The Agenda with Steve Paikin (Audio) - Election 2025: Should We Be Paying More Attention to Education?

Episode Date: February 26, 2025

Repair backlogs. Classroom sizes. Staff shortages. Attendance issues. A pandemic that disrupted learning across the province. Ontario's education system faces a lot pressures this election. How has it fared under the PC government? What do the other parties have on offer? And are we paying enough attention to a system that accounts for almost a 1/5th of Ontario's budget?See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Renew your 2.0 TVO with more thought-provoking documentaries, insightful current affairs coverage, and fun programs and learning experiences for kids. Regular contributions from people like you help us make a difference in the lives of Ontarians of all ages. Visit tvo.me slash 2025 donate to renew your support or make a first-time donation and continue to discover your 2.0 TVO. Classroom sizes, staff shortages and a repair backlog all in the aftermath of a devastating pandemic for student learning. I think it's fair to say Ontario's education system is facing major challenges this election. Have the PC's done enough? And what do other parties have to offer? And are we paying enough attention to a system that accounts for almost a fifth of Ontario's

budget? Well, let's find out. From Scarborough, Ontario, we're joined by Kristin Reshoey, the Queen's Park Reporter for the Toronto Star. And here in studio, we have Annie Kidder, executive director and founder of People for Education. And Kelly Gallagher-McKie is also with us, associate professor of law and society at Wilfrid Laurier University. Thank you all for being here.

Well, in the interest of full disclosure, TBO is an agency of the Ministry of Education and has been part of the province's delivery of distance learning since it was created back in 1970. Today, TBO offers online secondary school courses through the Independent Learning Center and has been asked by the province to develop online courses for use by secondary schools right across the province.

So we care about education here. Kelly, let me start with you. In an election, there is so much the leaders are pushing. There's so much to focus on. Do you think education has successfully been on the radar? I think that education is a huge part of daily life, but it's not a huge part of political conversation in Ontario today.

And when you talk to people who are in schools, whether that be students or educators or parents who are deeply concerned, there that be students or educators or parents who are deeply concerned. There's a lot of concerns that schools aren't doing the job and they aren't getting the serious attention they need to thrive and support our kids to be ready for a big scary future. Annie, last time you were on the show, I understand you said we are not paying enough attention to education. Why is the political discourse not around education? Well it's kind of a great question and it's been there have been

provincial and territorial elections that have been happening across Canada and education has never been sort of one of the top issues except for some kind of semi-controversial parts. So I think as a society, we have a tendency to sort of take our public schools for granted, even though more than 90% of our kids go to them. We don't understand the kind of foundational job they do in our social and economic future. And we just sort of go, they're there, whatever, they're not sexy, maybe even not as sexy as post-secondary education. So they don't seem to, except in a crisis like the pandemic,

when they were in the news every day, they don't seem to get on the radar as a fundamental issue, which to me is even more amazing right now when the world is so messy. And obviously, I think we really should be paying attention to our schools as a place where we could be building more resilience in these, in this sort of messy world.

Kristin, I wonder if it's because of our neighbors to the south. I mean, does Trump trump everything? I mean, this election has been all about Trump and tariffs. I mean, that's why Premier Doug Ford called the election. He said he needed a four-year mandate to fight Trump and the threat of tariffs. So that has really taken up a lot of the oxygen in this election. And I think too, you know, there really isn't, as Annie said, there isn't some big controversy at the moment that the education system is dealing with in a way that, you know, parents

are super engaged about. I mean, I think, you know, in the past, we've seen things like, you know, John Tory in 2007, he was talking about funding for more religious schools. We had sex ed, pandemic, things like, you know, John Tory in 2007, he was talking about funding for more religious schools. We had sex ed, pandemic, things like that. I mean, this time, you know, teachers have contracts, they have signed contracts with the government. So and there's also been mostly labour peace in the last few years. So there's not that also sort of prompting parents to pay attention and prompting people to pay attention to the education system. And really, we haven't seen much talk of it at all. Bonnie Cromby, the Ontario Liberal leader, held a press conference, I believe it was last week, talking about

post-secondary. But really, we haven't seen talk about K-12 at all in this election. I mean, how do you do that, though? I think about the times when education was making waves. Sex ed curriculum in 2018, John Tory in 2007 when he talked about extending funding to faith-based schools. How do you do that, Kelly? How do you make it more of a priority without something that is so controversial that's rallying people up? I think it's tricky because we want to take education for granted.

We want to be confident that our kids are going to good schools that are in good shape and that are working well. And you know in some ways no news means that we're not freaking out about something. But you notice that those issues aren't about the daily work of schools. The ones that typically make the headlines are a piece of the puzzle but they're sort of around the edges. The daily work of schools for the average Canadian I would say is almost like a bit of a black box. You don't know what it is that actually makes a difference to make schools work

better for all kids and when people don't know they don't think about it. That's my guess. So it might sometimes might be a good sign if people aren't that concerned? I don't think it's necessarily a good sign. I think there's maybe a sense that they don't know what to do about it. Okay. I think people have a lot of concerns right now. You talk to educators, you talk to parents. I wouldn't say anyone's happy. But is there a quick political fix that people can get behind? Harder to get that.

Let me ask then, because the pandemic has really disrupted education in our province, students are struggling still. Kelly, let me ask, how would you characterize a system of K-12 right now in Ontario? Well, I would characterize it as a system that is really struggling. And I think there's two things I'd point to in particular. The number one is staff shortages. We aren't hiring enough educators,

and we aren't keeping the ones we have. People are very unhappy with feeling disrespected and leaving the profession in droves and so the principals announced last year they did a survey more than half of principals have unqualified staff in front of their students on a regular basis so that's a really big problem and they're having to cover so we're losing special ed teachers to cover classrooms where teachers are missing. So teacher shortage and attendance.

There's a shortage of children in our schools. And that has historically when kids are missing a lot of school, when there's something called chronic absenteeism happening, that has a big long-term impact on kids learning and outcomes. It means they're more likely to drop out, less likely to go to post-secondary. It's one of the biggest predictors of long-term futures and right now we're seeing attendance problems like we've never seen before. Wow, that is a huge issue. Annie and Kristen, I know you've been talking to principals, you brought up principals across the province.

Annie, let me start with you. What have you been hearing? Well, I think like Kelly, and we've actually been talking to principals across the country, and I think what's interesting is it's the same story across the country. So huge, huge worries about staff shortages, but also a feeling that they're dealing with an incredible amount of kind of stress and that nobody cares. Like there is a kind of you know cry into the wilderness there from people working inside schools going why isn't the world more concerned about what's happening in our schools and again I think it's really important

to note this is across the country. So people working inside schools are dealing with a lack of staff. They're dealing, they're feeling a sense that kids are more troubled now than they used to be maybe since time immemorial we've said that about kids but I think it's really true now and again this is true across the country. So for people working in schools there's a level of stress and a level and a desire to support kids to to be able to ensure that they're able to be well at school, but not a sense that they're being supported from the outside. And I think it's really, to me this isn't about money, it's about something else.

But yeah, that's the story from inside schools. Lots of stress and not a feeling that the world outside is caring enough. Not enough support. So, Kristin, in your reporting on education, do you find there's one issue that keeps pervasively coming up? I would definitely say it's the teacher shortage. That is the one issue that you hear from teachers, support staff and principals as well. You know, last week we saw a joint statement put out by all of the teacher unions and the principals councils and they were saying, look, they're trying to get

put out by all of the teacher unions and the principals councils. And they were saying, look, they're trying to get education on the agenda. They're talking about lack of teachers, lack of qualified personnel, lack of people, lack of supports in schools, violence in schools, which has been a big campaign by the unions talking about the need for more supports for special needs students in schools. They talk about underfunding of, you know, per student funding going down. These are all things that they are dealing with on a day-to-day basis. Unfortunately, these issues have all been crowded out because it's Trump and tariffs.

That's everything that people are focusing on as well as affordability. So those are the issues that are taking up the public's attention right now and not these other issues that are critical for our schools. We're talking about schools, so I want to talk about grades. Kelly, what grade would you give this government in terms of education? I'd give them a C. And honestly, that's a bit of a carryover from the pandemic, where I think they failed very deeply. There's lots of research that's come out over the long term, in the post-pandemic moment, saying schools that were closed the longest

are doing the worst, serve their students the worst. And I don't think we've made any serious commitment to catch up or cover. It's like, let's pretend that didn't happen. And when you look at life on the ground in schools, it's very clear that pandemic is having lasting effects on all students, particularly students facing extra challenges, and families.

And stress, that elements of stress and well-being, I think, have been, were accelerated by the pandemic and haven't been wrestled with. Kristin, I'm going to come to you. Grade for this government. Well, you know what? It depends on who you talk to. I think the teacher unions and the labor unions would not be very happy with this government? Well, you know what, it depends on who you talk to. I think the teacher unions and the labour unions would not be very happy with this government. I

think school boards as well, they're the ones who've identified that, you know, yes, funding has gone up every year under this government, but it has not kept pace with inflation. And I think the figure they've landed on is about $1,500 per student that they're behind. You know, they also need funding for things like CPP or EI, employment income increases, that is beyond their control, that has not been funded. And I think they've paid that in about 100 million shortfall. So for school boards, also very frustrating. I think the government has made some moves that people do like, de-streaming, you know, that's for programs and for high school students so that they're not streamed out of a university or college stream so early on.

That's a good move. Was there enough funding that came with it? I think teachers would say no. You know, the government's also focused on math and STEM and things like that, sort of a back to basics. They've introduced a reading screening in early years, which I think universally people do like. But again, though, I think it all comes down to the funding and the teacher shortage. I think that's probably the one thing you'd hear from parents that it's rotating teachers. They can't get supply teachers. They can't get qualified teachers. They don't have a teacher in their classroom. I mean there was one group in Toronto where the parents posted on social media to try and find a teacher for their kids' classrooms. So I think if you talk to those parents, not so happy. So it depends who you ask.

That would be their grade. Annie, do you have a grade? I don't have a grade, but I do have, I do think in this, in an election where we're talking about Trump and tariffs. And this is also true across Canada, that what we don't have from anybody is a kind of new vision to go, if this is the world we're living in, if that's the reality in our neighbors to the South, what do we need to be doing really deeply differently in our schools so that we're really truly preparing kids for a future that we're unsure about, but we actually know, I think, a lot about what could and should change in terms of what kinds of skills should they be getting,

what needs to change in terms of curriculum. So right now, I don't think that there's anybody out there bravely going. We need actually a whole new vision for education that deals with the reality of the world we're living in now and make sure that in Canada, which is feeling kind of insecure right this minute, rightfully so, we're thinking about how much,

we're building our next generation and how much all of our future depends on what we do in our schools. And I think that's not the message that's getting out that should be. Well, let's take a look at some of the promises in the platforms, what the vision is right now. The PC's saying it will invest 1.3 billion more to build 30 new schools and expand 15. They plan to cut red tape and standardize designs to build schools faster. They also say they will introduce a comprehensive plan to reduce distractions in the classroom.

Let's go to the NDP. They say they will add $1,500 in funding per student. It will spend roughly $830 million more per year to clear the school repair list. It plans to hire more staff in schools, including child and youth workers, and end streaming, like Kristin talked about there, which is making students choose applied or academic tracks. The Liberals, here's their plan to add $1,500 in funding per student, same as the NDP. The party wants to clear the school repair backlog.

It also wants to eliminate portables by building 90 new schools over four years. It also pledges to hire more education workers and mental health professionals. The Greens, they pledge to add 1,500 as well in funding per student. The party also wants to clear the school repair backlog. That's a big one. It will provide enhanced funding to end streaming and the Greens will also cap class sizes in kindergarten and grades 4 to 8. Annie let me start with you what sticks out to you in those platforms? So much conversation about money and not necessarily a conversation about what should we be doing in our schools for having that first and then going and what should we be spending on it. That has been a

problem for every government we've had since I've been doing this work which is nearly 30 years is that we always start with the money and we don't start with what are we trying to do, what are we trying to accomplish, what do all kids need, how do we make sure that we're doing all the sort of health promotion prevention work really really early on. That's what's not there I don't think in any of the platforms and it's always been a problem because then when we're communicating to the rest of the world about education, and the rest of the world counts because they vote, so you have to convince the rest of the voters this is worth spending money on and caring about, we have to communicate something more than, you know, $1,500 or something more than money.

We have to communicate something that has more hope and a kind of vision for the future. The language isn't there for you. The vision isn't there. The vision and the language, all of it. Kelly, for you. Well, beyond those specific points when you do look at the platforms from the different parties, there's a lot of talk about the basics right we're gonna get back to basics as Tory language we're gonna get the basics right as liberal language and I think that there's really reason to be concerned that we do want the floor

like nobody doesn't want the basics done well but I guess this is a bit like Annie when we think about when I think about my, I want them to learn a lot more than the basics. I don't think the basics is good enough for our kids. And I, you know, that's not just sort of a comfy middle class perspective. I think for all our kids we need to hope for a lot more than the basics out of our schools. And we need to support the people who are doing the work so that they can do that meaningfully and well. And so you know you look at something like extracurriculars. There are some things that students love best where they grow the most, do the most creativity

and social emotional learning. Well we don't even support that. We assume teachers are going to volunteer and when you have a burnt out workforce you get less volunteering and you get less texture around the school. We need more than the basics for our kids. And if can I add to that I think that one of the what's really important in there too is that there's no breathing room anymore so that if you are a teacher, an educational assistant, whoever, a principal, all the people doing support work, There's no room to have any kind of autonomy to go,

I'm going to make my classroom like this, or I'm going to... There isn't that freedom there. So you end up focusing on the basics, which again are obviously important. Which you need to get right. Obviously you do. I think that part goes without saying. But now, we're kind of cramming forward so that there's not that space, which is partly what leads to the stress, partly what leads to the disengagement of kids.

And that's again why it's important that we're talking about this beyond money and about something bigger than that. I take your point, Annie, that it's not just about money. But Kristen, I'm curious how much of the issues that we're facing still come down to dollar signs? And when you're reporting and talking to people in communities, like, do they care about those dollar signs when they're put up there in these platforms?

Well, it's interesting because sort of the days of the fully costed platform from campaigns are pretty much over. We saw that in the last couple of elections and this one for sure. I mean, these are not fully costed platforms. Maybe because education has not been in the spotlight, it allows them to be a bit more vague on the details.

But I mean, I look at these and yes, there are some dollar figures, but you know, if they're talking about more staffing, okay, over what period of time, how many staffers are we talking about? And where do you find them? I mean, there is a teacher shortage at the moment. So where are you going to find them? You know, the Liberals are the only ones talking about shortening the teacher education program to one year.

It was made two years, about 10 years ago, I think, just because there was a glut of teachers and there were no jobs, but now we were in the opposite situation. So the liberals are saying, let's go back to one year. But that also poses some problems. A lot of universities have made those education programs, master's programs, which you can't do in a year. But you know that also poses some problems. A lot of universities have made those education programs master's programs which you can't do in a year. You know the other thing is teachers need time to learn the new math curriculum. They've got a math test they have to pass before

they finish teachers college. So there's lots of issues like that that need to be sorted out as well. So it's not clear to me how quickly these things can be implemented when there are things like the teacher shortage that need to be addressed immediately. At the end of the day, it's students that are affected. And I think about special needs students, especially, that would need extra help. Kelly, how are they being supported in the classroom right now?

Well, I think there's been a move towards inclusion, which by and large serves students with disabilities well. We know that if you put kids off in a room somewhere else, they're less likely to learn as much and they're less likely to get the opportunities that students with similar achievement would get. So inclusion in general is a great principle, but it's pretty clear that students aren't getting the support they need and that goes beyond the education system right. If students need supports and helps and assessment and they need mental health support that comes from outside the

school but there's a two-year waiting list for those supports or a one-year waiting list for those supports the teachers get them while they're not getting help. So it really the school lives in a bigger world and when all the other pieces when housing is it's hard that's very hard on families if they're moving more they're struggling to you know when when mental health services are absent and the connections between mental health services and the schools are bad. That has a big effect on the school in general and particularly on students who are most vulnerable. And I would say if you look at the global research around the pandemic, students with disabilities were among the most affected groups and

we don't track how that group is doing relative to others, but it would be surprising. And the way the government dealt with it was spending not nearly enough money on a tutoring program that wasn't targeted to need. We don't do a very good job of saying, students need a bit more help in this way and making sure that it's happening

and holding itself accountable for delivering the support students actually need. Yeah, the mental health side, Annie, is huge. It is huge. And I think it's, you know, again, we've got a kind of generational mental health. Well, I think all of us, all of our mental health is suffering a little bit right now. But when we look at young people and all of the reports, they're pretty unanimous saying kids are really in trouble right now. So they're reports of anxiety,

depression, all of those things, really really worrying. I think that the mistake that we're making right now, and again this is across the country, is what we do is we end up spending money on supports once kids are already in trouble. So we go, okay we've got to spend more on on mental illness or supports for kids who are struggling and what we're not doing is looking at All the evidence of which there is lots to say how do we ensure they don't end up struggling with their mental health? So what are the kind of? Preventions that could we could be do if we think of how people talk about health and they go, we have an illness model, we spend billions and billions of dollars on hospitals and not enough money on health promotion and illness prevention.

So it's the same with schools and there's lots of evidence about what we could be doing differently. Again though, we need more breathing room with kids early, early on to understand themselves, others, relationships, conflict, being able to persist, be resilient, all of those things. Those are teachable, learnable skills that have to be taught and learned early so that you don't end up in quite the level of distress that we're seeing now. Hmm. Chris, I want to quickly come to you on streaming because both the NDP and the Greens have said they would end it. Just give our viewers an idea of exactly what streaming is, the pros and cons on there.

Well, I mean, Annie's probably the best person to talk about that. She did a huge report on the effects of streaming and how students who take, it was an applied versus academic level classes, more hands-on versus more academic classes. It was actually shown, and Annie I'm sure can speak to this, that kids who took applied level classes

were not going on to university. I mean, even I think taking one basically ruled university out for them. So the government did move to de-stream these classes so that students aren't sort of put into this box so early on, and I think Ontario was one of the last jurisdictions to have streaming so early. But you know, had all kinds of detrimental effects for kids. And that's something that the government has ended for grades nine and 10. I think the Toronto

District School Board, which is one of the largest boards in North America, started a little bit early with things like math, French, I know for sure, things like that. But yeah, this is something that all the parties are moving towards. And certainly this was something that the Conservative government, to its credit, did put in place. But again, it was without the supports that teachers said they needed. Annie, why don't you jump in on that? Because they didn't totally officially end it for grade 10. Boards have ended it for grade 10.

So it's still, and really the issue is, how do we keep as many doors open as possible for kids all the way through school. So lots of people say kind of unconscious streaming starts happening anyway in elementary school but there are kids are still streamed they're streamed in grade 10 and after grade 10. So what we're not doing is ensuring that our schools, our public schools are making sure that all kids have as many kind of pathways forward as they can because again messy world, rapidly changing world, kids making choices when they're you know 14 and 15 that are going to affect their whole lives because they weren't just going to university they

weren't going to college either you know so the evidence was so strong and it was also the kids who were already at a disadvantage or even more disadvantaged by it. So we've got to see this as a core issue in education that equities, like part of the fundamental purpose of public education is that every kid gets a fair chance. And you know, it's great that people are paying attention to it now, and but it needs to be built in all the way through. We need to be thinking about it in many different ways.

Yeah, and and if I can throw in two more words, if you think of the end of high school, But it needs to be built in all the way through. We need to be thinking about it in many different ways. Yeah. And if I can throw in two more words, if you think of the end of high school, we call it university and college courses. We keep separating kids by presumed ability or destination. We don't provide students or families with information about the outcomes of those choices. And in fact, they're misleadingly labeled because, you know, 70% of students who go on to post-secondary

don't take any college courses. A whole lot of them, you know, the college courses in particular are misleadingly labeled because kids who take mostly college courses don't go on to post-secondary including apprenticeships and trades which we don't track the progress into that if we cared about it we'd pay attention about what's happening in terms of getting people into the skilled trade. Okay glad we brought out streaming it was an important one. Okay if education does not move the needle

during elections how else can we really hold the government accountable for decisions on a file that accounts for 17.5 percent, 17.5 percent of Ontario's entire budget? I don't know if everybody knows that. Annie. Okay, well, I, we, this is what we're working on in my organization. We're actually talking about this across the country and we're going how do we build a whole new kind of outside of government framework with policy recommendations so it will be easy to

hold all kinds of governments to account to go these are the kinds of goals we think should be there this is how we think you could get there and we want you to report on how you're doing. So we've seen bits and pieces of that but we have to be holding them to account for more than just test scores and the basics. We have to really hold them to account for what is your vision. So if we think of, and I'm not equating this at all, but if we think of the calls to action

from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission or the Sustainable Development Goals, they were very defined, very clear, this is what we need in terms of vision. And so that's all of our job, I think, on working with people inside education and outside education to go, what should we be doing to name that new vision, but in a very concrete way so that we can hold governments to account in a new way. Kristin, let me come to you on that.

How do we hold the government accountable when it's, you know, not the top issue issue in the election? You know I think a lot of it is going to be parent pressure. I mean you know we saw parent pressure parents want smaller class sizes past governments have delivered. I think we're seeing parents speaking out now about the teacher situation and you know the rotating poor teachers that their kids are experiencing and how they're frustrated with that. We also have teacher contracts that will be coming up in 2026. That's another opportunity for the unions to push for things that they they really want in contracts, more staffing, different working conditions and things like that.

So I think we've got a couple of opportunities coming up. But in the end, you know, it does it will come down to parents, I think, and educators speaking out about the experiences that they're having in schools. Kelly, last word. That's hard. No pressure. Because, and I'm going to be really nerdy here and say we don't have the basic data on education in this province.

They actually take data away from us. We used to be able to analyze things by school income. That's now hidden in a file you need to apply for. So I think we need a lot more timely, transparent data from across the school system so that people see what's going on. I think we need goals that stretch further out because K-12 matters for kids' experiences, for their learning, but it also matters for their future. So if we know that post-secondary including skilled trades leads to longer happier wealthier lives, why isn't that our goal and why aren't we tracking who's making it there? So I would put a call out for

data if we were going to try and hold people accountable. We need more information on what's going on inside schools about the resources and the opportunities kids are having there not just some test scores and outcomes. And I think we need a really good informed public conversations on and on and on. Well so happy to be able to do that with you ladies today. Thank you for joining us on the show. Thank you.

My pleasure.