The Agenda with Steve Paikin (Audio) - Is Ontario Flunking Civics?

Episode Date: January 25, 2025

Civics education is mandatory for Ontario students. But from teacher shortages to our contentious political times, do the in-class offerings make the grade? Steve Paikin talks to civics educators to find out about the gaps, and possible solutions, to improve civics instruction in Ontario schools.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

I'm Matt Nethersole. And I'm Tiff Lam. From TVO Podcasts, this is Queries. This season, we're asking, when it comes to defending your beliefs, how far is too far? We follow one story from the boardroom to the courtroom. And seek to understand what happens when beliefs collide. Where does freedom of religion end and freedom from discrimination begin? That's this season on Queries in Good Faith,

a TVO original podcast. Follow and listen wherever you get your podcasts. In order to graduate high school in Ontario, every student must pass the grade 10 civics course. That's been true for about a quarter of a century, but not without some bumps in the road, including uncertainty about its continuation and substantial curriculum revisions.

With us now on how well we're weathering those and other challenges in the province, let's welcome Ken Boyd. He is Director of Education at Civics Canada. Nathan Tidridge, a high school civics teacher in the Waterdown neighborhood of Hamilton and author of several books, including Canada's Constitutional Monarchy, An Introduction to Our Form of Government

and Rachel Coleshaugh, Pedagogical Advisor in Civic Education at Elections Canada and a former Ontario High School History and Civics teacher herself. Great to have you three here with us at TVO tonight for what is a timely and important discussion given how many elections we're likely to have this year. So let's start.

Make the case as to why we need to know our civics. Well, Steve, it's because it's so fundamental to our democracy that a democracy only works when citizens understand how it works and that they know how they can engage in the process. And so civic education is a fundamental part of that. Nathan, make the process. And so civic education is a fundamental part of that. Nathan, make the case. We live in a very diverse, complex society. And we need to understand how that society,

the democracy that we've built up here together, so we can better create the country that we want to have. Ken. Civics is really about learning how to live together. When we think about learning about civics, we often think about learning about things like systems of governments. And these are all very important things.

But it is really just fundamentally just about how we can live together and work together to create the democracy that we live in. I know we have mandatory civics education in our elementary and high schools right now. Is it adequate? I don't think so. I think that there needs to be a lot more emphasis on engaging in democracy well beyond the scope of the civics course in grade 10

or the civics curriculum in grade 5 in Ontario. I think that there's a lot of there's a lot of fundamental concepts and fundamental conversations that we all should be having throughout the school years and that every teacher needs to have more understanding but that there should also be more specialization. There's only so many hours in the day so you want to teach less math, you want to teach less English, you want to teach less art, you want to teach less shop, less gym. What do you want to teach less math, you want to teach less English, you want to teach less art, you want to teach less shop, less gym. What do you want to teach less of so we have more time for civics? I don't think I can answer that question.

Want to give it a shot, Nate? Well, to answer your first question, I'm going to say no. Civics right now is a half credit course taught in grade 10. It needs to be a full credit. We need more time to be having these really, really important conversations. We also need to reverse the trend of civics going online into online learning because that's where the majority of our province's students right now are taking civics. And to me that's a real problem.

What's the problem? Well, how do you have conversations about, for example, treaty relationships, engaging the community, working with community partners? How do you do that in an online platform? Well, you do it on Zoom. Yeah, it's not the same. Just like how we're talking right now in person, it's important to be having these conversations, particularly at such a vulnerable age, in person, in the classroom to be having these conversations, particularly at such a vulnerable age

in person in the classroom. Ken, what do you say? Well, I think the way that you've presented the problem as if we have more civics, we need less of something else. I think that's the wrong way to think about the problem. Civics is something, as we know, is something that is taught as its own separate half course, but it need not just be confined to a half course in the curriculum.

So something that we've heard from talking with teachers from across Ontario and across the country is that overwhelmingly they see civics as a subject that is cross-curricular. So if we want to teach everything that we think students should know about civics, that's not something that needs to be confined to the grade 10 civics class. So it's a part of other classes as well. Give me an example. I mean, there's not a focus on civics if you're doing art or gym or music. Or is there?

There tends not to be, but we have seen a lot of really passionate and interesting teachers who have tried to incorporate civics more in other classes of theirs. So we've seen, for example, science teachers who have looked at issues around single use plastic bands. So they have seen this as not only a policy issue in one way, but it's also a scientific issue. What is the science around this? Why does this policy exist at all? So these kinds of subjects, they're

not completely separate from other kinds of important political and civic issues. And so we can incorporate some of that learning into other kinds of courses. Can we compare and contrast to Rachel? You told us a minute ago that we do it in grade five and grade 10 in the province of Ontario. How does that, where does that put us compared to other provinces?

I was hoping you would ask this question Steve because many other provinces have actually included full year civics courses rather recently. So Nova Scotia came out with one in 2019 in grade nine, that is their entire social studies curriculum is around civic engagement in their social studies class. New Brunswick also came out with one two years ago for their grade 10 social studies. PEI has just adopted one in grade nine. Quebec has actually included a whole series on the culture and citizenship course.

So we're laggards. No, I think we're doing okay in Ontario. I think there's other provinces where civics is not a stand-alone course. But for example, in Alberta, the social studies curriculum is sort of all together in one social studies thematic course in grades nine to 12. And all those courses are mandatory for all students. And so they have multiple opportunities to incorporate civics into their history, geography, law, politics, all of those other courses that they're taking.

When the province wanted to change the curriculum in civics, did you get consulted? Did they bring you in on that at all? No. Well, there's a process. So the Ministry of Education does have a process. And so it's a cyclical process. It doesn't necessarily happen when it should happen. But they do have a way of engaging. And part of that does include engaging with teachers

and stakeholders. So you did offer your opinion when they asked for it? Yes, I did, yes. And was part of one of the writing teams for that, yes. Were you content that what emerged focused on the right things? Yes and no. I'm really happy. I mean, treaty education has now been put into our current curriculum.

Better explain what that is. So what is a treaty? And these kind of foundational relationships between Crown and Indigenous people. Now, what I'd like to see is, what does that mean? And the resources given to teachers to kind of explore that in a better way. So when we're talking about our democracy,

we're kind of talking about these relationships as well. So there's really good things in the curriculum. How teachers are able to access that curriculum and having the proper time to access that curriculum, that's another issue. How old are your students? 14. Are they interested in this?

Yes, they are interested. I mean, when you tell them kind of the story of our democracy, when you talk about treaty, when you talk about issues that affect them in the community face to face, they are engaged. They will go where the teacher kind of wants to take them. So students are very much engaged and looking for ways to access their democracy. I've known this guy for a while and I know he's a damn good teacher. And I know I'd want to take his class if I were 14.

I'm also betting that they're not all like him. And I guess I want to find out from you, Ken, is based on what you know about what's going on out there, how good are the teachers who are supposed to be inculcating our young people in this knowledge? I think the teachers are great. Let me just start off with that. I do think that they are not receiving the kind of support

that they both ask for themselves and that we might want them to have when they are from everyone, pre-service training, in-service training, professional development opportunities, resources to go on field trips, to do things, to have projects in their civics classes, they are not being well-served in that way. You probably love to teach civics, right?

Yes. It's part of your DNA. This is stuff that really jazzes you up. Yeah. Again, I'm willing to bet that most teachers are not like you. And now I don't want you to get in trouble with your colleagues. Right. Well, maybe a little bit.

But would you go so far as to say that a lot of them get voluntold to do it and that it's not a passion for them? Part of the issue with civics being a half credit is that it is not a teachable. And so what I mean by that is you will have people that are teaching the course where they don't have a background in the subject. So it's often given to new teachers or it's given to a teacher that they have so many classes

in the school, but they need to kind of fill out that timetable so that they can be fully in that school. And so the consequence of that is is you'll have so that they can be fully in that school. And so the consequence of that is, is you'll have someone that might not be passionate in civics and they come by it honestly. They want to do a good job, but that's just that's not their training. And so I mean, in many or in some cases, I would say civics is not taught by the history department. It could be under the business department.

You could have you could have any teacher there. And so that could, you get an unequal delivery of the curriculum, I would say. Okay, Rachel, help me understand this. Your election's Canada. So you're a national organization. Education is a provincial responsibility. So, but part of your mandate is to make sure that citizens understand what's going on

in election time and our democracy and all that kind of stuff. So do you have any money in your budget to give to schools to help teachers get up to scratch? What we do is, you know, like I was saying before, we keep an eye on all the provinces and territories and what they're doing in their curriculums. And in every curriculum across Canada, there is a requirement to teach about our electoral process, to teach about our elections, to teach about our democracy in a larger sense. So we look for those connections and we know that teachers, regardless of their

qualification or comfort level, are required by law to teach that curriculum, to teach about our democracy. So what we do is we provide resources to teachers, so like Ken, and we develop the resources and we listen to teachers about what they need and we try to give them what we need. Give me an example, what's a resource you would provide to your teacher? So for example we have a resource called Voting Rights Through Time that is designed for the history classroom and so you have five case studies of different groups throughout her history that did not have the right to vote in federal elections.

And students get a set of cards and an activity mat that looks like a timeline but includes inclusion and exclusion. And they have to work together as a team to figure out and to think about is this historical event, is this inclusion or exclusion, how much? And then they understand and it springboards them to new questions around our democracy and who should be included and who isn't included today. I'm going to take a shot out of the dark here.

I don't know this but I'm going to take a guess. I'm guessing that to run a proper election in Canada, 10 provinces, three territories, five time zones? Sure, yeah. Five and a half? 300 million bucks. Oh, no. Usually, I think the last election was between 500 to 600 million.

So that included all the pandemic measures. But yeah, it's expensive to run an election because it happens everywhere and we have to get to every community whether there's roads or not. For 600 million bucks, okay Ken I'm gonna ask you, for 600 million bucks should there be some money in there to make sure the teachers are adequately teaching civics to future voters? Yes, I think so. I mean you know I don't want to downplay the expense of running an election, of course. That's sort of outside of my particular wheelhouse. But yeah, I mean, I think just in general, there needs to be more support and more funding opportunities,

not only in terms of funding opportunities, but development opportunities to help teachers teach civics. Elections Canada, Elections Ontario, should they have more responsibilities as it relates to civics and getting the word out? I mean they're putting out some really great resources already for teachers that we can use. An issue comes in with different teachers that are teaching civics and it's a bit of a revolving door, having that time and that collection of consistent teachers is critical so that they can access those. Because if it's just somebody that's kind of thrown in there for their timetable's sake,

and then they go on the next year, there's that inconsistency. So I think for me it all goes back to it being a full course, because that gives us the time and a collection of expertise that we can access all of these resources. Tell me this, is it tricky to teach this stuff knowing that if you're going to get into it, maybe you're going to get into issues as well and when you get into issues as well, you run the risk of kind of snuggling up to the partisan line here and that opens potential doors for parents to get mad at you.

Why are you teaching my kid this, et cetera? Is that difficult? More often than not now, when you're teaching at the front of the room, you're teaching at the kitchen table. You realize that it's not just the student in front of you. But if you're not talking about issues, you're not teaching civics properly.

You want kids to be engaging around these issues and having their opinions. You have to do it in a safe and you know supported way and at the end of the day the students shouldn't be able to know which political affiliation you're in and it is a tricky line but that's why you become a teacher. I got a fast story for you here. I remember we're going back 30 years now Mike Harris is the premier He's having fights with teachers all the time. And Chris Stockwell is a member of his cabinet,

I think, from a topical, Chris Stockwell. And his daughter's name is Victoria. And all the teachers of the day were not doing what you just suggested, Nathan. They were wearing buttons in classes with the word Tory in the button and then a red line slashed through it. And Chris Stockwell's daughter, Victoria, whom all her friends called Tory, came home

from class and says, my teacher's got a button on with my name on it and she hates me, my teacher. And Chris assured her, Tory, she doesn't hate you, she hates me. Just to clarify, just to let everybody know. Ken, okay, your organization put out a report last year, you surveyed 1,400 teachers across the country. It found that only half the teachers felt highly confident about teaching civics,

and outside of social studies, a quarter of the teachers saying they weren't confident at all about teaching the subject. What'd you take away from that? Well, I think a lot of things that we took away from that, one was kind of the discussion that we're having here about civics being that course that's sometimes forgotten about the course That is when it's treated as a half credit in Ontario For example, we've heard a lot of teachers say that it being given that kind of role as the half credit

Makes a lot of people think of it as something that they don't really need to take that seriously. It's something that is You know, maybe it's a bird course, maybe it's something that it just ends. You know, you don't build on it to continue out throughout your education. And that's, as Nathan mentioned, it's not a teachable, right? So when you don't have the kind of training to get there, then, you know, it's difficult to be really passionate about it. It's difficult to cover everything you need to cover there. We saw teachers expressed a lot of frustration around their inability to do something that they really wanted to do well. Okay.

So there's every possibility that Jill Dunlap, the Minister of Education, and or her staff are watching this or listening to this right now. Lay an idea on them. Okay. are watching this or listening to this right now. Lay an idea on them. OK, well, I mean, I think that we do need to think about civics as something that is, as I mentioned, something that is involved more so in the curriculum.

It's something that needs to have more attention paid to it at the pre-service level. Like, teachers need to, when they're learning how to teach, learn how to teach civics. That should just be, and not just social studies teachers, not just humanities teachers, but really everybody should be involved more in learning teach civics. That should just be, and not just social studies teachers, not just humanities teachers, but really everybody should be involved more in learning about civics. At the in-service level, there needs to be more

professional development opportunities, more funding opportunities for teachers to get up to speed on some of these new things that we have seen put into the new curriculum. Nathan, what would you recommend to the minister? I would say that civics and history need to be seen as important as STEM. That there is an intrinsic value to our greater society for our students to know how their democracy and how their country and how their history works.

And so we need to treat it as such. Let's give the last word on this to Elections Canada. Not a partisan statement, just what could they do to improve things? Yeah, I think I would agree with both of my colleagues here that more attention to teacher development is really key because what we know is that when teachers don't feel confident in a subject, they will fall back on rote learning and they won't be able to engage the students in conversation and I think that that's really detrimental in the civics classroom. Making sure teachers are confident about what they're

teaching, that is the best way to get the word out. Agreed. And it's like a ripple in the lake, it goes out from there. Yeah. Terrific. Let's thank our guest, shall we? Nathan Tidridge. And pick up his book if you like, Canada's Constitutional Monarchy, an introduction to our form of government. It's a good start to figuring out what it is we actually do here.

Rachel Kalashaw, Elections Canada. Ken Boyd, Director of Education at Civics Canada. Thanks so much to you three. Great to have you at a TVO today.