deal with that, but we have to deal with that in a way of saying, do we have the right mix of police officers and other people? What about mental health professionals? What about social workers? Now, of course, those people will not be represented by the NNNNNPF.

One of my concerns is, you know, by the NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN strong leadership of political leadership of the RCMP, we could see a future where the NPF becomes almost a de facto government because they can now, their first contract was all about catching up with salaries, but there's really nothing in the RCMP Act that stops them from negotiating on other issues. And of course, you course, one of the things is policing is really in transition now. I think throughout the world, we're asking, do we have the right mix? Are we asking police to do things

that they are just, however well-intentioned, however well-trained, they're just not designed to do. Responding to addictions, responding to the unhoused population, responding to mental health. And so I worry a little bit that the unionization provides perhaps a barrier to change. Now, the NPF has been carrying the ball for contract policing but their message has basically been when they've gone out to little municipalities in Alberta and said keep the RCMP, which a lot of them do, want to keep the RCMP, they've led with the fact or you're going to lose the federal 30% subsidy. So okay well let me put some of this to Jason here,

because that's a good long list of some things that we're asking the RCMP to do. And you could add cybercrime and foreign interference and white collar crime and taking care of violent crime. I mean, it's a long list of things we're asking the RCMP to do these days, Jason. Are we asking them to do too much? I think the answer to that is yes.

When you list it all out like that and you add contract policing in and the fact that it's two-thirds of what the RCMP does today and you look at the reporting structures in the provinces where provincial priorities have to be incorporated into what the RCMP does, it creates a very muddled structure and where the RCMP actually functions best from federal policing standpoint and with cooperation through multiple jurisdictions is in Ontario and Quebec, where there are separate provincial police forces and those integrated units function much better than anywhere else in the country,

where it's RCMP federal policing interacting with RCMP police of jurisdiction. So yes, I think every organization of great size will function better with focus and with clarity of mission. And these are all reasons why we need to have a much more enhanced and strategic approach to federal policing. I'll pick up on that word focus because I want to focus on the indigenous community right now and to do so, I want to take you back five years. Marie Sinclair was on this program, the former head of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, former Senator, talking about the relationship between the RCMP and Indigenous communities

across Canada. Here's what he had to say. Sheldon, roll it if you would. We've heard many instances of how Indigenous people and people of color feel they've been handled by the RCMP. People with mental health issues, people with addiction problems, people with homeless situations and generally who come from vulnerable social situations also talk about police forces generally and the RCMP in particular sometimes become the tools of oppression by governments and by private corporations.

Hmm. Okay, strong words from Marie Sinclair. Catherine, let me get you to tell us whether in your reporting, since those comments five years ago, the RCMP has picked up its game as it relates to dealing with what the senator called the indigenous and people of color communities. Yeah I mean I think there's been an attempt you know perhaps mix so clearly different communities are going to feel all kinds of different things you know I think of the Colton Boushey case a few years ago and how raw those feelings were and that community feelings towards the RCMP.

I've toured with the RCMP in communities, clearly they're bringing me to communities that they want me to go to, but I've been to communities, you know, First Nations communities that also want more RCMP officers. So to put out there that lots of communities are going to have different feelings about it. Now I think there have been attempts, I was at an event where, you know, the RCMP is only supposed to stand and salute to O Canada. We were at an event where the MMP is only supposed to stand in salute to O Canada. We were at an event where the Metis national anthem was being sung and then the RCMP stood up and saluted to that.

And I think talking to people in that crowd, that meant a lot. That's probably, that's not huge. I mean, it's perhaps huge in the moment, but I think more things need to happen. This has kind of just changed in the last few years. I think lots of more work has to do on it. But I do think that there's an attempt. But I think some of those wounds are so, so deep. As we said, the RCMP is more than 150 years old.

And I think a lot of communities have a lot of feelings that go back decades when it comes to that relationship and that mistrust with the RCMP. And I think that is a huge hurdle to get over. I give the RCMP some goodwill. I think they are trying, but I think for many people, it perhaps isn't good enough. There's communities also like Nova Scotia,

and I know we're talking about First Nations and people of color, and I don't wanna take away from that, but there's lots of people in Nova Scotia also who I don't think will get over what happened to them. So it's a deep well, I think, that the RCMP has to get out of. OK, let's focus now on cybercrime, which again, made the list of things that we apparently want the RCMP to be more focused on going forward. And I want to take you back 12 years now to a time when we had the University

of Toronto's Ron Deibert on this program, speaking about the research going on, cybercrime and discovering crimes in progress. Sheldon, let's play that clip. You presented your findings to the RCMP. What'd they say? We were witnessing a crime in progress, but one, as the RCMP told us,

for which there's not really a clearly identifiable victim. And for them to be able to Prosecute somebody or undertake the case. They need a complainant They need a clear victim not always easy also because the perpetrators were in st. Petersburg, Russia They let us know that look it's it's pointless for us to even begin to take on this case Because the many months it would take to get permissions with inside Canada to then contact our Russian counterparts would be futile. Okay Jason this is definitely more sort of 21st century crime as opposed to the

old-fashioned bar fights and stuff that the RCMP traditionally has to break up in various places around the country. Are they getting better at this? I do think they're getting better at this. The federal government has made significant investments into federal policing, but there still are barriers, and one of those is attracting the top talent that is able to be specialized and focused on investigating these types of crimes. So for an RCMP officer to work in federal policing, they first have to do all of their rotations and frontline policing as well.

There's no ability to go to the best universities and colleges across the country and recruit the most talented cybersecurity or computer programming experts. Similarly, if you're talking about financial crimes or forensic accountants, these are the types of reforms on talent recruitment that we really need to open up for the RCMP to be able to do world-class federal policing on crimes of this nature.

Kent, I'll get you to weigh in on that. In as much as 12 years ago, certainly the head of the Citizen Lab, Ron Debert, thought that the RCMP were dramatically overmatched when it came to cybercrime and this kind of modern challenges that they have to deal with. Are they better at it today?

Well, I mean, I think all police services, and in fact, the criminal law, is struggling to catch up with cybercrime. But I agree with Jason in that we have to move away from the idea that every RCMP has to go to the boot camp at depot and get trained, right? And this was one of the recommendations of the Mass Casualty Commission. And it's one that the RCMP has really dug their heels in. They've accepted most of those recommendations, but this is one that they're not.

they've accepted most of those recommendations, but this is one that they're not. And the new Carney government seems to have put a bit of a spin on it in accepting the Trudeau White Paper's idea of a new federal police academy, but saying it's going to be in Regina, which I guess was probably in order to, you know, because everyone in Saskatchewan was really upset with the idea of Depot being closed down. But, you know, Depot being closed down is something that I've long argued for, for many reasons.

One is Depot is where Louis Riel was hanged. And symbolically, I think that that is an issue. And the idea that we're going to recruit the best people, and you have to remember, most people going into the RCMP now are not out of high school. And I think that's right. We want older people with more life experience. But for a 28, 29 year old to put aside their life

wherever they live from coast to coast to coast, to go to Regina for six months is, I believe, a hard sell. Catherine, how do you see it? Yeah, I think I hear a lot of what Kent is saying, very hard sell. You know, especially more people are going in later. If you have families, it's hard. I think it's a very hard sell to the RCMP. They feel that place is very storied.

You know, RCMP officers are buried there. You know, there's photos on the wall. For them, I think, you know, it adds to that team. And I think that is important when you're in such a, you know, a perilous job and your life is on the line. I think that, you know, that sense of history is important. But clearly, you know, back to some of what Jason was saying, some of the training does need to be rethought.

And I think that work is happening, and there is a push to do that. If you want to catch cyber spies or foreign interference, perhaps you shouldn't be spending years learning how to make sure your car doesn't go off road when you're in rural Saskatchewan. It's very important if you're in contract policing, but perhaps not as important if you want to focus on that.

And there is a shift to have that. There's also, again, a controversial thought to bring in more civilian people to do some of this federal policing work, be it cyber crime or other national security work as well, to take that away from regular, not take it away from regular members, sorry, but to add other people who have that computer science background. So yeah, clearly learning how to shoot a gun, very important for all officers, but perhaps

not as important if you're, you know, deep in, you know, accounting information because you're trying to find some money launderers, for example. I take your point, yes. All right, with just a few minutes to go here, Jason, back to you. This clearly was a priority for former Prime Minister Trudeau. Do you have any sense yet about whether or not it is as big a priority for the new Prime Minister, Mark Carney? Well, I think we've seen from Prime Minister Carney a very strict focus on economic matters, I think driven by necessity with respect to what's going on with the United States. I think time will tell in terms of where this prime minister

decides to go with federal policing and the RCMP. We are seeing some of those signals, as Kent mentioned. But I think we really need to give this one more time to see where it goes. So I'm inferring from that that we're not sure. We're not sure yet. What I have heard is that internally at the RCMP, things are not going well with respect

to their own internal reforms. That the federal policing function is more isolated today than it has been in the past. And I think that just speaks to the need that a future government, whether it's this prime minister or the next, needs to start taking these steps forward. And in our view, in former Prime Minister Trudeau's view, 2032 offered an opportunity to start planning for that.

Catherine, you're in the nation's capital. Put your finger up. Gauge the temperature. What does it feel like right now? I don't think this is a priority for this government. I got to ask Mark Carney about this on the campaign trail. Would he take this white paper and would he carry it forward? His response was to quibble with it. Oh, it's not a white paper, it's a green paper. I know he wants to be correct, but I think that kind of perhaps missed the point. He said that he would look at it and I do think reform is and I do think reform, you know, is key to this government. It's not something that I'm, I'm getting the sense that, you know, they're right

at the gate they want to do with. Um, and I hear that, you know, obviously we're not, we're in a, you know, a bit of a, a crisis with the U S and all of that, but, you know, the contracts expire in 2032, that may seem like a long time, um, from now, um, but really it's not. Um, if you're, you know, if ultimately the government is going to say we're going to get out of contract policing, that does not leave the provinces with a lot of time to create police forces from the ground up. Lots of provinces, to some of the points that have been made, will have to find that money.

There's a lot more money than they're paying now. Some people might believe that they should be paying that, but ultimately that really isn't that long of a runway when you think that we're going to get out of it. So I hear that it's not a priority, but if he wants to be prime minister in 2032, and obviously Canadians will decide that, whoever is the prime minister then has to start thinking about these ideas and has to think of reform at least some way, perhaps knocking out of contract policing, but clearly to Jason's point, there are things going wrong at the RCMP and it is strange. I think everyone can agree

on that point. So you got to get to work soon. Last 30 seconds to Kent Roach on this. Well, I mean, you know, I think the Minister of Public Safety should consider opening up the RCMP Act. I think, you know, a separate identity and funding for federal policing and maybe training is a good idea from this white or green paper. But I would also like to see more federal delegation to provinces and municipalities of governance powers to the extent that contract policing is going to continue and we also need to facilitate exit. So if Grand Prairie or now Kelowna is thinking about it, if they want to go with their own police service they should be able to but we need to plan for that and do it hopefully in a fairly seamless way.

That's U of T law professor Kent Roach along with Jason Easton, the former advisor to Prime Minister Trudeau and Catherine Tunney, CBC Parliament Hill Bureau reporter where she specializes in covering national security and the RCMP. Great to have the three of you on TVO tonight. Thanks so much. Thank you. Thanks.