The Agenda with Steve Paikin (Audio) - How Do High-Speed Rail and E-Bikes Fit into Ontario's Future?

Episode Date: June 11, 2026

Politicians have been promising high-speed rail in Canada for decades, and with a new federal plan now on the table, questions remain about whether it will finally move forward and what it means for communities along the route. Jeff Leal, mayor of Peterborough, and Bonnie Clark, warden for Peterborough County, join us. Then, the rapid rise of e-bikes is transforming how people get around, embraced by commuters and delivery drivers but raising new safety concerns as well. With the province now considering updated rules of the road, Michael Longfield, executive director of Cycle Toronto, weighs in on how to balance accessibility, convenience, and public safety.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Find us wherever you get your podcasts, and be sure to check out the video version of the show on the TVO Today YouTube channel. Hope to see you then. Want to get from Toronto to Quebec City in less time than it takes to drive and without having to deal with airport hassles? Well, that's the promise of the federal government's

planned high-speed rail line, alto. Or that's one of the promises. Prime Minister has mentioned a few more. It's more cost-effective, it's more sustainable, it's connecting our communities. But not everyone's on board with Mark Carney's vision of a high-speed future, and not just because of the estimated $60 to $90 billion price tag. Farmers warn that food security begins with protecting valuable farmland, yet the liberals continue to advance the $90 billion ultra-rail project

despite concerns about its impact on more than 5,500 farms. concerned about what could happen to farmland, and yes, costs and transparency too, have formed groups to fight the plan. We look at how all of this is playing out on the ground in one corner of Ontario. Then, the future of urban commuting, or public nuisance. We check in on how the province deals with e-bikes now and how the regulations could and should change. This is the rundown. Politicians have been promising high-speed rail in Canada for decades. Now, the Liberals have a plan, but it's facing plenty of controversy. Jeff Leal is the mayor of the city of Peterborough,

and Bonnie Clark is the warden for Peterborough County, and they join us in studio. How are you both doing? Very good. Great to be with you. Well, thank you so much for coming, making the commute here. Mayor Leal, we'll start with you. 100-kilometer high-speed rail.

One of those stops is Peterborough proposed. What is the Alto's stop in Peterborough look like? What are we building here? Well, first of all, when you look at Eastern Ontario, there's three communities that have a university, a college, regional hospital, regional airport, and connected by a four-lane highway, Ottawa, Kingston, Peterborough. So the choice for Peterborough was pretty easy

in terms of being that hub. And it's certainly our view, as we work with Alto, as we've been doing over the last number of months, to choose an appropriate station location in our community. We're certainly looking at the southeast corner in order to develop that broader transportation hub to serve the broad region of people coming to take advantage of the 1,000-kilometer high-speed rail that Alto is,

proposing. And we see this as a tremendous opportunity for our community. And of course, when a new business comes to the city of Peterborough, benefits our friends in the county and all eight municipalities in the county of Peterborough. And of course, this past week, we made a landmark decision to reduce our development charges by 50%. So we're making Peterborough a real place to invest. All right, Warden Clark, you recently voted along with other wardens of eastern Ontario against moving forward with a railway proposal in its current form. The mayor did a great job of giving us a bit of the geography there. We have the city of Peterborough in the center, and we have the county just around it.

So help me understand, why are you not sold on Alto? I think when we look at large infrastructure projects, with the planning around it, Rural Ontario is not always considered. So these projects, when we aren't considered, certainly can be of little or no benefit to rural. So when we look at Alto, we look at the corridor from Ottawa to the city of Peterborough. It is 250 kilometers with no stop

until we get to the city of Peterborough. So there will be certainly benefits as far as Peterborough County goes. We're in close proximity to the station. But in saying that in its present form is the reason I voted no to the project because it is dividing communities and a nation building project should be good for everyone, including rural Ontario. And when it divides communities and we have roads. that are dead-ended, that certainly is concerned.

Well, help me understand a little bit of what sort of your constituents are saying when it comes to this divide in the communities. What are the unique sort of issues that they have with it? Well, first of all, this is going through agricultural land. We are looking at 15,000 acres in total. Certainly the mayor is a past ag minister, certainly knows agriculture. we are, our duty is to save agricultural land.

And therefore, we have not been consulted in a wholesome manner. So each and every municipality that this affects, we're asking for a transparent and wholesome. In saying that, I do know farms that we're doing business plans, and right now we're looking at a 10-kilometer breadth. It's going to go down to 60. But that is stopping a lot of businesses, farm businesses, doing expansions. Because they are not sure if that farm entity will be severed.

And you talk about transparency as well. There's NDAs, I believe, that Alto is asking leaders to sign. And that you have issue with that as well. Not with that per se. I don't have an issue with the NDAs. I have initiated with the transparency and how that consultation has come through. We do not have solid answers of where the rail is going, addressing our concerns. When you look at planning, it is our duty to look at both our municipal locally and our regional plans, and do they line up?

Okay. Mayor, the warden has pulled out the resume and has said, as she mentioned, as she mentioned, mentioned in 2014. You were the Minister of Rural Affairs, agriculture. So I helped me understand what are the reasons for supporting the World War I proposal? Does it, do you understand the concerns that some of the constituents? Well, first of all, I may have a slightly different view than the warden has on a nation building project. When you look at the population from Toronto to Quebec City, 18 million people representing 44% of Canada's population. So that's a, that's a pretty big swath of population. And within that corridor, we have 30 colleges and universities, the home of 700,000 students in that area. So when I look at Van Cleek Hill, which I visited in

Eastern Ontario, you know, when you look at from a medical educational perspective, this, for me, this urban rural divide doesn't exist. Because if you have a potential medical problem or you want your family members to get access to 30 colleges and universities, you know, there's going to be an opportunity through this high-speed train. And remember, during the construction period, 50,000 jobs are going to be created. And I know in my hometown and Bonnie's hometown, our general region, we have the Corps of Trades and Skills Center, is going to be training a lot of these people to give futures for a lot of citizens,

in our part of Ontario. You're absolutely correct. I had the great privilege of being Ontario's ag minister from 2013 to 2018. I'm very sensitive about protecting farmland. But first of all, we need to select a corridor. And when you elect soil profiles both on the northern corridor and the southern corridor, we have to take that into consideration. As the federal government has committed,

in a recent meeting I had with the federal transport minister, Minister McKinnon in Peterborough to talk about the comprehensive government of Canada environmental assessment that will be done on whatever corridor is chosen and to remember from a climate change perspective electric trains are zero emission so from that broad public policy

this fits rather well I do have to ask for our viewers when we talk about the north and south corridor we're talking to the south one is closer to Belleville in Kingston we're talking about the northern one we're talking about havelock and so forth. Would there be a preference between those two at the moment if you're looking at those two groups?

As far as preference, no, but excuse me, I want to come back when and just justify why we are not in support. So there are two models, I will say. One is the viaduct model, which is the elevated version. Right. And one is the berm. And the one that's being presented

is the berm model. And that's where berms on each side and the terrain in the middle. That goes through environmentally certainly sensitive land. It cuts off certainly wildlife corridors. It severs communities and farms. And that's why

certainly my option, personally, would be the viaduct model that would not sever those communities. when I talk to my urban friends and tell them that, you know, if you are dead-ending roads, it's not only businesses that are impacted. It's the municipal services that certainly cost more.

It is our 911 responses as well. We have volunteer firefighters in the county. In Peterborough County, all of our fire halls are south of the corridor, Dead-ending roads means that we have to do different, certainly, plans as far as responding to different areas in the county. So that is the concern. It's not that we are against the project. Certainly there are advantages, I would say, procurement, local work, you know, access to health care.

But in saying that, that corridor from Ottawa to Peterborough certainly will benefit on the initial and the building. But then they're left with a community that certainly physically is divided and changed forever. So with that being said, north or south, have you had to pick a corridor? Elton are going through that analysis right now. They started doing their field studies on the Ottawa.

to Montreal. My preference looking at it would be in terms of potential impacts to look at the Northern Corridor, but I'd certainly defer to the engineering team to make that final determination. All right, Ward and Clark, I do want to ask, I want to move away from sort of the agriculture, I want to talk about who this benefits in terms of the riders. Do you believe this railway only benefits urban riders passing through to get to cities? Because I know anecdotally, but a lot of people have frustrations with the current rail corridor that's going east. It is a well-known frustration for a lot of people. And we know people

who are visiting families as well. Is this only for urban riders? Do you view this as not necessarily a divide between urban and rural, but is this for everyone? I think there's part of the concern is the feasibility of this. We certainly look at the history around Maribel, Pickering. We know the lands were released from Pickering last year, 53 years later. And so that, the skepticism, arise from that. I have asked both the minister and certainly Alto staff, the CIO, for a business plan, I have not yet received a business plan. I've also asked if there has been certainly economic development study for Eastern Ontario,

have not seen that. So when you say who is going to write this, what are the benefits, I think those studies are very pertinent to justify the $60 billion cost. In saying that, as I said before, I think there is a tourism component that will benefit where there is a station.

So certainly I think our tourist operators in the county will benefit. I think people that are coming into Toronto for appointments, health appointments, coming in for different events, certainly I can see that as a benefit. But in saying that our communities, rural communities, cannot be left divided. I will mention you say 60 billion. That's on the low end. Could also 60 to 90 billion.

I want to pick up on something that Mayor Leelhood mentioned about the sort of the economic opportunities here. At one point in 2025, we know the city of Peterborough's unemployment rate was about 10%, the second highest in Ontario. Do you see, as we mentioned geographically, you're just around there. This is an opportunity for members in your community. For jobs, we're talking 50,000 potentially is what Alto is saying. Well, absolutely. For procurement for locally, I see that as a benefit. Certainly the jobs as well initially.

What will the spinoff be? I'm certainly there will be. So that is an opportunity. As I say, we are for this project. It is just not when we could do the elevated version and therefore have those certainly pathways through and leave our communities whole. That is what we are lobbying for.

We talk about sort of the opportunities there. Well, let's talk about increased revenue. What does that mean for Peterborough if this gets built? Well, Jane, and frankly, we're getting a lot of calls now of people who want to make the move to Peterborough, the city of Peterborough and beyond. I mean, we're looking at choosing a station. We've already started preliminary work.

Conversations with Alto in the southeast corner, commonly referred to the Coal Springs area in Peterborough. And one of the reasons why we looked at that is because that can become the transportation hub for the region, ease of getting people in and out. The criteria set for by Alto is 40 square meters for a station, that means about 10 acres. And I certainly see it as an on-route type station offering a whole wide range of services to people come in.

We have seen part of the business plan by Alto, where they believe they can control and grow the passenger usage up to 24 million passengers by the year 2041. And that is an incredible story in itself. Again, 30 colleges and universities within this corridor. And I know, as I've been traveling over the years, Eastern Ontario, the ability to get access of what I call the big five hospitals on University Avenue in Toronto is pretty important, or vice versa, to get access to a wonderful medical infrastructure in the city of Montreal.

So we're all going to benefit from Alto. There's going to be a few years before. for shovels hit the ground. So I want to know, Warden Clark, what would you like to see change about the proposal before you potentially agree with it? First of all, the consultation process. We are getting certainly mixed messages. First of all, the station, I was told at the one open house that it was to be within a kilometer of the boundary of the city. Then I was told it was not. So those mixed messages, we have to be more transparent, get the facts out, narrow the corridor down

so we know exactly where it is going and to certainly talk then about the impacts. Now, in saying that, and I will say to Mayor Leal, the airport is in the county. I would think twinning that with the station would be very feasible. It is on the corridor of the 115. and Highway 28.

And that makes more sense to me as a hub, certainly to draw up from the Port Hope area, which is expanding as well. So I think there has to be each municipality, there has to be a wholesome, robust transparency and that when we do ask questions that we are not just heard, sometimes I feel, and I've had several meetings,

that it's a checkbox. Got it. and that our concerns aren't being addressed. And also, I want to stress, let's do the right model. What is the best practice? Is it the viaduct? Well, do it right. If, you know, the answer is it's too costly,

then I would say narrow it down and do the right thing and leave, you know, when I will come back and say, certainly a nation-building project, is for everyone and leaves communities whole. With that, Mayor Leal, what do you think needs to happen to bring more people on board with a proposed railway plan? Well, first of all, in terms of the station, we made a strategic decision, an original plan

that was brought forward when Mr. Trudeau was the prime minister would be a downtown Peterborough location. We said that's not appropriate in terms of serving on a regional basis. So we want to go into the southeast corner. Our staff, our engineering staff have looked at it. We looked at the planning of it. We're pretty committed to doing that. We're going to develop a secondary plan.

And our team has looked to the whole region. And when you look at the access to that point, it's really quite incredible. It's close enough to Peterborough Regional Airport. It just makes sense. We are certainly pitching this on economics and potential for the growing of our region as one of the seven stops. When you look at Peterborough and are kind of the counterpart in the province of Quebec of Tuat-Rivier, these two communities, Peterborough-Tau-Rivier, have the best advantage of taking the maximum impact

of economic benefits to the broader region. And someday down the road, in many years to come, I want people to look back and say, look, the politicians and the political leaders of the day made the right decision to bring this project to Ontario and Quebec. This is a conversation that we will probably have a few more times around this table. But Warden Clark, Mayor Leal, I want to thank you so much for your time and really appreciate it. I'm sure we will continue again. Thank you. Thanks so much.

Commuters, delivery drivers, a lot of people swear by e-bikes. But others are concerned they pose a safety risk. Now, the province is looking to update the rules of the road. Michael Longfield is. is Executive Director of Cycle, Toronto. And Fresh from a cycle himself to our studios, joins us here. How are you doing? Great, thanks. Yeah, a nice bike ride here.

All right. Well, I want to get a lay of the land first with our conversations about e-bike. What is currently considered an e-bike? Yeah, it's actually quite a broad definition. And I think this is really one of the challenges that this proposal is looking to address. Right now, within the provincial definition, you know, it's a vehicle that goes under 32 kilometers per hour. It has a motor that's under 500 watts. It can look like a bicycle.

It can look like a scooter. It can even look like a motorcycle. If it has some kind of pedals, though, it meets within this current rubric of an e-bike. And what are the current rules around where an e-bike can be ridden? Yeah. Because it's a bit different across. Yeah, it is.

And it changes by municipality. So, you know, one municipality might have different rules than others, but of course we're in Toronto. And broadly speaking, most e-bikes are allowed in most cycling infrastructure. broadly speaking. There's some slight variations there, but that actually just creates a lot of confusion. And so, yeah, ultimately what's kind of coming down the pipe might actually help clarify things a lot. So just to clarify, potentially is allowed in bike lanes and on the road, not on the sidewalks. Yeah. Nothing on the sidewalks. Exactly. There we go. Okay. Unless you're,

unless you're a kid riding a small bicycle, no bikes on the sidewalk. There you go. When it comes to being insured or licensed, is there anything currently that that requires? No, not if it's meeting Again, this fairly broad criteria of what the province is considering an e-bikes. So, again, if it looks like a moped, it looks like a scooter, but it has pedals and is under 32 kilometers per hour, technically you don't need licensing or insurance for it. All right. Ontario's the Ministry of Transportation recently proposed new e-bike regulations. First off, what do you think overall in terms of what they're proposing?

I mean, this might be a bit shocking given, you know, we're Cycle Toronto and we recently took the provincial government to court over its attempt to rip out bike lanes. But we're actually quite supportive of what the ministry is proposing here. I think it's a very good grounding in terms of helping, I think, both consumers and the general public and industry along what is a knee bike. All right. And so what's the changes? What would the definition of an e-bike look like under these? Yeah, so some of the things would stay similar.

The current speed limit of 32 columns per hour, the current motor restriction to 500 watts. But one of the big differences they're proposing is actually including some basically some physical descriptors to better describe, say an e-bike between any moped or a low-speed motorcycle. So within the new definitions, you know, an e-bike would require an adjustable saddle. It would require no footrest. It would specifically require working pedals and or a hand crank. And so, you know, with this, it would better differentiate, you know, a lot of these moped-style vehicles that currently do meet the definition, but would exclude them from the new definition of

a so-called power-assisted vehicle. And insurance as well. So not insurance on the bicycle-style ones. So things that would still qualify as power-assisted vehicles, i.e. e-bikes, would not require insurance, but those other things that are no longer, so the moped, scooters, low-speed motorcycles, those would potentially require licensing and insurance. They would basically need to meet a federal standard for a motor vehicle. Okay. Now, with that, one of the things is we've seen a lot of these e-bikes over the years.

License and insurance is quite expensive. Yep. And I am curious, what does that mean for gig workers who use e-bikes? who are often precariously employed. What does that mean for them? Because this does set up sort of a two-tier system in a way. Yeah, it does. And I think one of the things that's good about the proposal is they are suggesting a kind of

year-long period before the enforcement will go into effect. So potentially gives people some time to either, you know, get that licensing, get that insurance, or transitions with a different style of vehicle. I do think that, you know, it's been a bit of the Wild West in this. And, you know, MTO's maybe been lagging behind. where the industry's been. And, you know, a lot of people, especially gig workers,

have bought vehicles in good faith. And, you know, certainly myself, I rely on food delivery. It's really important for local businesses. It's a big part of our economy. And so there is a potential downside here. But at the same time, the status quo was not tenable.

And so I think the MTO moving the direction they are in proposing these regulations is probably the right way to move forward on this. Do you think people who are in this conversation right now when it comes to e-bikes are like, well, this doesn't really protect. to me. I don't really use bike lanes. I don't really use e-bikes. You know, I've had maybe perhaps some bad experiences. But really, this changes a lot of things. As you mentioned, you know, what people

use in terms of food couriers and in terms of all of that. Do we, do we have a better, broader senses to what sort of a ripple effect this will have? I think it will have a pretty big impact. You know, certainly e-bikes and in themselves have really been a game changer, especially since the pandemic. You know, we talked about the fact that I biked here. I came on a bike share e-bike. You know, this trip wouldn't have been possible up Young Street, you know, that steep hill, getting ready for the studio, you know, I probably wouldn't have done it on a conventional bike. And so it really can open up a lot of trips for people, people with disabilities, seniors as well. For a lot of folks as well, like an e-cargo bike can replace a car. It's not necessarily, you know, going to transition all your trips by bike, but can really open up new possibilities.

And so I think, you know, these regulations are really doing an important job of helping, you know, basically helping Toronto catch up. to where the industry is and help unlock this for more people, while, again, ensuring it's clearer to consumers and end users what is or isn't an e-bike. I think a lot of the concern that we might hear, you know, especially on both sides of the political spectrum, about, you know, this kind of like, air quotes, e-bike menace. A lot of these vehicles are technically legal and are already meeting provincial standards. And so by tightening those standards and providing better regulatory clarity,

I think it'll make it more straightforward for all of road users. Does that make enforcement a bit easier as well? It does. Yeah. I mean, one of the things that we found is, and we've done this, you know, kind of quiz with elected officials, with police officers, even with gig workers. It's sort of showing people pictures of vehicles and saying, is this legal or not? And you actually can't tell by looking at things. A lot of things that look like motorcycles technically meet the standard of e-bikes. A lot of things that look like bicycles aren't legal either because they have much more powerful motors or much faster. So, again, these types of regulations will make it a little bit easier to be able to look at something and know where it's. shouldn't go or not. And same thing, too, when you're buying things, like knowing, I think right now people are buying things in good faith. The industry isn't very well regulated. I think that's something we need the federal government to step in on. But it'll help consumers as well sort of know, like, oh, right, this is, looks more like an e-bike. It's meeting these various criteria. I know, I can be pretty confident I'm going to be able to use this on Toronto streets and sidewalks,

or not sidewalks, and on bike lanes. Well, you're talking about the quiz. I am curious. What other things is, you know, Cycle T.O. doing and sort of educating riders about e-bikes. Yeah, so we've been doing some really great engagement sessions working with the biking lawyer and bike brigade, having sessions with gig workers to kind of let them know about, you know, where their vehicle may or may not be legal, letting them know rules of the road. The feedback on that's been really great. And I think for us, it's confirmed that, again, people aren't doing things to try to skirt the rules. It's that the rules themselves are quite vague. And just relying on enforcement on the end user really isn't a solution. We need industry to be better aligned.

We need the federal government involved. One of the things, too, that I think is really missing from the provincial proposal are standards around battery safety standards. You know, there is a lot of concern about, you know, the risk of e-bikes on our roads. But the biggest danger from our perspective is around battery fires. I think Fire Chief Jessup has said it's one of the biggest causes of fires in Toronto. And it's really only the federal government that can provide that level of standards. And so Health Canada's currently doing some work around lithium battery safety standards that currently won't apply to bicycles. And so one of the things we're hoping the province will do is continue to work with the feds to provide those standards to e-bikes as well.

Michael, I really appreciate it. This was quite insightful. Might get me on an e-bike one of these days. I really appreciate your time. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. I'm Jan. Thanks for watching The Run Down. Have you ever ridden an e-bike? If so, what do you think? Let me know. Send an email to rundown at tbO.org or leave us a comment on YouTube. Until then, I'll see you tomorrow. If you're enjoying this series, please consider supporting TVO with a donation to make more insightful and thought-provoking podcast possible. TVO is a registered charity and you will receive a tax receipt for your gift. Visit TVO.org slash give t-vote. to make your donation today.