The Agenda with Steve Paikin (Audio) - Is It Possible to Railroad a Guilty Man?

Episode Date: June 12, 2024

It was truly one of the greatest moments in Canadian history. Ben Johnson sprinted his way into the record books with an astonishing 9.79-second 100-metre dash at the 1988 Olympics in Seoul, South Korea. But his gold medal memories didn't last. Johnson tested positive for banned steroid use and lost his gold. Journalist Mary Ormsby takes us back to those emotional days but follows up with some probing questions about what else was going on with the other runners in that race. She chronicles it all in her book, "The Incredible Life of Ben Johnson: World's Fastest Man*" Steve Paikin talks to both the athlete and the author.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Ben Johnson sprinted his way into both our hearts and the record books with an astonishing 9.79 second 100 meter dash at the 1988 Olympics in Seoul, South Korea. But his gold medal memories didn't last. Johnson tested positive for banned steroid use and lost his gold. Johnson tested positive for banned steroid use and lost his gold. Journalist Mary Ormsby takes us back to those emotional days, but follows up with some probing questions about what else was going on with the other runners in that race. She chronicles it all in World's Fastest Man, The Incredible Life of Ben Johnson. And it brings Mary Ormsby and Ben Johnson to our studio tonight.

First of all, it's great to have you here, because you and I don't know each other at all. But you and I know each other very well, and it's delightful to have you back here in the studio again. Thank you for the invitation. It's a pleasure. It's a pleasure. Mary, if you look at the title of the book, Sheldon, can we show the big screen here?

Yeah. There's an asterisk after World's Fastest Man. Why is that? That's because there's a story behind the story. So it's a bit like the asterisk they put after Roger Maris' 61 home runs when he broke Babe Ruth's record. All those things. You want to read a little bit more about what's this all about? The asterisk is part of the story.

Okay. I suspect you remember what happened on that day. Not really. Well, I want to take a look at it again anyway, because it was a pretty amazing moment. Sheldon, roll it if you would. And it's a fair start. And it is Raymond Thur with a start. And it's Ben Johnson with a start.

Can Carr catch him? No. It's Ben Johnson. Ben Johnson does it again. Unbelievable. I still get goosebumps looking at that. Do you? I didn't know it was that fast. Ben, when the number came up, 9.79, could you believe it? Yes, I believe it because I was turning this kind of time in practice when I was training with Charlie back in the days. Charlie Francis, your coach. Yeah.

Was that then the happiest moment of your life? Yeah, I believe that from all the years of training and sacrifice, you know, the time and the dedication and to give something back to my mother. I think that was the more saddest moment in my life, yeah. I have a few other bizarre questions here, starting with, why did you wear, I mean, you're wearing a big chain around your neck, which I would assume would distract or slow you down. Was it not a problem? Well, it was quite heavy when I first bought it in Italy. And when I was training sometimes with it, it would knock on my bones right here and it hurts a little bit.

But after a couple of weeks, I started training with it. It feels okay. You got used to it. Okay. Carl Lewis came over to you, the American sprinter who was your big challenger. He came over to you to shake your hand before the race started. And according to the book, you said to him, get away from me. This is my time, not yours. Why did you say that? Because I think that was the right thing to do, because I know there's a lot of jealousy of him and other athletes and other people around surrounding that moment, was jealous of my accomplishment. If I'm going to win the Olympic Games again in 1988, what I did in Rome in 1987. So it was just a shocking moment.

So I was not there for a best friend to shake hands. I'm just here to win the gold medal. You were there to do some business. Okay, well, Sheldon, bring the picture up. This is on the podium afterwards, getting the medals. You guys did have a handshake there. Did you exchange any nice words there? No, I was just looking at his face,

and he looked very upset. Yeah. Yeah. Sheldon, if you would, let's bring up the next picture as well, because again, Ben, this is another question I've always wanted to ask you. You probably cost yourself a tenth of a second by putting your arm up in the air as if to say, I'm number one. Why did you do that? I think that I will have another chance to run from zero to 100 meters and lower the record, but I didn't have that chance. But I think that when I look on the scoreboard, at my view, I'm almost like 11 o'clock.

The clock's at nine seconds flat. And I shut it down and said, no one can be this close at nine seconds. It's impossible. Someone to be there. So I was confidently just turn around and wave my hands in the air. Okay. Mary, take us back now.

You write that Ben almost didn't participate in this race in Seoul because he was, quote, injured, tired, and unhappy. What was going on? Well, Ben had a lot going on in his life at that point, and he had been world champion for just a couple of months. He won that, he referenced that in 87 in Rome. He won the world championship and world record time. And there were new demands on his time, his energy with media appearances and sponsors and all this. So he left to go to St. Kitts.

He and Charlie, Charlie Francis' coach, had a little bit of a misunderstanding. And Ben just seemed to want to go away and recharge and rethink everything and went to St. Kitts and tried to relax on a beach. But he also had a hamstring injury that he was worried about. So there was a lot of kind of negative stuff going on at this moment, just in advance of the greatest moment of his life. That's right. And part of that was the world's sports media and fans were watching this. They say, well, Ben's gone AWOL. What's going on? And all his competitors are training and competing. And they think Ben's just lying on a beach drinking beer and playing dominoes like you know he's not gonna be there in Seoul but during this time and he could

probably address this a little better but he decided that you know my focus is now back on Seoul and I'm gonna get there but it took about six weeks I believe how did you get focused again well I believe that Charlie and I go way, way, way back since I was a young kid and going through this journey to become the fastest man in the world or to win the Olympic Games. So as I said, we come a long way and come this far and to crit. And I just come to the track one day and said, Charlie, okay, let's get the job done.

We come this far and he was quite happy that I came back. Me too. And he said, okay, warmed up. We're going to run some 200 meters for endurance work. And I won the first. I go on the set position and I take off and I run in 20 seconds flat. I came back 20 seconds later and won 19.5 for the 200 meters. And it goes, I'm ready. You're back on track at that point.

Mary, Ben had passed all of the drug tests leading up to the games, but he didn't obviously pass the drug test at the games. Why not? The book raises a lot of questions and we answer a lot of them. And that particular one is where I disappoint people because I can't answer it the way I would like to with evidence. Ben has a theory, but why did Ben not pass that test is something I'll be flummoxed to the end of my life. What I can say about that test in Seoul was that the amount of the metabolites in Ben's urine was very high.

And a metabolite is a chemical breakdown of the anabolic steroid that goes through your body. And that's what's measured in the urine sample. If Ben had been, you know, sort of tapering off these steroids, that amount should have been very, very low. And the credible experts to have said it was actually quite high. That's never been explained. And that's something to me that was always a red flashing light

about why this amount and why was Ben the only track and field athlete at the Seoul Games to test positive. And he was. He was the only one. Ben, there were eight men in that race. How many were on the juice? I believe that most of them, yes. Maybe six of the eight. Maybe six of the eight, yeah.

Were on the juice, and you were the only one who tested positive. Correct, yeah. What's your theory as to why that was? Because jealousy, too much money was at stake for my rival and other people. But my mom's always said to me, even before it even happened, she said to me that the only way they can beat me is in the testing room.

And I remember she saying that, and then I started to get scared of my life, that that can be taken away from me by somebody might just do a sabotage or poison me or something like that. And it did happen. You think somebody spiked your water bottle? You think so? Yes. Yes. Do you have proof of that? I don't have proof, but I felt it. But I didn't know what it was until I tested positive.

Mary, what do we know about the possibility or the potential for that kind of malfeasance happening in what we would assume is a very secure set of circumstances? Well, in the past, there have been all kinds of talk and gossip. And probably, I'm talking about 88 now, so the past means, you know, the Wild West time of using steroids back then. West time of using steroids back then. There was some subterfuge in labs and people would go in and possibly remove a B sample, which would be part of the entire samples. If there was no B sample to test against the A sample, then the test was going to be negative. Money could have changed hands in general. I'm not talking about soul in particular, but there were ways that security could have been breached or people would just get in there and, you know, manhandle things or drop a bottle with a sample in it when the athlete was there to have it, you know, tested before them if it had a red flag on an A sample. So that sort of skullduggery could happen.

Ben thinks that he was sabotaged in the doping control room. There was a mystery man, an American friend of Carl Lewis's. You know, that theory was debunked at our Dubbin inquiry. We had a royal commission to look into these circumstances. Charlie Dubbin, a court of appeal judge, was presiding. Right, and that group thoroughly debunked that. But, you know, that would really take sort of an Ocean's Eleven kind of caper to maybe pull that off in doping control in Seoul.

But, you know, I leave it right there. I don't know what happened, but Ben just certainly has his feelings about it. And we have spoken to the mystery man, the guy's name is Andre Jackson, who just said, you know, I didn't do it. He denies anything. Pretty much, yeah. Ben, I want to take you back to the day after the race. Caroline Letheren, who's running the Canadian Olympic delegation, comes up to you and says, Ben, this is a hard thing I have to say, but I need your medal back because you'd tested positive.

At that moment, did you think about saying to her, forget it. I want it. It's mine. I'm keeping it. Did you think about that? I was thinking about it, but I just said, I just reached in my bag and gave it back to her. And she said, I'm sorry, Ben, but this is what I have to do. I know you did give it back to her. But did you think for a little while about maybe just hanging on to it and saying, forget it? No. a little while about maybe just hanging on to it and saying forget it no well you know my mom is a

spiritual person and she saw things that nobody didn't even saw all these years and she told me that uh go with god and uh and um things will be tough but uh everything that what they take taken away from you you'll get it all back. But like she said, and what's happening now, they don't take anything from me. They just slow me down. They just slow me down. But, you know, if God say, this is for me, this is for me,

that's the way it's going to be. Nobody can come and say, claim this thing in here. And the gold medal that Carlos has is not his gold medal. They don't give him a replacement. But my gold medal is still with the IWF. All the work, all ethics. This was a moment. I mean, Ben is in trouble at this moment.

And he needs an advocate at this moment. Right. Who was there in his corner advocating for him at that moment? Well, in Seoul, once he got the information that your A sample tested positive and, you know, you need to have a hearing. This all happens very fast. There were a set of Canadian officials there in Seoul who were totally gobsmacked and panicked about everything and felt they needed a lawyer. As did Charlie Francis. and felt they needed a lawyer, as did Charlie Francis.

And the most experienced lawyer in the city was Richard Pound, from Montreal, a well-respected lawyer and an IOC vice president at the time, a very powerful young guy coming up through the system. So the Canadian contingent was there to try to mount a defence for Ben, because at that hearing, that was his last chance to plead his case that there was something wrong with the drug test and I should retain my medal. But the book really focuses on that hearing,

where over the course of time and through investigation and kind of looking at it as a bit of a cold case, I think I make the argument that Ben was deprived or denied of due process from a lot of the parties in that moment. Let me go back to before the games. Carl Lewis, his prime challenger, flunked three doping tests before Seoul, and U.S. officials apparently turned a blind eye. How was he able to skate through all of that, and Ben wasn't? Well, how was he able to skate through all of that and Ben wasn't well Carl Lewis was able to plead his case that it was inadvertent and it was a stimulant infraction it wasn't steroids so with stimulants you're allowed to have a

certain amount in your urine steroids you're not allowed to have any that's an automatic positive so he quietly had that looked after and nobody said a word for 15 years until a whistleblower let the world know about it around 2003, 2004. But it's a powerful Olympic set of officials down in the United States and they were about three months out from Seoul so there was you know a lot of reason to you know, overturn his tests. When you think about those American Olympic officials who turned a blind eye to Carl's positive tests, what goes through your mind now? Corruption.

That's the only way I can say it. I mean, America protected athletes, and, you know, Congress gave the old you know they go ahead to race against me in seoul because he's the only one can able to come close to beating me so there's nobody else but and the americans always want to be the best in the world or best in 100 meters and if someone else someone else beaten them from outside of amer, then it's a problem. And then I was at the wrong place at the wrong time. Mary, in the aftermath of the Olympics, Ben had a lot of people giving him advice

as to what he should do. And the initial strategy, I gather, was to sort of play dumb, to claim no knowledge of having taken steroids, that whatever was being given to him, he was unaware of what it in fact was. In hindsight, what do you think of that strategy? In hindsight, that was a regrettable strategy.

Ben, you know, he relied on people to guide him. He was a grown man, of course, but when he came back from Seoul, he was just split from everybody who was close to him. Charlie Francis, Dr. Jamie Astrofan, his teammates. Because part of the frantic time was, oh, my God, Ben's been caught. And this conspiracy of silence meant we're all going to go down with him. So everybody kind of lawyered up very quickly. And Ben was quite alone from my viewpoint.

So he, you know, he has to move on to some other people. And it's a different sort of entourage. And that advice, I guess, was what he told them too. I mean, he could answer it himself. But it would have been a lot easier to tear the band-aid off quickly and say, I was injured, I had to do something to compete in the Olympics and win gold for Canada. I'm sorry, can you forgive me? That may have, you know, eliminated the need for the Dublin inquiry.

It may not have happened at all if Ben just said, you know what, let's just do this. Do you wish you had done that in hindsight? Well, it never happened before, but I'm just saying. Win the gold medal or be in injury and take what I take to recovery, but not only that, I think with the weather and the ocean and as a young man, the body also regenerates the blood flow and stuff like that. the body also regenerate the blood flow and stuff like that.

But like Mary said, I didn't want to send kids to take any performing jobs or anything. I just went there just to relax. Because since I came from Jamaica to Canada, I went straight into track and field. I didn't have any time to play with the kids in the park. I had time for myself. It was just straight training. Had to grow up pretty quickly. Yeah.

You know, the other thing I wanted to ask you about, Jamie Astafan, I gather, right, the guy who's injecting you, before the race, at some point before the race, did I read this right? He comes up to you and he says, I want a million bucks to keep quiet about all this? He said to me that he's going to expose everything. And I said, well, if you want money, I got money in my account. I give it to you after the race, but I guess it never happened. Mary, do we call this extortion or what

do you want to call it? That's extortion is probably the correct word. Huh. And the idea was you pay me for my silence or else I'm going to tell the world that I've been injecting you with steroids. Well, that would be part of it. But I think at that point they were Jamie and others were trying to, you know, manipulate themselves to be part of Ben's entourage after the fact as well. So the money would be coming in for everybody. So that's the ugly thing about this particular story, because Ben was making millions of dollars and was going to make tens of millions more and that was going to float a lot of boats and it was getting obviously very very ugly and very close to that race in Seoul. So tell tell us how it was ultimately

decided that Ben would change his strategy he would not pretend that he didn't know what was going on in fact he would go before the Dublin inquiry and acknowledge that he didn't know what was going on. In fact, he would go before the Dublin Inquiry and acknowledge that he knowingly took anabolic steroids. It was strategy that the Dublin Inquiry staff, led by Robert Armstrong as the lead counsel, they were... Actually, it's quite stunning. The first big witnesses out of the gate, Charlie Francis, and then Angela Isagenko, who was one of Ben's teammates. Who kept a diary and basically out of the whole thing. So Charlie told all, Angela told all, a lot of people told all who knew what the secrets were.

And Ben was the last of the Mazda Group sprinters to testify. And by that point, it was about maybe eight months after Seoul. And Ben and his lawyers, with probably some, you know, assistance from Bob Armstrong saying, look, you know, like. It's time. It's time. And there's nowhere else to go. So you're just going to have to get up there and tell the truth. But Ben, you say in the book that you think the inquiry was meant to clear Canada's name and punish me.

You still believe that? I believe that until it's there, yes. Why do you say that? I believe that, I mean, Canada never was ready for my accomplishment. I mean, Canada never was ready for my accomplishment. And since America was the big boss of the world and Canada was a small country that I test positive at the Olympic Games and then Canada didn't even come to my rescue.

But I think that the Dublin inquiry was a rich one to get me and to show the world this is the only guy who was cheating world this is the only guy was cheating this is the only guy was doing this this is not right and as long as i live i'm not going to take the blame for other athletes doing the same thing and i know that there was a a clear level playing field and this sports called dragon field is very corrupt very dirty and people might see a lot of people in the games running fast or doing their thing. Anybody think that they are clean? No, it's not. They can pick and

choose who they want to take down and who they want because they have other athletes coming up can take that field that gap. But the reality is you're, what, 28 years old now? You have been banned for life. Did you have any idea what you would do with the rest of your life, given those circumstances? Well, I think when I went to the court in 1999 to claim my name, not to say I want to run again, but to claim my name so I can move on with my life, they denied me my rights of earning a living or moving forward in my life so what

they're saying that they're not gonna give my rights back so so they're saying that that at the judge at the time saying that um we're not gonna give your rights back because we are afraid of you go back and taking the drugs when since the government um so concerned about my life so concerned about my life. Okay, here's where the story gets... This is very interesting. So what they're saying is for a black man, we're not going to give you rights back. That's it. You're finished. You're done.

Well, you've introduced the angle of race here. Do you think race was a factor in all of this? Yes. How so? Because if it wasn't so, I would be still running or my life would be fine or my name would be cleared. So white athletes can catch a pass, but the black athletes run into trouble.

Here's where I say yes, but, because Ben did try to, he did, he was allowed to race again. They rescinded the lifetime ban. You were allowed to race again, but you tested positive again, and then you tested positive again. And then you tested positive again. I can answer that. Please.

There's nothing to do with track and field. I have a life outside of track and field. There's other athletes test positive, different colors, and they go ahead, keep their medals, keep the sponsorship, making money. Why me? Why I'm the only one get singled out?

That's not right. That's not fair. So as long as I can live and fight for this, I will fight until the day I die. And that's what I believe. Okay. Can you help us on this? That second test happened in 1993, and Ben tested positive for a testosterone ratio. So it wasn't the anabolic steroid itself.

So there's something wonky in his system, and they didn't't like it but this test came in the middle of two um two clear tests you know uh negative tests in a very short period of time going forward ben is talking about how he you know he he just he bailed out a sport at the time and he was given um bad information accidentally by the track and field association who said you have to appeal this second test. Ben says, I don't have enough money or the wherewithal to do an appeal. I'm done. Well, you fast forward a few years. Ben should have been given a hearing, first of all, and then he went to an arbitrator.

And the track and field people is now, you know, Athletics Canada. And the arbitrator ruled in Ben's favor and not just on a technicality but there were many things uh amiss with that test including you know some you know questions about how lab results were interpreted ben being given the wrong advice at the time he did not have a hearing he should have had a hearing and some other things so ben was provisionally reinstated in 1999 to run again he still had to get the blessing of the international body. But you are correct, in that fall of 1999, he was randomly tested and tested positive for a diuretic,

which is on the anti-doping list. And therefore, no argument about restraint of trade or anything like that was going to hold water anymore because he was done. You've asked, I think at the end of the day, the most interesting question about the Ben Johnson story, which is, is it possible to railroad a guilty man? So I don't think you're writing this book as if to say this guy is completely blameless in everything. I don't think you're writing that. No, not at all. No.

But you are saying there are a lot of unanswered questions about this and a lot of curiosities that seem to have befallen Ben that have not befallen others. But at the end of the day, you are asking an intriguing question. Can you railroad a guilty man? How do you answer it? Well, part of that is in soul. And that's what the focus is on the book was that is in soul. And that's what the focus is on the book, was that hearing in soul. There were a lot of things that happened that shouldn't have happened, the things that should have happened that didn't happen.

Ben had a right to a fair hearing. As an athlete, as an Olympian, as a Canadian, Ben had a right to a fair hearing. That does not mean, if you support someone's right to have a fair hearing, that doesn't mean you endorse their behavior as a rule breaker. hearing. That does not mean, if you support someone's right to have a fair hearing, that doesn't mean you endorse their behavior, you know, as a rule breaker. And, you know, Ben will admit he was a rule breaker. He knew. So those are two separate matters. And that's what I'm saying. You know, why did he, why were, why was he denied a fair hearing? We didn't really ever examine that as Canadians, as a Canadian government, sport officials. Oh, they were fast to throw him under the bus ASAP.

Well, it happened. And because it happened so fast, any further discussion or challenge was suffocated in 88, 89. So it was like a case was closed. So that's what I'm looking at. Is it possible to railroad a guilty man? And I'd say, if you're going to ignore a historic injustice and you purport to be a world-class anti-doping system and you don't investigate, then you are enabling a system that is discriminatory and full of prejudice for some athletes, but not for others. Well, let me follow up on that. Who are you maddest at today? We're a lot of years after the fact. Who are you maddest at today for the way this all rolled out? I watched some stuff on social media over the years and also athletes saying that,

oh, if anybody getting caught taking steroids, they should go to jail. And they're no different than what they're doing or what I did before. No difference. This, you know, because, you know, the IRC and the IWF, they are police, judge, and jury. They can do everything they want. They run the sports. They run everything. They can take you out any time and you got nothing to do with it. They could just say you test positive, you're gone.

And then you have lawsuit, lawsuit with these guys going on even right now because they do the athletes very, very wrong. And we are the slaves of the track and field. We are the guys who make them lots of money for all the athletes when somebody tests positive, they turn back on, they got nothing.

So, and it just move on like nothing ever happened. That's wrong. When's the last time you saw Carl Lewis? Carl Lewis? Since 88. That was the last time?

Yeah. If he was sitting right here, what would you say to him? I would squeeze his hand and squash it. So you do not like him any better today? No, I don't like people that are jealous of me or whatever it is. I don't like jealous people because I'm not jealous. I like people what they are and achieve their goal.

But if it's my time, it's my time. I don't care what you have on your own. Fair is fairness. I believe in fairness. I believe in facts. That's it. Ben, I have one last question for you. And that is, when I went to Mary's book launch, which you were at as well, I went up to you and I asked you to sign my book. And I don't know if you remember what you wrote, but you wrote your name and then you wrote 9.79 underneath your name. Why did you do that? I just make a mistake.

I was trying to write very fast, but the mind wasn't going. Ben, I'm not buying that. I'm sorry. I'm not buying that. No, I always write my name, Ben Johnson, 100 meters, 9.79, and your name. Yeah.

I mean, that 9.79 are the three most controversial numbers in Canadian history. And you're not running away from them. No, I'm not. You put them on the page. I put them on the page. How come? Even my phone number is 979. So I find that very intriguing.

I know what I did. I know what I did. I know what happened. Nobody can take it away from me. As God of my witness, Jesus Christ, that's it. That's all that matters. My conscience is clear. The conscience is not clear. I'm fine.

I can live with that. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is what the asterisk is all about. There we go. World's fastest man. The incredible life of Ben Johnson. and gentlemen, is what the asterisk is all about. There we go. World's Fastest Man, the incredible life of Ben Johnson. And it has brought the one time World's Fastest Man and Mary Armsby to our studio today. Thank you so much for this. Thank you. Thank you very much, Steve. The Agenda with Steve Paikin is made possible through generous philanthropic contributions

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