The Agenda with Steve Paikin (Audio) - From Frenemies to Friendly Foes

Episode Date: May 3, 2025

Michael Coren and Irshad Manji are back in studio to rehash the old days, as they once did on a segment called "Friendly Fire." The two went head-to-head weekly, debating hot topics on 'Studio 2,' The Agenda's predecessor. With career changes and political lines crossed, what has this dynamic duo learned over the last 30 years?See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

He was like a father figure to me. Unfortunately, found myself in a very vulnerable position. This is a story about a psychiatrist in Toronto accused of abusing two of his patients, which he denies. It's also a story about a system that is supposed to protect patients. From TVO Podcasts, I'm Krisha Collier, and this is The Oath. Subscribe today wherever you listen. Well, pretty much everything.

Their segment was called Friendly Fire, and it featured Irshad Mangi, LGBTQ Muslim Refusenik, and Michael Corrin, staunch Catholic conservative. And we thought it might be fun to get the band back together. So here they are again three decades later, Irshad and Michael. Welcome back. It's kind of a trip to see.

30 years. Yeah, 30 years. Happy to be alive. Yeah, kind of trippy seeing you two together again, you know? We got together about four years ago. You had a book out and I introduced you. When you interviewed me, we had a lovely conversation. But long before that, even before I'd had a sort of change in life, I was driving along and you were walking along and I stopped the car and you said something to me that I thought was wonderful. You said, I think we've both done a lot of growing up.

And it was lovely. And that was even before I'd become a terrible lefty that I am now. But I'm so glad because we didn't get along back then. No, we didn't. We didn't trust each other. No. And now we're very much in love. I think so. As platonic as it is.

Yes, exactly. Do you know how you two got paired up in the first place? Do you remember how that happened? It was Vodick, wasn't it? So Vodick Schemberg was an ace producer with Studio 2. I honestly can't remember how he tracked me down, but I do remember thinking when you know, he paired us up I remember thinking that this will be the death of me. Really. Because at the time, being very left wing, myself, and really feeling the peer pressure to slam dunk those conservatives, I honestly, Steve, I will tell you with no word of exaggeration,

I would feel nauseous the night before every taping. Because? Because I felt like, and my peers made me feel this way, the weight of the left in Canada was on my shoulders. And one wrong word, one wrong move, and, you know, I gave in to that Boston. Did you know each other before meeting up with the students? No, Vodak, who's a mutual friend of all of us.

He said, this wonderful young woman. And I said, yeah, sure, whatever. And then we met. And it wasn't a cut. I remember we had a lunch or something. It wasn't that comfortable, but I agreed. And it was, I mean, looking back, I can't speak for you, but I'm such a different person.

But even putting politics aside, I think there was an anger in me and a need to try to win, which I'd rather despise now. But then I can't expunge that. That was part of me back then. And not only that, Michael, but we were going head to head. This was a debate format. So of course, it was framed as win-lose.

And that is what made me want to vomit every night. We had you situated in the studio with a rather small desk in front of each other. You were standing and facing each other. And it got intense from time to time. It sure did. I remember one, I think the show, one of our shows before Christmas telling you to have a silent night.

So, yeah. There is an outtake. You're not going to show the outtake. We're not going to show the outtake, but I think I know the one you mean. Where I tell her to go forth and multiply. And, yeah. Or was it go procreate copiously?

Something like that. Yeah, something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You'll be happy to know I did not take your advice. Did you actively dislike each other as you were doing this segment? We didn't know each other socially, really. But for me, yes, I would say that I probably disliked you at the time we were together. But outside of that, you did a profile of me from a magazine, I think, years ago,

and spoke to my wife and family. And you were very nice about my wife and family. You were horrible about me. But that's okay. Well, they didn't sign up to, like, you know, debate with me, right, every week. But yeah, I think we probably did, didn't we? Yeah, we hated each other. Really hate? No, really. I think that would be fair to say.

And for starters, we did not trust one another to play gotcha. That's what we expected one another to do. And might I just add that the way the show was produced deepened that distrust. Yeah. Because Vodak, god bless him. He was a fabulous producer.

And one of our, certainly my, intellectual mentors, that said, he would not let us speak to one another at any point before we came up on set. So the fact of the matter is we didn't know one another as human beings and as individuals. That's right. We only knew of one another and as avatars, as caricatures. That's very well put.

I mean, at no point, if I would have said, or you would have said, that's an interesting point. That's very well put. I mean, at no point, if I would have said, or you would have said, that's an interesting point, let me think about that. Right. They probably would have said, cut. I mean, that wasn't, I'm not blaming anybody, but that wasn't what they wanted.

They wanted the food fight? Yeah. Sure. They wanted the food fight. Absolutely. I think so, yeah. See, I never, I have to tell you, I never inferred that. I inferred that we wanted good, energetic,

definitely head-to-head discussion on big issues of the day. Yeah, that's because you're a nice Canadian. And Michael and I are, you know, feisty immigrants. Yeah, we're terrible foreigners. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, look, there could have been, I'm not criticizing those intentions, if they were.

I certainly got that impression, though, and our characters, and I mean, I always admired your intelligence. I mean I never thought I'm going to debate with someone today who is going to be a walkover. You're sharp as anything. And there was something about you I certainly respected. But yeah, the like wasn't there. And I don't really know how that changed almost in an organic way.

Yes, very. But it really, really did. While you were doing the segment? No, afterwards. Many years afterwards. Many years. And it wasn't about political change, that came later. It was just, I think, about characters changing and life experience, something like that. And life giving each of us several kicks in the butt so that, you know, we were humbled just by more lived experience. Certainly, I can say that for myself. And you're absolutely right, Michael,

that it would have been wonderful if every once in a while one of us had said, you know, that's a great point. I've got to think about that. But since I'm not prepared to debate that one, let me get back to my scripted message, right? And that's, of course, what Us Versus Them does. It puts people in boxes.

Your various nuances are papered over. And then you become cartoon characters of yourself. And that's when it's easy to actively dislike the other. Did it ever get to the point where either one of you marched off the set and said, I can't work with this person anymore? I think it did, didn't it? I think it did.

I can't remember the specifics, but I got a feeling it did. Yeah. Was it you who marched off? I think it might have been you. No, I think it might have been you. No, I wasn't like that. Maybe it was me. But you know what is interesting?

Because the world has become more like we were. The polarization, the absurd caricature of you're right, you're left. You have to be right, you have to be wrong. I'm not saying that we're an example in any way, but, my golly, if we could be a bit more like that and just see the humanity and the nuance in what people are saying and thinking. And ask why. Ask more questions. Sincerely. Not ask accusations, but ask actual questions.

You know, what might I be missing about where you're coming from? Ask more questions, sincerely, not ask accusations, but ask actual questions. What might I be missing about where you're coming from? Help me understand that, right? All of that just coming from a place of curiosity rather than judgment changes everything. Well, would you like to see a bit of you too coming from a place of judgment and not curiosity? That's not a sincere question. That's not a sincere question.

That is not a sincere question because you don't have a choice here. Exactly. Michael said, are you going to show some video of us that's going to embarrass me? And I said, I certainly hope so. Anyway, Sheldon, if you would, friendly fire from 30 years ago. Roll it, please. What should be changed by education, by the evolution of society that accepts minorities. Evolution? You want to tell people like me to be patient?

Yes, we have been patient enough. Yes, I do every single survey. Every survey has shown, I say it again, that minorities are increasing their position in the workplace their positions of authority in the workplace Every time this sort of equity legislation has been brought in, it has failed appallingly. Let me ask you another question. What will happen saying, you see the phrase you use here is it has to reflect the community. I can understand. A workplace has to reflect the community. What about in rural Ontario where there aren't any

minorities? Will they not be allowed to employ black people there? Actually you know I'm glad you brought that up because what you're assuming and clearly you haven't read the law in this case and you have not. Just for the show. Exactly and why would you bother to, right? Exactly because it doesn't affect you doesn't it? Oh no because employment doesn't affect you but let me let me I'm a minority. Let me deal with the issue of rural Ontario or rural anything. This law does not force anybody to hire anybody. Wow. I've got a bloody bow tie on I'm about 20 pounds heavier and like why was I trying my hair?

That was ridiculous thing to do. Oh No, the finger wagging the finger wagging. I'm not isn't it interesting I'm not proud of that in any way and I cringe at it and I've I gotta tell you was good TV guys Yeah, that's the thing. They ended it after two years after After two years, it was. I thought it was after three. I thought it was two. Maybe it was just you after that. I was so confused by Michael. I took his arguments to heart, and then I

began debating with myself. Yeah. But I think that whenever it ended, it largely ended, Michael. And let's be real about this, because we couldn't stand each other. Yeah, I think that's probably true. Was it good TV? Maybe it was. I mean, I know people watched it.

I didn't come away feeling happy about life or about what I'd said and what I'd done. Look, I'm not going to be falsely modest. We're both intelligent people. We have a lot to say about a lot of things. We couldn't really say them there. We shouted a lot of slogans and we tried to get little bits of information in. But we've been very hard on the people who put this together. Because we weren't, it wasn't vain inside us. We did it voluntarily. We were paid to do it.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I mean, I've thought about this a lot in various parts of my life. Do I regret? There's no point in regretting. I did what I did. And you move on and you learn. And what a journey. Really what a journey from a place of, you know, doubling down

because of our dislike for one another not because the arguments were great but because one of us needed to win and more importantly the other needed to lose, right? What a journey from that state to a state in which, you know which you and I can have the kinds of conversations that really allow us to be fully human. And because ultimately that is what we are. Everybody, I've learned the hard way, Steve. Everybody is what I would call a plural. So much more than meets the eye.

And you can't know that if we're just sticking labels on one another. And of course, labels come with baggage, so conservative, progressive, queer, straight, woman, man, et cetera, black, white, or brown, white. Muslim, half Jewish. Yes, exactly. They come with baggage, which manipulates us

into believing, based on that label, I already know everything I know about you. And it leaves no room for humanity. No, and leaves no room for complexity and for surprise. And what defines us, and more and more I try to emphasize this to people, if I speak, if I write, if I preach, humanity is the great defining aspect of all of us.

And the politics are relatively trivial. And we have to cling onto that at this time, probably more than any other in the past 40 or 50 years. You know, Michael, I have to disagree. I really do. Humanity may be the defining commonality of us around this table, but that leaves out so many other living beings.

And I know that sound, that snicker. That snicker. That snicker. I love my dog. Very good, very good. I would say that the fact that all living beings are sentient, they can feel, they can suffer, they can love, is really what ought to be

the defining feature of any sort of organism on this planet. So you're just trying to say beyond humanity. Beyond humanity, absolutely. I don't have arguments, though, with earthworms or with rabbits, generally I don't, anyway. But they may have arguments with you. Well, they may.

And you say, you, I'm innocent. I am a vegetarian. Well, oh, you're one better than me. Damn! Ah! You eat meat? Yes. You eat, you're one better than me. Damn! Ah! You eat meat? Yes. You eat creatures you're equal with?

You know, yeah. Yeah, just like I devoured you on friendly fire, I failed in that regard. But again, back to nuance, I'm trying. And it's only because certain vegan activists have been kind with me. I'm not a vegan activists have been kind with me. I'm not a vegan. Have been gracious with me.

You are trying. That I continue to try. You're very trying. But in terms of political disagreements, political, social, economic, religious disagreements, I mean religion is the area I work in now. When we emphasize the humanity, when I sit down with someone who's Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, atheist, I'm not going to pretend we don't have differences of opinion. Fundamental, profound.

But the humanity of all of us sitting there, only if we emphasize that, can we actually end that meeting in something approaching love and understanding. And it is so very important. And particularly, I don't want to bash on Trump. Everyone's doing that deservedly. But a man who is so removing the humanity of the political discourse and debasing all that we thought. We thought there was a time when Democrat, Republican,

conservative, liberal could actually shake hands and say I respect you and there was a time like that. In the United States I don't think there is anymore and I fear, I do fear, we might move slightly towards that in this country too. Irshad, as Michael has made his epiphany over the years from staunch social conservative to... I don't know what you... What do you want to call yourself now? I mean you're kind of liberation theology... No, I'm not. You know what I think? I'm an anachronism. I'm a sort of 1950s British Labour Party type.

I mean I don't identify with the left as such. Sometimes it appals me. I'm progressive. I'm a Christian. And I think being an authentic Christian demands that you are progressive, and you see humanity in everyone, and you embrace the godly idea of equality.

OK. Which is why, by the way, he gets so much hate from both atheists and fellow Christians. Yeah. Some, yeah. No, I mean, I've seen it. I've seen it. And I really appreciate your moral courage in standing up for what you believe in a way that is nonviolent.

God bless. But given the guy who came out and argued with you in that bow tie, could you kind of believe this transformation that has happened to him? I absolutely can. You could. Because I feel it in my own self. You know, I no longer identify as any one ideological or political label.

They all, you know, sort of reduce us to something less than we actually are. And ultimately, I'm so much more interested in conversation than confrontation for one reason alone, because I learn so much. And learning is a joy. Is that OK to say on the education channel called TVO? I'm pretty sure it is. Okay, yeah.

Learning is a joy. And unfortunately, debate, especially the kinds of showdowns that we would have, which make for great TV, not about learning at all. It's all about winning. As you have watched her transform over the years, from the person you used to wag your finger at 30 years ago, to kind of a superstar in the New York University

and all of the things she's involved in, what have you thought? Many years ago at high school, we had a chaplain. And because he was so kind and nice, we mocked him and made his life absolute hell. We saw weakness. When it wasn't weakness, it was decency. But I in particular, I wasn't nice to him.

And I was at a funeral for an old school friend a couple of years ago in my collar. And he was there, a much older man at this point. And he came up to me and I thought, oh no. And I said, you're probably a bit surprised to see me wearing this. And he said, no, not at all. I always thought you would. People change. Never be surprised. Never ever be upset or shocked because change is so vital. We're all in a constant state of revolution if you like. We're trying, we're becoming something better and greater I hope.

And no, there was always that great intelligence and humanity in you. And I wonder if we'd been friends at the time, would we both have changed each other more effectively, more quickly? I don't think it matters. I don't think it does matter. No. And in any event, you know, it's kind of like pushing people into changing means that that change is tentative and insincere. But when you change yourself yeah it's because you really mean it and I think that's what I see in both of us. So what it means is if we did friendly fire again it would be really tedious. Yeah exactly. Terrible TV. You know you kind of took the words right out of my mouth I was kind of going to put you two to work right now and just sort of apropos of nothing say what do you think the biggest problem in the world is today,

and then get you two to maybe discuss it a little bit right here? Irshad, what's the biggest problem the world faces today? It's the most frightening four-letter F-word in the English language, and that's fear. We are consumed with anxiety, and not necessarily about particular issues but about each other. There is a profound lack of social trust and without trust

there can be no progress. There can only be payback. That's that's my worry about today. Fear. Okay Michael how about you? I'd like to be really clever and give another word but I think that's absolutely brilliant because I think if you look at where things are particularly problematic. Look at the Middle East for example. The fear, the understandable fear that Israelis have of Palestinians and the understandable fear that Palestinians have of Israelis. Look at Russia. A beautiful wonderful country where people have been fed the idea of fear.

That Ukraine is a threat to you. That the Western world is a threat to you. Donald Trump was elected on fear and I'm not forgiving the Democrats on this because they played into it in a way they didn't provide an alternative but telling people be frightened of the foreigner be frightened of the person who lives beyond your border be frightened of all sorts of things within your own country change difference other people are a threat when they're not. And there are valid threats in the world. Of course there are. I'm not being polyanna about this.

But if we could understand, empathize, I mean that word has been very criticized lately. Oh, empathy, that's just being woke. No, it's not. Empathy is feeling what other people feel, understanding what they feel. What are their aspirations? What are their fears? And you see that takes conversation. Anonymous.

Not confrontation. We can't do that today though. We can't have conversations because everybody is in one silo watching Fox TV and then everybody else is in another silo watching MSNBC and CNN and they don't talk to each other, they just live in their echo chambers. So how do we converse?

I will say, Steve, that young people, and I work with a lot of them as students, they're dying for this kind of interaction. They are hungry for it. Civil interaction. Civil interaction, empathetic interaction, compassionate conversation. The problem is not this generation, it's us.

Well, I don't know about that. We're not role modeling it, Steve. Ben Shapiro's role modeling it pretty well. You're being sarcastic. I am indeed. Yes. Those kinds of talking heads. But those talking heads don't have

relationships of the kind that people like us and many, many watching tonight do have with young people. And if we would be intentional about role modeling, decency, and curiosity, and humility, it would rub off and give some hope to a new generation. We have four children. And when I look at them, I'm very proud of them in all sorts of ways.

But they are typical of their peers and their friends. And you do think it's all going to be okay. Having watched them go through school... The kids today, they're incredibly hardworking. They're very respectful. They do understand social issues. You mentioned Ben Shapiro. He's not alone. Young people, Andrew Tate and those who follow him. Young men out of fear thinking they're something that they're not.

There was a wonderful show on British TV, Adolescence, I'm sure it'll come over here as well, about young boys and girls and their attitudes towards each other. But it is male fear. Guys who go to the gym every day and say they're tough and they're rough and women should be treated just as objects. You really think that's coming out of confidence? Of course it's not. They're very opposite. They are frightened.

I don't know if... You really think that's coming out of confidence? Of course it's not. They're very opposite. They are frightened. I don't know if... There are too many examples in history where we've looked at young people and been optimistic to be then terribly disappointed. But I'm too old, I think, to worry about being wrong. I just have to show optimism. And I do think there are enough young people. Even interviews in Russia with Russian young people.

I saw an extended interview. They asked them about homosexuality because Russia is so homophobic. These young people weren't incredibly progressive but they were saying, I don't care. I mean I don't want anything to do with it but I don't care. Very different from their parents. Africa, because part of the issues, things I've dealt with is homophobia in the church. In Africa, Uganda, so ground zero for homophobia in Africa, young people in Uganda have very different views about this. Very different. Because they're watching television from America. They're meeting all sorts of people.

And I mean, when I went to school many, many years ago... There was school back then? There was school back then. There was not one gay kid in the class. No, of course not. That you knew of. Exactly. That's the point. There were been loads of gay kids, but no one came out. Today, young people, they out, gay kids,

they live with, they mix with, they know, they love. In all sorts of areas, when you spend time with people who are different, you understand that difference is something to be afraid of. It's actually something to be embraced. At the same time, young progressive kids also have to realize that when they're asked questions, it is not necessarily out of fear of them. So for example, I have a 16-year-old niece, now 18 years old actually,

but back when this conversation I had with her, she's cisgender. She is female. She was born female. She isn't planning to transition. But out of solidarity with many of her friends, she's non-binary. And when I asked her a couple questions about that, she instantly accused me of being transphobic. And that is the kind of fear that shuts down understanding.

Is that a criticism of your niece, as in she's got to get over that? She did get over that. Yes, and I'm happy to say it took her far less time than it took me to get over referring to people as folks. 16 to 18, a lot of things happen in those two years. Exactly. You are quite right, though.

I mean, the left, I mean, I thought 10, 11 years ago, 12 years ago, I thought I'd be a natural part of the left. In some ways I am, but some of the attitudes of the hard left in particular are appalling, are appallingly intolerant. Anyone who is not like us is wrong. I mean, the conservatives are all bad. Israel, Palestine, absolute lack of understanding

of the history of the region and why things are the way they are. And it's part of the reason we have Trump today. Yes, it is. It helps till the soil for a demagogue. I hate to say this, in our last minute here, because this is so much fun, which one of the two of you do you think has changed more from the two much younger people we saw in that video clip? Who's changed more? I think outwardly, this guy has, I would say that my own frame of mind now is very rarely us against them, me against you.

That's very different for you. Right, very, very. And as a result, my own relationships with my family are so much better. Oh, that's great. Because, you know, I'm able to hear them out. My mother and I, I have to bring in my mother because I would do that in our debates all the time. So for good time's sake, we disagree on so much and then we laugh.

And that's wonderful. And that was not possible 30 years ago. I don't know how to answer that question really, but I would say this that change is not... I've changed. It's over. It's not one to ten. You then keep going. Because change is nothing to be frightened of. It's something that makes you a bigger and brighter and better and happier person I think. But I don't know what I'll be like in a year's time. I listen to a lot of people. I listen to a lot of people in pain who've lost their partners.

And what you learn very quickly as a priest is, shut up. Just listen to people. And when you listen to people, if you don't change, then there's something really wrong with you. Folks, this was a joy. I'm so glad we got you two back together again. And look at that. Look at that.

Thank you. Irshad Manjhi, Michael Coran, Friendly Fire, From Enemies, I won't even say frenemies. No, don't say that. You guys are friends. You guys are friends. Well done. Thank you both.

Thanks. Thank you. Your pleasure.