The Agenda with Steve Paikin (Audio) - Everyone In: Why Civics Is Power

Episode Date: January 27, 2025

What makes democracy different than all the other forms of government is that it actually needs everyone to get involved and have their say. TVO Today Live convenes a town hall conversation hosted by Steve Paikin that offers a civics lesson that doesn't feel like one. Civics educators, engaged citizens and people who've put their names on the ballot gather for a wide-ranging discussion that breaks down how things work to help everyone find ways to get involved and make a difference.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

I'm Matt Nethersole. And I'm Tiff Lam. From TVO Podcasts, this is Queries. This season, we're asking, when it comes to defending your beliefs, how far is too far? We follow one story from the boardroom to the courtroom. And seek to understand what happens when beliefs collide. Where does freedom of religion end and freedom from discrimination begin? That's this season on Queries, In Good Faith, a TVO original podcast.

Follow and listen wherever you get your podcasts. Politics, especially in our tumultuous times, are often overwhelmed by big events and issues. But for most people, it is the everyday, ordinary functioning of our democracy that makes a difference in their lives. We don't talk about those fundamentals very often. We assume everyone knows their civics inside and out, backwards and forwards. Well, we're not going to make that assumption tonight. We're in our studios in Midtown, Toronto

for tonight's TVO Today Live, and we are going to do something different, hold an hour long civics lesson that won't feel like one. This series is made possible by the Wilson Foundation, and we're supremely grateful to Red Wilson for his generous support, which allows us to host these kinds of conversations, which are uncommon, but we hope contribute something to our wider democratic life.

We have quite the group assembled to that end and we're going to get started with a simple question. What does every person need to know to be an involved and effective citizen? That's the question. Welcome everybody. It's great to see you all and I'm going to start right here with a title. Rachel, oh my goodness, Rachel Kalashaw is the pedagogical advisor in civic education at Elections Canada.

So get us started on that. What does everybody need to know? Great. Thanks, Steve. One of the things that we talk with teachers and students about in our work is around how can you make a difference well beyond voting. And so voting is an important part of our democracy, but what I like to think about is a civic action framework.

So people need to get involved, they need ways to get involved at an individual level. So things like signing petition or volunteering at your local community centre or any kind of actions that individuals take are really important. So it starts with voting but people should not assume that it ends with voting. Yeah, and I think in the school system and with young people in general, they tend to think, you know, they don't tend to think that those small individual actions are connected to the bigger picture. I think there's also a way that groups get formed in civil society. So people make groups and they form groups to do things and work with other groups.

And then those groups take those actions public so that they get pie in from the larger public. But none of it makes any difference unless you take it to the formal political system. So you need all four of those steps before you can have a truly effective civic action. I know everybody in this room understands a lot of the basics about civics but there will be a bunch of people watching us today who do not and to that end I'm glad we've got Nathan Tidridge here because he knows a little bit about this kind of stuff. Nathan, I hear this all the time and we're gonna get a little bit in the weeds here but you get us out. I'm running to be Prime Minister.

Now technically speaking in this country you don't actually run to be Prime Minister. Is that right? That is exactly right. Explain. I think one of the main lessons that we try to teach our students at Waterdown is that we don't elect prime ministers, we elect parliaments. And that from that parliament the government emerges. And that is I think a key understanding for our students to understand that our political system is much more complex and there are all kinds of entry points to them. It also tells them the importance of our member parliament and our member provincial parliament.

And of course an equally important part is our city councillors as well and where they fit in in our democracy. One of which we have here and we'll go to that in a second. Here's the thing, unlike in the United States where you go into the ballot booth and you will see a box which allows you to pick the president When people have an election in Canada or in Ontario They don't directly elect the prime minister or the premier right explain Yes, we elect our member of Parliament. So Canada is divided up into writings both provincially and federally and it causes

is divided up into writings, both provincially and federally, and it causes, in each writing, we're electing candidates. And this requires people in that writing to be educated on the issues and what the person who's going to represent them, whether it be in Ottawa or in Toronto, what their views are on that. And then you align your ideology with that person. Oftentimes, I think it comes to people watching the leaders debate and then making their decision,

but it actually requires much more effort and involvement than that. And teaching students about that is teaching them to be engaged and active citizens. Let's continue the lesson here, if I can continue the metaphor. We have in our midst here today, somebody who led a national political party which got

the most votes in the election in which he ran and did not win. Now this occasionally happens in this country. Aaron O'Toole is here, the former leader of the Conservative Party of Canada. Most people, I wonder or I suspect, think politics is too impenetrable, I can't get involved, it's a closed shop, it's not for me. How true is any of that? Well, thanks Steve. It's not true. It's very easy for Canadians to get involved and a lot of them do.

But part of the civics lesson is to let people know how do you get involved? How do you help a team put forward a candidate to be the member of provincial parliament or member of parliament. And that's by getting involved in the political process. Only about one or two percent of Canadians will ever join a political party. But those members decide the nominations which elect candidates for the recognized parties. And you have to be one of those normally for one of the mainstream parties, the conservatives, liberals, NDP, but increasingly green and some others in recent years and Bloc Québécois in Quebec.

It's from that group that the community will elect the member of parliament. As Nathan said, then electing a parliament and the leader of the party or the caucus with the most members becomes the prime minister. And I like to say with your intro, Steve, if only Justin Trudeau had kept his proportional representation promise from 2015, you'd have the prime minister here for this panel.

But I was proud to lead my caucus in a challenging election during COVID. But the election while national, it's also 338 individual elections all held on the same day for those members of parliament. And then the parliament, in our case a minority, goes forward and the leading party without a majority has to get the confidence of the House. And we saw for a while a deal between the Liberals and the NDP so I think it's important for people to realize your local member is very important to the Parliament to who leads the country and you have the

ability to choose that member if you're involved in the political process so every Canadian can play a role in our parliamentary democracy. You said 338 which was the number of MPs when you led the party I guess it's a role in our parliamentary democracy. You said 338 which was the number of MPs when you led the party. I guess it's going up in the next election right? 343 coming up, 343 seats in the next one. Okay pass the mic if you would to Jelena. Jelena Radojicic is the program development and outreach officer at the Legislative Assembly of Ontario. Erin just gave us the federal scene. What about at Queen's Park?

So it works very much the same way. So at the provincial level, we elect our members of provincial Parliament coming to Queen's Park. So here in Ontario, it's in Toronto, the provincial capital, very much the same way. So you elect your local MPP

who is part of a party, the biggest party with the most elected and the biggest party with the same way. So you elect your local MPP who is part of a party. The biggest party with the most elected seats will then form the government. Can I ask you that issue though about how, where's the bar of entry? Because again, people think that to get involved in politics, you either got to know somebody, you got to have a contact on the inside, you can't just really volunteer and join a campaign. True or false? That's false.

I think that there's many ways to get involved, whether it's through volunteering for a party or joining a party, through voting. That is the main way to get involved. Our democracy only works if people are getting involved in educating themselves and understanding what each level of government is responsible for. That's the first way of getting involved and that's everybody's, to say, civic duty. And yeah, I think that's completely false. Gotcha.

Nathan, pass the mic if you would to your friend Rochelle sitting beside you. Rochelle Ivory is a Canadian citizenship judge Which means you not only meet but you make new citizens when you do your job I do and I got to tell you I have seen some of these swearing-in ceremonies where people from all over the world come and They study their material and they say the oath and they become Canadian citizens and it It chokes you up right it really gets right here. Okay, so you know about this material and they say the oath and they become Canadian citizens and it it chokes you up right it really gets you right here. Okay so you know about this

what do you think we need to know about being an involved and effective member of our democracy? So what's really interesting is that when I preside over ceremonies and I have Canadians, Canadian citizens already there maybe supporting someone, they talk so much about the fact that they now feel a reinvigorated sense of being a Canadian, a pride in being Canadian, and also a recommitment to their rights and responsibilities as Canadians. And so what happens at every citizenship ceremony is that we remind everyone about what their rights are, right? So we recognize bilingualism, indigenous rights, we recognize our rights

to vote, as we've been talking about. We recognize our right to enter and remain in Canada, but we also talk about our responsibilities. And that is what I personally think is what really connects us all. Our active citizenship is embracing our rights and responsibilities, right? And so our responsibilities are, you know, one being responsible for yourself and for your family, being responsible to each other is also a very large component of our rights and our right to vote, our responsibility to vote as well. And so when people embrace their responsibilities, this is where we now see communities transforming. This is where we see people deciding to volunteer and to actively engage, whether in the civic

process or just, not just, but in their communities, doing things that are meaningful to create tangible change. You know, the last citizenship swearing in ceremony I attended was in Scarborough. And the judge who was presiding, after he finished his responsibilities, and everybody was now this new group of Canadian citizens, he said, now you not only have the rights, but you have the responsibilities of Canadians.

And one of the first responsibilities is, we're Canadians, you don't cut the line. Right? You don't butt in the line. You wait in line, wait your turn. That was a Canadian value he wanted to impart on day one. But you know what I also see is that when it's that time for photos, that everyone takes photos for each other.

That's part of what being Canadian is. This reciprocity and this responsibility to each other. Everyone in that line recognizes that everyone wants a really great picture with the judge. And so they help each other. And this is what we fundamentally talk about, volunteerism, that's a fundamental component of being Canadian, and our responsibilities to each other. And we live in a world that's very individualized,

and so it really enhances the fact that we really need to be responsible to each other and think about each other. Let's introduce Kate Marlin. She is manager of the Liberty and Leadership Program, run by the Free Market Think Tank, the Montreal Economic Institute. What would you add to our list of civic engagement here? I would say the most important thing is to be an effective advocate, Steve. So I you know I really believe in everything that my fellow panelists have spoken about and that you know there really is this perception that there's this barrier to entry in Canadian politics and

that really I would agree is not the case. But I think what's important is that when I say be an effective advocate, I don't mean that you need to become a subject matter expert on a topic or know everything about the process, but it's how does the process of politics impact your day to day? When you go to the grocery store and your chicken breast is you know five dollars more than it was the month before, how does that policy impact you? Are you struggling with affordability, with the cost of housing? And I think what's exciting is that we have this opportunity likely this year to experience a federal election but also a provincial election if the rumors are to be believed. And you're going to have people coming to your door and asking for your vote.

And they're going to be saying to you, you know, vote for me because I'm going to do XYZ for you. And if you have one issue that is particularly top of mind to you, you know, it could be the cost of food, housing, healthcare, you can have a question in your mind that say, you can ask to that person, how are you going to help me with this? And then you can compare the answers of the people that come and knock on your door and you can make them really work for you and work for your vote. And that's how you can learn to effectively advocate for yourself. So in some respects, part of being a good constructive citizen in a democracy is not accepting what you find intolerable, protesting against what you see as wrong. Have I got that right?

Exactly. You need to understand what the issue is that matters to you, understand why it matters, and then go out there and don't be afraid to ask questions to people and challenge them on it. Now I think as I look across the invited guests here today, we have only one who is actually a working politician. We have a former politician, but Amber Morley, Toronto City Councillor, you're the one who actually went out, got elected, and is a working politician here today. If I've heard this once, I've heard it a million times.

One person can't make a difference. You're now in there. What do you find? I think it's important for us to recognize and realize that one of us absolutely can't make a difference and it was what motivated me to run for office. Not once, but twice. You lost the first time. I did lose the first time and it was an incredibly disheartening and difficult process to accept

that loss. But I think it was even more, it became even more important to me to prove that it was in fact possible for an outsider, you know, with no political connections or real political acumen to get in there and to make a difference and to represent their community. Do you think you have more political acumen now that you've been in for a little while? I think I do. Just a little bit. Not a ton.

I still struggle to think of myself as a politician. Now when you say you're an outsider, I mean you beat a sitting Toronto City Councillor, somebody who'd been there for a while. He was the only one to do so, that's right. Yes. So that's hard to do, right? Incumbency matters a lot, particularly at City Hall, where name recognition matters so much. That's right. So if one person wants to try to upset the apple cart, so to speak, as you did, how do

you do it? It takes an incredible amount of hard work and community support and frankly just devotion to the task at hand. For me, I started my career in, not even my career, but I started as a volunteer and we heard a lot from our panelists about the importance of volunteerism. That's how I got my foot in the door of politics. I started knocking on doors of local candidates and really wanting to make a difference. I was a founder of a youth-led, youth-run advocacy organization.

So we really learned a lot more about the political process and how to effectively advocate, as was just discussed and encouraged. And as part of that, you really start to see where the gaps and the holes and the challenges are in the systems that represent us. As someone who has been a lifelong problem solver and stubborn minded person, I thought instead of screaming from the outside, I wanted to roll up my sleeves, get in and make a difference in an important way. So I'm proud that I'm able to do that work today. And it's been a very eye opening

experience to come on the other side of that discussion. Am I allowed to ask how old you are? I'm 35. 35, which is youngish to be in politics. But you are not by a long shot the youngest person in this room. Pass the microphone, two down if you would. Jaden Braves is 16. He's already been involved in party politics. He founded an organization called Young Politicians of Canada.

He's active in several other organizations. You and I met on the floor of the House of Commons in Ottawa. Yes, we did. Because we both went to Queen's model parliament. Yes, we did. And that makes us both big-time nerds. Yes, it does. What do you think people need to know

about the democratic institutions we have in this country? Well, I think my co-panelist today has just said it so beautifully, which is, well, you have to take action. You have to be involved in some capacity. But I think a lot of the things that people my age are asking is, why?

What's the purpose? What do you get out of that? What do you get by voting for an individual or participating democratically? And then I say, well, we'll take a look around, right? We are frustrated by a municipal issue, transportation and municipal taxes, which people don't necessarily even know the difference of between the provincial and the federal. It all just seems like a lot of institutions trying to take resources from us. If we look over at the federal side and we're talking about immigration, those are issues that truly do affect a lot of Canadians in a way that's impactful to them. And so when I look at my

peers and I see their frustrations, they don't necessarily see that taking the action to vote or participate in a party or participate in a democratic setting truly does affect the dividends of those issues. And I think that's what I've taken on, the responsibility to make sure everybody understands that we're all complicit in that system and making sure the issues that we're passionate about and care about have a meaningful end and we can see them through and we can actually see what happens in a meaningful way and make those decisions. That's what a democracy is.

We have demo in crassi, people in power, and that's what we are as Canadian citizens. I need to ask the obvious follow-up question, which is when a 16-year-old tries to knock on the door of an established political party or political system and there's a bunch of people who are way older than 16 on the other side of the door, what kind of reception do you get? Well I don't usually share my partisanship, but I'll out myself here. When I was about 10 years old, I think I disagreed a little bit with my parents' political views, and so I became a member of the Green Party of Canada joining the 2019 federal election. They welcomed me with open arms.

Why don't you come on in? Come knock on doors. That's your choice. And I remember telling my parents I was going to go to a little community meeting at the Electoral District Association and they said, oh, you're going off to a meeting. And it was quite an occasion. But I ended up becoming the youngest ever federal councillor of the party when I was 14, serving as the chair of the YGC.

And it was against other people. So really, if you want to take that liberty, if you want to be involved, if you care about the issue, you can step into it, and people will welcome you. You're going to run someday, aren't you, Jaden? Oh, if it comes to that. Very good. Butterfly, you've got a mic?

Good. Let's get you involved in this as well. You're a longtime community builder, Butterfly Gopal, member of the Jane Finch Action Against Poverty. What do you think people need to know about the grassroots activism that is also of course a huge part of our democracy? So I'd like to start by saying that in my community, the levels of government have failed us. We were a strong working class community 40 years ago and we're struggling. We're below the poverty line, we're always the worst neighbourhood in terms of equity standards.

We should just say you're talking about the Jane Fitch area which is the northwest part of Toronto. But that's also true I think with other black indigenous racialized working poor communities. So our levels of government have totally failed us. There's no new investments, there's no jobs coming into our neighborhood. So what do you as an activist do about that? So what I'm hearing from folks, the buy-in's not there. I mean every four years you've got people knocking on your door asking you to vote, but within those four years people are losing their jobs, people are losing their housing, transit's failing, there's no good jobs, people aren't getting benefits, our schools are failing. So it's frustrating. So I think

what we're doing in our neighbourhood and other neighbourhoods is organizing on the ground, talking about the issues, not waiting for the platforms to come to us with the politicians, but us being aware what the issues are and bringing it to them. Are you having impact? Well the minimum wage wouldn't have gone up if it wasn't for the grassroots organizing that was happening. The provincial government wasn't going to sign off on that until they saw a movement of workers on the ground pushing hard for the 15 minimum wage and the increments that followed. I don't think the

government would have done that. We're seeing government putting money into policing and surveillance, not into our schools, not into our transit systems. So there's a huge contrast, I think, when we talk about civic engagement. Who's engaging and who are they benefiting? Because they're not working in, what they're doing isn't working in black racialized Indigenous working poor communities. Let me pick up on that issue of engagement and go to Ken Boyd. Ken, grab a microphone if you would. Ken is the Director of Education at Civics. C-I-V-I-X is how you spell it. Civics Canada. It's a national nonprofit focused on democracy and citizenship education. There's a lot of political engagement going on in North America right now, Ken, but a lot of it is you're wrong on this issue and I hate you. You're wrong on this issue and I hate you, you're wrong on this issue

and I hate you, there is polarization maybe unlike anything else we've seen in the last half century. How do we do democracy well when there's so much polarization in the air? Yeah, I don't have an immediate simple solution for you, but I'll try to walk through some things. I mean, Healthy Democracy is one where we can have constructive, meaningful discussions about important issues that we disagree about and with people that we don't see eye to eye with. Democracy is a collective project, and if we don't talk to one another, then we're just not going to get anything done. So that's not to say that that's an easy thing to do.

As you mentioned, there's a lot of dislike of each other. And something that we actually see and have seen a trend continuing over the years in Canada is that people are liking each other less, people that we perceive as being on different parts of the political spectrum. And it's just difficult to have a meaningful discussion with somebody that you don't like.

I think that's something that's really important to keep in mind though is that our perceptions of each other are not always terribly accurate. We do like each other less but that does not necessarily indicate that we are getting further apart on the issues. And in fact if you look at Canadians on average we tend to be more aligned on issues than we think that we are. So something that we can do to try to make it easier to talk to other people is to try to put our perceptions of each other to the side, try

to focus on the things that we do have in common. And that might make it easier to dislike each other less. Aaron, grab a microphone. And I want to take advantage of not only your extensive experience in public life, but your father was an MPP at Queens Park before you got elected. And he goes back to, was it 95, his first election? Okay, so we got 30 years of experience in the O'Toole family there. Is there any way back from the current state of polarization that seems to be a feature of not only our democracy, but so many democracies everywhere?

I think there is, Steve, but I think the next few years are going to be like the last couple, polarizations high. And there's a few reasons, the economy and the pandemic, but also social media. And what social media has done is it replaced traditional media and people are in their own preference bubbles. And so algorithms years ago were tweaked by Facebook and others to prioritize angry posters sort of super users within the system and It's gotten to a point that if something's trending

Within your sort of online tribe within your sort of online tribe, politicians will pick that up and they'll see that if it resonates, they will start assessing their their own abilities based on how many likes they get. I talked about this in my last speech. I saw that change. Your last speech in Parliament. My last speech in Parliament, I was able to look back to say when I was first elected and I was in cabinet in the Harper government You know Stephen Harper used Facebook to sort of say here's the Prime Minister going on a trip You know, it was very innocuous, but then social media became very polarized and it's reflected in our society and

politicians on left and right Started to judge their own success based on how much they trended or how much their messages got likes. And that in an environment where their algorithms drive divisive posts more than happy posts is changing politics. Now I think demographically, economically, and as we get used to social media and we start realizing that the algorithms are changing us, I think we will see sort of attack back to more traditional approaches. But it is worrying and I think that will be the next few years of politics will be pushes

to the left and to the right and people in the middle having a harder time getting their message out. Amber, you want to pick up on that because this must be an almost daily feature of your life at City Hall. It absolutely is and I think it, you know, it makes our work more and more difficult. The reason I chose municipal politics is because it is one of the levels that you can just as an individual put your name on the ballot, right? And make a run to represent your community. You don't need a party apparatus behind you. Correct. You don't, exactly. You don't need a party apparatus. Correct.

You don't exactly don't have to go through a pre-nomination and get the approval of anybody else. But I think that when we consider the importance of leadership and individuals responsibilities and empowering community members and individuals, for me, that's really where the work is over these next few years. While we continue to navigate this tumultuous time, the importance of integrity, the importance of transparency, the importance of communication generally, we need to bring it back down to the human scale, right? And holding space within communities to re-align ourselves with our shared values, with our Canadian values, with our

democratic values, and hopefully create an environment where people feel, with our Canadian values, with our democratic values, and hopefully create an environment where people feel, despite where they might find themselves on an issue, that we can come together and co-create a better path forward. That is the work that we all share and we all have to do. We're either going to make a wonderful future that we can share or we're going to do the opposite. But I truly believe in the power of leadership to hold space for people to come together in a good way. Let me follow up because you heard Butterfly say a moment ago

that she thinks all levels of government have failed her community for four decades. Absolutely and I resonate with that. It's why I ran for office. I'm the first woman of African descent to hold the position that I have in our history, ever. I continue to see how communities that I am a part of and represent are disproportionately impacted by the legacies that we have inherited, right? We have a proud Canadian history but it's not all, you know, rainbows and buttercups. Black, racialized, Indigenous people continue to be disproportionately impacted in really negative ways in our society. And that shows in the numbers across the board.

I sit on the Toronto Police Services Board. And I do that work very intentionally because I know that my community has not always been well served by the Toronto police or policing generally. But the important role that our service plays in maintaining a democratic society where folks can call if someone's missing if someone's being you know criminalized in whatever way it's important that we have a service that is grounded in service and protection and so how do we make sure that there's oversight and community voice as we modernize and ensure that that service is responsive and working well for the community members that it's meant to serve.

But here's where I go back to butterfly and I say when it comes to BIPOC representation, black indigenous people of color, we have more black faces on Toronto City Council now I think than ever. The mayor of the city is a visible minority. Are you saying there's been no improvements despite all of those changes at City Hall? No, no, not at all. Right, like what's gonna happen in the next four years? Is the cost of food gonna go down?

Are we gonna have reliable transit? Are people gonna be able to make an income that they can live off of, that they're not working multiple jobs, working in temp agency that's exploiting their labour. This is governments that's been around for decades and decades and it's only gotten worse. These policies aren't changing anybody's lives unless it's rich people, white people, homeowners, business owners.

It's not trickling down in any way to our neighborhoods. I mean, I can think of the provincial government, provincial and the feds, right? You have a platform. I think Sarah Jama, right? She spoke against what was, what her thoughts were, what were her feelings. This is the former New Democrat member of the Ontario Legislature from Hamilton Centre

who was ejected from her caucus. Black woman, disabled, and removed, right? So, you know, there is no room for progressive, real on the ground space for this type of change to happen. The levels of governments are maintaining status quo. We saw during the pandemic, food prices going up. We saw during the pandemic in my neighborhood, not free internet for people to learn what's happening at their own linguistic, language, literacy level,

CCTV cameras went up in my neighborhood. So like it's a very, it's a huge slap in the face. Let me get to Kate on this. How do we get people to like political engagement when they think that politics is failing them? That's a great question and really top of mind and I appreciate Butterfly, you bringing up Sarah Jama being ejected from caucus because I think part of the issue that we have is that we have a very strong party loyalty system in Canada. Partisan politics is really for most people viewed as the way to get involved in politics generally and most people feel a little bit disengaged from that.

I grew up in downtown Ottawa my whole life, so I've been around politics, but it's never something that's discussed unless you kind of have those party allegiances. So I think something that we can do to kind of get back to your question about how we can get people to get involved in politics and not be so kind of disenfranchised

is by encouraging them to challenge those partisan loyalties. Find, as many people on this panel have spoken about, find your candidates locally who are gonna represent your interests, talk to them. Don't focus on kind of the noise of the partisanship that goes on at the top. Don't get tied up in this kind of the noise of the partisanship that goes on at the top. Don't get tied up in this kind of, you know, message control of the partisan system and

kind of look to more of those ideas. Look to what is impacting you on a day to day and try and find a champion at your municipal, provincial, federal level locally who can kind of get you to where you want to be. Let me hear from Judge Hefrey and then we'll go over to our young friend over here. Yeah, I think that what we're talking about is very much about, again, our collective responsibilities to each other. When it's all said and done, we can't live in silos and we can't be individualistic. That's what makes us uniquely Canadian, that we recognize that we're responsible to lift as we climb, that we're responsible to each other, that we speak on, that we engage with communities that have been

historically ignored and marginalized, that we use our own agency in order to advance the needs of those that don't have agency. That's what makes us uniquely Canadian and I think that that's where we have been, we have lost a lot of that over the over the last few years because people are stuck on their phones and with the algorithm, right? And so the reality is that we actually do, like it's entrenched that we have a responsibility to each other. And when we recognize that and when we embrace that, then that's where we see tangible change

happening. Jayden, you wanted to add? Yeah, I mean, I think I can talk about it from a perspective of every day going to high school, talking to my peers, hearing what their concerns are. I think the fact of the matter is we don't understand how impactful some of our actions can be. So when we have a lot of these issues that we're taking action on, and as you've mentioned that clearly you've had successes with, especially when it comes to minimum wage.

There are a lot of things that we can do as individuals to take action to make change, but the mobilization isn't there. And the civic action and education to learn how to take those actions isn't there either. So when we have a whole series of issues that we know are affecting us, young people look around and say, okay, well, we're just in despair from the system. And it's not necessarily despair from the system. And it's not necessarily despair from the system, but rather not knowing how to take the first step forward, which is fully reasonable given the resources that young people are

being equipped with today. And in light of social media and the harms that we're seeing exposed to one another that young people under 18 are getting access to, and then basically firing themselves up to take negative action and to speak out about things that they don't necessarily have a full grasp on because they're not engaged in the issues. It just continues this negative spiral of self-loathing and disappointment in a system that actually might lift us up.

But if we don't take action in that meaningful way and we're not empowered to, we're just not going to. Rachel, you wanted to add? Sure. I just wanted to highlight the work that teachers are doing right across Canada, where civic education is mandatory curriculum in every province and territory, and that teachers have the opportunity in the classroom

where they have kids in person to have those conversations with each other and to practice engaging in conversations with whoever happens to be in the room on those issues that matter to you. And I think that there's a way that, you know, it's important for all of us to have those conversations but it can start well before you are of voting age and that those conversations are really important. That sounds good in theory. We have a teacher here who's going to tell us whether it actually works in practice.

I think we've got a couple of issues and one is the in-person point is critical. But the vast majority of students right now, certainly in this province, are taking civics online. And that means that these face-to-face conversations aren't happening. In my classroom, when I do have them face-to-face, I find that learning the story of our democratic, of our democracy, where is our democracy come from and how is it formed here on this land? And then a critical piece of that is treaty education. What is a treaty? What were they meant to be in this land? How can we bring ourselves to that? What is that relationship between

the Crown and Indigenous people? Okay, you've raised that. Help us understand it now because we hear this. Canada is a treaty nation. What does that mean? Well, that means living in relationship, talking about ideas of reciprocity, talking about love, like the love between a brother and a sister, engaging with our treaty partners, knowing the territory that you're on, applying that to housing, applying those principles to the environment, to how we interact with each other, and even to local student government, how can we apply those principles of treaty into how we run our school?

And if we start that in students' lives in really meaningful ways, even within the school and with the relationships that they form in their own communities, then it can only grow, we can only create the country that we aspire ourselves to be. I'm going to do one more sort of fact check follow-up here, okay? Do the teachers who teach civics really want to teach civics or is this the course they get stuck teaching because the principal tells them they have to? In Ontario, civics is taught at the grade 10 level and it's a half credit course.

And so what that means is, is that it's not a formal teachable. And so what often happens is, it is given to teachers whom they need a few extra lines in order to stay at the school. And that's getting even worse now that it's going online. So the answer to your question is, unfortunately, there may be a passionate teacher at the front of the room, but they most likely don't have political science or an understanding of our political system. That's best case, and worst case would be they want to stay in the school, they want to be a good teacher, but civics is not really that priority.

Okay. Jelena, you got a microphone? Good. Tell us, if you are a citizen who wants to get some kind of change happening at Queen's Park, how much do you have to know about civics to get that done? Well, not really a lot. One main thing that I, through my travels around Ontario for work, one main thing that I want everybody to understand is that the Parliament building is open to them. So even if they don't have a lot of knowledge, they can come in and learn. They can come in. We have plenty of people that are just waiting to answer any questions they might have. They might come in and watch

the House in session to really start building, learning those building blocks to becoming a more informed citizen. Now, I understand that maybe not everybody is very interested in politics, but coming and visit, and it doesn't have to be very political. You can come in and just see the building. And we have, well, I run our programs, our model parliament program, you mentioned it a moment ago. So that's for students from grades 10 to 12 who are very interested in politics. But then we also have a youth arts program and I think that having more people just come and interact with the space

and interact with people who are very well educated and well versed in what's going on. And just asking questions, just out of curiosity, how does this work? How does that work? And getting those tools and then talking about social media. I think even knowing the bare minimum of how our system works here in Canada and who to talk to and understanding who to ask for other contacts will help you kind of have a toolkit when reading news online on social media. We're very very inundated with American news for example and their system works completely differently and I think it's very very important important. I'm going to push back a little bit on this,

but I'm going to push back with Erin. Erin, when I was a kid, you could walk in the front doors of Queens Park and nobody would talk to you about anything. They wouldn't ask you where you're going, do you belong here? You could walk in, you could go up to question period, you could look around at all the history of the building. It's a gorgeous building.

It's phenomenal. I think it's the most beautiful building in the province. And that was the way things normally happened. If you go to Queens Park today, I'm not saying you're going to be strip searched, but you're going to go through a process of a lot of security before you get one inch inside the front door. And then if you actually want to go wander around the building you're going to get asked every two

seconds you can't go there you can't go there and you were on Parliament Hill and it's even worse there. How does politics put out the message that we want to be open for people to explore and discover when it's really kind of not the case if you're actually trying to go to the seat of government of your country or province? Yeah, our legislatures and our parliament are becoming a bit like airports. It is a sign of the time, Steve, but this is a great discussion because civics is not just taught in grade 10. It's taught in grade five as well.

As a member of parliament, every time the House wasn't sitting, I wanted to be in one of my schools. Harder when I was leader and a cabinet minister, but in my, especially my first few years, As a member of parliament, every time the House wasn't sitting, I wanted to be in one of my schools. Harder when I was leader and a cabinet minister, but in my, especially my first few years, I loved going into the grade five class. They had so many questions, they knew nothing. So I think if the buildings or some of the online discourse seems a bit daunting, we should ask your MP, your MPP, your, your civic counselor to come into the classroom, to come and participate in debates in my elections in Durham.

Several high schools hosted debates. I went to every single one because I wanted people to know whether you're voting for me or not. I will try and represent everyone, not just the people that vote for you. One thing I want to add to those, Steve, and I think it's very important for younger people to think about, I have a podcast called Blue Skies, and I just had Darryl Bricker from Ipsos. Canadian pride, especially with young people, is at its lowest in our history.

At a time, we need that pride as we're somewhat under attack from some of the commentary from the incoming US president. We need to be proud of our country while we commit to rectify the the errors and the tragedies of the past including reconciliation. But teaching about our democracy, teaching about where we want to strive to be is part of that. And I think when I was leader we had our flag down for weeks and weeks and weeks. We've got to as a country be better at talking about where we want to be in the future, how we want to strive to really meet the commitment of Canada,

but also be very proud of the country we are. One of the world leading democracies, inclusive, diverse country with incredible people. There's a lot to be proud of as we commit to be better and I think we haven't gotten the balance right on that and we're seeing it especially with young people so I think that's why I agreed to come on this program. It's important to have these conversations. I am happy to have you plug your podcast and let me plug your substack which I read faithfully. You're a great columnist as well. So I hope you'll keep doing that.

Right back at you. Rachel, I want to ask you, because Aaron mentioned representation. And Aaron said even though he might have only got elected by half the people in his riding, he felt he represented 100% of the people in his riding, even those who didn't vote for him. I don't know if that's still the case with all the people who get elected nowadays. I mean, I certainly hear a lot about, well, we've seen it in the United States, for goodness sakes, where some people have said, look at those people in California who didn't vote for us. We're Republicans, and that's a Democrat state, so why should we bother helping them? How do we get back to a notion of the person who wins the seat may only have got 35, 40, 45, 50 percent of the

votes but they're responsible for representing everybody? I mean that's how our system works. It's supposed to work that way but it doesn't. I think I think part of it is knowing that knowing that you can get involved in all kinds of ways, not just at election time, but all these other ways like being a community builder or working together and making those issues that you care about really prominent either in the media or in your community. But I also think that there's lots of other ways that are, for example, you can work at the polls on election day two and you can see how our democracy functions and all the safeguards that are

in place and you don't even have to be 18. Jayden could work at the polls if he wanted to in the next federal election, if he wasn't being a party volunteer. So there's lots of different ways that people can get involved. And you do get paid. It is not a volunteer position. And we need people to work in every community in Canada. You don't go to Ottawa to work at the polls.

You work at the polls down the street in your community centre or at your school or at your wherever. Judge Evry. Could I also just add that, so especially tied to municipal elections, you can also sit on agencies, boards and commissions and those are normally tied to municipal elections but also you know there's various agency boards and commissions that exist on a federal, provincial, and municipal level. I personally sat on my public library board for eight years, and I also sat on the Council of the College of Midwives of Ontario. What was the value in doing that?

So the value for me personally was that, you know, the library was a very important place for me. When I first moved to Niagara-on-the-Lake, it was the first place I went with my children. It was a place I felt comfortable and safe. And so I wanted to be able to not just lend my expertise, but also to be able to have, I guess, a say in not just the way that the library operates, but also to speak on behalf of those who don't normally get a voice at that table. And so whether it's diversifying collections or whether that is ensuring that there are computers there for the less fortunate to be able to use.

When I sat on the College of Midwives, it was about speaking on behalf of black and racialized women who, especially when we're talking about maternal health, have adverse outcomes. And so wanting to be able to affect policy and wanting to be able to you know kind of provide some input that isn't normally there and so there are so many things whether it's how tall your grass is going to be or whether you're going to sit on your airport commission or whatever it is that those are also ways to tangibly get involved they're kind of mini government and a way for you to be able to connect with the things that are meaningful to you and then you know maybe that might

influence you to kind of take it further. Ken? Yeah I mean something that we've been talking about here is a lot of the ways that people can get involved in the political process and at the same time we've also heard that pride in Canada from young people is at an all-time low, as we're hearing here. And I think that one of the problems, especially when we are talking about young people, is how do they perceive politics? How do they perceive politics in the country? Something that we see that's really interesting is that if you ask young people, are you interested in politics, the answer tends to be lukewarm to cool.

If you ask them, are you interested in social issues? They are extremely interested. Just the numbers skyrocket. So something that I think is really important is that when we present politics, right, when you know when I was young, when I was a teenager, I perceived politics as being something that is people arguing with each other. It's combative. It's something where nothing ever gets done. Why would I want to participate in that?

But if we present it as something that really is about your local community, about things that affect you directly, then that I think can be, you know, encourage people to maybe have a little bit more pride and also get involved more. And pass the mic to Jaden because I want to fact check that right now. When you try to get your, you're 16, when you try to get your fellow high school students interested in politics, make the pitch. What do you say? Well, before I make the pitch, I want to look at federal parties right now, specifically a party that's up and rising and we see a lot of negativity, honest negativity, and

it's driving people against each other. And so I think when I'm talking to our leaders and I'm having meaningful meetings with them, talking about what young people care about frequently, another message I want to send is consider young people pay attention to your content. They see what you post on social media. Is negativity really a Canadian value? Is shutting down an opposition party and telling them that they're awful and that they don't represent Canada and that what they're doing is horrible, is that a Canadian value? And when we start to go that way, I think that's really the aspect that divides and totally alienates young people.

I'm not sure they care that much because young people disproportionately don't show up to vote, and they care more about people who do show up to vote. Because they're repulsed by it, Steve. It's repulsive. It's repulsive. And it's not role model ship. It's not anyone. A lot of these individuals are not people that I want to look up to, I want my future kids to look up to or my peers to look up to. So what's the pitch? How do you get people involved? Well, for one, you're affected by the issues that these individuals unfortunately make or not unfortunately make if you're potentially at the table. So approach your MP and be involved

in their constituency office. There's the first one. If you don't like something that's going on in your community or if you like something a lot and you want to empower it, get involved, actually take action. All of these contacts are public. I think people don't maybe see that there's an easy way in the door. And then likewise, we have to make sure that parliamentary offices are keeping up to date with their constituents. But I think the first step is to be honest with you and very, very simply, if you are a young person and you're fired up about a social issue, understand that that's actually a political issue and it's something that

you can be involved with actually changing in your country in a much greater way than you might see in the immediate, but down the line things do change and things do happen. Nathan. Schools are microcosms of the greater society. And so, and we've become increasingly siloed, both within the school system, but also in society in general. And a lot of the suggestions that we're making here, I think would be really effective in making kids more engaged. I think a big part of it is we have to put the phones down.

And we have to get out into the community. We have to visit Queen's down and we have to get out into the community. We have to visit Queen's Park and talk to the politicians. We need to talk and listen with community members. Have you done field trips for your students to Queen's Park? It is very difficult for teachers right now to get out of the classroom. Because? Funding, liability concerns, paperwork. And so the push I think for teachers now is to stay in the classroom and this is compounded further

by going online. And so wonderful programs like the Civic Student Vote, you can't do that online. You can't engage with local charities. We have a wonderful program with YPI initiative. It's a youth philanthropy initiative based here in Toronto which gets $5,000 to local charities as a final assignment for our students and we've raised over $80,000 in our school. That program will be discontinued now because so many schools are going online and they can't operationalize you have to do that face to face they have to be going out into the community and the trend right now is to not have kids go out into the community so how do we build community when we can't interact

with the community? Yellin' or noes? She's got the answer. So I actually might have a solution. So one of our biggest kind of knowing that coming to Queen's Park is not always easy with buses and everything. Security. But actually a grade five group can come right in. But I do understand that there is a lot of things considering the climate and everything that's going on. But one of our biggest, well my personal biggest goals this year is to work more on our outreach.

So we do go straight into the classrooms, especially for classes that are outside of the GTA that can't as easily come to Queens Park. What does that mean? When you go to the classrooms, what does that look like? So I really try to replicate our program that we have at Queen's Park. I come with costumes and pins and tie and we dress up kids as a speaker and the clerk and the sergeant at arms.

So a lot of grade five groups who are learning about the three levels of government and activities with them to really engage with what they're learning, but through having someone else come that isn't their everyday teacher, I think that makes a big difference. Very often we're in their gym. We set up a whole mock debate on whether they should go to school four days a week or five days a week or five days a week or we try to find a topic that will engage all the students. With grade 10 groups we

are learning more about the legislative process so that from the get-go they're understanding how laws are passed in Canada. Can you get to their parents as well? So that's another thing, yeah, so a big thing that I really try to teach the students that I'm talking to is even if you personally aren't interested in politics, I think that everyone should be at least a little bit. But even talking to your neighbor,

talking to the person beside you and just, oh, I learned this today. And then someone could be be, oh I never actually knew that. I feel like a lot of us, especially that are here today, are surrounded by people who kind of work in politics in some shape or form or surrounded by people that at least know the basics of how, like I said many times, our three levels of government, even just the most basic, mundane parts of our system, a lot of people don't know that. And I'm kind of shocked by it.

You know who knows it? The people that Judge Ivory swears in. They know it because they've got to learn it. So we actually. People who've been here for a while who don't know it. Butterfly. You wanted to pick up on the story. I think when you referred to me as a community builder,

I'm a grassroots organizer. I've been a frontline worker for over 25 years. I've been in the healthcare, working at a CHC and now at a legal clinic. So it's all interconnected. and I think when we talk about organizing and mobilizing that's happening every day on the ground. It's not just Jane and Finch action against poverty, it's TTC riders, it's just TCA for migrant workers, it's justice for workers. There is organizing happening all across this country and for us to think that we're not talking to each other,

we are talking to each other. We're organizing, we're building our own platforms. We're understanding the issues and how it impacts us. And we're making it in a way that's accessible for folks who are new to the country, who don't speak English, who might not be able to read. So how are you gonna be able to speak to these issues that are impacting you

if you don't have those kinds of spaces and mechanisms? And the levels of government don't have that kind of opening or access. City Hall also has a metal detector now. When I ran for city council, I ran for school board trustee. I went to my community and we developed a community platform.

So I didn't walk into City Hall wanting to be School Board Trustee and I also ran with a comrade. Just to run. We had direction from the community directly from the community to know what they're asking for. So I don't wanna minimize that, you know, we're not So I don't want to minimize that, you know, we're not talking to each other or we need to, you know, talk to each other.

That's happening. That organizing is happening right now. There's been a whole conversation around the Jane bus. You've got homeowners and you've got TTC riders. And the polarization is I'm a homeowner, I pay taxes. So I don't want a Jane Lane bus, right? And that's the issue. It would take two or three more minutes for that driver to get around versus somebody on the bus that's taking an hour and a half to get to work.

I got a minute to go here. Yellen, if you would give the mic to the guy who was almost Prime Minister. I want to hear him. I want to give him the last word today because your final speech in Parliament Parts of it were kind of dark Aaron and you weren't necessarily all that optimistic about where this Democracy of ours is going if we keep going the way we're going. How do you feel about it now? we need more conversations like this Steve and Our country is incredible. We've got a bright future.

And while there are some clouds on the horizon at times with the polarization, the more we have conversations like this, the more we engage the younger generation. We've talked about some ways. There's also forum for young Canadians. I used to go to their dinner every year bringing Canadians from all across the country. These are young men and women who are idealistic and want to see that Canada be the best and the most free and the most inclusive country in the world.

We have all the right ingredients. I do think we have to put the phones down. We have to hear the other side. You have to be willing to have conversations with people you may not agree with but disagree without being disagreeable. And I think the more we engage and the more we you know sort of embrace our democracy I think we will get through these polarized times and TVO and conversations like this is a big part of it. Let the record show we just had an

hour-long conversation and nobody looked at their phone once. So it can be done. Well done everybody. Thank you very much for what was really a truly wonderful last 60 minutes of our lives together. Thank you. Thank you. And we also want to thank again the Wilson Foundation for making this all possible.

They allow us to do these kinds of conversations with, as we suggested, a really amazing group of people here. For all of our past episodes of TVO Today Live, please visit our YouTube channel. That's youtube.com forward slash at TVO Today or go to our website, tvo.org slash TVO Today Live. I'm Steve Pakin. Thanks for joining us and good night from the William G. Davis Studio in Midtown Toronto. TDO Today Live is made possible by the generous support of the Wilson Foundation. you