The Agenda with Steve Paikin (Audio) - How Black People Shaped Canadian History

Episode Date: June 24, 2024

The new revision of Rosemary Sadlier's "The Kids Book of Black History in Canada" includes African acknowledgments that asserts how Black Canadians are an integral part of shaping this country's history and includes a look into the issue of lack of representation this community experiences. Sadlier, the former president of the Ontario Black History Society, talks to Nam Kiwanuka about this important update and her ongoing work highlighting the contributions of Black people to Canada.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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a better world through the power of learning. Visit TVO.org and make a tax-deductible donation today. Black Canadians have always been an integral part of shaping this country's history. In a new revision of the Kids' Book of Black History in Canada, author and advocate Rosemary Sadler provides a look at some of the key periods,

events and people from the last 400 years of Black Canadian history. And it brings Rosemary Sadler to our studio tonight. Hello. Hello, how are you? I'm really great. It's great to have you in studio with me. So this book is an updated version of one published around 20 years ago. Absolutely. You have a new artwork and you've added some additional chapters. One is on representation. Why did you feel that this was a missing part of Black history? Well, I think Black history is all about representation. It's all about making a point of including the reality that Black people have been a part of this country's history

since before it was even this country. They've always been here. And so I think that to make a very targeted and intentional mention of representation is a reminder to everyone that we're not doing this just as an additional subject that maybe you'll get to. It's because representation is something that's part of our day-to-day life and we need to be conscious of all the people that are part of this beautiful country. And when you talk about representation,

it's to say that these people in different genres and different disciplines have been part of Canada's Black history. Or not even just Black history, but Canada's history. I was going to say that, exactly. They have been part of Canada's histories on these lands since before it was, before Confederation. I think there is a perception that people of Black ancestry came to Canada, perhaps in the 1950s and the 1960s, but your mother's family in Canada can be traced back to the 1830s, and your father's ancestors arrived in New Brunswick in 1783. Yes.

How long have people of Black ancestry been a part of this country? Since before it was founded. There were Black people as part of this country in the 1400s and the 1600s, all the way to the 1600s, but we have a name for one of them, and that person is Matthew DaCosta, who by chance did not happen to be enslaved but was a contract negotiator and worked between and among the First Nations and Europeans

on Canada's east coast. I'm very fortunate that I was able to see to the creation of a Canada Post stamp in his honour. But the great majority of black people to arrive in this country came in as property of white loyalists, or came in as people seeking their own freedom following the creation or the actualization of that thing we know of as the Underground Railroad? I think this next question is probably twofold because I imagine if you are a young black person hearing that black people have been on this land before it became Canada, you might think, wow, I didn't know that. And then if you are someone who might think

that Black people haven't been here for very long, you might think, what? Why is it important for us to understand that part of history? I think it's a counter to the usual narrative that would suggest that we are a land of immigrants. And the way that seems to be understood is that immigrants are recent arrivals. And while that may be true, there

are significant numbers of people who have much more recently come to this country, including people like yourself, who have come from the mainland of Africa, have come from places in the Caribbean or South America. But what that does is that they are coming in and adding to and extending a history that had already begun. Again, people of African ancestry have been in North America, I mean, but in Canada in particular, since at least

the 1400s, helping to found cities like Detroit and Chicago. So I think it should make everybody feel really good to know that they're adding to something wonderful that had already begun. In this new edition, you have added an African acknowledgement. What is that? And why did you add it? What is that, and why did you add it? I was at a conference by 2015, and I had been very much in awe and in appreciation of the land acknowledgements

that were being done for First Nations people. But it made me wonder how it was that, as a person who has, like myself, my family has been here since 1783, there needs to be an acknowledgement to help people also appreciate that there is a group, not just my family. There are people who have been helping to contribute to the development of this country since before 1867.

So my land acknowledgement is in the book so that people can consider using it when they are doing an event. Consider using it when they're in an event where it's a particular... has a focus on black history. For more than two decades, you led the Ontario Black History Society. I don't believe you were paid for the work that you did. No, I was not paid.

And at one point, the funding for that organization was cut by 90%, I believe. That's right. But you put your heart and soul to let people know that there is black history that happened and developed in Canada. Why did you do all that work? Why was it important for you to do it? Well you know John Lewis said that he gets into good trouble and I think that in my case I'm just good stubborn. That needs to belong on a t-shirt. Good stubborn right here. But the reality is that I know what I had gone through, I know what my parents had gone through.

And certainly anti-black racism in this country takes somewhat of a different form than it might in some other countries, but it is present nevertheless. And when my own children were in school and were coming back, sharing some of the difficulties and the challenges that they were experiencing, the lack of acknowledgement of anything positive having to do with African Canadians,

the omission, the negative stereotypes that were readily shared that were coming across in some of the reading materials, and never mind the treatment that they were receiving from certain people, I approached a way of addressing this in what was possible for me at the time, and that was in extending and amplifying the work that I was doing as a volunteer with the Ontario Black History Society and later when I ended up heading it. You know, I came to this country as a refugee and I didn't really know the Black Canadian history in this country, but I knew a lot about what happened south of the border in America. Why is it important for

there to be a distinction between the difference of the Black Canadian experience as opposed to the Black American experience? That's a really good question and a really complicated question. I think that people sometimes want to negate that there is a Black experience north of the border, but it's because our experience is different. And it's because Canadians in general are different

in how we treat race and how we handle things like, you know, many, many aspects of violence and aggression and problems that we might have as a society. In the United States, no one would question where the black population has come from or that there is one. In Canada, it's a constant question. We are not there by virtue of just not being recognized. So I think that our experience is different because the nature of resistance is different. Sometimes, you know, people think there has to be a major riot, and certainly Canada has had that.

One of the largest race riots that ever took place in North America, one of the first ones, took place in Birchtown, Nova Scotia, in the 1700s. So, you know, we have had all of those markers of issues and challenges with race relations. We have had segregation, which is evidenced by the story of Viola Desmond. So I think that it's just to understand the nuances that separate us from the Americans, but at the same time acknowledging the commonality, because it stems from the same phenomenon.

And that phenomenon is the transatlantic slave trade and how that experience marked both of us, both populations, all populations, and helped to create particular stereotypes about black people that helped to keep other systems in place. When you talk about stereotypes, within the book, you have pioneers from the Black community in medicine, in different disciplines.

And I think for a young person reading that, it probably instills a sense of pride. But even when we were talking about the black experience versus the American experience, living in Toronto, people from the Caribbean and people from Africa are very different. It's not a monolithic experience, right? So when you talked about how,

when your kids were in school and they weren't learning this, and I know we place so much on teachers. Why do you think, I know we place so much on teachers but why do you think I know some teach it's up to the teachers until the new curriculum comes in in 2025 right but why do you think maybe that some teachers may shy away from teaching that history in classrooms they shy away from it because they don't know it they shy away from it because they were not taught it. Unlike the American situation where they do have required black history, there is no required black history from kindergarten to

grade 12 yet in any place in this country. And when I was able to have February proclaimed as Black History Month following a significant amount of advocacy on my part and building up a community of interest, and when it ultimately did end up being passed with the federal government in December 1995, I had hoped that even though education is not a federal responsibility, that it would add weight to the importance of having a required Black history curricula.

It is 2024 right now. This was done in 1995. 30 years. And it still has not happened. And you're absolutely right. It is very much up to particular teachers to do what they can. And when I myself was in the Faculty of Education, I brought Black History to the graduating class

that I was graduating with. And the time that I had became reduced to, the last week of school, and I had 10 minutes to do it. Well, you know, next year, students in grades 7, 8 and 10 will be able to learn about Black history in this province as mandatory, it's a mandatory course. But you've said that this is more of a stepping stone than a milestone.

Why do you say that? I think that it's a late start. I think one of the things that I truly feel is important is to introduce young people, very young people. What grade would you say? Kindergarten, even before. Kids see difference. Kids have questions.

Kids need to have the right vocabulary to address certain issues that they're facing. And by the time a black kid is in grade seven, they've already internalized some of the negativity that exists in the grand narrative. And if they have also learned that and internalized it, so have the other students who do not look like them. So it's kind of, in terms of the development,

the individual development of that child, black, white, or purple, it's kind of late in the start. We don't introduce other important ideas that we value, like safety, like sex ed, like religion, sex ed, like religion, in our family situation. We don't wait until somebody is 14 or 12. We do it very early so that we open up the dialogue and have the opportunity to have those challenging discussions in a safe place. And now it also will depend on what the level of awareness is for parents of all backgrounds, and in addition to the level of awareness of those teachers who may also have been deprived of that learning opportunity. Yeah, because I think the first conversation I had with my son was, he was 3.5. son was he was three point three point five he was three and a half years old in junior kindergarten when he first experienced something that was anti-black and i had to speak to him at a very

young age uh but uh stephen lecce who was the former minister of education um when they made this change he said that black history is canadian history and i just want to read a part of the statement from the ontario ministry of education it said, for the first time starting in September 2025, grade 7, 8 and 10 history classes will include mandatory learning with an emphasis on elevating Black history as Canadian history by highlighting the various Black communities that emerged, developed and contributed to the development of Canada, including pre and post-Confederation. Students will now learn about the overwhelming contributions of Black individuals to Canada's foundation as a young nation and the obstacles they face in the pursuit of building

a democratic, inclusive, and prosperous country. You know, education is a provincial responsibility. What do you think other provinces can take from Ontario's lead on this? I know that other provinces are also working on curricula, but it's kind of spotty across country. I think that this is going to signal that, you know, it's important to remember that at one point in time, critical mass of Black people in the country resided in the GTA but that's changing and we have large numbers of people across the country so I think that it will signal that this is important and valuable but I would caution anybody who's considering

working on curriculum to start as early as possible the Ontario Ministry of Education said that they will consult with educators and the black community to inform this new learning. If you had the ear of the ministry while they're making this curriculum, what would you say to them? Well, I kind of already am one of those people that's been approached. But I would definitely indicate that it's important from kindergarten to grade 12. I would definitely also indicate that Black history is, yes, we were talking about historical facts, but we're also talking about Black representation. So there's room and a role for information about African Canadians or the

global African community in many other subject areas. I was speaking to a teacher on the weekend who was telling me about a wall of system of numbering that's very comparable to the way French might number. And I thought, I didn't know about that, but how fascinating. So, you know, there's ways of inserting it in our art courses, in talking about in our English language courses, what are the books that we're giving young people to read? They can all be reflective of, or at points include African-Canadian authors and African-Canadian experiences. I think if your book came out in the States right now, in some of the states, this book might actually be banned. We're living at a time where there's a lot of pushback on this conversation around diversity.

I prefer inclusivity. this conversation around diversity. I prefer inclusivity. And how do you, why do you think it's important for all the other students to learn about black history as well, especially in this climate that we're in right now? When a black student learns about black history, they're being affirmed in their own experience and it helps them develop a sense of pride.

But when non-black students learn about black history, what it does is provide a more balanced sense of their own group's historical contribution to this country. And all of the developments, all of the discoveries, all of the positive actions have not been conducted by one gender nor by one race and when you add black history to the mix it and and I again not just facts and figures about You know the battles but the lived experience of people over time

It can add to that and extend that in our last minute I you've include you've included a group of new people in your book, like contemporary black leaders, artists, innovators. What do they all have in common that you're hoping that kids can learn from? I think that all of the people in the book are dynamic, are intelligent, are trailblazers, have contributed something, provide a role model for young kids. And Nam, you're in the book. I know. And so maybe if I had seen a book like this when I was a kid, I would think, I can be on TV too. Thank you for including me. It was a thrill to show my kids. It means a lot.

Thank you. You're welcome. And thank you so much for all the work that you continue to do. It's really appreciated. It's incredible to think that had it not been for all of your work behind the scenes, that we might not even have a Black History Month, let alone the possibility of kids learning about Black history in schools. So thank you. Oh, thank you. I'm really lucky that I've been able to build on some of the work that other people had

done, like Dr. Carter G. Woodson in the United States, Dr. Daniel G. Hill here in Canada, and the wonderful team that I worked with when I was president of the OBHS. And of course, while I did much, most of the legwork to build up a community of interest around Black History Month. It did go to the House through Jean Augustine. But I've worked on other things too. August 1st is Emancipation Day. And I hope that readers will be, watchers, your group here,

will also be mindful that black history is all year. There's something wonderful to consider. Thank you so much for your time time we appreciate you coming into the studio tonight the agenda with Steve Paikin is made possible through generous philanthropic contributions from viewers like you thank you for supporting TVO's journalism