The Agenda with Steve Paikin (Audio) - How Women Navigate the Challenges of Leadership

Episode Date: September 7, 2024

What's the journey like for women who want to take on leadership roles? Tabatha Bull, the President and CEO of the Canadian Council for Indigenous Business; Lisa Laronde, President of the Canadian Association of Women in Construction, and President of RSG International; and Dionne Sinclair, Vice President of Clinical Operations and Chief Nursing Executive at the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health, join Nam Kiwanuka to share their insights.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

We're thrilled to be joined by three influential women leaders who work in areas that intersect with municipalities. We'll hear about their journeys and insights into the challenges that despite it being 2024 still exist today. We welcome Tabitha Bolk, the president and CEO of the Canadian Council for Indigenous Business, Lisa Larronde, president of the Canadian Association of Women in Construction and President of RSG International, and Dionne Sinclair, Vice President of Clinical Operations and Chief Nursing Executive at the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health. It's an honour to share this stage and to learn from you today.

Thank you so much for being here. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. You know, I was born during a civil war and lived in a refugee camp. And I never could have imagined the life that I have today, the fact that I'm sitting here on stage with the three of you, sitting in front of an audience of some of the most

influential people in the province. I wanted to ask you a question about when you think about when you were say 10, 11, 12, what would you say to your 10-year-old self about the journey to come and what would you say to her about staying the course when it was difficult? Dion, I'll start with you. Alright, so thank you. Thank you very much for that question. And to my 10-year-old self, I would say keep going. Disregard all the naysayers. You can do this, and it is worth it in the end. What about when it got difficult? What would you say to her?

When it got difficult, call your mom. A lot of times you don't listen to her, but mothers know best. And I have to say many times going through school wasn't easy. I wanted to quit. It's like, I can just be an RPN and I'll just do this. And mom said, nope, you're going to keep going, so listen to your mother. I'm going to send that to my kids right now. What about you, Lisa? I think I would say find your community.

One of the things I've found throughout my journey is that you need to surround yourself with people that support you, that believe in you. Otherwise, you won't surround yourself with the positive people. And I think that that's really important. My journey into the construction industry was very, very difficult. And I actually thought I was alone.

And one of the reasons that I actually sought out the Canadian Association of Women in Construction, or CAWIC, was because I needed to find some like-minded women that were in similar positions to myself, so that I could look for guidance and advice and just feel like I wasn't alone and I wasn't you know that there was a light at the end of the tunnel or that I could be successful at the end of the journey so I think I would tell my tell my ten-year-old self find your community always remember that failure is not the end it's very important when you talk to entrepreneurs,

successful entrepreneurs, they all say the road was very difficult, they failed, they got back up, they tried again. And I think that's very important. I do tell some women, you know, it's okay if you've been fired. There's nothing wrong with that. Now, you just find a different path,

or you find a company that is aligned with your career goals, or your core values, or you look at even starting your own business and I think the opportunities are there for everybody we just have to show courage empathy and continue. I think that's so great for you to say that because I think we often look at failure as you know there's nothing else left but I've learned in my four decades the planet is like failure is actually information. Yeah, right Could your ten-year-old self have imagined the life that you're living right now? Absolutely not Absolutely not and and when my father was an immigrant to the country and and it's interesting as I went through some equity 101 training

I thought that I was I grew up in Northern, Ontario You know my my father's first language wasn't English, so I thought that I was not, I didn't come from this place of privilege until I actually went through some Equity 101 training and understanding is I do really, I have privilege. And one of the things I'd like to be able to do is use my voice for others that don't have

the same privilege in life or the same voice. But as my 10-year-old, I thought I was going to grow up in Northern Ontario privilege in life or the same voice. But as my 10 year old, I thought I was gonna grow up in Northern Ontario and Toronto was the big city, I never thought I'd see the light of day down here. Well look at you now. Yeah, thank you. And what about you, Tamatha? I think I would say to look for something

that you feel really passionate about and believe in, in your work and in your journey. It's really important, for me it was very important as a mom, leaving and working while I was raising my children for me to be going to doing and doing a job that I really believed in. And I thought, this is going to make a difference. That made it a lot easier for me to get on a plane

and miss field trips and concerts, when I could really explain, but I'm doing this because it's making a difference in supporting people and our people. And I think I'd also say to really find your value and believe in your value. And as indigenous people, one of our teachings is around humility.

So it's very hard sometimes to really put your value out there and really believe in your value. But it's very important as women for us to ensure that we're really sitting within our value. And as an indigenous woman, for me to really hold onto that and express that isn't something that comes naturally to me, but it's really ensured that I've

been able to sit in places and at tables that I never would have imagined I'd be able to sit at. And to celebrate your accomplishments. Yeah, exactly. I think it's one thing for us to be co-signed onto the agreement that women who are leading need the support. I had trouble voicing my ambition, and I think when it comes to women, ambition is still kind of like a dirty word.

Were you ever scared about voicing your ambitions? Were you ever nervous about actually saying out loud what it is that you wanted to do? I see you smiling. Lisa, I'll give it to you first. I think definitely, I think you know as a woman and and I had I had great career goals I always wanted to be CEO of a company if you were to talk to my 15 year old self that's exactly what I wanted to do. That's very specific. It's truly and you know actually anybody that you that you would meet I should have probably a lawyer. And because it was very important for me

to get my view across and my point across, and I couldn't understand why my voice wasn't carrying any weight, or I would be coming into a room as an adult with all men, and why my voice was much less than, I just didn't understand it, it didn't make any sense to me. I've always been about, you know, diversity and equity and inclusion, and I I think that together I don't want all

people that look like me think like me because we'll never make good decisions. It's nice to have this, you know, diversified approach to things so you can say I actually didn't look at things that way or you know what I don't know what it's like to walk in your shoes so maybe we should change something else. And I think Tabatha you had a really good example about we scheduled board meetings in the summer, first thing in the morning when you're trying to get your kids to camp.

So if you want women to participate in boards, then you need to actually adjust just the way that we do. And we could schedule that meeting at 10 o'clock. There's nothing wrong with that. So it's just interesting that we just don't voice that enough to say we want to be included and we want to be at the table, but maybe we have to change a few things because everybody looks at it to some degree as a threat.

And I think the more ambitious that you are and the more that you get your point across and you say to people, we're here to be successful, to participate and to be leaders and to show the next generation to represent that we can be here and we bring a lot to the table. What about you, Tabitha? Yeah, I think, you know, when I first came into this role as CEO, I did a talk with Ivy School about leadership and one of the students asked me what I thought about imposter syndrome.

And no word of a lie, I had to Google what imposter syndrome was. Luckily it was a virtual call and I could quickly like on my phone. And it but not to say that I never had that I think it's just that we've keep coming up with new names for things that are natural feelings for everybody to feel. So imposter syndrome is basically like you don't feel like you belong. Yeah. And you're like, what am I doing here? I shouldn't be here.

This is bigger than I am. And I have those thoughts all the time. And particularly in this role, I've had these incredible opportunities to be a voice at the North American Leadership Summit, as an example, in Mexico City. Canada did a really great job of having women and indigenous women there, two indigenous women there. None of the other countries had any indigenous representation there, and one country only had

one woman. But to have the opportunity to be the voice, it's so important to me and it's such an incredible opportunity that I have this opportunity to hold the microphone. So definitely in those moments, I am thinking what am I doing here? And if I would have thought, am I 15-year-old self, like, that's what I want to be doing, never in a million years would I have considered that. But I think equally important is if I have that mic,

the opportunity to share it with other people that are at the table as well. And for Dion, for you, you grew up in my hometown of London, Ontario, and when you were in school, a teacher had essentially decided what you were capable of. So how did you confront that? For me it was understanding my roots and where I came from.

I was told I was in college or university material. However, I didn't believe it because leaving Jamaica I was told I was a scholarship girl, meaning I'm the best and one of the brightest, and so I took that with me coming to Canada as an immigrant. I have to just say that I've always shared with others what I want to be because they're my best allies. If I tell someone I'd like to be a CEO, then the next time you're in a room where somebody is saying, hey, we might need an interim CEO somewhere, someone would speak up and say, well, I heard that Dionne, she was at this panel, she says she

wants that. So someone can actually speak your name in rooms where opportunities being discussed if they know what your thoughts and dreams are. So I always share with people I mentor, let others know what your goals and dreams are, they can assist you. And I just have to comment on the imposter syndrome because I thought I had that growing up and going through different leadership positions.

And then I was told, no, check yourself and find out if it's not imposter treatment. Sometimes you go into rooms and people treat you like you don't belong, treat you like you're not qualified, treat you like that's not your room. You shouldn't be there. And so if you decide that, no, I am qualified. I have experience. I do belong here. I have something to contribute. It's no longer imposter syndrome, but you might call it imposter treatment, and then that's a projection from somebody else onto you. And I imagine, too, it probably gets a little, sorry,

I heard a little, a few claps. I imagine, too, it probably gets a little exhausting, too, because you're trying to explain why you're in the rooms that you are in when you're also trying to just contribute and be a part of the team. And Dion, you had an interesting take on tokenism. How would you describe tokenism then? Well, when it comes to people thinking, oh, well, she's just here because she's black.

One of the things I do know, I studied very hard to get where I am. I have two master's degrees. I've got the BSCN. I'm a certified healthcare executive. I understand who I am and what I've done to get where I am so I'm not feeling sorry for those people who try to treat me like a token however they're just ill-informed and sometimes I don't have time to inform them but my work demonstrates for itself. Like it's I don't believe what you say because I watch what you do people I watch what you do,

people should watch what I do, and those actions speak louder. And I think sometimes tokenism is an opportunity because it actually gets you to the table and then you can actually make change. So sometimes I think, you know, that maybe this is the way that the door has to be open or that we can actually make change and just get out there and be represented on boards, on executive panels. I think it's very important. Women are usually asked about how they balance work

and life and home. And I was nervous bringing this up, because I also don't think it's a fair question. But the reality is that more than half of women are doing that. In 2022, more than half of women are doing that. In 2022, more than half of women, 52%, were caregivers to children or care-dependent adults, paid and unpaid. What do you think needs to change to address that? I think, you know, we definitely saw with COVID and working from home, but then, you know,

that child-caring responsibility that we do know that night, right? Yeah, trying to work and take care of kids and teach them. And that we still know, you know, a majority of women do more of the childcare. But I know that, you know, we're seeing more and more men take on that role, which is incredible and share that role. But as we, you know, I'm definitely part of the sandwich generation and as my parents age as well. That's getting really difficult on a number of women

and caregivers. I think we were able to really think about how could this world work with people being able to work from home and care for their children and have flexible time and flexible hours, perhaps not come into the office every day. Things like when meetings start, you know, it's a lot easier for people to be able to take their kids to childcare. Maybe they're on on a call while they're doing that and then get back to their desk at home and be able to do that. But

I think there's so much of a push now to move back to how we used to be. And I I really question what the motive is that and who's really pushing for that. Because the people that I talk to that really want everybody to be back in the office five days a week, eight to five, aren't necessarily the people who see the benefit of being able to raise their children and help support and be there with their children. And I think our work days change now as well. You'll have Much more travel that's that's done You have have many more engagements that are going on in the evening or me or more activities

So I think we have to move away from the traditional daycare hours I know in construction it's a huge issue for us because they're only open for certain amounts of time as well as It's not affordable for it for a lot of you know single parents or even parents it's not affordable for a lot of single parents or even parents that just don't make a lot of money. So I think we have to change the way that we look at it and what options do we have for childcare. We've evolved where the senior generation used to look after the kids or could be there in the morning and be there at night which give you a little more flexibility.

So we have to look at now new ways of how do we deal with that? I don't have any of those answers, but we really do have to change that traditional model of a work week and daycare hours. So as a registered nurse, there was no such thing as a traditional work week. I worked Christmas, all the holidays, night shift, 12 hour days, 12 hour nights, and we adjusted.

The one thing I can say since COVID, I love that right to disconnect. We have to say, you know what? I'm not gonna answer any more emails. I am not even going to look at my phone. I'm going to do this for myself, go for a walk and leave the phone at home. Sometimes I believe we need to do that for ourselves,

say no, because friends will come and ask you to do this, this, this, and that, and you'll have to say, not right now, or no is a full sentence. It's okay. We can do that. And that helps with that balance. And let people know that, you know what, I'm going to take some time for myself right now. And I love if anybody watches Shitscreen and while your Rose says all the airplane videos you got to put your mask on first so take care of yourself first before you can take care of others so you have to remember that being all things to all people doesn't actually help them at all and it ends up hurting you so sometimes you can say I'm gonna take a break, just take some time. How do we have these conversations where the

reality is that if you have children and you have a career there is kind of that push and pull that's going on. And I think that's in anything that you do whether you know and you can as I work, we don't have work-life balance, we have flexibility. So I think we have to move away from the traditional, you know, roles that this is what perfect or this is what good looks like, and be a little bit more flexible to say you're going to miss some events, you're going to miss, but as somebody who works in non-traditional hours, so any of our first responders, again,

they're missing all kinds of events. Anybody that's at sea, they're missing all kinds of events. So I think we have to move past, and I guess this is where the judgment comes in, that you can still be a career person with a family and a woman, and in your mind you have it all and you may not be great at everything but you need some level of flexibility. I've talked to some of the senior executives and they had four day work weeks and that's what worked for them.

Somebody else had a nanny and I'm not saying these are options available to everybody but we just have to be a little bit more creative to say the ideal of being this top executive and having this perfect family doesn't exist. Everything will be a challenge and a struggle, but let's find our courage and our community and our support network so that we can be successful in what we feel is successful and not how other people judge us. What about you, Tami? I think the other thing is we really need to think about people being able to leave

exit and return to the workforce. So I have a lot of friends who raised their children, and now their children are off at university, and they're trying to get back into the workforce. And the number of times they get asked the question of, you have this big gap in your resume, like, what were you doing? Like, what do you think they were doing?

Surviving. Exactly. But, and I think it's also, you know, as we talk about board diversity and leadership, and getting people into leadership positions, we're also really looking at like, well, do you have the experience? So if we want a person on our board, but were you a CEO, it's going to be very difficult for us to diversify boards and leadership if we continue to look for experience.

And we need to really start to think about thinking about asking about potential. Does this person have the potential to assess risk? Do they have the potential to work under pressure? Do they have the potential to ensure that there's harmonious work within a workforce? Like that's what is a leader, not necessarily have they been in this position before. And if we're really going to think about diversifying and ensuring that there's an opportunity for flexibility and for us not penalizing people who had flexible work time. We need to really think about that, looking at the potential of a person versus the experience. And

there is some really good work going on, on that about even, you know, part of it is about us, how do we rebuild the database of data, and as we think about AI, if all of the things that are feeding AI are typical senior white male who's worked his way up and not taken time off work and has been in a CEO, and that's what we're then looking at when we're doing recruiting, that's what we're going to find a success. So we need to also think about the data that we're putting into those functions to really have that diverse thought and think about the leadership skills that

are really required. And also, that's the person that probably can do the networking after work, the golfing on the weekend. Dionne? No, I was going to say you have to intentionally include or you unintentionally exclude. So when you're looking for diverse voices,

no matter where it is, either aboard or in your executive team, you can hire for attitude and train for the skill. Most people bring transferable skills, whether you've worked at home, if you're coaching your son or daughter's sports team, many, many transferable skills, leadership skills are there. So the skills you can train for, attitude is what you hire for, and intentionally include what you're missing. So take a look around your organization, the leadership team, the board, and you have to do that because it doesn't happen organically. I won't call it organism, but you have to go out and intentionally be inclusive because it won't happen

otherwise. And I think when you said earlier, you know, you have to put your hand up to say, I'm actually interested in this. I'd like to be part of the board. And then you need sponsorship. You need people to take you out, introduce you, network and say, here, you know what, here's Deon, look at her skill set. She, you know, I'm going to vouch for her.

That goes so far for sitting on boards, just getting your name out there, networking. And I think that's really what we need to be able to do. You brought up the diversity conversation. We were going to talk about it later, but I'm gonna move it up. I mean it's everywhere in the news. Dionne, you said that you became more outspoken around this conversation after Mr. George Floyd died. You said that no one stepped in, and now you want to step in. Can you talk to us a little bit about that? Yes, I can.

At the time, I was working at South Lake Regional Hospital, director of medicine. And after watching that horrific event on TV, I just got emboldened. I sent an email to the CEO, which I've never done usually. I go through my VP and I said, the black staff here are not okay. We're not doing well. And I wasn't doing well.

People were coming to my office saying, what are we going to do? And I said, something needs to be done. We have to be very vocal that this is not okay. Anti-black racism, not okay. And to her credit, Arden Crystal, at the time she was a CEO of South Lake, she calls me to her office and said, Dion, you're right. We need to do something, and we want you to do something.

And it was like, oh, well, that wasn't what I thought. But I took on the challenge, and knowing about research, I went and looked at the literature. And when it comes to diversity, diversity is just one part of the equation. It's very important to have a diverse board or executive team, but all the diverse people there, do they feel valued? Do they feel appreciated? Do they have a sense of belonging? You know you have DEI correct when people can say, hey, I feel welcomed. I feel I have a voice.

I feel I have an equal opportunity to move up in the organization. Because if you can put 100 black people in any group, but if none of them feel valued or appreciated, they just have their head down saying, hey, I got a job and I got bills, so I'm just here to work, that's not it. But if all the people in the organization on the board, they feel valued, appreciated, their voice matters, they have an equal opportunity to be the chair of the board, then you've got it correct.

And you have to work on the equity and inclusion part, not just diversity. It's important. But that was what I found in the literature. And so now it's like, are you being inclusive? Do your team feel valued and appreciated? It doesn't matter. When we talk about solutions, do you think that diversity,

equity, and inclusion is still part of that conversation? Oh, definitely. And I think, you know, I always say it's a journey, it's not a destination. And it's ever evolving and we're learning. And the only way we're going to get and if we just a diverse population in and represented is at some point you're going to have to you know you're going to change the way

that we do things because you have as some women come out of the workforce and then come back in we have this gap so there and when you're looking at it now they're calling it the broken rung. So you have the young generation coming up, you've got this middle management that there's nobody in there so there's nobody to follow. And we have women in senior leadership roles in all kinds of industries that are now leaving because of burnout. So I think that we need to continue to talk, we need to continue to tell our stories, we need to continue to tell, we need to continue to tell our stories, we need to continue to tell people it still exists,

and the only way we're gonna make change is to use our voices for those people that we can't hear their voices or they don't wanna use their voices, and we have to do this together. We won't make any changes unless we do this together. And I really, if you look even statistically, that if you have women on your senior leadership team,

you're 20% more profitable than those businesses that don't. And in Canada, there's only one in four women in C-level positions, and I think for black women it's one in 16. So you think of even, if I can say my journey is difficult, your journey is much more difficult than mine. That's what we have to change. And I think the numbers are even worse for indigenous women. So we are the change. We are going to get the words out there. It's not

about grandstanding. We need allies. We need people to work with us. We need to support one another as women and we need to show this generation that we can do this. Yeah, we need sponsorship. We need sponsorship, yeah. Savithar? Yeah, I think, you know, I agree with everything you've said and the more and more that we look at corporate organizations as well, so our organization, CCIB, has been around for 40 years and we were, you know, established on building

relationships between Indigenous businesses and non-Indigenous businesses. And that's, it's been 40 years. Like we're still seeing the need for an organization such as ours and the need to really build those bridges. And we heard talk about Indigenous reconciliation and, and about reconciliation action plans. And if there is still not a push through Truth and Reconciliation Commission or through UNDRIP for organizations and municipalities and communities to really understand what it means to be inclusive of the indigenous communities in your

territory, if that push isn't there, we're going to move back to where we were 40 years ago. And I completely agree on employment as well. We really look at, we do see an increase in indigenous people and indigenous women into organizations. But if that organization isn't really looking across the organization at what they're doing, to support indigenous communities as well,

and aren't good actors with indigenous people, those people leave. And I think more and more we see young people who are really, communities as well and aren't good actors with indigenous people, those people leave. And I think more and more we see young people who are really, it's really important to them the values of the company that they work for and that you know that's the same for consumers as well. Really important to understand the values of the consumer and we see that in environment but I think we're going to continue to see that more and more in equity and inclusion. And I think in construction we're looking at a labor shortage and I say that you know what,

if you want to attract top talent and you want people to work for your organization, you can't only have a DEI policy, you actually have to have this inclusive, equitable organization because people aren't, they're just not going to stay. The young generation, they didn't grow up with this now in their schools. I interviewed a young lawyer. And through, she went to Queens University in Kingston. Her parents are international teachers, so she has international experience.

There was lots of women in her school, lots of women in her law school. She chose a law firm that had a lot of women partners, didn't experience any of this, gets in. And her first client says oh are you my lawyer oh no I'd like an older man please the judge isn't going to take you seriously so she said I had no idea how to deal with that I was not prepared I didn't have the skills or the tools because now I didn't experience it throughout my life it up until this point and now I'm in my early 20s and all of a sudden I'm exposed to

it so that's why I think we have to continue to talk about it that it exists my life up until this point and now I'm in my early 20s and all of a sudden I'm exposed to it. So that's why I think we have to continue to talk about it, that it exists and how do we make those changes. And Dionne, hearing that story, I'm sure it must be disappointing because when you were starting out, I was reading something that said there was a patient that refused you because of your sleep-alarm. Oh, yes. They did not want a black nurse to look after them. However, they didn't have a choice because most of us on the unit at the bedside were diverse.

So I, my mom calls it killed them with kindness. I was the one who did everything. Do the bath, comb the hair, brush the dentures, every single thing, and at the end, somebody was extremely grateful for the care, and I'm going to just change that perception. I'm not sure what they were brought up with or what they thought, but leaving that room, I felt really good to the point where it was, are you coming back tomorrow? And it's like, I'll be back tomorrow. So, it's about the care, it's not about the...

There you go, and I didn't take it personal, but boy, am I ever going to change your heart and mind of what you thought. And the truth of the matter is that engineering and construction are still male-dominated fields, Tabatha and Lisa. How is it different being a woman working in these industries compared to other industries? And I know that's the sound of the question sounds crazy, bizarre. But that's the reality, right? Yeah. So I am an engineer by training. And I worked in construction and in the energy sector

for the first 15 years of my career. And we think things are changing, but they're really not. When you were in school, I think you were, what, 19? There was 19 women out of 120? 120 in my class. And in electrical engineering, the other disciplines were a little bit better. It's not changing as much. You know, the thing is, the grads coming out of engineering school,

there is a higher percentage of women, but we don't see women staying in the profession. Like actually getting the professional engineering designation and then staying in the profession and I'm one of those women. So I think there is still, there's still an old boys club. I think in my experience, it's a bit worse because it's kind of gone underground.

We know it's not okay to have that, but it still exists. So it's even harder to like get into the conversation. I think it's worse because it's more hidden. You don't know that the events are happening or you don't know that the conversations are happening, where decisions are being made around promotions or opportunities. So you're not able to really like push yourself to get in there, but they are still happening. And I think, you I think there still is just that opportunity. And I'm sure Lisa can speak to it too.

But I remember being a young engineer going to a construction site and going to the construction trailer, being the only woman in the trailer. And sometimes it was just that somebody would swear and then turn and be like, oh, you can't, oh, I'm really sorry. Like I'm sorry I said that. Which you know, I know that's trying to be respectful, but it's really just like calling out that I'm the only woman in the construction trailer.

Though it's interesting now because my son's in engineering and I've said to him, how many women are in your class? And he's, he doesn't know the number. So he's not seeing it as like, oh, there's not a lot of women here, because the numbers are getting bigger. And I and whenever he's talking about some of his classmates, most of the classmates that are helping him actually, are the women that are his class. So I think there are improvements, but

there's still so much unconscious bias, I know we use that term often, that we're just not really recognizing. So if we think about sitting in that construction trailer or sitting around the boardroom, I really would challenge everybody when you leave that room to really think about did you listen to certain people more than you listen to others? Was there certain people that you maybe were doodling when they were talking, but there was other people that really had your attention? And you know, if you're sitting in that room and you leave that room, think, was there anyone around that table that didn't speak? And what can I

do to make sure that everybody has an opportunity to really provide their information? You know, it doesn't hurt to say, did you want to add something to that to someone around the table and to really ensure that you're really listening equally to everybody that's around the table and to really ensure that you're really listening equally to everybody that's around the table because I will definitely say in my career when I was younger, there were a number of times where if I was speaking, the men at the table had their heads down writing, not really like looking and listening and

thinking about what I was saying. And I know some of that definitely was, you know, probably just about being uncomfortable. We talk about social situations too. So my husband's an engineer as well, we met at work. And the opportunities that he had to like build relationships, go to the hockey game, go play golf, go out and play hockey with like some of the sales guys or the partners or were opportunities that were not presented to me.

And I understand why perhaps an older gentleman doesn't feel comfortable taking a younger 22-year-old girl out to a hockey game and out for dinner. But we have to start thinking about how are we creating opportunities that actually provide that equity so that there are equitable opportunities opportunities and we're still we're still not there but but the problem the problem with that is that you don't you never get exposure to some of those conversations that are happening which is exactly what you're

saying the decision-making the promotions because your voice is never heard I just want to say one thing about the we try not to use male dominance now in my don't male dominated industry and it's a male led industry because it really does send a wrong message that you know The men are dominating and I know that in construction again It's exactly the same thing that it's still the old boys network and as we continually Try to strive to to and we don't need to break it down. We just need to work together Sponsorship is one of the key things that we actually have allies both men and women that will speak for us that will vouch for us that will take us out when I

talk to young women I say one of the things that I would have told my my younger self to tell myself was learn how to golf and and the reason is because of opportunities exactly what Tabitha said and what happens is there's all there's all kinds of golf tournaments. There's all kinds of golf dates or foursomes that you get four hours with decision makers or people. You start to learn who they are, what their expertise is. And you make a connection, and that goes just so much farther.

And I see in golf tournaments, some of the women get up, they're not comfortable. And actually everybody when you go to a golf tournament, everyone has their excuses, my first game of the year, I don't know where, it's not my golf clubs, I'm missing this, whatever. But then what I find, what happens is the women take the first swing, maybe they miss, maybe the ball goes two feet, whatever it is.

Then it's a weird dynamic shift that happens. The men come up and say, here, this is how you hold the club, this is what you do, which is very helpful, but you don't understand now you've actually like positioned yourself as the expert or the leader or the dominant player and now it's uneven and it's really, really difficult to bring that back up if you have confidence because nobody, sometimes the balls in the bush, in the waters it's it's just the way it goes we're not going to try out for the PGA one of the best things that ever happened to me was as a president of my company I was asked to participate in the Pro-Am

in Dallas Texas and my vice president who was man at the mail at the time was pissed off because he wanted to golf and I was not a good golfer and I'd just taken it up. I took it up at the very beginning of COVID. I love the game. It's a game against yourself. I'm not that great, but I love it. And I was like, absolutely, I'm going to go.

Why wouldn't I go? He's like, but you don't golf. I'm like, who cares? I do now. I'm going to be in a room of influential people, private equities there, and part of a foursome, I'm going to network, meet people. Are you kidding me? This is a great opportunity. I got to participate in a women's executive lunch that Annika Soreson talked to, so I've met now all of these people. I just said

it was a huge, huge opportunity that I would never have said yes to if I didn't have the confidence that I'd taken a few lessons and I was not afraid of failing. I think, Nike, you should market golf, what you just said, against yourself. I love that. You mentioned being in those rooms and wanting to have the ears of those people. There's a lot of people here today from government, from different levels of municipal government as well.

You all work in sectors that work closely with all levels of municipal government as well. You all work in sectors that work closely with all levels of government. What are those interactions like as women leaders? Dionne? I have to say being in mental health and addictions right now the government has been very responsive to some of the needs especially when it comes to funding for research at CAMH, we're an academic health science center, and there's funding for research, but also we're working with Ministry of Housing for housing for some of our very in-need patients

who need high support housing. So it's not your typical, oh, they could go to a retirement home or a long-term care home. It's a special purpose-built housing. So we've been working very closely with different governments on housing, on research, and on, I would say, 988 is one of the federal government

is giving funds for. And it's a national call in for anyone who might be suicidal or just wants to talk to someone. So many programs, and the government's been very responsive. I have to say that. Lisa? So I'm also a board member with the Ontario Road Builders Association.

And my industry is actually in road building. So we work quite closely with the Ministry of Transportation and all the ministers. So we do have a very good relationship. And as part of ORBA, they're an advocacy group that is going out to support us. One of the things that I would like to see is industry, government, education and unions get together to look at some of the

ways that we can deal with some of the childcare issues as well as getting women into construction. And I think if we can work together and form a task force or an advisory board, I know KWIC is actually working right now with Mark's Commercial in an advocacy capacity just to begin to actually start this dialogue. Because I feel like there's ways that we can do this, whether it's part of the training fund with the unions that we can put towards getting women in the trades,

as well as looking at different solutions for childcare which I think encompasses everybody that are in non-traditional hourly positions. So for us you start work very very early day cares aren't open or sorry child cares aren't open and sometimes you have to work nights and evenings similar to all of our first responders and people in healthcare and police. So that's kind of what I'd like to see the next step with governments. And Tabitha? Yeah, I think as leading an indigenous not-for-profit,

I think we're definitely at tables, many more tables than we were before, particularly as a business association. And that's thankful to a number of our friends and a number of the other chambers in Business Council of Canada who've really made sure that they held the door open for us when they've been invited.

But I think we're still really struggling with being at the table when policy is initially being established versus once the policy is rolled out, and then we have to go back and ask for changes to recognize the requirements that some indigenous businesses have. But there's definitely progress progress and people are listening. I think the two things that are kind of on my mind really in that space is we really

need governments to work together, municipal, provincial and federal more on policy and on coordination. There's so many tables that we could be sitting at, but we're only a few handful of people that can really be doing that policy and stretching it very thin, but also just coordination. So if we think about environmental assessment work and on roads as an example, particularly for First Nations, the coordination isn't there between the feds and the provinces. And I think the other thing is really about how are we ensuring that we're not continuously

changing the policy with every election. And I know that sounds like really Pollyanna, but it's incredibly hard to get anything done. And I'm sure everybody here sees that in municipal representatives when provincial politics change or federal. But we really need to look at some policy consistency. Like a big worry is all the elections that are coming up and how that's going to impact some of the policies that we've been pushing and been funding that we've been able to get to entrepreneurs across the country.

So really some like sustenance in some of the policy work. We're hearing a lot about women leaving politics for many different reasons, online harassment, not feeling safe. Would any of you ever consider going into politics? You know, it's a no for me too. And it's really a lot because of that. Because of the way that you see women being treated and the women that are currently leaving politics, but also that, like, you know, I hold my hands up to all women that are currently in politics as well. That public persona is very difficult as well.

And I think there's also still this, like, perception about, I'm currently reading this book called Rage Becomes Her. And it's so's such an incredible book, and it's really about how women are still perceived differently when they come across with a really strong voice or with anger, versus a man speaks that way, they're seen as a leader or powerful or they have dominance, they'd be a great leader. But when a woman speaks that way, she's seen as mad really, or unattractive or ugly or, um, yeah.

And I think that is going to be very difficult in for a woman to be in politics as well. Do you worry though, that it creates a vacuum? I, I do. And speaking to some of the MPs who have left recently or have announced that they're leaving I mean that's a worry of theirs also and some of those have you know I have close friendships with I respect so much the work that they've

done and they have been so efficient at the work that they're doing unfortunately that they're they're leaving the world. And they have been some people who have really advocated for more women, so to see them now leave it's really as worrisome that the state it's in. Even for me, three days ago, I was at a meeting and then we were out for drinks afterwards.

I'm very passionate about the topic and I'm raising my voice. And he actually said to me in this bar, which was very loud, saying, I'm staying in the same room with you, I can hear you, stop yelling at me. I said, I'm not yelling at you, we're having a really passionate conversation. But it was interesting that that was the take that happened versus let's just continue to have a conversation. But what happens, what I find with me is obviously I'm very passionate about what I believe in. I'm very aggressive when I'm trying to get my point across.

And when I'm assertive, and when I'm right, I'm right. And so I don't back down. And what happens is I feel like it becomes almost an argument or a fight versus at some point in time you can just say, you know what, I'm right. And I actually make a point now saying at the end, okay, so you might as well just say it now, I'm right.

And I won't let it go anymore because that's what happens. Right, it's like you fight, you fight, you fight, and then it's like, okay, no problem. Like, no, because really we started this, I know what I'm talking about, I know I'm right. It's not like I'm gonna go forward with something that I'm not confident about. So yeah, that's what I'm talking about. I know I'm right. It's not like I'm going to go forward with something that I'm not confident about. So yeah, that's what I was going to say.

We have senior public servants who are female. And so you don't have to be that politician out front all the time. But behind the scenes, Canada has a chief nursing executive for the country. Ontario has a chief nursing executive for the province. And they are incredibly powerful and influential. And sometimes that silent work being done behind the scenes

does a lot, and a lot gets done there. So you don't have to actually run out front in politics, but a lot of our public servants are female, and they're incredibly talented, influential, and they get stuff done. I was going to say another S word, but they get stuff done. But do you worry about the younger women who are coming out and seeing women leaving?

And then, yeah. One of the things I do think with the younger generation is they're used to the online bullying, which I'm not saying it's not acceptable at all, but they're used to dealing with a lot of that, whereas I think the generations, we're just not used to that feedback. It is interesting to me though how the women always get attacked for what they're doing. I've been saying situations when I'm, when we're at trade shows or away, I'm the one who I cannot get drunk and out of control like some of my male counterparts can because I just thought there's a different

Standard for me when I'm out there as well as I don't wouldn't necessarily feel safe But that's what I'm hoping will change And I think the younger generation that they have a higher level of a tolerance not that that should be acceptable But I think that they're they're the ones that are going to make that change To your point I used to work in sports and I had a male co-host and when we went out to network, he could get the numbers of the players. But if I got the numbers of the players, it's like a completely different kind of vibe. Do you think that women lead differently?

Yes. Yes. Yes. So, you know, I think, again, if we go back to COVID and we look at the countries that did really well, those were countries that were led by women, Finland, New Zealand. But I think, and I don't say this is for all, you know, not in general, you know, of course, there's always people. I think women really think more about the whole picture.

And I think we're also, and maybe this is a bit of that we're allowed to, and men maybe don't feel that they're allowed to, but we lead more with heart. So for me, the greatest part of my job is that I'm able to create a space in an environment in my organization where people can actually put themselves and their families first.

And for my team to really feel that their mental health is first, that their kids are first if something happens in their family, cousin, it doesn't have to meet the bereavement policy if your family needs you to be there. And particularly, you know, in Indigenous culture, we're all cousins and aunties and uncles, and you need to be there if somebody needs you. And it's a privilege for me that I can lead an organization, that I can give that opportunity

to my team. And I think, you know, corporate Canada still isn't there, so not necessarily that if you were a woman in that space. I don't know if it's so much about being a woman as it is about the culture of an organization. But I think that we do really, that heart is part of the leadership. And to me, heart-centred leadership is something that is going to be able to ensure that we're moving forward and people are sticking around. And I agree, and I think that we lead with empathy

and courage and collaboration, and it's not about necessarily winning, it's about how we're gonna get there and how everybody's gonna participate in that and how we're gonna be successful as a team and that everybody should have the ability to be promoted and we should be looking, I like the best person for the job but you're only going to get the

best person to the job if you have this inclusive environment that everybody actually has this equal opportunity to be able to get there so I do think that that's what women bring to the table I also think we're not afraid of failure so that we'll go out we'll take risks we'll take chances because we build this team around us that will support us and we collaborate so we're much more comfortable with the decision-making then that will be successful with the decisions that we make. And the role of a leader really is to grow future leaders and as a leader you're looking out for who has that ambition or who is seeking opportunities

and you nurture that, you coach, mentor, sponsor, and when it really comes down to it, you're looking for who's gonna take well for nursing. Who's looking after me? So you want to train up the next generation so they do well. And you're thinking that, give someone else that opportunity, and when you do that that it just makes it better for everyone and people want to come to that environment where they feel that they have opportunity and if you show up in a place it's like well I can't move

up from here no one's staying that long. People will stay if they feel you know they'll give everything and they'll be rewarded for it. We've got three minutes I'm gonna ask this question then I'll give you all 45 seconds to respond to it, please. What would you like to say to the policymakers and politicians who are in this room when it comes to how women in leadership can be supported? Dion, I'll start with you. Ensure that there are opportunities.

Even if it's just an internship, bring someone in that looks different than yourselves and give them that opportunity to see what you can do, learn about what you do because I came yesterday and I walked around and I did not even know half the things that were happening. It's like wow maybe I will get into municipal government just to be part of it. I think you need to celebrate women. I think you need to highlight what we do and find a mechanism to be able to do that and to support initiatives like KWIC that we're trying

to be a national voice for women that are in construction, so to support that way. But again, support women. I think I would say to invite women to the table. So if you might not have someone in the position of hierarchy that your organization would typically invite, a woman in one of those positions, ensure that you invite them anyway.

And it not only gives you exposure to a diverse thought, but it also gives them an exposure to how does this table work? How does the boardroom table work? How does the opportunity to present, how does this table work? How does the boardroom table work? How does the opportunity to present to this group of people work? Even as those learnings come. And I'd also say, as we think about diverse boards

and diverse advisory councils, perhaps in a political sphere, if you have a commitment to ensure that you're diversifying the table and you think you can't find a candidate. First, that's probably not true. But second, leave that chair empty until you actually fill the chair. Don't just fill the chair.

Leave it empty and every time you're at a meeting, you're going to look at that chair and think, we still haven't found somebody to fill that chair. Thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure speaking with you and learning from you. And thank you so much to the audience here. And thank you to AMO and Sabine for the invite again. We appreciate it. Thank you.