The Agenda with Steve Paikin (Audio) - Have We Failed French Immersion?

Episode Date: September 27, 2024

A lot of former students claim that they can't speak a minimum of French even after years of French immersion. The Agenda discusses what are the gaps of French Immersion Programs.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

How many students enrolled in a French immersion program remain fluent after graduating? While proficiency in French can have social and professional benefits, to what extent are Canadians getting the most out of French immersion itself? Here to discuss where the gaps are, we welcome in Montreal, Quebec, Eric Andrew G, Quebec correspondent for The Globe and Mail and the author of a forthcoming book called The Undiscovered Country. In the nation's capital, Elena Valenzuela, Director of the Official Languages and Bilingualism Institute at the University of Ottawa. In Guelph, Ontario, Matthew Hayday, Professor in the Department of History at the University of Guelph and author of So They Want Us to Learn French,

Promoting and Opposing Bilingualism in English-speaking Canada. And joining us in studio, Betty Gormley, Executive Director of Canadian Parents for French Ontario. Welcome everyone. Thank you so much for joining us in studio and online. I want to start by setting the scene. According to Statistics Canada, a report looking at data from 2021, more than two thirds of adults and children whose mother tongue is not French and who had been in immersion could have a conversation in French in the urban centre of Summerside in Prince Edward Island, as well in Bathurst,

Campbellton and Edmonston in northern New Brunswick. This compares with less than a quarter of those living in Brooks, Alberta, Norfolk and Tilsonburg, Ontario and Weyburn, Saskatchewan. I think it's important to note that New Brunswick is the only province in Canada that is officially a bilingual province. But Eric, I'm going to come to you. As you know, we've known each other for a couple of years. I didn't know that you spoke French, but you went through French immersion in Toronto. You now live in Montreal. How would you grade your French? I had a live on air radio test of my French the other day.

I was on Radio Canada, the French radio network and live with my grade eight French immersion teacher. We were talking about a piece I just wrote. It was kind of owed to this excellent teacher, Monsieur Ferrand that I had in grade eight. And I'd say, I think he'd probably give me a B plus. B plus. No, I mean, I have pretty good French.

I do most of my interviews for my job good French. I do most of my interviews for my job in French. My kids are in a French daycare and we obviously speak with the staff in French. It has allowed me to live in Montreal and have this job and it really is thanks to French immersion. I mean, I had, I think, a very lucky experience in the program. Well, I want to pick up on that.

You said, a lucky experience. You say it's easy to go all the way to grade 12 and not master the language. Tell me about that. How does that happen, Eric? Well, you know, Immersion's a bit of a misnomer, right? I mean, I sort of learned this in grade 10. Because I was in French immersion, I had the opportunity to do a academic exchange in France for three months. And I lived with a French family in this small town called the Elzon,

kind of in the middle of nowhere. And that was real immersion, right? No one in town spoke English. I spoke to my parents on the phone once a week, but otherwise, you know, by the end of my time there, I was dreaming in French. And, you know, it threw into contrast how unimmersive my schooling had really been. I mean, when you're talking to your friends, which you are too often in class, it's in English, in the hallways, obviously, you revert to English. So, I can very easily imagine you develop a certain level of proficiency if you're going to graduate from grade 12 in French immersion, but are you really fluent in conversation?

Could you really, let's say, have a friend with whom you spoke French? Could you work in French? It's pretty easy to imagine that not happening just because it simply isn't immersive and the deep end, as I learned in that academic exchange, is really the best way. Those three months in France, I think accelerated my French education as much as the other 12 years of my schooling, which is, then again, that was only thanks to the fact that I was in immersion, right? So it was all part and parcel of the immersion program. And you know, I think it's something that, you know, for immersion to be really successful,

it needs to be immersion plus, taking advantage of extracurricular opportunities like that and throwing yourself into French speaking society is, is the only way you're going to emerge with. Let me pick up on that. Working French. Well, let me pick up on that with Betty. We're obviously talking about French immersion, but I think it's very important to maybe get a lay of the land for people who are tuning in and being like, I don't understand. Is it French immersion?

Because we have different streams here. There's obviously, when we talk, there's core French. There's extended. There's even complete school boards. How is a French immersion different? So French immersion is different if you compare it to core French, where core French is a mandatory program from grade four to grade nine.

One French course, that's it. Good if you plan on staying the course right through to grade 12, and if you accentuate it, as Eric said, with opportunities outside of the school and immersive programs and cultural activities above and beyond. Can be a great program. The comparison with French Immersion is the immersive

part is if you really go to the optimal program where you've got an early entry point, JK, senior kindergarten, and you have full French Immersion, a hundred percent French right through to grade three, which is really optimal, then the language acquisition is quite strong and by the time they hit grade four where the curriculum is being taught in French during that time, by the time you hit grade four then the curriculum becomes a little bit more complicated, they have a real grasp of the language. But like Eric said, any French program is going to be improved upon and proficiency through out of school experiences,

opportunities to speak with real francophones on the ground, practice your authentic oral production, all of those things are what really builds confidence. So I would say it's not so much proficiency as confidence that Eric is speaking of. Elena, I want to get you in on this. You have said students are responsible for their journey. What do you mean by that? Yeah, it is the idea that yes, you have to seek out other opportunities to, I guess, speak French outside of the classroom.

You are responsible to a certain extent. Teachers do as much as they can, but you need to really put in that extra work. I mean, learning another language is hard and you have to put in the work, yes. And you have to be committed to it and kind of do those little things, like try and get engaged in the culture. Yeah, so cultural things, try and read, make that effort to speak with someone who is Francophone. We have almost, what is it, over seven million,

or no, around 10 million Francophones, first language speakers of French here in this country. I mean, you have opportunities to do it. You don't have to go all the way to France. You have it right here in Canada. So you can immerse yourself here and find those opportunities to speak French. I mean, here at the University of Ottawa, we have a French immersion program actually at the undergraduate level where we have this sort of integrated language support for people

who want to do that exactly. They went through French immersion in school and they want to take some French classes so they do French class plus this French immersion component that really kind of helps them and helps them in their I hate to say journey but it is a journey you, to become more comfortable and to kind of get over that linguistic insecurity that let's be honest, we all kind of have a little bit, and embrace the diversity of accents and different proficiency levels.

So, yeah. Matthew, I want to bring you in. Looking at the French immersion debate, that's obviously played through the decades What are some of the barriers of producing fully fluent? graduates Well, and I think it's important to recognize that the barriers I'm going to talk about are been I could tell you that these were The same barriers we identified in the 1980s

You know a lack one of the big ones is not having enough French immersion teachers to begin with being a challenge, not having adequate amounts of educational assistants who can provide support to students with special learning needs. And that's a problem not only in the French immersion stream but in any educational stream in the province of Ontario. Issues of socioeconomic access to French immersion classes is a challenge. But also, you know, those opportunities to practice French that people have been talking about so far. And I think that, you know, expectations of French immersion

in terms of how it's promoted to parents have changed over the decades. Societal expectations have not cut up with it. That, you know, the message that is being put out by French immersion experts is that you shouldn't expect your kid to be totally fluent by the end of grade 12, but that they will have a much stronger foundation if they want to pursue that further as they go into university or college or other immersive experiences. That expecting total fluency, given the constraints on French immersion classrooms, isn't realistic, but they're going to be way ahead of the core French students and have that confidence level. And I can say that

you know as a core French student myself that entering a university classroom with French immersion students, their oral French was way beyond mine as was their confidence. Are those barriers being eliminated? You said, you know, that conversation we could have been having, you know, 40 years earlier. What's the problem there? Money. Honestly, you know, this is the problem of trying to run an educational system on the cheap, not being willing to invest the costs that's needed to overcome those barriers. And I think that we're seeing, if anything, in recent decades, the situation is getting worse, that you have more and more cases of special, more and more students with special learning needs in those classrooms that often are being funneled out of French immersion

classes into regular classes who also don't have adequate supports. That's just one of the problems. You do see provinces who have done, taken some strides to try to train more French immersion teachers, to try to address those shortfalls so that you can actually offer enough classes for the hundreds of thousands of parents who want to put their children into those classes. Capacity is a big issue. But a lot of this really just comes down to dollars in resources and an overall under-resourced education system. All right. Betty, I'm going to get you to respond,

because I also know that you wanted to get in there with Matthew's comment. Well, just in terms of barriers, what we're seeing in French Immersion is we've seen 5% annual growth in the program in terms of enrollment over the last 17 years. So the demand is very very strong. It's hard to keep up with the demand clearly but the you know one of the well-spoken well touted barrier is the lack of teachers, so the supply and

demand around teachers. That supply and demand is an issue that has you know kind of played French immersion over time. I mean it's been around for almost 50 years. It's a very cyclical problem. We had a big shortage in the 80s and we brought about, we funneled money into promotional campaigns, creating the awareness and then lo and behold the Ontario College of Teachers showed a surplus for many, many years until about 2015, at which point money was funneled into additional programming, promotional activities to bring awareness to the shortage and draw young people into the profession. I know even just anecdotally

within my my you know sphere of friends I know of about five young people who have consciously made the decision to go into the teaching profession and teach French immersion. So what we say to those young kids is be proactive, do what you need to do so that by the time you get into that classroom, your proficiency is really strong and you're able to support the kids along their journey. All right, Elena, I'll get you in on that as well.

Yeah, I mean, the barriers there, it's a tale as old as time, right? We have been hearing this. I'm a product of the French immersion system, I should say, full disclosure, and proudly so. So I think it's not just about money. I think the teachers need to have that support in the classroom.

They are overworked. They do not have the time to kind of deal with even the slightest learning difference, right? They just don't have it's of course they care and they're you know devoted to their you know to their class but they just don't have the time and and the perhaps in many cases the adequate training. So what we need is more support for our teachers so that they can better support our students like our kids. Yeah, like with some educational assistance and that sort of thing and even access for teachers access for professional development so they can stay on top of every you know on top of the latest research and findings

and things like that and kind of stay on top of the latest sort of things that they can use to help our students. So yeah, barriers, tail as old as time, but it's about, yeah, of course, support, but also, yeah, training for our teachers. We'll come back to the inequities in the classroom, but I want to ask Eric, French Immersion has come to be seen as an elite program. And Eric, you even mentioned that French fluency in Toronto, in a Toronto context, I think that's important.

For example, it tends to be a matter of status. Tell us a little bit about that. Yeah, I mean, I think the numbers bear this out that middle-class, upper-middle-class families are more likely to enroll their kids in French immersion. I think over the course of my time in Toronto schools, my classrooms got less and less diverse as I progressed from level to level. And, you know, that's a real pity.

I mean, not only for the, let's say, less privileged students who are missing out, but it's a civic problem, right? I think often French immersion is these days framed in terms of opportunities for individual students. A lot of the original impetus behind the program, behind the programs across the country, had to do with an idea of Canada, creating a bilingual country. The urgency of that is maybe clear for me here, from my vantage in Quebec, but having cultural exchange between the two solitudes, as they used to be called, as they still sort of are, right, French and English Canada, is pretty difficult without, you know, linguistic proficiency. And I feel so fortunate to be able to live in Quebec,

try to understand Quebec, try to translate Quebec to the rest of the country. And, you know, not that I'm, you know, a poster boy for French immersion, but it's just the stakes of these barriers and the inequities that you see within French immersion are more than individual, right? It's about, we're failing citizens, right? To create bilingual citizens in the bilingual country that was once an important ideal in Canada. With that being said, I actually wanna bring Matthew in. I wanna ask all three of you this question. A lot have come to say that French immersion feels like a free private school within the

public school system. Fair to say? I'll start with Matthew. I mean, not having experienced a private school, I have my question. But again, this is one of the critiques that's been around since the 1980s and and a lot of that comes back to what I was saying earlier about providing educational assistance that the criticism of this being a program for the elite it's it's very it's real but it's often just because of the product of what happens de facto because you don't have enough educational

assistance for students with learning challenges and when they talk about being a class for an elite today, it's more just that the French immersion classes don't have as many students with special learning needs because when faced with those problems, a lot of those students get streamed into the regular English language classrooms which end up being overburdened with even more of those students which downgrades the educational experience in that class, which is less the case in French immersion classes. So as a learning experience for those students, they don't have as many of those problem learners,

certainly as you get to the higher levels. The socioeconomic factors that Eric was just talking about, another criticism. And that comes down to the fact that middle-class parents often have the time and energy to lobby to have French immersion programs created in their schools in their neighborhoods so that there isn't issues of transportation and busing that often are issues with working-class neighborhoods that don't have the same access to French immersion.

A lot of this, as I say, it comes down to how do we resource the programs and not about is French immersion elitist. It's a are we resourcing it in such a way that it will become that way because of how students get streamed out of it or it not being promoted to their parents or parents who just don't have the time and energy to to fight for those aspects of it to have access to those programs to the same degree that a middle or upper class parent would be. I don't know that it's fair to say that the classes are equivalent to a private school, but I think that's where the critique is coming from. Fair enough. Betty, I'll get you to weigh in as well.

I think that most school boards right now are very cognizant of prioritizing where they're opening up French immersion programs. They're making a real concerted effort to open up programs in areas that have traditionally been underserviced. It's going to take a while for the data and the statistics of those new classes to actually be felt in, I mean if you think of there's only 20 students per French immersion you know class you open one French immersion program in an underserved neighborhood in Toronto it's going to take a long time for those numbers to build up to have an impact with a school board the size of the TDSB but they are they are putting an

emphasis on that and I know that there are other school boards that are doing the same. One of the barriers is that once a school is established, it's easy to get the word out. The whole community outside of school knows about the program, but French Immersion is an early entry program. So if you don't, if it's a new school in a new neighborhood, traditionally underserved, it's going to take a while for the community to even know there is a French Immersion program there for the uptake to really generate and you know feel the impact. So I do

think that there is concerted effort to enhance, enrich the French immersion program in terms of cultural content and bringing in francophone artists and workshops and opportunities to have those authentic dialogues with real francophones. So you don't have to necessarily be in Quebec to do that or have that benefit. We have 700,000 or plus Franco-Ontarians here. And we certainly have a rich French culture right here in Ontario that the school system can tap into. Elena, I'll get you to pick up on that.

I saw you nodding your head as well. But is it fair comparison as well when we talk about sort of free, sort of this idea of a free private school? I get the impression that it's not. But yeah, get your thoughts on that. Yeah, I kind of have an issue with that because it's true that, I mean, Matthew said it very well, the fact that kids are streamed out of it as soon as there's like the slightest inkling of a learning difference or learning challenge,

they're streamed into the modeling wall system and it's just sort of just not fair and it creates this kind of dual, sort of two streams of school. So that's not okay because it gives you this sort of unreal expectation for, or not expectation, but it's this sort of lack expectation for, or not expectation, but this sort of lack of learning differences in the French immersion stream.

But I think that in terms of the socioeconomic issues, the data actually support that by and large, new Canadians put their kids in French immersion because they really value language. They do not speak French themselves necessarily, but they put their children in the French Immersion program because they understand the importance of it. They have a positive attitude towards French and knowing languages, and that in turn is very beneficial to children in the French immersion stream.

That kind of support at home and positive attitude and sort of, yeah, that kind of awareness towards the French culture and French language and the importance of that, the importance placed on knowing languages, is very, very beneficial to children and really does help with their success later on academically and in the French Immersion program. Elena, I do want to ask, Betty had mentioned this 5% growth, but how popular, can you give us a sense of how popular French Immersion is in this province?

Because, you know, I think for a lot of parents who might have some, may have a lot of questions, you know, might feel like this is, you know, there's motivation for these programs. We know that. But give us an idea of how actually popular this is. It's so popular that, you know, there are waiting lists in many cases, it's so popular that because people really realize the benefits in terms of employment opportunities. I mean, the healthcare industry is desperate for people who speak French, you know, to serve the francophone

community outside of Quebec. So, you know, things like, you know, getting a job, the cognitive benefits, you know, cultural awareness and inclusion, these are all very, very important things. That's what makes French Immersion so popular. And it's the long, you know, it's been around for what, 50, 60 years. And you know, it's been mostly very, very successful. And so we see the popularity because as soon as it comes into a school,

then all of a sudden all the middle class parents wanna put their kids in that school, of course, because that really shows how popular it is and how important it is to so many people. I wanna pick up on that, what you said, mostly successful. Because I do have some questions. When we talk about French immersion, we also do hear about students dropping out halfway through

when they go further. What's the reasoning behind that? Do we see that? Is that just an anecdote? Are we hearing that, or is that an actual? Well, yeah. I mean, a lot of it is, I mean, okay, so I mean, anecdotal, but also it's true

that the transition from grade school to high school is kind of a place where a lot of students do kind of drop out because there are competing academic challenges in high school, so they may want to, you know, sort of focus on, let's say, maths or things like that, depending on what program they wanna get into, those types of kids, and also, I mean, depending on what program they wanna get into, those types of kids. And also, I mean, depending on what kind of French classes

are offered at that particular school. Also social factors, that's when a lot of, even in the French schools, a lot of the kids start speaking English to one another in the hallway. That's not ideal, but you know, that happens. So, I mean, I say, I don't know why I said mostly successful. It's a very successful program.

It's so successful in fact that people copy it all over the world. I know, I mean, my background is Spanish. My parents are Spanish from Spain, and Spain has the same kind of system of French immersion. They copied the Canadian French immersion model for their bilingual education. And we see that in other countries as well.

But, yeah, people drop out of it, again, like we were saying before, like Matthew mentioned, the idea that the learning differences, they're stringent to another thing. But then it's the it's the grade school to high school transition is tricky. All right. We only have a few minutes and a couple of questions. Yeah, go ahead, Eric. I would just say, like only have a few minutes and a couple of questions. Yeah, go ahead, Eric. I would just say like even a few years of French immersion seems to have real benefits. My wife was in French immersion until fourth grade, I think, and her French was pretty rusty when we moved to Montreal three years ago, but she enrolled in these Franciscation classes in Quebec, these free French language classes they offer here.

And a combination of that and just day-to-day interactions have gotten her French to a really solid level now. It came from that base she had ended more than 20 years ago. more than 20 years ago. So, you know, just to say it's, you know, I think K to 12 is where you're going to get the most benefits, but it's not worthless if for whatever reason students end up dropping out before that. All right, Eric, I do want to ask you, and then Betty, you'll get the last word on this. You believe the bilingualism dream we have as a country shouldn't be written off Just because the lack of funding. What do you think should be done? I Guess I'll get Matthew in there as well You're in there so I'll go Eric Matthew and then

Yeah, I expect Matthew has More concrete, you know policy proposals. I just think more money, more of an emphasis, more of an emphasis on French immersion, again, not just as a kind of fast track for individual students that's going to give them career opportunities, but framing it in terms of a kind of national project. It's as I think Betty said, a quarter of the country is Francophone. It's natural that we should be trying to create a bilingual country. It so happens that the large majority of Francophones are concentrated in Quebec. But it's important, frankly, on the level of national unity. People are always surprised when they encounter me in Montreal and hear my French and find out I'm from Toronto.

The assumption is that no one bothers. No? No one bothers to learn French. I mean, you know, this is a can of worms, but the Governor-General doesn't speak French. It's in the news again because she was in Quebec City and interacting with folks in three years in, or maybe it's two years into her mandate, during which time she's promised to intensively learn French. She evidently hasn't. I don't think it's really made the headlines in English Canada, but this is seen as a big deal in Quebec, right? It's seen as offensive and increases the alienation that really palpably exists between Quebec and English Canada when you're here. It's not only to frame it in terms of a scare scenario

of Quebec separating, Quebec is a wonderful place. It's, you know, I'm reading this incredible novel by a Quebec-born novelist right now, Kevin Lambeau. It's just translated into English actually, one of the equivalent of the Booker in France. My wife and I go to plays and go to concerts in French. Incredibly rich culture that's there to experience that's Canadian. And I don't think most English Canadians know who Kevin Lambert is. He's a household name here and famous in France. But there's this 10 million strong population that's producing this incredible culture right

underneath our noses and most English Canadians have no access to it. And it's a pity. I would argue what are the most culturally vibrant parts of the country. So on all kinds of fronts, it just should be seen as a national project, as a civic issue, as much as a matter of helping individual students get a job. And I'm going to be weaker on what to do about it. I'm not an expert on some of our other panelists are, but I just think those are the stakes, right? And that's maybe how it should be framed by policymakers. All right, Matthew, I'm going to give you the last word.

Unfortunately, we're running out of time, but you get the last word on that. And this is critical. These French immersion really was spread across Canada in the 1970s and 80s because of the Official Languages Act, because of a commitment touages Act, because of a commitment to a bilingual country. And if English-speaking Canadians are going to go along with that, they have to have opportunities

to educate their children to the level of French that will allow them to become a governor general, a Supreme Court leader, a political party leader, a senior bureaucrat. This is part of the price that we pay for the country is to have a viable and strengthened French immersion program. Because if English Canada turns on the Official Languages Act, we are going to be back in the situation of facing separatism. Like separatism is real. We like to think that it's gone away, but it's latent. It's there. Francophones want their government to speak to them in French as well. That means a bilingual government. And Anglophones need to have the opportunity

to become bilingual as well. French Immersion is the vehicle that we've chosen to provide the best access to that. And perhaps bringing that national conversation back to people's attention, as Eric suggests, is necessary. But this is a program that's born in historical politics that are still very much with us today. That's awesome. Another panel for another day perhaps. Matthew, Elena, Eric, Betty, thank you so much for joining us on the program tonight.

We appreciate it. My pleasure. Thanks for having us.