The Agenda with Steve Paikin (Audio) - How Will Ontario Place Be Remembered?

Episode Date: March 25, 2025

Ontario Place may be under redevelopment, but the park holds a special place for thousands of Ontarians who swim, bike, and play on the grounds. And in her new TVO Original documentary "Your Tomorrow," director Ali Weinstein shows how people continue to bring meaning and magic to one of Ontario's crown jewels. Joining Jeyan Jeganathan to discuss are Ali Weinstein and two of the film's participants: Julia Sasso and Peter Welsh.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Renew your 2.0 TVO with more thought-provoking documentaries, insightful current affairs coverage, and fun programs and learning experiences for kids. Regular contributions from people like you help us make a difference in the lives of Ontarians of all ages. Visit tvo.me slash 2025 donate to renew your support or make a first- donation and continue to discover your 2-point TVO. Ontario Place may be under redevelopment, but the park holds a special place for millions of visitors who swim, bike and play on its grounds. And in her new TVO original documentary, Your Tomorrow, director Ali Weinstein shows how people continue

to bring meaning and magic to one of Ontario's crown jewels. Joining us to discuss are Allie Weinstein herself and two of the film's participants, Julia Sasso and Peter Welsh. Welcome to our studios. Thanks for having us. All right, Allie, I'm gonna start with you. Why did you want to make a film about Ontario Place?

Basically because I love Ontario Place. It's sort of as simple as that. I spent a lot of time there in the pandemic in 2020. I went there in the summer. And I hadn't been there in years since I was a kid. Why not? I mean, because I think that I always thought of it as like a family place, like for children, for younger people.

And as I grew up and became a teenager, it just didn't really seem like, it just wasn't really on my radar. And then I left home, moved away for university, just kind of, I don't think it was also really marketed as much anymore. Like it just wasn't really something on my radar. And then eventually, as we all know,

Ontario Play shut down in 2012. And to be honest, I wasn't really paying that much attention to it then. And it was only in 2020 that I found myself just like wandering down to the waterfront. Everyone was trying to be outside more because we couldn't congregate in indoor spaces. And it was so magical.

There were so many just pathways through forests and old rides and beaches and all the beautiful, old futuristic architecture. And there were like art installations that people had put up. And so it just became this magical place that my friends and I would go to as our like pandemic gathering spot. OK.

Yeah. I am curious. So Julia and Peter are just a small portion of the participants who are in this documentary. You cover a lot of ground and a lot of people. How did you come across these two? Well, it's interesting. So Julia actually has a special role.

She's in the film saying some really amazing things about what the place means to her. But in those pandemic years where I was spending a lot of time there, there was one fateful day on the beach that I was lying there with my then boyfriend, Benny. And I saw Julia, and she was wearing this shirt that had all these reggae concert listings on it.

And I chatted with her about it. And we were just talking, and as time went on on the beach, more people were coming to the beach, and Julia seemed to know all these people, like from different ages, different backgrounds, they were all coming together. And I thought, oh, there's a community here, these are regulars.

Well, I'm curious, is that the same story that you remember meeting Allie? And tell me that the same story that you remember meeting Ali? And tell me about this community. Do you remember that moment? I do. I know which t-shirt I was wearing. It was from Summerfest 85 or something like that. And it had all the band names on the back.

My memory was when we started talking. I was standing, Ali was lying down or sitting, and people were coming and I was going, oh hi Dan, oh hi Jill, oh hi so and so. And she's like, you know all these people. And I met so many people. And as a former teacher, it was important to me to remember their names.

So I started writing them down. OK. And I've got a notebook with over 100 names. These are people that I saw regularly. I swam with, talked to. It was my new community. I never had so many friends in my life. Suddenly I had all these interesting people.

I all did something different. Very nice. Peter, we were just talking on camera. You two didn't know each other, but you guys knew of each other. Faces, regular faces on Ontario Place. Yeah. I mean, it's just interesting to hear Julia talk about her community that focused around the beach.

And I had a similar community, but it was a little more inland, up around the silos and the wooded areas. But a very similar, I didn't make lists of names, but I did make a lot of friends that I would regularly see there. But I definitely recognize Julia from those days. Yeah. Tell me about the community that you're talking about specifically, because you are a wildlife photographer. Is that kind of the group of people that you're hanging out with?

Somewhat. I mean a lot of people that I met there would go there for birding and other wildlife. It wasn't just birds, a lot of other wildlife at Ontario Place. But there was just a lot of people that just went there just to decompress, just to step outside, just step away from life downtown, all that. You only have to look across the water, and all of a sudden it's busy, busy cars, everything else. And Ontario Place was just so many people.

I am curious, when did you start going to Ontario Place? I think it was when it opened up again. I can't remember the year. I wasn't doing a lot of wildlife photography there. I just went there more out of curiosity. Because I moved to Toronto shortly after. I guess it closed. I moved to Toronto, I think, in 2013. So I didn't really know much about it.

And then it closed. So I didn't know really anything about it, other than that there was a sign that I could see as I passed along Lakeshore Boulevard. But then it opened up. Remember the year? It was around 2015 or 2016 that they kind of like opened the gates of Ontario Place without much active programming at all inside.

Suddenly it became just like a public park that you were allowed to walk through. And that was cool. Yeah. Because when they first opened it up, you could go everywhere. What were your fondest memories? At that moment or in general? At that moment, yeah. At that moment, it was just being a kid again.

You know, just being six. Just going exploring. It was just, and people didn't stop doing that, even though eventually, Ontario plays figured out, well, maybe we should board these areas up. People really shouldn't go in there, fair enough. But people all the time, I would see people, young and old, just exploring, climbing over stuff, just being a kid again.

That was it. I think that's a really interesting point that you bring up, because that's a theme, I feel, in the film that I didn't really expect going into it. And I feel like it was in production, maybe even in the edit, that I really saw that emerging between. It's something I felt. My initial days falling back in love with Ontario Place

during the pandemic, I felt so much wonder and freedom in a way that I don't normally in my everyday life, just getting to explore this place. And I saw that in so many people like Nunu, who's in the film, planting his flowers and vegetables, and Steve, another swimmer. Like for so many people, it just brought out this sense of freedom and creativity, I feel. Well, I'm curious. I want to pick up, we talked about swimming.

You have swim up on your shirt. Yes. I can imagine that you get in the water quite often when Ontario Place was open. When did you start going? Well, I had been to Ontario Place back in the 70s when I moved to Toronto, also moved to Toronto. And I had been on the flume ride and then several concerts at the Forum. Used to see the National Ballet of Canada. You know, all kinds of bands on that revolving stage.

And then later, whatever the next iteration of the concert venue was. I can't remember what it was called. And then it closed for many years. And it was right at the beginning of the pandemic. I cycled a lot. And I was looking for places to go. And I met up with a friend. And she said, have you been to Ontario Place?

It's really interesting. Never even thought of it. I went the very next day. And I cycled by the beach and went, oh, my goodness. Took my shoes and socks off. The next day, I was back in my swimsuit. All right. And that was it.

Very quickly, I do want to show, I know you brought in some props here. Can you tell us, I mean, can you imagine, these are from the shores of right off of Lake Ontario? Yes. Yes. Well, you know, so many incredible things would wash up on shore.

Every day was different. I was especially drawn to the, I call them the bones of trees that are driftwood, all polished and beautiful. All these interesting little pieces of fragments of glass. This one says Canada on it. Just treasures. And yeah, it really did bring out the kid. You'd see people bringing their kids, and they're just collecting rocks and bits of glass

and things like that. And that's all you need. You don't need anything else. So water, rocks, sunshine, clouds. Perfect. There you go. It had everything. All right.

I want to play a short little snippet of the doc. Let's have a look at that. The landscape is the same, but many places have changed. It's really different from what we had a few years ago. Things change. No matter the time and space, the scenery never changes. Oh, there's finally a road. Everything changes. No matter the time and space, the scenery never changes. Oh, there's finally a boat! There was a couple sitting by the water discussing how people and things change, but the scenery stays the same. Now, Ali, I'm curious. Making a documentary means you must be highly selective.

There are a lot of lots of footage that did not make it into this. Why did you want to include that part of the film? Well, Grace and Rocky, the couple that sit there on their Muskoka chairs daily, I met them very early on in the process of making the film. They were just there on those Mascotca chairs and we were just getting some shots of the landscape and shot them from afar.

And then we got a little closer and told them what we were doing and asked if we could shoot them a little bit closer. And then afterwards we spoke to them and Grace said a really beautiful thing to me. She said, we come here every day and we never see the same view twice because the lake is always changing.

And I just thought, this is incredible. And maybe, since they're such regulars, like maybe we can see them through the seasons. I knew this film would sort of show the different seasons that Ontario plays. And so we kept filming them. Every time we saw them, they appear in the film a few times. And I mean, in a way way I feel like they're this,

they kind of show the passage of time through the film and their own personal story while it's very short. Like each scene is not that long, but they also have their own journey of thinking about where they want to live and where they might want to end up as they get older in their retirement. And so their reflections on what they're looking at kind of mirror their own personal life a little bit.

Talking about change and the passage of time and I just thought it was really poetic and beautiful. Well speaking of passage of time, you choose to include a lot of archival footage showing just how busy it used to be. But that changed over time, of course. It was closed in 2012, as we mentioned. Parts were redeveloped and reopened. How do you think the space changed or evolved for people?

I mean, once the doors reopened and people could, they sort of, you know, realized that they're able to walk through this space, I think that it took a little bit of time for people to even know that they could do that, because we were used to having it be closed off to us. It's a really one. Yeah.

Yeah. And so I think that it was probably less busy in the earlier years of its reopening. And then I think the pandemic really brought a lot of new people to that space. And I think that when it opened in 71, it was such an exciting time in Canada, in a way. There was so much talk about identity, what

our identity was as Canadians. And it's actually quite interesting being now 50, how many, 50 some odd years later. And we're actually in a new moment of patriotism that I haven't seen in my lifetime, honestly. And it's an interesting time to have a conversation about what we want for our tomorrow, in a way. But I think that in 71, there was just like a lot of pride in this beautiful space

with this really cool futuristic architecture and the first IMAX cinema in the world. And there was just so much adventure and culture on display there. futuristic architecture and the first IMAX cinema in the world. And there was just so much adventure and culture on display there. So the role that Ontario Place had in recent years as a de facto public park is interesting, because it's not the same as it was in 71.

But the city around it had changed a lot, too. Toronto is not the Toronto of 71. There are so many condos, obviously huge tall towers. And Liberty Village is right next to Ontario Place. There's countless people there who don't have outdoor space in their homes. And Ontario Place was literally their backyard. And so what the public sort of needs were have changed.

And I know it's Ontario place and not just about Toronto. But I think also what makes a cool tourist attraction for other Ontarians, Canadians, people from around the world, I think that's also changed over time. And we don't have a lot of public spaces, a lot of places to go be near nature in a big city. So I think it served a really, really important purpose at that moment in time.

All right, before I come to you guys, I do want to show another clip. This I want for our viewers and listeners, just to sit back, when you talk about that importance of having green space, I just want our viewers to sit back and relax and enjoy the calm in this next time. Very, very nice. All right. For those listening on podcast, there were scenes of overgrown parts of the West Island

buildings, and it ended with a participant of the dock tending to some flowers and a bee. Peter, I want to come to you first. When some people see that space, they see a place that needs fixing up. And that was probably when you first started going there. It was when it was closed down. You probably saw the same thing.

You described some of those parts. When you see it, what do you see? In the closest comparison, I can put it to as like an adventure playground, which is something that's maybe more British than Canadian. Adventure playgrounds, playgrounds that kids can go play. They're not fixed up.

They don't have off-the-shelf parts and components. And it's reflected a lot on the film. I only saw the film when it got released on TVO Docs a few days ago. But it's just a place. And I mean this in the best sense of the word, it's a place to go and do nothing. It's a place to just be yourself. It wasn't fixed up. And not to say it should have stayed in that condition, I'm not really suggesting that, although I think that would have been great.

But it was just because it wasn't fixed up people would just go there. I don't know goof around. You know people would just go there. I mean literally one of my favorite scenes in the movie was a five-second clip of this young man playing music and dancing. That was it. I mean the whole film is great but that seconds, I saw that happen so many times. People go in there and singing. It's not often I go to, maybe ever,

that I go to any other park in Toronto. And I hear someone literally singing out loud to themselves. Just letting loose and singing. Just letting loose. Someone with their music dancing. And that happened. I mean, you only captured that one five second moment, but that happened all the time.

All right. Julia, how about your take? When you see those images, what do you see? I see a wild place. For me, when I went to Ontario Place, I wasn't in Toronto anymore. I was, I could go 15 minutes on my bicycle straight downhill and I was at the lake and all I saw was lake, sky, grass, trees, birds, beavers, herons, minks, swans, foxes. So wildlife, people just chilling, doing their thing.

It was amazing. I don't have a cottage. I don't have a car. This was a respite for me. Yeah. Can I add to that? Yeah, sure. Because this to me is also really important.

When you started mentioning some of the species, because I do photography. I'm not a professional photographer, but I have to take photos for work, for going around the entire GTA or mostly Mississauga. I do environmental consulting and site analysis. So, I will take photos of wildlife when I go to someone's site.

And when I go off site, I will go to a nearby habitat area, Mississauga, Orangeville, wherever it is. So I've been birding in photography for 10, 20 years. Ontario Place was like nothing else. How so? The density, the sheer numbers of species, and then the volume of those species, I could go somewhere like the Riverwood Conservancy, which is a fantastic place to go witness wildlife. I'll go there and I'll spend two hours and I'll see 10 species of birds, let's say. Then I'll go to our Ontario place and I'll see 15 species of birds.

And a lot of them. And some of them extremely rare uncommon birds. In such a small, look at the size of Ontario Place and the size of the Riverwood Conservancy, it's not even comparable. In such a small little dense area, the species volume and diversity was like nothing I've ever seen. Okay, very interesting. Ali, I'm curious, you described this as a love letter

to Ontario Place. Reflecting on that now, how do you feel about that statement? I think when I first decided I wanted to make this film, it was meant very much to be a love letter. I really wanted to capture the feeling that I got when I was at Ontario Place every time I went there. And I think that I did. But as I was filming, the redevelopment became more present than I expected to.

It was all kind of creeping in a little bit faster than I expected it to. And so that aspect of things wound its way into the film more than I initially intended. And some of the people I was filming with, a different birdwatcher, Francesca, who Pete is in a scene with Francesca in the film, she became very heavily involved with activism work

to keep Ontario Place public. So that type of stuff wound into the film. And I think now just sort of knowing that the West Island has now been demolished, all 850 trees there demolished, so all these birds that Pete's talking about no longer have that space to go. When I watch the film now, it feels like it's still a love letter, but some people have told me

it also feels like a bit of a eulogy, which makes me feel sad, but it's the truth. It's the truth. And I think that my intention with calling the film Your Tomorrow, which is something that comes from the original 1971 promotional material for Ontario Place, where it describes itself as a place to show you your creativity, your work, your tomorrow. It was very futuristic and future looking for the public.

And I chose that title as sort of like a question mark, like meant to show people, OK, here's the space that we have, and what do we want for our tomorrow? And so, yeah, I mean, I would be lying if I said that now that title doesn't really have a different meaning for me, because now that more has happened at Ontario Place and what we love about it has been taken away, it doesn't feel as much of a question mark anymore.

It feels more of a question mark anymore. It feels more of a statement. And it's a sad statement in my mind. But there is still a question of how we want that space and other places to be built for us and what we want to go there for the benefit of citizens in the city and the province. All right.

Julia, what was it like being part of a project like this? It was a hoot. I was thrilled that I made it into the final cut. Yeah, it was fun. You know, Allie and Andrew became friends. We saw them there all the time. And as Allie said, she and Andrew shot a lot of footage that didn't make it into the film. Like there was one day when she asked me, because I used to go down there and exercise and swim and sun

and all the rest of it. And she said, is it OK if Andrew films you doing your exercises, my world famous exercises on the beach? And I said, sure. And so I'm like swinging my rocks and my arms for like 20 minutes. Can I stop now? Can I stop now?

It didn't make it into the film but I think I am pumping rocks while I'm talking. Everyone is going to be out there pumping rocks and realize they don't need to buy weights. All right we have a minute left and I'm curious I want to know you know will you go back once it reopens and I want to go around the table start with Peter will you go back once it reopens? And I want to go around the table, start with Peter. Will you go back when it reopens? If I go back, it'll, because I post a lot of my photos and stuff online, if I go back, it'll be to show the tragedy. It'll spend a day at Ontario Place and show what I don't see, what I do see.

I mean, it wouldn't surprise me if when it reopens. One of the remarkable things about Ontario Place in the years that I went there is all the years I never saw a single house sparrow or pigeon. Now these are birds that are all over Toronto. You can't go anywhere without seeing them. I anticipate that when I go back, all I'm going to see is house sparrows and pigeons, which are non-native birds. So this kind of indicates what I fear will happen. But will I go back?

I can't even go down to the waterfront and look in that direction, because it's heartbreaking. Julia? that direction because it's heartbreaking. Julia? I might go back to spray paint on the going inside the spa, paying money for the spa. I mean, I'm still going down there. I'm still going to the lake. I'm going to, you know, some of us go to Trillium Park. Some of us go to further west, Humber Bay Park west to swim.

You know, it's all we have left. So yeah, that's my answer. All right. How do you get the last word on that? I don't intend to go to the spa. I don't have any interest in going to the spa there. What I might go back for is to see films at the Cinesphere, because the plan is that the Cinesphere and the pods

are going to remain. And the Cinesphere is an absolutely incredible cinema. It's apparently one of Christopher Nolan's favorite cinemas in the world. He hasn't talked about it before. It is insane to get that view and those seats and the surround sound in there. It's so special.

And I actually can't wait for it to reopen, to see films in there again. However, I think it's going to be a very different experience going there than it used to be, because when that's right next door to a huge towering building that's enclosed this formally outdoor natural space, I do fear the sort of sadness and tragedy, as Pete put it, of just seeing this place I used

to love so, so, so much every time I go to the cinema. But I don't know. It's tough because I want the cinosphere to remain active and support that when it reopens. All right. Well, we are going to leave it there. Callie, Peter, Julia, thank you so much for sharing your story.

And beautiful doc. We recommend people to check it out. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you.