The Agenda with Steve Paikin (Audio) - Finding Safe Haven for LGBTQ+ Refugees

Episode Date: June 13, 2024

Requests for asylum in Canada from 2SLGBTQIA+ refugees are popping up from every corner of the globe, driven by hostile environments and laws targeting the community. The Canadian government has partnered with civil society organizations to welcome those facing persecution in their own countries, but are we and other states doing enough to protect this vulnerable minority? For insight, we welcome: Aleks Selim Dughman Manzur (they/them), co-executive director at Rainbow Refugee Society; Adrienne Smith (she/her), principal lawyer at Smith Immigration Law; Bali Ali (they/them), queer human rights defender; Devon Matthews (she/they), head of programs at Rainbow Railroad.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

From epic camping trips to scenic local hikes, spending time outdoors is a great way to create lasting memories to share with friends and family. This summer, TVO is celebrating the natural wonders that inspire unforgettable adventures with great documentaries, articles, and learning resources about beloved parks in Ontario and beyond. Visit tvo.me slash Ontario summer stories for all this and more. And be sure to tell us your stories for a chance to win great prizes. Help TVO create a better world through the power of learning. Visit TVO.org and make a tax-deductible donation today. Requests for asylum in Canada from 2SLGBTQIA plus refugees are popping up from every corner of the globe, driven by hostile environments and laws targeting the community.

The Canadian government has partnered with civil society organizations to welcome those facing persecution in their own countries. But are we and other states doing enough to protect this vulnerable minority? Let's ask in London, UK, Devin Matthews, head of programs at Rainbow Railroad. In Vancouver, British Columbia, Alex Salim-Dugman-Manzur, co-executive director at Rainbow Refugee Society. And with us in studio, Adrian Smith, principal lawyer at Smith Immigration Law. And Bali Ali, a queer human rights defender who Rainbow Railroad helped relocate from Pakistan. Welcome, everybody. Thank you so much for joining us virtually and also in

studio. Devin, I'm going to start with you. Last year at Rainbow Railroad, you got the highest number of requests for help, 15,000 people, from persecuted 2SLGBTQIA plus people around the world. I understand you believe this number to only continue to grow. Why is that? Yeah, thank you for having me today. We see this number climb year over year. I've been with the organization since early 2018

and every year we've been in a steady increase of requests for help from around the world. Now, right now we're seeing this increase as a result of backsliding in LGBTQI rights and recognition of identities and access, as well as the anti-gender movement that's kind of spreading throughout many countries around the world. And so we're seeing this as a result of crises, as a result of backsliding in rights, and persecution kind of worldwide. But we're also seeing it because people are increasingly becoming aware of Rainbow Railroad and what we do and seeking our help because we're one of the only organizations out there doing

exactly what we're doing. All right, I want to take a step back, not here from Canada, but a global perspective. There are currently over 60 countries that criminalize and prosecute queer folks. We can even go further when we look at countries that legislate the death sentence. Do you see a rise in homophobia and transphobia happening internationally, Adrienne? So absolutely. I think we see even, you know,

with our neighbors in the South and the United States, I think we've seen a lot of anti-trans laws that have, you know, happened in the United States. And I think we've seen a lot of anti-trans laws that have happened in the United States. And I think there's been a rise of hate crimes within Canada directly. And then, you know, we can see it as an immigration lawyer. We have so many people that are fleeing these countries where it's illegal to be LGBTQ.

So when your life is at risk and there's a law that says that just because of who you love that you could be put in jail we see a lot of people fleeing persecution from all over the world alex same question to you are we seeing a rise in homophobia and transphobia happening internationally well definitely and thank you for having me today as well um definitely we're seeing a rise. Now that rise is not only happening in the global south, but it's also happening here in North America, throughout the U.S. and also in Canada. But specifically in some countries, there have been some legislation that have imposed a capital punishment for LGBTQI refugees, and other countries are following suit and at the

same time the persecution of LGBTQI people is not only based on state-sponsored homophobia and transphobia through legislation but it's also society or their families and so it's a widespread phenomenon right now and I think a refugee we also seen a rise in the number of people seeking out our support. Bali, Rainbow Railroad helped you relocate from Pakistan last year. You marked one year I believe in February. What's it like being a queer human rights defender? Back home it was a challenge every day because it was obviously an underground community which is still running right now. Till today we are still working, we still have our safe houses back home, we're still trying to give them legal help, relocate them and support them in whatever ways we can.

So every day in Pakistan being a defender or a community leader is a challenge. A scary challenge but somebody has to take that part and help them. Tell me about the advocacy work. You're talking about safe houses. Walk us through for people who might not be familiar. So basically, we started off from one city, which is Karachi. That was the initial city that we started off from. And then the same thing as Rainbow River got more applications, people reach out to them because they are open. But we were underground and still we came to know

like people reaching out to us to help them, especially the LBQ sector in Pakistan. There were so many women there closeted. They're hidden. They cannot openly be lesbians or queer or bisexuals. So they start reaching us out. We made, first we started with the WhatsApp group. We got a lot of people, you know,

they wanted to be a part of it. And then there were cases where domestic violence was there. Their families were abusive toward them. So we rescued them. So in Pakistan, there's a law, which we call it the independent affidavit. That says that, you know, I'm my own guardian. I don't, it's like basically disowning yourself

from your family. So we have couple of lawyers on board who were from the queer community and they stepped in to be a part of the queue. And they were there as soon as we used to get a person in the safe house, we used to ask them if you're ready, we used to give them a few weeks to decide. If you really want to disassociate yourself from the family and be a part of us, or be a part of your own. We are not going to be here forever, but we are going to support you as much as we can.

And then, yes, that document, we used to hand it off to them, to the police stations nearby, that if their family tried to attack them or tried to find them, they have this document that they cannot be harmed or nobody can touch them. They're safe. I imagine you have a lot of people telling you you're brave for the work that you do. But you probably say, I'm just trying to be my honest self. Yeah. I'm curious, you know, I gather that you reached out to Rainbow Railroad after an unfortunately traumatic incident.

You were attacked. Are you comfortable sharing that story with us? Yeah, sure. I mean, I think it's what I believe that it's related to a documentary that I did with BBC. And that whole thing got related to people knowing that I live in the same neighborhood. And that's what instigated them knowing that I live in the same neighborhood. And that's what instigated them to figure out what really I'm doing. Before that, they were like, okay, there's this person who lives there.

A lot of girls come here. There's no guys because it's stigma in Pakistan. If you're a single woman staying someplace and alone, and then men are walking in that consider you as you're doing some escort services or you're into sex work but then the good part was only women were coming in and out of the house so they were like okay this is safe you know whatever is happening it's nice but after that um or maybe i don't know maybe that was the documentary was a reason or somebody snitched about our safe house something happened that got them furious and they came in to attack me. And the attack lasted for almost three hours. Oh, wow. Yeah. I am so sorry. No worries.

Alex, I'm going to come to you and Devin. You know, Alex, your organization is a pioneer in helping prosecuted members, persecuted members rather of the community resettle in Canada. And Devin at Rainbow Railroad, you launched a historic partnership with the government just over a year ago. I'm going to start with Alex can you break down for us sort of the two different pathways for resettlement and what exists here in Canada? Yeah thank you so besides the general pathways of resettlement that are also open to LGBTQI refugees, there's also two tailored pathways, and one of them is the steward by Rainbow Railroad, and I'm sure Devin would be able to talk about that one in more in-depth detail. But Rainbow Refugee Society has a collaboration

and a partnership with the Government of Canada to steward the Rainbow Refugee Assistance Partnership. And that is a collaboration that allows an Indian permanent residence and citizens to sponsor an LGBTQI refugee who is in a third country, who's in a host country at this moment, to bring them over to Canada and then to provide with settlement supports, financial supports, and then to provide with settlement supports, financial supports, and emotional supports for one year. So this has allowed for over 14 years now, since 2012, Canadians from the LGBTQI community and from the broader community to come together, fundraise resources and monies, and then provide support to people who are coming into the country. So that is through the private sponsorship program.

And then the other pathway is through the government sponsorship of refugees, which is the program that is now being steward by Rainbow Railroad. All right. Well, Devon, let's get you in on that. Yeah. So, I mean, in partnership with Rainbow Refugee and other organizations involved in the Borders to Belonging Coalition, Rainbow Railroad really fought for years and years to kind of, you know, make the case to immigration refugees and Citizenship Canada that LGBTQI refugees are being systemically sidelined within the typical refugee processing apparatus internationally. And what that means is that folks, for a number of reasons, are not being identified and not being cared for throughout the process of refugee identification and resettlement through government-assisted refugee pathways. And so we really advocated alongside the coalition and through tireless work, we're able to achieve a formal partnership with IRCC last year that allows us to identify and refer LGBTQI highly at risk persons from around the world to become government-assisted refugees in Canada. Now, ultimately, the decision-making comes down to the government of Canada, but the identification and support of those individuals

is currently being stewarded by Rainbow Railroad. All right, let's talk legal talk. So that means I'm coming to you. What challenges can come up in the process of determining one's eligibility as a refugee when it requires them to prove their sexuality or gender identity? Yes, that's a good question. I think for a lot of my clients, they don't have any proof of their sexual orientation. So when they are living in a place where they are basically hiding every part of that identity, I was actually talking to a client yesterday who's a gay man from Jordan. We were talking about what proof he could use to prove his sexual orientation. And he was telling me, you know, all of the photos that he had of his boyfriend, all of the text messages, everything was deleted because you don't want to risk having that identity exposed.

It's just such a different barrier that he faces versus, you know, if you asked me for proof of my sexual orientation, I'd give you my marriage certificate to my wife. It's very different. So that's a huge hurdle that a lot of my clients face with proving their sexual orientation. Are there myths, or rather, what are the myths that decision makers should avoid when trying to decide if someone's sexual orientation is genuine? I can imagine, you know, the journey that people have to make first to get here and then have to prove it when there is no documentation stuff. Are there stuff that decision makers need to sort of think about? Yes, there's a number of myths that I think we see in the decision-making process. I think one of the biggest is that when my clients come to Canada, they would immediately

become involved in the LGBTQ culture and community in Canada. That they would be participating at the pride parade that's happening in a couple weeks. And the reality is, for a lot of my clients that have faced very traumatic incidences like Bali, then often you're not up to doing that. You're not up to being involved within LGBTQ culture in Canada,

or you may not see yourself reflected in that community right away. Yeah. Bali, we heard through your story sort of the violence and persecution of queer folks that others face around the world. But this violence also affects sort of what we consider basic rights, like renting or working and stuff like that. Can you paint us a picture of sort of the challenges there? and stuff like that. Can you paint us a picture of sort of the challenges there?

So yeah, I mean, being a woman in any Islamic country is, I believe, is a stigma to the whole society. The rules are totally different than a single man going out and finding work or getting a place. No, it's difficult if you are in Pakistan and they know you're a woman. You need to get a guarantee from your dad. If you're married, your husband.

If you have a brother, if your dad is no more, so you have to get it. Somebody, maybe your uncle, has to be one of the guardians to sign a lease. And in my case, I didn't have any. So I ended up paying more rent because that guy was doing a favor on me. For giving me that apartment, which was the first apartment I rented out was doing a favor on me for giving me that apartment which was the first apartment I rented out was in a very shady area even I was scared to go down even to get groceries it was such a shady area but because I needed a roof on my head so where people were paying few thousand I was paying a lot just to get that apartment and what is it like now? Is it now being here in Canada?

Here in Canada? I believe the rents are pretty high, even for a new person to sustain. So the rules are still a little different because if you tell them that you are on any of the housing program, they don't accept your application. They want you to give your

eight months or six months credit history and then your job letter while you tell them that you don't have a job. You just recently stepped in and you don't have a credit history because you're making a credit history. But this is the requirement they look for, which feels very discriminated in a way that, you know, somebody's paying on your behalf. Accept us in a good place rather than, again, we have to find those places which are not good areas or the surroundings are different than what you're expecting or where you want to be.

So yeah, these discriminations are also here. All right. Well, we'll touch on that a little later. But Alex, I want to bring you in. You just came back from consultations in Geneva where you encouraged other nations to tailor pathways for resettlement solutions. I understand it was also a groundbreaking presentation as well. Tell me a little bit about that. How did it go?

Yeah, it was great. Thank you so much for asking that question. So we participated in the CRCP, which is the Consultation on Resettlement and Complementary Pathways. Now, this consultation with a different name has been around for over 25 years, and it brings together the UNHCR, which is the UN Agency for Refugees, States, Representatives, NGOs, representatives from civil society, refugee and lived experience people together to have conversations about resettlement pathways and complementary pathways. And like I said, for over 25 years, this consultation has been happening. And throughout those 25 years, there has never been officially as part of the agenda, any conversation or any panel regarding LGBTQI

refugees. There has been some side events here and there, but it has never made it formally part of the agenda. Now this year, the consultation was organized by Australia and some of us who have gone to Australia previously approached really strongly to have LGBTQI refugee presence formally in the consultation. For the first time on the third day on a plenary session, there was a plenary on LGBTQI refugees, and we were able to talk about third country solutions or resettlement pathways. And in that plenary, we were, you know, in front of a lot of state representatives and really appealed to them to provide Tanger Pathways for

LGBTQI refugees for third country solutions. And the reason being is that many people who are in close countries, so who, for instance, if someone is from Iran and they have crossed the border to Turkey, they may not have a durable solution in Turkey. They may still face the same persecution that they face in their countries of origin. So we need third country solutions to give them a durable solution and a permanent pathway to safety in other countries. So we hope that it was effective. We received a lot of very good feedback. A lot of people came to us to speak afterwards saying that they were inspired and

that they were thinking of talking also and having partnerships with the government surrounding other resettlement solutions for LGBTQI refugees. Very good. Ali, you say, I've watched a video where you say that the Rainbow Railroad is like a paramedic service and you kind of hinted that there's obviously still a lot of work that needs to be done. Yes, you're here but there is some some more there but what do you mean by a paramedic service i mean i'll be very honest what i like about rainbow river they were clear with their agenda you know there were no lollipops or there were no hopes or there were no rainbows they're like okay we're going to pick you up from one space and we're going to get you here and this is what we're

going to do so yeah they're like my paramedics because I reach out to them and I think the day I was sending emails out, I was in a state of just getting out of Pakistan and they were the only one who responded to me, which was real positive for me because nobody was coming back to me. They were the only one. And when I discussed my whole case with them, immediately there was a caseworker allotted to me.

So everything was very organized. They booked my ticket. They even helped me with some finances back home. And then they booked my ticket and they got me here. Somebody picked me from the airport. And then this is how it all started. And they were very clear that this is what our job is. Now from here onwards, we're going to give you to another link to another nonprofit.

And from there, you're on your own own so they were pretty clear with their agenda there was no hopes after that you know we're going to build your life you're going to give you love no this is what I like about rainbow redwoods they were pretty clear what they doing Devon do you mind me asking is is there more that needs to be done from that step moving forward in terms of the organization? But also, I imagine it's great to see, you know, to have Bali here, but obviously there can be more for people once they get here. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, Bali was the kind of recipient of a particular program, which is an emergency evacuation program. So it is just as Bali has

described it. It is an ambulance service, if you will. So it really is taking someone from point A and in a really urgent fashion, relocating them and connecting them with organizations on the ground that do more robust settlement work. Now, we also do have a whole suite of other programmatic services that we offer depending on the person's unique situation and their pathway that they're moving through. Right. So we have pathways that work with the government of Canada to support individuals through up to 12 months worth of their first year in Canada, as Alex had mentioned before, through the Rainbow Refugee Assistance Partnership. And there's other programs as well that kind of look at more longer term solutions or medium term solutions in other countries in Europe and in the United States.

So we really, really try to take advantage of every possible pathway and opportunity that we can. But at our core, Rainbow Railroad is not a long term settlement organization focused on one domestic location where we have extensive settlement networks. There's amazing organizations across Canada in the United long-term settlement organization focused on one domestic location where we have extensive settlement networks. There's amazing organizations across Canada, in the United States and in Europe that really, their specialty and expertise is in that. And while we dabble in it, connect in it

and understand it, you know, our real focus is on the international arena and ensuring we can identify the right people to move to safety. Very good. All right. We reached out to the Ministry of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada to participate in today's discussion, but they were unable to attend. Instead, they did provide us with a statement that reads in part, IRCC also continues to support 2SLGBTQI plus refugees once they arrive in Canada by providing funding to service provider organizations that offer support specifically for 2SLGBTQI plus refugees. refugees once they arrive in Canada by providing funding to service provider organizations that offer support specifically for 2SLGBTQI plus refugees. It continues to go on and reads,

Canada sets multi-year resettlement commitments to help allocate resettlement spaces under the Government Assisted Refugees Program. Over the next three years, Canada is aiming to welcome 51,615 refugees who are most in need of protection through the government-assisted refugees program. Now, Adrienne, I'm going to come to you. That 51,000 figure also includes, you know, refugees, not just those who are being persecuted because of their sexual orientation or gender identity. Now, you had mentioned, you know, there's a recent report from Statistics Canada that saw a jump in the number of hate crimes motivated by sexual orientation between 2021 and 22. And while there's no death sentence or anything like that here in

Canada, it does beg the question, you know, is Canada really this safe haven for members of the community that we believe that it is? I mean, I think from what my clients tell me as an immigration lawyer, when they're comparing it to the situation they have been in, then it really is a safe haven. Obviously, there's a lot more work to be done around what Bally mentioned with settlement and making sure that people really feel welcome. I have had clients that have come from countries where they have experienced persecution only to come to Canada and experience persecution and hate crimes within the shelter system here. So I think that's a huge, huge gap in when we settle LGBTQ plus refugees in Canada.

That's true. But, you know, from what my clients tell me, when you're comparing to the situation that they came from, you know, it really is a lifeblood and a lifeline for them when they get here. All right, Bali, with that, what more should be done to make the transition of refugees safe and welcome? We were just having that discussion, actually. Yeah, I mean, where resettlement or somebody who's new to Canada is here, there should be a better plan rather than giving them or taking them out for parks or movies.

That is not what a person is looking for. If that same amount of money is used to ask them mandatory to do their volunteer work in the certain non-profit and pay them a certain amount, that will help them better to build themselves. Rather than just telling them we are going for a certain event or we are doing this event or that event, sometimes you're not in the right state of mind and you don't want to do it because you're coming out from one end with a lot of bad memories and then you're here, you're starting your life and you're in a shelter where you're not supposed to be. You know, you're coming back from a better home or something and then you're here you don't feel like doing all these things so i mean better ways like there should be a guide that you step in

this is the government support you're going to get it how to get it when to get it and from there onwards you do some work you get something out of it and these are the housing options you get so point a b c d should be there rather than putting that finances on something which is not required for a person who just stepped in because they're not looking for that. So what happens then? Eventually, they move towards drugs or substance abuse or alcohol, which keep them numb. They're like, OK, this is not what my life is. So they don't have any way to look towards. There's no guiding line.

Alex and Devin, before I ask you your final questions, I do want, there's been a couple of terms that have been thrown up. And Alex, I'm hoping you can clarify these terminologies. We have resettlement, which you have thrown out a few times, versus asylum. Can you tell us a little bit of the difference there? Yeah, absolutely. So resettlement, it works when a person is already a refugee in another country. So in a host country, what we would call, and then they get a pathway to come to a third country. So it's considered a third country solution. So they're being resettled

into this third country. So in the case that i was given before for instance an iranian who have crossed the borders and ends up in turkey and doesn't have a durable solution and cannot live a life free of discrimination and persecution in turkey will have a resettlement pathway hopefully uh to come to canada in this case which is a third country solution. So being a refugee in Turkey, they're coming to Canada, they arrive as permanent residents usually, and they have a settlement support for a year at least, either through the government or through a private sponsorship. Assignment seekers, on the other hand,

are people who are crossing the border to Canada from the U.S. or are coming directly from their countries of origins in an airplane and arriving to Canada at a port of entry and then crossing Canada and either at the port of entry or after crossing Canada they claim asylum or put a refugee claim and so they're completely different in the migration status. So they're just asylum claimants. They don't, they're refugee claimants. They don't have permanent residency.

They have no idea if they're going to be accepted or not into Canada. They have to go through a process of a hearing in Canada. And the supports that they get dependent on the province that they are currently residing, they would get social assistance at the level of the provincial resources that are available. I don't know if that makes it clear. No, that was really thorough. Devin, I'm going to give you the last question here. What do civil societies like Alex's Rainbow Refugee Society and Rainbow Railroad bring to society? That's a good question. I think I could probably write a dissertation on this if I wanted to. But, you know, I think that right now we're in a really interesting political moment in Canada.

a really interesting political moment in Canada. We are facing an upcoming election. We're seeing a lot of really terrifying anti-LGBTQI, in particular anti-trans movement within the school system and within other kind of arenas within Canada. And there's a lot of organizations, both domestically and organizations that are Canadian headquartered, but focused internationally that are working to fight for LGBTQI rights and access for Canadian citizens, for Canadian

permanent residents, for asylees, and also for everybody internationally who is looking to Canada to be a leader in LGBTQI rights and access. And so, you know, Rainbow Railroad really endeavors to be an organization that fights tirelessly for the project of queer liberation. And that's a lofty goal. It means that LGBTQI people internationally are able to be fully them, live full and beautiful lives and be free of oppression and discrimination. And so organizations such as ourselves, Rainbow Refugee and all of our partners in canada and around the world um are a part of this battle and actually in london right now at the commonwealth equality network uh convening with organizations from around the commonwealth countries that are fighting for this type of equality worldwide and it's a it's not pal battle but we're all holding

hands in it devin alex folly adrian thank you so much for your time, but also the work that you guys are all doing. Really, really appreciate it. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you very much for having us. Thank you. The Agenda with Steve Paikin is made possible through generous philanthropic contributions from viewers like you. Thank you for supporting TVO's journalism.