The Agenda with Steve Paikin (Audio) - Francesca La Marca: Italy's Role in a Changing World Order

Episode Date: March 20, 2025

The international order that has been in place since the end of the Second World War has never been on creakier foundations. Relations between the United States and Canada haven't been this bad since the War of 1812. And European leaders, despite numerous trips to the White House to kiss the president's ring, don't seem terribly enamored with this administration either. We do a deeper dive on this with Francesca La Marca, Italian Senator representing Italians in North and Central America.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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ring, don't seem terribly enamored with this administration either. Let's do a deeper dive now on this with Francesca Lamarca. She is an Italian senator representing Italians in North and Central America. And we welcome you back to our studio here. It's good to see you again. Thank you so much. I'm happy to be here. We should just remind everybody, you were born in Toronto,

but the Italian parliament has this interesting feature whereby you represent diaspora Italians in the Italian parliament. Have I got that right? That's correct. Okay, very good. Let's start simple here. How connected to the United States

do you and Italians feel right now? There are many positions in Italy at the moment. You have to understand that multiplicity is the name of the game in Italy. There is never just one position. In fact, even within my party, which is a center-left party, there are various points of view. How connected to the U.S.? It's a very difficult time for Italy and

for all of the EU as we know. As I said there are many opinions just today in the Senate. Our premier, our prime minister, Meloni spoke on the proposed threat of tariffs and how she plans on handling that. And so it's a country that's very divided. I would say that the great majority are against the Trump administration, the policies that the Trump administration is implementing. But there is a segment of the population and there are, there is one party in Italy specifically, the Lega, that is pro, I would say pro Putin and certainly pro Trump. What percentage of the popular vote do they generally get?

It really depends. This is a coalition government and that's another interesting fact about Italy that this coalition is made up of the governing, the ruling group is made up of three right-wing parties and so Meloni's would be in theory the extreme right party. However, we now have Salvini's Lega, which is trying to outdo Meloni's party. We suspect finance by Putin's government, by Russia, in the last election. And so Salvini's government is actually quite pro-Putin and careful not to say anything against the Trump administration and even sent delegates to the US in the last election in November to support Trump. So it's a minority if you will but as I said multiplicity really is the

name of the game in Italy. Does your Prime Minister believe she has a democratic partner to handle world affairs in President Trump? I think that she's playing this game very well, but I think that her time is limited because, as we all know and as the Italian pundits say, she doesn't have much time to decide how to proceed from here. Just today, as I said, she spoke in the Senate in light of the upcoming

European Council, Thursday and Friday of this week, and she was pressed on tariffs on the upcoming tariffs. Now, we know that the EU has imposed counter tariffs on the US in response to Trump's decision, but how is she going to deal with that? I mean, we know that the agro, the food sector, the wine sector especially will be extremely penalized by these tariffs if they go through at the beginning of April. No doubt Italy and France especially will be heavily penalized when it comes to exporting their wines. And so she needs, she's trading very carefully at the moment supporting Ukraine. Once again today she pledged support to Ukraine.

That's another issue we may be able to speak about against the tariffs and actually declared that Italy would not impose counter tariffs. So we're really pressing on her to come to a decision. She can't be both with Ukraine and with Trump at the same time. We will come back to Ukraine in a second. But one of the things we're obviously discovering in Canada is that we do not have the trading partner that we once thought we had. Do you feel the same way in Italy as we seem to be feeling in Canada now, which is

we need to find a different partner for trading, a different partner for organizing world affairs, that we just can't rely on the United States the way we once did. You feel that way? That is the general, that's certainly my personal opinion and that's the sentiment of the great majority of Italian citizens I would say. However, Meloni as we know in Europe has this special rapport with Trump and so she's really playing on this. So on one side she's presenting to Italian Parliament, Chamber and Senate that she has this report and that she can negotiate, somehow negotiate with Trump. And so we are pressing on her to declare how exactly she will respond to these imposed

tariffs, how exactly she will negotiate with Trump. But she sees in Trump a great ally. And so let's see how she can negotiate this deal. Well, I wonder about how tight that friendship is. Because of course she came into power two and a half years ago pledging to be a kind of right-wing, disruptive, populist influence in the same way Trump was. But she's taken this position on Ukraine,

which is exactly the opposite of Trump's position. That's correct. So how is she working all that out? And that's exactly what we're pressing on her to do. There seemed to be a lot of ambiguity in this very thing because she is a staunch supporter of Ukraine. She reaffirmed that today in the Senate and actually said that the resolution that was approved was the resolution of the three in this coalition, three and then there is a smaller party four in this majority pledging

support to Ukraine, continued financial assistance, but wanting to strengthen Europe. So on the one very transatlantic on one side and at the same time a friend to Trump and always defending the policies of Trump saying that we're not going to let's see what happens. I don't believe that it will come to the tariffs, and I will negotiate with President Trump. And in any case, we will not impose counter-tariffs, which would only increase inflation and would only penalize our own citizens. So we will wait to see in the next few days and weeks how she negotiates this. Here, I mean, she's really captured a lot of world attention for some of the very strong, supportive

speeches she's made about Vladimir Zelensky and Ukraine. And we've got a little example of that right here. So let's take a look. So dear Vladimir, we will continue to be by your side for as long as it is necessary. Our objective lies in putting an end to this war and helping Ukraine along its path towards a future A future of peace freedom and prosperity. So as always you can count on us. Thank you Do you think the majority of Italians are with her in support of Ukraine? I Believe that most Italians are in support of Ukraine. Yes. Are you surprised that she is as supportive of Ukraine as I believe that most Italians are in support of Ukraine, yes.

Are you surprised that she is as supportive of Ukraine as she apparently is? No, I'm not surprised that she is. What I'm curious, as so many other Italians are curious to see, how she's going to negotiate this. I mean, there's a lot of ambiguity. I do believe that she is a staunch ally, that she truly believes that we need to continue our support for Ukraine. But I don't see how she is going to get out of this paradox, how you can be an ally to President Trump when President Trump is threatening the vitality of the European Union.

And we know what his positions are on Ukraine. And so how you can be an ally to both has yet to be determined, has yet to be seen. Okay. Senatrice, may I call you? Senatrice. Bravo. Senator, in Italian. Do you think NATO is in trouble?

Certainly it's a concern for EU members. And this is going to be one of the topics, one of the key topics that will be discussed, the European Council in Brussels in the next few days. Certainly that is the major fear and that's why lately there is all of this talk of strengthening EU defense and you know von der Leyen has asked the EU members to raise defense spending to 3% of GDP. Currently in Italy, it's about 1.6, certainly less than 1.7 of GDP. And so the real threat, the real concern of EU members is that the US will pull out of NATO leaving EU countries exposed to a potential Russian threat.

And so that is the very concern. I don't think that it will come to that. And I also believe that this discussion between EU members needed to be had many years ago. This should have happened, in my opinion, at least 11 years ago with the overtaking of Crimea. Not now, but it's good that it's being done now and I think the EU is finally waking up. I'm not sure anybody thinks that Italy is the number one target on Russia's hit list, but it's certainly not beyond comprehension that one of the Baltic countries could be, or even Poland.

Do people in Italy believe, or I should... Okay, let me just ask you. Do you believe it's possible that a Russian military adventure against one of the Baltic countries, for example, do you believe Donald Trump would invoke Article 5 of the NATO Treaty and come to the assistance of that country? It's so difficult to say. It is so difficult to say because we see the news changing. It's difficult to keep up, as you know, being in this line of work. Things change on a daily basis, sometimes on an hourly basis. With such an unpredictable figure and really a loose cannon, in my opinion, it's difficult

to say what won't. I don't know that it will come tonight. I believe you're right, the Baltic countries are clearly exposed. Poland is feeling the fear. Finland, as we know. Italy may not be the number one target, but we know that the EU, and this is one of the topics that will be discussed, the European Council is to strengthen the single market, strengthen defense, and really work as a unified, proceed as a unified group.

You say that Italy is not on the front line, which may be true, but as you may have heard, President Mattarella was criticized not once but twice by this Russian administration for his just recently speaking out calling a spade a spade and saying that Russia is an aggressor and attacked Ukraine and so Italy was on the front line where his name was mentioned Italy was mentioned and saying that Italy doesn't know what it's talking about and should not spew hatred when our president was simply stating the facts. Russia invaded Ukraine. I can play devil's advocate here for a second, which is to say

Donald Trump doesn't think much about how much Italy is spending on defense. He doesn't think much about how much Canada is spending on defense. Has it been a good strategy on his part to name and shame our respective countries in order to get us to spend more on defense? Absolutely not. I don't think there is one single thing that he has done right, in my opinion. I think, sadly, let's call a spade a spade. There are many lies, not just exaggerations, but lies. This is no way to create alliances. I cannot remember, we cannot remember as a nation the last time, as you mentioned earlier, ties between Canada and the US were so low. I have never in my lifetime seen such patriotism here in Canada. I see Europeans coming to

the aid, not only Italians, but I see how popular, if you will, Canada has become in the last months. There is so much support. I get messages all the time, not just from Italians, but from French and other EU nationals, stating that they are, they side with Canada. And so really I would say that the bulk of EU citizens are with us. And we have, on the scale of popularity, respect, we have gained so much and I think that it was a completely mistaken strategy on President Trump's part.

That just raises an interesting question for me for a second. Do you consider yourself Italian or Canadian or what? I'm both. I'm Italian because I've held, well, I was born in this country so I am Canadian citizen first but I've held dual citizenship, I was born in this country, so I am Canadian citizen first, but I've held dual citizenship since I was a teenager. That's when I obtained Italian citizenship. And so I'm also an Italian citizen, clearly, because I represent Italian nationals, the

diaspora in Italian parliament. And I also feel I am a EU citizen. I absolutely do, so I am one of the citizens of the member states. So this is again a bit of an unusual question because you know as much as Canadians obviously have an historic tie to Europe, English Canada to the United Kingdom, Quebec to France, I don't know that we've ever until now thought of ourselves as potentially being members of the European Union. Can you see that in light of what's going on these days? I think it's a little premature to talk about it. I've thought about it clearly. A referendum would need to be held.

I mean, we need the will of the people. Certainly there is an awareness in Europe that Canada is a lot more European, if you will, than the US, now more than ever, obviously. But there is awareness of this. So it's not just us as Canadians who are talking about this, but it's also the French, Spaniards, Italians who are talking about this who recognize that Canada is very, we have similar values. We have similar values. We have similar, and so we do have a lot in common with the European Union. It's something that we can explore down the line, I would say.

I think it's fair to say that Canadians prefer not to be in the international spotlight, because when you're in the international spotlight, it's usually not a good thing. Is it also fair to say that Italians have noticed what's going on between Canada and the United States right now and are they taking our side? Absolutely, 100%. I was impressed, I was happy, satisfied seeing on Italian media in the papers and on TV talk of Canada. Absolutely they're following this trade war as they are. Of course they're concerned for their own citizens as we said, for EU citizens. They're very much aware of what's happening between Canada and the US and they are, the

great majority are on our side and so I'm seeing a lot of go Canada, I'm with you Canada and it's so wonderful to hear and read. We're having a big debate in this country right now obviously on how to respond to the American tariffs. The Premier of Ontario, Doug Ford, initially said he was going to start putting a surtax on electricity exports to the United States. Then he pulled it back. Which way is the way to go? I hear you saying as well that Italy is trying not to put its own tariffs on the United States as well, thinking the whole thing is inflationary.

But then that just means we take it and do nothing? Or what? How do we handle this? you know, put its own tariffs on the United States as well, thinking the whole thing is inflationary. But then that just means we take it and do nothing? Or what? How do we handle this? I disagree with Prime Minister Meloni's stance. As I said, she's doing it to maintain ties. Now, we'll see what happens at the end of April, but obviously she's doing it not to ruin her rapport with President Trump. I think countermeasures, just as the EU has decided,

as countermeasures are sadly the way to go. It leaves us no option. As Von der Leyen's statement says very clearly, this is not what we wanted as the EU. This penalizes us, this penalizes the average citizen US as well as European. But we have no choice but to, in light of the decisions that were taken by this US administration, impose similar counter tariffs. Do you think Italians have the stomach to try to reorient their economy so that they do not need to be as dependent on the United States for their future economic growth as they are today? There's already talk of that. Yes, they've already... Italy is exploring ways to diversify.

Actually, what's interesting in this, I read an article just yesterday about how Canada is poised to become now a huge, the next huge market for Italian wine given the situation with the US. If you think that currently the US alone imports almost 2 billion euros, that's euros worth of Italian wine, and that Canada could become the next major importer of Italian wine. Certainly there is talk of this at the moment, yes. I mean the problem is there's 330 million people, that's a big market, hard to ignore. It's a huge market, sadly.

It's a huge market, sadly. It's a huge, huge market. Okay. Polls here say probably 90% of Canadians are vehemently opposed to the idea of the United States annexing us as their 51st state. Any idea what Italians think about Trump annexing Canada or Greenland or Panama or the Gaza Strip, all of these ideas of which have been floated by President Trump in the last few months? I most certainly do. They're horrified by these statements. The average Italian citizen is absolutely horrified. President Trump is mocked in the media

every single day. I mean, I try to diversify, you know, read right-leaning and left-leaning and centering. But the general sense is that these statements are preposterous, are offensive. And most Italians, as I said, with the exception of a minority, which tends to be, perhaps we can explore that some other time, which tends to be predominantly Lega supporters, perhaps a few in the five-star movement in support of Trump and of these ridiculous statements, but most Italians completely discum. And we recognize what a threat he has become to the world, to global stability. Lega, this is the former League? Correct.

The Northern League as they used to be called? That's correct. So is Lega the same as MAGA? There is talk of that. There is talk of certainly when key politicians from the Lega went around Italian Parliament with their MAGA caps. Quite similar. Yes. Did they do that? Yes they wore the Make America Great Again hats in the Italian parliament? A few of them did and prior to the November election, the Lega actually sent some delegates over to the convention in the US

just to participate and to show Lega's support for Trump. What do you think needs to happen for the... I mean, we're going through a real hinge point in world history right now, right? The international order that has, I won't say maintained the peace because there's certainly been plenty of war, but let's say... Let's say prevented the world from blowing itself up over the last 80 years since the end of World War II. That is being turned on its head as we speak. How worried are Italians about the future of their form of government, their form of life at the moment?

Extremely concerned, extremely concerned. And this is the main topic, one of the topics, key topics that will be discussed at the European Council, as I said, over the next few days is not only a single market strengthening the market of the global of the group but certainly defense defense is key. Obviously there are other issues such as migration controlling migration as we know Italy is a huge we know from North Africa but certainly defense is key and so there are many within Italy, there are many who are in favour of raising the defence spending to the 3% that Funderline has proposed. I personally think that it is necessary and once again in this my Prime Minister is ambiguous

because on the one hand she says to strengthen but it cannot only be defence, it must also be focusing on economics. So using defense as a way to build the economy. Well there's ambiguity there. Is that possible? It remains to be seen. But she says yes in favor to increase spending for defense, a greater portion of the GDP, but also using it to foster economic growth.

It remains to be seen. It's funny. I mean you represent the Democratic Party in Italy, which is a center-left party. And yet you're in favor of more robust defense spending. It's interesting and we see that with the Liberal Party in Canada now as well. Do you find it interesting how many, you know, parties that were not very militaristic in their approaches in the past are suddenly getting religion on this. I don't find it surprising because as I said, we have to remember, multiplicity is the name of the game in Italy, within my party, and this happened in European Parliament just last week. Just last week there was a vote and my party was split in how they vote. There were representatives of the PD party in European Parliament who voted in favor,

those who abstained, those who voted against. So it is a party made up of different opinions. There are those who are absolutely not in favor, such as the leader of my party, whom I wholeheartedly support. But in this, I believe that she is wrong. And so there is a significant component of my part that is in favor of more robust spending. And I personally am one of those. Are you going to get in trouble for dissing your leader on Canadian television?

Absolutely not. I am fully supportive of my leader. But you have to remember that one of the beautiful things about Italy is that all opinions are respected, that discussion, you know, unlike Russia, unlike Russia unlike Russia we have countless talk shows you can express any opinion it is debated may not necessarily be respected but it is debated everyone has a voice and so that's the beauty of Italy and the Italian democracy that dialogue is encouraged dialogue is alive and well and so I certainly will not get in trouble for that.

I wholeheartedly support my leader, but I do believe that this is a necessary evil. Again, this should have been done many years ago, but I think we're still in time. Capisco. Senatrice Francesca Lamarca, the Senator for North and Central America in the Italian Parliament.

It's so good to see you again. Grazie mille. Great to see you. Grazie infinita.