The Agenda with Steve Paikin (Audio) - Is Karina Gould Ready to Lead the Federal Liberals?

Episode Date: March 7, 2025

The person who replaces Justin Trudeau as Liberal Party leader and thus, prime minister, will have an in-box to sink a ship: from the cost-of-living crisis to our fractured relationship with the United States, to the question of whether the Liberals have a shot to win the next election. Is Karina Gould the one to meet the moment? Karina Gould is the MP for Burlington and hopes to become just the second woman and first millennial to become prime minister. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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first millennial to become prime minister. And we welcome her to our studio. It's great to have you here. Thanks for having me. You've been on this program many times, but first time in the studio. Yeah, I know. So it's about time. Well, let's ask the obvious question off the top. What is your unique offering to liberals that they should

vote for you? Well first of all I'm really proud to be a liberal. I'm not running away from our agenda. I'm proud of the things that we have done and my big difference with the other candidates is my focus is all about people. I'm a grassroots politician and my job as Prime Minister if I'm chosen on Sunday is to make sure that everything I do is focused on Canadians and I've always its politician and my job as Prime Minister if I'm chosen on Sunday is to make sure that everything I do is focused on Canadians and I've always been someone who's been engaged in my community and I'll do the same thing across the country. The conventional wisdom suggests that that well I was

gonna say you but all of you should be running away from some of the Trudeau record because obviously he was very unpopular by the end. Do you not feel the need to do that? Well I think there are points that we should recognize where we didn't do well and where we need to make changes. But I'm not going to run away from things like the Canada child benefit or from child care. I'm not going to run away from being a liberal. Liberals don't win elections by being conservative light.

We win when we're true to our values and we have a clear proposition for Canadians but I will acknowledge that particularly when it comes to as you mentioned in your opening the cost of living crisis I don't think we did enough and I don't think we were listening to Canadians and we heard them and Canadians certainly felt that way and I think they expressed that in their displeasure with our government at the time. So what more would you do? Well I've got some big ideas in terms of how to tackle the cost of living crisis. The first one is that I'm proposing a temporary cut to the GST from five to four percent for one year. This will save Canadians on average 700 to 750 dollars a year and then we'll review that in a year

to see if there's something that we make permanent on a go-forward basis. But this will help particularly lower income and no-income Canadians who spend more of their revenue on essential items and on the GST. I'm also proposing a very ambitious housing plan that would look to end homelessness, build housing on an industrial scale and get first-time buyers into the market and then I'm also proposing to modernize our social safety net in Canada. Our social safety net was designed 80 plus years ago. It's not fit for purpose in 2025. We need a system that is going to meet people where they are in 2025 and be here for the next century. The deficit for the government

of Canada I believe is about 60 billion dollars in the red right now. What would your program do to that? Yeah so all of these measures are things that will help Canadians make ends meet and that will also help with economic growth. I'm also proposing to ensure that we, well I guess it's an ambitious plan to create a million new entrepreneurs in Canada and create business environment where Canadians can not only start businesses but they can grow them and they can thrive in Canada. So I think we need to have more economic growth but I'm not going to look at Canadians and tell them I'm going to balance the budget in three years or eliminate the deficit you know in a very quick period of time because

what that means is cuts and at a time when we are facing this extraordinary economic impact that could be arising because of the tariffs that we're facing from Donald Trump we need to ensure that the government is there for Canadians businesses and industries. Mark Carney has said three years operational balance in three years doable? No I don't think it is and I don't think it is something that we should be telling Canadians that we're going to do unless there's a lot of cuts that are coming. I mean and that's the only way that you would be able to achieve that. He and others have talked about you know we need to grow the economy, we need greater

productivity. I agree with all of that. I don't think we can achieve that in three years to meet the operational deficit that we have right now So let's be clear and transparent with Canadians. I believe in fiscal responsibility. I believe in working towards balance I'm just not going to do that in a way that is going to hurt Canadians. He said three years you obviously disagree What's your time period for balancing the books? I'm not going to put one on right now because again if we are in a position where we have to use the fiscal firepower of the government to provide

income supports to the potentially 1 million Canadians who might lose their jobs as a result of these tariffs or get businesses and industries through this time I have no doubt that as Canada we will come out victorious when it comes to this trade war with the United States but I want to ensure that we have the good jobs for Canadians to go back to when that does happen. So we're in what could be a very significant crisis right now so I'm not going to say to people here's when I'm going to balance the budget when we need to make sure that we are supporting Canadians to get through this.

Okay there seem to be two basically two different kinds of elections there's sort of more of the same and time for a change. The province of Ontario obviously just had a more of the same election. You always hear that federally it's time for a change. And the question is, do you represent, would your leadership of the Liberal Party represent adequate change if that's the mood? What do you think? I do. I mean, that's one of the reasons why I'm running. I represent something different.

I'm not going to run away from the good things that we've done. But what I'm saying to Canadians is that I'm also not too proud to acknowledge where we went wrong. And, you know, my pitch to Liberals and to Canadians is like, let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Let's keep the good things that we've done for Canadians. But my job as prime minister is to listen to Canadians, to understand what they're going through and to make sure that I'm putting forward policies and programs and laws that make a difference for them in their lives. You obviously think you're the best choice for your party.

Do you think Mark Carney is the wrong choice for the party? I think that all four candidates in this liberal leadership race are great candidates and I think whoever we choose will be a good leader for our party. Do I think I'm the best candidate? Absolutely. But at the end of this race we're all going to come together, be team liberal, and make sure that we put forward the best team for Canadians and deliver for Canada. The Liberal Party, as you know, tends to have a business wing and a social justice wing. You seem to be coming from more of the social justice side of things.

Mark Carney clearly comes from more of the business side of things. The business wing of the Liberal Party, it could be argued, has basically been sent into the desert for the last 10 years under Justin Trudeau. Do you think your party needs to rediscover its business roots? I think the Liberal Party does best when we are the big tent party. When we have that balance and that debate and those counterweights from the, you know,

more fiscally conservative side as well as the more socially progressive side. That's what's attracted me to being a Liberal since I was 14 years old, is knowing that we are the party that can have those robust conversations and that's a healthy tension for us as liberals and I think what it has done is that over you know the past century in Canada has enabled us to build a inclusive country that enables for equal opportunity but also enables prosperity and growth and so for me if I'm prime minister it's going to be important for me to make sure that I have that diversity in my cabinet, on my team, because that's what enables us to put the best policies forward for Canadians.

What made you join the Liberals at age 14? Well, that was the age you're allowed to join a political party in Canada. So I was, you know, people wait for like 16 when they can drive. I was waiting to be 14 so I could join a political party. I joined the Liberal Party because what I know and saw as a young person was that Liberals fight for Canada and they fight for Canadians. And for me, that became very clear

when I was watching the results of the Quebec referendum in 1995. And I was young, but I remember sitting on the living room floor with my parents and feeling this deep anxiety for what was going to happen to my country, right? I didn't really understand everything that was going on, but the sense of anxiety was palpable. And when the results came in and it was clear that Canada was going to stay together,

although it was fragile, and Prime Minister Chrétien came on TV. I don't remember what he said, but I remember the feeling of relief and thinking this is a man who fights for Canada. And that was the feeling that stayed with me and it's the reason why I became really interested in politics. It's the reason why I became a liberal and it's the reason why at 14 I was so eager to join the party. Here's the first question I'm going to ask that runs the risk of getting me in big trouble. Okay. Karina, I'm 64. Yeah. You're 38? 37. 37. Are you old enough to be prime minister? Absolutely. Absolutely. You've never had one that young. Yeah, well it's time for change. You know, it's time for the next generation of leadership.

But I have a decade of experience in the House of Commons. I know how to get big things done and I know how to work with others. And, you know, age is a number, but more than anything I have the energy and I have the passion and I have the drive to work for Canadians. It's... okay, a gentle follow-up here. Krista Freeland's 57, Mark Carney's going to be 60 next week or so, Frank Bayless is 62. It is not unreasonable for people to ask whether somebody who is in her 30s is running for next time, not this time.

John Turner had to answer those questions in 1968 when he was the same age as you running for the Liberal leadership, and they all said, John's running for next time. Are you running for next time? I'm running for right now because now is the time that I know Canada needs strong leadership and they need somebody with the political experience to meet the moment that we are in. Look success in business is very different from success in politics and I got elected when I was 28 years old. I've been a cabinet minister for almost eight years. I have more political experience than many people

who have when they become prime minister. But I'm also the youngest woman in Canadian history to have been appointed to cabinet. So am I running for next time? No, I'm running for now. And I heard the same thing in 2015 when I ran in Burlington that people said, oh, it's really nice that you're running, but we're actually we're looking for like an older business

type guy. And maybe this is for next time for you. But I won in 2015 and I'm looking forward to winning this time as well. I watched both of the debates that your party put on, the one in French and the one in English. And I have to say they were pretty tame affairs. Whoever wins this thing, the question that I want to ask is, whoever wins this thing, I wonder whether or not they have been battle tested and put through their paces adequately because the debates were such tame affairs.

Are you concerned about that? Yeah, I mean, I certainly tried to... You were a bit sparky, but you didn't go for the jugular. No because it's in the family right? I mean I could have gone for the jugular but that doesn't serve the purposes of the Liberal Party of Canada and you know for me I often say this leadership races it's kind of like a I don't know like child's play in comparison to what the general election would be because you're talking in the family, you're talking to people who generally support your ideas,

who are very positive towards you. The leadership debates, as you said, they were respectful. And I think they show how we can have a conversation and differentiate ourselves. I tried to show how my ideas are different than the other candidates. But that is nothing in comparison to whatever, whoever the liberal leader will be and will face in a general election.

You know, Pierre Pauliev, Jagmeet Singh, Yves-Francois Blanchette, these are all battle-tested, talented politicians. I might not agree with everything they say, but they have experience and they're not going to be as kind you know if someone makes a gaffe they're not gonna you know help them to get to the right find the right words they're gonna attack. Because that's what happened in the French debate. That's what happened in the French debate.

Christa Freeland helped Mark Carney find the right words on the issue of Hamas. Exactly and if that were to happen in a general debate in the election, you know, that's not what the response will be at all. They're gonna absolutely go on the attack. So look, I mean, it's a good test, but you know, there's a lot in politics, you know, when people say, well, I'm not a politician, okay, that's fine. But there is a particular craft to being a politician. And I have the experience, I debate these guys every single day in the House of Commons. I know what to expect for them and I know how to go against them. And I think that's actually one of my strongest points in this liberal leadership race is

that we need somebody who is ready to go to an election, ready to lead the party, and ready to win. I'm going to ask you another one of these sort of historical analogy questions. That is, I remember well in the 1984 Liberal leadership race, John Turner had come out of the private sector where he'd been for 10 years, and it really ticked off John Chrétien, who had stuck it out through all the tough years of Pierre Trudeau.

And liberals all wanted the shiny new bauble, right? And in a way, you know, history repeats itself here. Mark Carney's getting a lot of attention, even though he's never run for office before, he hasn't been there in the trenches with you guys over the last 10 years, and yet everybody seems prepared to hand him this thing. How much does that take you off?

Oh, you know, I mean, I am a student of history as well, and I always think it's important to learn the lessons of history. But we'll say that, you know, at the end of the day of history as well and I always think it's important to learn the lessons of history But we'll say that you know at the end of the day Now is that your way of saying Turner turned out to be a bust and maybe the party shouldn't do that this time? No, no, I'll say Liberal members will make the decision that's right for us in the moment But what I can say is that look I am really glad that we have four excellent people who've put their names forward And I think whoever becomes the leader will need to have all of us on that team so that we can deliver for Canadians.

I think it's great that Mark Carney has put his name forward. He brings, you know, really important experience in the economy and in finance. And if I become Prime Minister, he will absolutely be a part of my team. If you become Prime Minister, how long will you wait before you give the Canadian people a chance to judge your mandate? Well definitely not longer than October but what I can say is that if I become prime minister I'm going to make the decision that is best for Canadians in the moment. We are currently facing this aggressive trade action by the United States right now. I'm not sure that the energy of Canada should be focused on an election while we need to

be defending our country. But as we see with Donald Trump, things change hour to hour, day to day. So again, it really depends, I think, on where we are in the moment. And one of the first things that I would do as prime minister is meet with opposition leaders and take the temperature of what we need to do collectively as a country to defend ourselves. OK.

In our last minute here, this is another not particularly helpful question, but here we go. You know, Jean Chrétien, who was your hero back in the day, had about a decade as prime minister. And then Stephen Harper came in after Paul Martin, and he had almost a decade. And then Justin Trude in after Paul Martin and he had almost a decade and then Justin Trudeau came in and he had almost a decade. And you know it looks like Canadians like to give liberals and then conservatives and then liberals and then conservatives have a shot at it. So

the question is what would be so bad if the conservatives had their shot at it now that you've been in for the last 10 years? Well I think if it was more of the traditional Conservative Party it might not be so bad. But Pierre Polyev and this iteration of the Conservative Party of Canada are not that. I mean, they are pretty extreme right wing. Pierre Polyev, his idol is Elon Musk, and he's trying to emulate Donald Trump.

And I think what Canadians are seeing. He would certainly disagree with that. I mean, he's been very anti-Trump in the last couple of weeks. Oh, in the last couple of days, for sure. But before that, it's like you have whiplash with him, because he was so anti-Trump in the last couple of weeks. Oh, in the last couple of days, for sure. But before that, you know, it's like you have whiplash with him, because he was so pro-Trump and all the things that they were doing in the United States. And now all of a sudden, he's found this newfound love for Canada

that he didn't have just a couple of weeks ago. You can't accuse him of having a newfound love for Canada. He loves Canada. Come on. Yeah, sure. But he has a very different vision of what Canada should be. And it is much more akin to what we're seeing of this brand of the Republican party in the United States than it is to the traditional brand of the conservatives in Canada.

And I think when Canadians are looking at a leader in the upcoming election over the coming months, they're going to say, who do we want to lead us and to defend us against Donald Trump? Do we want a leader and a party that has consistently been there and fought for Canadians, or do we want someone who's a timid Trump and trying to do exactly what Trump is doing south of the border?

That's Karina Gould. She is a candidate for the Liberal leadership of the Federal Party and is the MP for Burlington, and we are grateful you spared some time from the hustings to come in and speak to us here tonight. Thanks for having me. Thank you.