The Agenda with Steve Paikin (Audio) - How Has Pride Changed?

Episode Date: June 13, 2024

Pride celebrations in Ontario have transformed since the first "Gay Day Picnic" on Hanlan's point in August 1971. Toronto's Pride parade estimated over 2 million spectators last year. As corporate participation increases and celebrations become more mainstream, has pride strayed from its roots as a place of protest? And, are pride celebrations really a place where everyone can freely express themselves?See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

From epic camping trips to scenic local hikes, spending time outdoors is a great way to create lasting memories to share with friends and family. This summer, TVO is celebrating the natural wonders that inspire unforgettable adventures with great documentaries, articles, and learning resources about beloved parks in Ontario and beyond. Visit tvo.me slash Ontario summer stories for all this and more. And be sure to tell us your stories for a chance to win great prizes. Help TVO create a better world through the power of learning. Visit TVO.org and make a tax-deductible donation today. Pride celebrations in our province have transformed since the first gay day picnic on Hanlon's Point in August 1971.

Toronto's Pride Parade had an estimated 2 million plus spectators last year. As corporate participation increases and celebrations become more mainstream, has Pride strayed from its roots as a place of protest? And are Pride celebrations really a place where everyone can freely express themselves? Let's find out from Lance T. McCready, Associate Professor at OISE, the Ontario Institute for Studies in Education, and Steering Committee Lead at the Black Gay Men's Network of Ontario. Reverend Sherry DeNovo, Minister at Trinity St. Paul's Centre for Faith, Justice and the Arts, and former MPP for

Parkdale High Park. Tatiana Ferguson, co-founder and managing director of the Black Queer Youth Collective. And Erica Lenti, deputy editor of features at Chatelaine and a columnist at TVO.org. And I guess I'll start by saying happy Pride Month, everybody, and great to have you all here at TVO. I'm going back more than 50 years, Sherry DeNovo, because I think you were at the first ever one, weren't you? I was. I was a brunette, and that was my girlfriend, and I am a queer dinosaur.

So this will be my 53rd Pride. How about that? So that was when, yeah, 1971. And I have to point out, it was also political. It was not just a celebration, because later that month, we went to Ottawa. I was the only woman to sign on then. Group of utopian hippies who demanded utopian items

like same-sex marriage, not to be fired, that people could rent to us, that we could keep our children. And we didn't think we'd win any of them. And Steve, we won all of them. Same. Sheldon, you want to bring the picture up? I think we've got a shot from this. Sherry, are you in this shot? I'm that smiler right in the middle there with the fist on my chest. Yeah, with long, dark hair. Yeah. And that's my girlfriend just to the left.

That's 51 years ago, that shot? 53 years. 53 years ago, that shot. Yeah. How old? Gosh, that's right. I know, I'm old. That's 1971. 1971. My goodness. Okay, okay. How do you think the Pride celebrations have changed since then? Well, they've become far more successful. We've passed major pieces of legislation. As you know, I was honoured to perform the first legalised same-sex marriage way back when in 2001 and all sorts of other stuff. My concern is they've become corporate. That's OK. People need money. I just wish those same corporations that march in pride, i.e. the banks, where they do business internationally, would also fly their pride flags and would also influence local governments to change some really outrageous anti-queer laws. If they did that, I think they've earned admission to the pride parade.

So I think, you know, just to hit a word to the wise there, that would be nice. Erica, let's pick up on that. There is a lot more corporate influence in Pride nowadays. Certainly. Good thing or bad thing? You know, I think it's mixed. I think to Sherry's point, yes, Pride corporations need money. We need to be able to have parades and to have larger spaces for everyone to come about. Are those corporations making space or funding all of our communities, everyone who's part of the communities

that are celebrating at Pride? And also to Sherry's point, I think even at home, are clients of, say, the big banks or the corporations that are funding or participating in Pride, are they treating their queer and trans clients the way they should be? You know, I remember way back when, you know, maybe a decade ago, conversations about trans people being deadnamed by their banks while the banks were... Sorry, help me with that. Dead named by the banks?

Dead named. So using their name that they had at birth that they no longer use on their bank accounts, for instance, and not being able to access their banking because of it. And, you know, if you're going to fly a flag at the parade, if you're going to, you know, stick a bunch of rainbow flags all over your banks everywhere and say, we're the, you know, the sponsors of Pride in Toronto this year, maybe think about how you're treating the people who are, you know, your clients. You got to walk the walk, not just talk the talk. Precisely, Steve. Okay, all right. How about you, Lance? So the increasing

involvement of corporations in Pride celebrations, what's your view? Well, clearly that's not what the purpose of Pride was originally, is not to involve corporations. And I think that, you know, I don't even know if really we should always be focusing on that. I mean, I think we're right now in a moment where there's a lot of divided opinions about sort of the purpose of Pride. You know, I went to the Pride Pub at University of Toronto and, you know, the pub started at 4 o'clock and the first hour or two, there's a lot of kids games. There's like a tic-tac-toe thing out.

I mean, like the kids running around with rainbow flags. And I'm like, wow, this is like a pride celebration. And, you know, part of that is to celebrate, you know, now the rights and the recognition of queer families, and that's good. But on the other hand, the more subversive sort of roots of pride get lost in that sort of celebration. So you have sort of the TD Bank and sort of the,

you know, the bodybuilder guys, you know, like half naked in the little steam shower and everybody's like, ogling them. And then you have sort of Queers Against Israeli Apartheid or Black Lives Matter trying to really intervene in Pride and sort of break up this whole big sort of uncritical celebration. So I feel like, you know, we're just in a very sort of divided slash like time when there are lots of different ideas of pride. And I think it even

goes beyond, it includes sort of whether or not the question of whether or not sort of corporations should be included in pride, but it's actually beyond that too. Well, Tatiana, do you prefer it when it's more sort of overtly political or do you prefer it when it's sort of more fun for the whole family, let the banks endorse it, that kind of thing? I kind of prefer both. I think that the involvement of corporations speak to kind of progress. We have queer and trans people in leadership, in executive roles. We have the banks that are kind of showing support to their employees and their staff who are LGBTQ. So I think that it's important for us to celebrate, you know, progress, like how far we've come.

The fact that, like, you no longer have to be uh hidden or ashamed of being queer and this is kind of how some multinational corporations are showing their support showing allyship directly investing in community too so the black queer youth collective we serve black or trans youth and we have a few corporate sponsors and not to say that our work is influenced by them because we'll never allow a funder to dictate how we work. But it's nice to have that support. And equally, I think for employees, if you're working at a company that has a history, it kind of increases visibility. A lot of my work, especially in terms of promoting gender inclusion and even responding to anti-Black racism, has been about, you know, increasing visibility of the diverse spectrums of community.

has been about, you know, increasing visibility of the diverse spectrums of community. How far have we come from, you know, the original origins of pride? I think that there's still a lot of fights that's needed. I think, as mentioned, you know, there's still a lot of challenges that trans and non-binary people are experiencing. And trans as a spectrum, you know, trans as an umbrella term, has expanded so much that even within the trans community, we're seeing these gender diversity needs be unmet. Let me pick up on that with with Erica. You know, Sherry gave a list at the beginning of all the things that she was protesting for 53 years ago.

And as she points out, all of them have come to pass. It raises a question, I think, among some about whether or not we even need Pride Month anymore. Do we need any of this anymore? Because you've won. What do you say? I don't think we've won at all. I don't know that the panel here would even agree with that. what's happening in New Brunswick, Alberta, and Saskatchewan just in this past year alone in terms of trans rights, limiting the rights of children in schools in terms of how they can identify

and if their parents are notified about those identities. I think, you know, Alberta has affected health care in terms of whether trans youth can access gender-affirming care. I think those are major, major fights that are still going on. And then I think, you know, there's, you know, there's everyday discriminations, there's microaggressions that happen every day, and on top of that, when you add intersectional identities, so folks who are part of our communities, who are lesbian, gay, bisexual, trans, queer, however they identify, when you add on the other identities that they also hold, so if they are part of, you know, an indigenous community, if they are black,

if they're a person of color, if they have disabilities, if they're lower income, that also makes, you know, the experiences that they have very different from, say, the cis, queer, lesbian, gay folks like perhaps Sherry and I. And I think we need to, it's so important, I think, for folks like me, who I'm not trans, I'm a lesbian, and I'm white, I think it's so important for people like me to center ourselves and say we need to fight for those who don't

have the rights that I have. Because I think I wouldn't necessarily have the rights that I have without the help of other folks in those communities. And a really crucial part of being part of the LGBTQ2S plus community is remembering that there are people with so many different lived experiences around us and uplifting those people. So, yes, pride is very, very necessary. Pride is still a place of protest as well? Yes, and it should be. And absolutely, I agree with what was just said. And here's the problem.

I see it as backlash, and we should expect this. I've also been a feminist since day one backlash and we should expect this. I've also been a feminist since day one and welcomed the shift to womanist and to having black and women of color be part of that and trans women be part of that. And we've been fighting against feminists who think only white women should be feminists. But so it's always like three steps forward and like a step back. My fear about this step back is that this is aimed at our children. So the first aim in Canada, I mean, south of the border,

there are over 300 bills, many of which have become laws against transgender diverse and non-binary folk. Oh, this is outrageous. I mean, you can't say gay in Florida. So we are not immune to that. We're seeing it happen in three of our provinces. One that had to bring in the notwithstanding clause

to overturn rights with one to be able to bring that in. Of outing children. The most vulnerable children in our schools are being outed to parents who are not supportive. Because if they were supportive, they'd already been out to them. So, I mean, it's our children that are being aimed at. And I think that's really important to emphasize

because people think it's not, and it is. And we have the highest rate of suicide among our youth. We always have had of queer youth, but it's going up now instead of down. And so, you know, the fight is on now, and it's for our most vulnerable children. There's another, Lance, I guess, another debate as to how family-friendly the Pride event should be. You know, if you're going to really protest a lot of the issues that have been raised here today, you know, you may not want little kids

at these kinds of events. Alternatively, there are some parts of Pride that are very family-friendly and, you know, people squirting each other with squirt guns, that kind of thing, which is lots of fun. Where are you on that? Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, I have, on one hand,

when I came out and went to my first Pride parade in New York City, and I was marching with a group called Gay Men of African Descent, which is sort of parallel to the Black Gay Men's Network Ontario, I remembered there were sort of those brave parents. You always think of the kids in the strollers, that they're pushing their kids and in the parade and with the sort of the rainbow flag. And I think children are always involved in these political debates and actions that children are often implicated because they're seen as innocent when they're not innocent. They're caught up in the same social structures

and the society that we have, so I don't think that they'd be seen as innocent. So, I guess I don't always see the parades themselves as always the big family time, but I know other people see that as that's the point where we're supposed to be representing our acceptance and representing the fact that sort of queer people have families.

You know, I like a little, you know, Pride pub, maybe that wasn't such a bad idea. Like four to six, let's bring out the slide and the jumpy thing and the tic-tac-toe. And then usually the sun goes down, the DJ comes out and the clothes come off and like there's the other side of Pride. Okay, let me get to that then.

Tatiana, you know, you don't have to be a bigot to be concerned about overt displays of sexuality and nudity and how do i want to put this you know guys wearing dildos and this kind of stuff in front of little kids do you think all of that's still appropriate so even with the parade itself not everyone's naked. There will be, I think, these subgroups. And I think it's important to talk about kink, to talk about sex education. You know, we see how lack of education

has resulted in some of the harms to children and youth. So, I do think that Pride is a full day. It's a full month now, thankfully. So, there are lots of opportunities to create spaces for families to talk about sex education, to talk about how do you increase your competency and your efficacy with working with your children, for service providers to network. It doesn't just have to center around the parade and the marches itself.

And it definitely shouldn't center just around the BDS community or other sub-communities within our community. Because it's a wide range. I think we have very conservative LGBTQ people. We have trans folks that, of course, they're still fighting for liberation. They're still fighting for visibility. Non-binary identities that we've seen a surge in that there are more non-binary folks opposed to traditionally trans people. So they're viewing their gender expression in ways that's non-conforming.

And I think it's important that parents, caregivers, care providers, businesses, everyone adapt to kind of take some time to listen to what does this community need. And then act accordingly, you know, address policies, implement things that's going to really support the community. So with that said, in terms of children at Pride, I do think there's a place for children to be at Pride because there's been so much shame about Pride. And there is a need to celebrate progress and to celebrate the fact that being queer or trans is not abnormal. It's a human experience. So, yeah, definitely. I hear that. But can I get you to weigh in on the issue of whether kids ought to be present when there is overt nudity, overt sexuality, overt, overt, overt. What's your view? I think that that's used so frequently as a scapegoat for, you know, folks who want to oppress us to say, well, the LGBTQ2S plus community, they get naked in front of children and they're not safe. It's not a safe

place for our children. It's, you know, they have ill intent with children. And I just don't think that's the case. I mean, I think, frankly, I don't think seeing a naked person needs to mean that it's being sexualized. I think that it's, you know, that's human biology. I think there are a lot of spaces at Pride that are specifically for families. There's definitely little, you know, booths and spots during Pride weekend where you can bring your kids and they can do the whole, you know, tic-tac-toe and all the fun stuff. That's meant for families. And then there are parts of Pride that are more, you know, sex-centred, more kink-centred, and that's for, you know, adults, and that's for folks who are consenting to be there. And so I think when we stop using that as an excuse to say, oh, well, you know, queer and

trans people are trying to, you know, centre children in sexual positions that they shouldn't be in, I just think that that is, I don't know that that is a fair representation. Cherry. I had a tweet that went viral that said, you know, who's not on Epstein's list? Drag queens who read stories to children in libraries. Right. And there's nothing shameful about sex. It's all through the Bible.

I just have to say that as a person of faith. There's nothing shameful about sex. It's all through the Bible. Just have to say that as a person of faith. There's nothing shameful about a naked body. And I took my children when they were very little. We went to Mardi Gras in New Orleans. There was a lot of heterosexual nudity, I have to say. And my son, who was like five, they were throwing things to him, like beads and stuff. He had the whale of a time. I mean, here's a chance for parents to talk to their children about sexuality and nudity. So, I mean, I think, you know, for my generation and other generations,

sometimes we're squeamish about it. We shouldn't be. I mean, this is part of human experience and it's an opportunity for learning. And it's, you know, it's when it becomes shameful that it becomes dangerous. Yeah. And before we move on, I agree. I think so. Talking about sexual diversity is one thing. Talking about nudity, body positivity, but even consent. I think it's important that we do center that. And speaking to a kind of who's choosing to show up in which way and how we cultivate spaces for that ongoing learning. And let's be honest, like we were in the pandemic for like two, three years.

Most folks have access to their phone, so they can literally search whatever they want to see. But don't you think that it's difficult or the challenge is there is a lot of religious diversity and especially we see that in Toronto and Ontario, not all people of, you know, of all different faiths really agree on or have one way in which they talk to their kids about sort of sexuality and sex. And there's lots of different sort of beliefs about sort of what is appropriate or respectful in terms of how much of your body that you show. There's lots of, you know, different beliefs about like who, like how old or what position you are within a family or community to be able to talk about sex or sexuality. So I think those sorts of differences are what make this really complicated. Well, let's get a little intersectional here, shall we?

Okay, Sheldon, bring this picture up if you would. I'm on the top of page three. This is from the 2016 Pride Parade where a contingent of Black Lives Matter protesters stopped the parade. I don't think any of us is unmindful about what was going on at that time. And this was a very fraught time. And BLM had really just started to capture a great deal of attention. OK, Lance, start us off here. Are Pride parades safe spaces for white people? Well, I mean, I think it's hard to do these sort of universal statements of safe or not safe. I'm sure there's some white people that don't feel safe,

especially when that happened. I remember what I was doing. I was sort of in the parade. I was marching with the Black Coalition for AIDS Prevention. And I remember we sat down, and we were sitting down for a long time. I was with the executive director, Shannon. I was like, OK. So I wasn't even a part of the sort of the Black Lives Matter contingent.

I didn't know all of what was going on. I wouldn't describe my reaction as not feeling safe. I just sort of didn't know. And I know that there were some. There are a lot of that year. some, there are a lot of that year also, there are a lot of discussions. There are a lot of, I think we were trying to sort of ban the police from the parade that year. There were sort of white police officers that were saying that they didn't necessarily feel safe. There were sort of other sort of, you know, white folks generally that saying that they

didn't necessarily know what was going on, that they didn't feel safe. I think that there were, you know, non-black, non-white people that were sort of confused and didn't know. But I think, you know, the way pride has evolved is, you know, we create these pockets even within the mainstream pride. So there's the blocko stage. That's often the same place where African-Caribbean black queer folks like will go or want to stop by to feel like their culture is being represented. And they are sort of safe in that space, but they may not be safe, you know, in front of the 519 or in the, within the, whatever the garden, whatever that garden is called. Just for those who know, the 519 or in the within the whatever the garden whatever that garden is called just for those who know the 519 is a community center in the part of the gay village downtown so i think

it's all i think the compromise has been okay we'll have these mainstream organ um celebrations and then we'll also have these pockets these other places you know that where you can go and if you don't feel quite um you know um comfortable in the mainstream space, you can go to your own sort of ethnocultural or, you know, kink or identity-based space and feel more comfortable there. And then it's the responsibility of Pride to sponsor and sort of have these resources and acknowledge the need for these. Touchdown, let me get you on that. Yeah, I think, I guess, what would make white people feel unsafe at Pride? Is it the increased representation?

Like, not the, I don't necessarily think that anyone should feel unwelcome at Pride. Pride is a time that we celebrate, you know, the diversity of queerness. We celebrate how integrated our communities are. Definitely, when it comes to protest that's where it it might be a dividing line because essentially you're going to be picking sides so we can all share an identity but very much have different views in terms of personal views you

know and i don't necessarily i've been in many spaces trans spaces black spaces newcomer spaces um given my work across the country. And I've never, I would say white people represent always the majority. So they should always feel like they are amongst peers. But I step into these spaces knowing that, you know, I'm welcome. So I step into a trans space knowing that I am a black trans woman. You know, I step into newcomer spaces knowing that I am originally from the Bahamas. I migrated to Canada. So I think that for me, it's hard for me to really, I guess, understand

where white folks may feel compromised, especially when they represent the vast majority. You know, I've always felt safe. It's a sea of white. Yeah, I mean, I've always felt safe and I'm white in Pride for 53 years. And I was there when Black Lives Matter. I was behind Janiyah Khan, I think, when they spoke and they were amazing. And you know what gets me is people complain, well, it stopped the parade. And I'm thinking, when has Pride ever moved on top?

Yes. When has Pride ever not stopped? I mean, so there is that. And just to correct perhaps a misperception, police have always been welcomed in Pride, just not in uniform. Yeah. So keep your uniforms at home

because the uniform signals, you know, a very painful period in Pride history. And we remember that. I mean, the bathhouse raids, blah, blah, blah. I think if you're white and you feel uncomfortable at Pride, there might be something else going on. Well, OK, but Erica, do the Pride organizers need to make sure that the—I'm asking, I don't know. Do they need to make sure that everybody feels comfortable at Pride? Because there are occasions when, you know, some sections of the intersectionality kind of take over the political

agenda of the thing. Yeah, I don't know that that's white people. I think often, you know, when we talk about making sure that all parts of the community feel welcome, I think we're talking a lot about marginalized folks. So we're talking about, you know, part of BLM stopping the parade was making sure Blockarama had better funding so that you know all black queer and trans folks who are attending feel like they're not getting you know shafted into a little parking lot to celebrate their culture where you know white folks have like everywhere yeah or you know trans folks being able to you know have the trans March and be able to

find space there when, you know, a lot of, say, gay men and lesbian women are being centered in the big parade or something like that. So I think, yes, making sure that, you know, there's a vast number of communities being represented and supported in Pride. I think that's super important. But I don't necessarily think it is, you know, white cis people. No, no, I know what you mean. We don't want to give the impression that all LGBTQ people think the same way about all the issues. So there are political divisions within the movement, obviously. Yes. And the idea is, you know, for one month anyway, everybody shows up and partakes

and somehow, I don't know, figures out a way to get along during this period of time and shows unity and so on. Tougher to do nowadays, Sherry? I don't know. What do you think? I don't think it's tougher to do nowadays necessarily. I think it might be easier. I mean, you know, like being at Pride, you know, being queer back in the day was a dangerous walk to walk some days. And it still is.

And sometimes I get the feeling that we're reverting a bit because of the backlash. But I mean, honestly, just to be celebratory for a moment, I celebrate the fact that there's two million people. I celebrate the fact that all political parties celebrate. This is wonderful. This is called progress. What we just have to be very careful of is that nobody gets left behind. But you, as a former politician, I presume are, well, I shouldn't presume, I'll ask.

The deputy leader of the Conservative Party of Canada is an openly gay woman. I presume you are happy about that. You may not like her politics, but you got to love that. Oh, no, Melissa. I mean, God bless, I say. I mean, like, honestly, I mean, that's good. That's good news, I think. I mean, first of all, we, you know, we have to remind ourselves in politics, you know, this, Steve, that we don't want a one party state, because if you talk to, you know, politicians and political parties, you'd think they did. So there's always going to be conservatives. Guess what?

So, yes. Should they be diverse? I hope so, because they're human. So, good on her. We disagree completely about most things, but certainly we agree on queer issues. And if she's in pride, I'll go say hi. I don't think I don't necessarily think that conservative politics equate to whiteness. I think that's a harmful perspective to take. No, if you look at the conservative caucus, it's clearly not the case. I mean, I think here in Canada, like I said, white represents the majority, but there will always be, when we think about intersectionality, there will always be representation of women. There will always be representation of diverse communities, even in subgroups that are more diverse.

So I think that those are conflicting notions that it's hard to grapple with, you know, to say that, okay, we have these right wing and these left wings or these liberals and these progressive thinkers, because I feel like there's room for this mix. Like I talked about, obviously, you know, creating spaces for education, to talk about consent, to talk about sexuality, talk about body positivity, to talk about race and racism, to talk about gender inclusion. But there's also space for us to just have fun. And, you know, if you want to wear some, like I'm wearing these pink liners today, if you want to put on some sparkle, put on some lashes, if you want to wear some heels, it's okay to play. You know what you've reminded me?

I forgot to wear the pink jacket today. I was gonna wear the pink jacket for this show. Did you bring the sparkly boots? I did not either. No, I totally let everybody down when it comes to fashion today. Ah, but you know what? Tell me.

Under this suit can be something kinky. Can I assure you of something? There isn't. There isn't. I also wanted to, I mean, I'm also always concerned when actually we focus too much on just being unified. Because I feel like that in itself can sometimes drown out or really cause us to pass over some important differences

that we have, right? Which are okay to have. Which are okay to have, and I think are an important part of sort of living and sharing space together, like in Toronto, sort of globally. I think that's the difficult part. I don't think that we all have to believe in the same exact thing in order for us to share space

and even to be equitable. No community all believes in the same thing. Yeah, but I think that's sometimes one of the dangers of a kind of pride sort of message is that we're all unified in everything. No, we're all believing that we have a right to and we should share space and be in dialogue and conversation with each other,

and we should all be treated fairly. I think that's what we're agreed on. You know, we're not all agreed on whether or not the symbol of pride should be a rainbow. We're not all, you know, agreed on the fact of who should go first in the order of pride in the pride parade and who should be sort of last, you know, or...

So there's lots of, you know, different sort of beliefs around, and, Cher, you're right, around the police that were so much, you know, in uniform, not at pride at all, like out of uniform in pride, you know, which floats. Like there's always every year there's a lot of sort of debate and discussion. And in some ways, it's a good model for what we should how we need to be in dialogue and constant in conversations about these things that are so important to us. And I thank the Reverend Sherry DeNovo and Erica Linty for coming in on that side of the table and Lance T. McCready and Tatiana Ferguson for coming in on the other side of the table. Happy Pride Month, everybody, and enjoy. Awesome.

The Agenda with Steve Paikin is made possible through generous philanthropic contributions Thank you.