The Agenda with Steve Paikin (Audio) - Is Germany the Key Ally Canada Needs?

Episode Date: May 1, 2025

In the world of international affairs, more than 130 countries have diplomatic missions in Canada. But the German ambassador to Canada is a bit different. That's because there are two of them who split the job. They are the husband-and-wife team of Tjorven Bellman and Matthias Lüttenberg. They join host Steve Paikin for a wide-ranging discussion on this unique ambassadorship, Canada-Germany relations in the era of Donald Trump, NATO, Germany's place in the world, and more. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

He was like a father figure to me. Unfortunately, found myself in a very vulnerable position. This is a story about a psychiatrist in Toronto accused of abusing two of his patients, which he denies. It's also a story about a system that is supposed to protect patients. From TVO Podcasts, I'm Krisha Collier, and this is The Oath. Subscribe today wherever you listen. In the world of international affairs, more than 130 countries have diplomatic missions

in Canada. But the German ambassador to Canada is a bit different. That's because there are two of them who split the job. They are the husband and wife team of Kjavun Bellman and Mathias Luttenberg. And we thought we'd invite them in to better understand how all this works and dig into some of the global issues affecting our two countries. Ambassadors, it is great to have you here, Will Komen.

Thank you very much, Steve. Not at all. Let's find out a bit about you two for starters. How did you two meet? In diplomatic school. Is that right? Okay. And was it love at first sight? Well, actually it took some time.

But I think there was a lot of sympathy. Actually we were playing together in the Shakespeare Theatre on stage where we actually were pretending to be a couple, at least on stage, in our first year together. Okay. And you've been married how long now? It's 15 years. 15 years. Yeah.

So who thought of the idea of having one ambassador's job split between two people? It was actually, the story started in Canada in 2017, not on the level of ambassadors, but on the level of Consul General in Montreal. And a married couple went there and they were the first ones to share the job of a head of admission. And which one of you said, I wonder if we could do this? I think we both liked the idea. Yeah? Yeah. Because we both had very demanding positions in headquarters for the last 11 years, basically.

And so we thought it's high time to spend more time with the kids and to also find some time for ourselves. So the way it works is that you take turns. Is that right? Yeah, that's correct. We rotate every eight months. Every eight months. So he is the ambassador right now.

Exactly. And you were the ambassador before. Yes. Okay. Do you each get... how much do you get paid? Like you get double salary? It's only one salary. One salary between the two of you. Okay. When you approached the, presumably, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs for Germany,

and said, we have this idea. What was the reaction? I think in the beginning, they just took note of it. And as there were already colleagues who were doing this in Sweden and in Slovenia at that time, they were not surprised, but I think they were very forthcoming and helping us to pursue this path. How does it actually work? So we are both accredited officially here in Canada. We presented our credentials together

at the governor generals. And as we said, we rotate every eight months. We inform the Canadian authorities before in writing that now there is a rotation and the other person is in charge. And then there is only one person in charge, only one ambassador. But okay, so you're in charge at the moment but I can't believe that you just sort of divorce yourself from the job entirely and don't read emails and don't stay up on things, right?

Actually I don't. I read the news of course and we're here together of course. Whenever we have functions at our house which happens very regularly, I'm there. But other than that, I'm not reading any job related emails at all. And you're not in the briefings or anything? No. And you were not in the previous time when she was the ambassador? I was not. I hardly went to the embassy maybe four or five times to do some administrative stuff. But this is the way it should be.

Also, look into the outside. The presentation should be very clear. There's only one person in charge. We don't want to confuse anybody. And I think it's also better for our team and the embassy to know exactly who is the person to address. Okay. How long is your term as an ambassador? Normally it's four years.

In our case, we hope to stay for five years due to schooling reasons formatted. You want your kids to have the chance to finish the whole thing? Yes. Okay. And is the term renewable? It's extendable. It's extendable. Okay, I see. What is the downside of doing this? Only one salary. Other than that, I can't think of many answers.

Coming from this eight-month experience of not working, of course there are times when you wish you could do a little more than just taking care of the children. We are both professional diplomats and we feel that we have something to invest into the German-Canadian relationship and you would like to be following things closely. But I think you will be in that phase as well at some point in these eight months. But this is also the only thing I could think about and I never really pitied myself for doing this.

I was looking forward to working but I think I will also be fine not working in eight months from now. Okay, I'm going to get mischievous here, okay? Let's make some trouble. Okay, I'm going to get mischievous here, okay? Let's make some trouble. What happens, okay, you're the ambassador right now, and you are taking, let's say, a particular approach to dealing with an issue. And then she becomes the ambassador in December, and she thinks to herself,

this is a dumb way to handle this, we shouldn't be doing this, I want to do this exactly the opposite What do you do? I? Think on the broad line of things we are very much aligned and we've worked in similar issues for a long time We are very different characters though so I don't know I think the decision that the one takes has to be respected and And I don't think you can completely change course every eight months that would drive everybody crazy.

So we just have to make sure that if there are very important decisions to take that we consult each other and we do it in a way that there is continuity in the job. Absolutely. And I think we also carry a responsibility for this job sharing model to work. And if we start confusing our staff, or even our Canadian counterparts, then we would not do a favor to the whole undertaking. Because we want people also to be encouraged

to share their jobs and make it a success story. Also means that from time to time, of course, we are constantly coordinating what we are doing. But on these major questions, the student create the impression as if we were just really black and white and falling apart at every important juncture. But you've inherited the job now from her. Is there anything she did that you have reversed?

I put some more pictures to the wall. Besides more pictures on the wall. Anything of significance you have changed? Well, not yet, I would say. So you're holding out the possibility. He's the much nicer guy. I might not even know what she has done, because I'm not 100% informed about everything that was already brought on the way. But sometimes I'm told by colleagues, oh, maybe your wife would have done that differently.

But that's okay, because we are different characters. And Berlin didn't send one ambassador, but two two ambassadors and they're surprised everybody has to pay. Okay, let's talk about some of the issues that are happening in the world right now that both your country and ours are facing and we will start with the most obvious one and that is the President of the United States today. We're in a trade war with him, we're in a tariff war with him, he wants to annex our country. These are usually not the ways to make friends and influence people, but this is President

Trump. How are you, I'll start with the current ambassador then, how are you Germans getting along with President Trump these days? Well, to begin with, the US are our most important trade partner, and I think that tells you a lot about how we look at our relationship. We are deeply grateful for everything the US have done ever since the Second World War and before and therefore we feel this close relationship to the US as a nation. I'm not going to go too much into detail what we think about the current president's decisions

regarding tariffs or regarding Canada and the announcements that he makes. And this of course I think it's enough to say that, and our Chancellor also said the same, borders cannot be moved forcibly. We are very much on the side of Canada. As our Foreign Minister I said we have your back when it comes to diversifying your trade relations, your political relations. But of course we are following with great concern also discussion about security in Europe and for Europe because we are under the umbrella of the United States of America and we in any way want like to keep that relationship going. So I'm sure that also a new German government will invest a

lot into a good relationship to the United States of America. When, when did you give up being ambassador? When did you stop? In early April. Early April. Oh, so just very recently. Okay.

So when Trump became president, you were on the job. I was on the job. And what did you think about that when he became the president and started talking about tariffs and talking about NATO and he's not such a fan of NATO? What did you think about that when he became the president and started talking about tariffs and talking about NATO and he's not such a fan of NATO? What did you think? I think we knew what a Trump presidency would mean. We've seen his first term. We knew what the president stands for and he's been always very public and clear about

what he stands for. So on the tariff piece, the German government has been very clear that we want free trade and we want to trade more with the United States, not less. And we believe in a trade war, everybody will lose and American customers will lose and the American people will lose, which is why we have, and from the European Union side, have offered to get rid of tariffs instead of establishing new ones. But the EU has also been very clear and it's the EU for Germany that is in the lead in these negotiations that if terrorists continue, there will be a reaction.

You have heard Donald Trump talk about the fact that he thinks your country and mine are a bunch of freeloaders when it comes to military spending in NATO. And never mind 2%, he wants it up around 5%. Is that something Germany is prepared to do? I think at least we have a serious discussion about stepping ahead and maybe moving the target from 2% to somewhere else. If that's then 3% or something around 3%, of course we'll be in the hands of a new government to decide.

But I think everybody in Germany understands that there's a need to look at these numbers again. Are they still sufficient to really guarantee that Germany will be a safe and secure country in the future, given Russia's war of aggression which is now going on for more than three years against Ukraine. So therefore I think this discussion is ongoing and if you look at the new coalition agreement you will see that there's a lot of readiness amongst the new coalition partners to also take this direction. Do you think Germany needs to spend more than 2% of its gross domestic product on military? Yes.

How much more? The coalition agreement of our government doesn't have a figure. But I think the discussion in Germany, given the clear threat level we face, is more around 3 to 3.5% than around 2%. We are at 2.1% at the moment. But nobody's under any illusions that Vladimir Putin has imperial ambitions beyond Ukraine and in Europe, and that's much more concrete than here in Canada, we really are in a race against time, upping our defences in order to prevent a big war from happening.

And the German, our chief of defence, is saying publicly he wants the German armed forces to be war-ready by 2029, which is not something you hear here in Canada. Well I was going to say, I mean for the last 80 years Germany has taken militarily at least a bit of a restraining role in Europe and has tried not to spend too much on military and not to be too chest thumpy for obvious reasons. Do you think it's time to change that approach, Ambassador? I think we have changed it already. I just saw the numbers this morning on who are the major spenders on defense around the globe.

And of course nobody reaches the US and Russia is unfortunately also spending a lot of money, but Germany has done a great step forward. We are now spending, I think, the third biggest spender on military around the globe these days. It has to do of course with the security perception that we have in Germany but also with our engagement for Ukraine's security and defense and therefore this is remarkable. I also saw figures that 22 out of the NATO members have now reached the 2 percent but there are still some who haven't and I think it's an encouragement to everybody to see if it's possible to reach at least these 2% at this point of time.

Are you also disappointed with Canada that we are not at 2%? Trump is very disappointed. Are you? We're never disappointed as Canada. Oh, what a diplomatic answer that is. No, but I mean, seriously, I think the threat is there. This is not about fulfilling some number on some NATO decision or fulfilling the demands of an American president. We do this for ourselves and for our security because there is a clear threat and this threat

you cannot wish it away. It's there. And this is why we're doing it. And we take that very, very seriously in Europe and in Germany. In which case should Germany reacquire nuclear weapons? The question of nuclear weapons is one which we already have solved in a way that we are partaking in the nuclear programmes of other partners in the framework of NATO. This discussion about re-arming or about having our own nuclear capabilities is one which is maybe starting but it's not a serious discussion at this point. We still rely very much on our alliances, on NATO in this regard and on the US.

But of course there's a discussion, should Europe be in a position to have its own nuclear capabilities or not? I don't think this is something that is part of the coalition agreement or anything that is around soon. But the question, how can we strengthen the European pillar of NATO? Is there any room for autonomy or sovereignty, European sovereignty in terms of nuclear facilities or capabilities? I think that's a question for the future which remains to be seen. Just for fun I'm going to ask you the same question to see if you agree. What do you think? Nuclear weapons for Germany? As long as NATO exists and is strong,

the current arrangement has served everybody well. And at the moment we are forbidden, you know, the nuclear non-proliferation treaty prevents us from a nuclear armament. You know, should the security situation change dramatically in a way that these alliances break down, then I think many countries in Europe will ask themselves what the consequences are of this. And ultimately there is a nuclear question at the end of that. A lot of countries around the world, given the way America is today, are asking themselves whether they need to form new relationships,

deeper relationships with other countries in order to isolate the United States because they are not the reliable partner they once were. Talk to us about Canada and Germany. Should we be establishing some kind of new thing or participating in some kind of new thing because America isn't the America we once knew? I think we do have a multilateral framework which we need to preserve in the first place.

This is true for the United Nations, for NATO, for the OSCE, where Germany and Canada are partners already. But in addition to that, and I share your impression that there's a lot of interest in diversifying, for example, the trade relationships that Canada has with other countries. And we in Germany are more than ready to look into these trade relations and investments, but also in the security cooperation.

There's a lot of things that we can still do in science corporations. If ever there's a need, we already have something that we can build on so we don't start from scratch for sure. But looking at our relationship in terms of energy or raw materials leaves a lot of space and potential for the future as well. I'm not saying that to redirect trade routes from the US and elsewhere, but I think Europe as a whole and Germany in particular has a lot of interesting things to offer as well. You know, I heard an interesting idea the other day, which is that some people think

Canada should join the European Union. What would you think about that? I'm afraid at the moment the European treaties prevent that because they clearly state you have to be a European country in order to join the European Union. Changing these treaties is a very difficult endeavor, as we have seen in the past. But there are also interesting models, if I may add. The Norway-EU relationship could be looked at more closely. If we want, we find ways.

There are already things that we are discussing with our Canadian partners, as the EU, in terms of security cooperation, for example. And these are things that we should be exploring further, and I think there's a lot of things below the level of full membership. What would you like to see happen with the German-Canadian relationship in light of the fact that America is not the country it once was? Independent of America, I would like to see much closer military cooperation, especially in the maritime domain.

I think there is a lot we need to do around raw materials. We need to diversify. Canada has a lot to offer. The problem is to get the stuff out of the ground. And then I would love to see more people-to-people relations. In Germany, we have a lot of city twinnings or sort of provincial-to-provincial relationships. I think there's still a lot we can do. We did some of that 40 years ago, I remember.

Yeah. And then we sort of stopped. Yeah. I think that to carry that relationship into the future and for young people to grow up with it and create these bonds, I think that would be something which would be very helpful. As we're here in Toronto, I think Toronto's friendship with Frankfurt or also Ontario's friendship with Baden-Württemberg are very good examples on how this could work. I was in the Frankfurt airport a couple of months ago.

I went over to meet my newest grandchild who lives in Switzerland. And I got off the plane and the first thing I saw in the Frankfurt airport was a big advertisement for the province of Ontario in the Frankfurt airport. And I seem to remember, I think 40 years ago, is it Baden-Württemberg? Is that the name of the state? And Ontario had some kind of twinning relationship. But we got away from that. Do we need to get back to that?

I think it would be a good idea to get back to that. I think it should exist. Maybe it's always good to inflate some new life and start working on that. And I think Canada and Baden-Württemberg are very close. Think of LAR as one of the examples where so many servicemen of the Canadian Armed Forces have served. So there's a lot of connections. The Canada-Germany Hydrogen Alliance. And the LAR is one of the examples where so many servicemen of the Canadian Armed Forces have served.

So there's a lot of connections. The Canada-Germany Hydrogen Alliance. What is that? The Hydrogen Alliance is born out of the feeling that we want to have more hydrogen in Europe because we are trying to get away from fossil energy sources, especially from Russia. And at the same time, Canada is a country of vast opportunities when it comes to renewable energies, but also to hydrogen in all its forms. And if you look at the latest coalition agreement,

you will see that we are still very much looking into possible ways to continue in hydrogen and bring more hydrogen from other countries to Germany in particular. And therefore, this will be very high on our agenda. We have signed this alliance in 2022 and in 2024 we have already opened an H2 Global window which means that we are actually funding every sort of transaction between Canada and Germany with 300 million Canadian dollars from each side, from Canada's side, from Germany's side. I think this will be something for the future which will have great opportunities.

We are aware that first of all the production of hydrogen would have to speed up a little but also the transportation of the hydrogen. But if you look at the Atlantic provinces, for example, Nova Scotia, Newfoundland in particular, you see that even green hydrogen, so one which is produced with wind energy, for example, can be produced and then it just needs to be shipped to Germany or elsewhere and we'd be very happy customers of Canadian green hydrogen. Interesting. I want to ask you one more serious question and then one more not so serious question.

So here's the serious one. Please complete this sentence. My time as Germany's ambassador to Canada will be successful if... what? If we manage to deepen these very strong relations even further and build new areas of cooperation. Other ambassador, how would you answer that? and build new areas of cooperation. Other ambassador, how would you answer that? If we manage to deepen your ready... No, actually, if we manage to bring Germany and Canada closer together, especially in these difficult times that we use or seize these opportunities,

which are now opening up with new governments, with the world as it is, but also in managing the ongoing wars and conflicts in the world where I see a very strong role for both our countries in the framework of G7 but also individually. Okay, and now my last not so serious question. Given the time we are in right now, namely the Stanley Cup playoffs, who is the greatest hockey player ever to come out of Germany? For me it's Leon Dreisigl, but he's not a top scorer of the NHL preseason, but of course this is

my opinion. And we like Tim Stützle as well. We like Tim. Okay that's, I'm sorry, but that's a problem. That triggers. That's a problem. Stutzle plays for the Ottawa Senators, and while I have to be neutral in all things, I'm not neutral in hockey. We noticed. Yeah, so that's a problem. All right, Dreisaitl is the correct answer, essentially. He is the greatest ever.

Can I also, just before we leave, thank you for this beautiful German chocolate that you have given to us here at TVO, and it has a little slogan on it that I've, I think I've heard this before. Should I show it to this camera, Sheldon? What it says on there, what does it say? Canada is not for sale. Yes, that is a beautiful saying. And I look forward to devouring this chocolate with all of my friends here at TVO. So, danke schön.

Das war aus ausgezeichnet. Dankeschön. Vielen herzlichen Dank. Und good luck for your future. Good luck to the Leafs.