The Agenda with Steve Paikin (Audio) - Is the U.S. Authoritarian Yet?

Episode Date: May 8, 2025

History is easy in the rearview. When you look back things are a lot neater and tidier - you can say this is authoritarianism, this is fascism, this is the obvious threshold or signpost for crossing into it. History though may not be as obvious when you are living it. Has the United States crossed the threshold into authoritarianism? Or fascism? The Atlantic's Tom Nichols weighs in. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hello everybody in the Hammer and Beyond. We are coming your way. May 10th at the Music Hall in downtown Hamilton. We're recording a new episode of TVO Today Live and we'd love to see you there. We're talking to the amazing and multi-award winning Canadian musicians, Sarah Harmer, Cadence Weppen, and Tom Wilson,

about the power of music and musicians in our culture, and especially during tumultuous political times. Tickets are free, thanks to the Wilson Foundation. musicians in our culture and especially during tumultuous political times. Tickets are free thanks to the Wilson Foundation. Go to tvo.org slash tvotodaylive or search it directly on Eventbrite. So join us May 10th, 7 p.m. in Hamilton. And joining us now, Tom Nichols, staff writer for The Atlantic Magazine and author of The Death of Expertise, the Campaign Against Established Knowledge and Why It Matters.

Tom, I want to just get you to focus on a couple of things here. When you look back at history, where things may have been a little neater and tidier than they are right now. For example, we could point to authoritarianism and say, that's what it looks like. Or fascism and say, that's what it looks like, or fascism and say, that's what it looks like. There was an obvious threshold for these things. History may not be as obvious to those of us when we're living through it. So let's look at your country today. Do you think you are actually in the midst of either of those phenomena I just described?

Either of those phenomena I just described. I think we're not an authoritarian system yet, but that's the struggle that's underway right now. I think that the United States is in the midst of a slow motion, but already in progress constitutional crisis. This actually does relate to the problem of expertise, that when judges say that's not what the Constitution says as the judicial branch and the people tasked with judicial review, that the executive branch, the president is saying, I disagree and I'm not going to obey your orders on this. That is a really unprecedented situation that even presidents who loathe being told what to do by judges obey those rulings. Richard Nixon was told to hand over his tapes and he fought it in court to the very end and then finally he lost and he said, okay, here's my tapes.

And he handed them over and it ended his presidency. But I think the world has been kind of lurching toward authoritarianism. Again, in part, because I think particularly in the Western nations, we both were suffering from two things at the same time, very rapid change, demographic and technological change, but also very high standards of living that allow people the luxury of complaining about how bad everything is. And, you know, that, that I think that that's always a lethal combination. And that goes back in history.

I mean, in 1951, the author Eric Hoffer warned about exactly the same thing when he was looking back at the growth of fascism and mass movements in Europe. He said, you know, it's bad if a lot of people are poor. It's even worse if people are bored because those are people more likely to join that kind of movement. And I think that's, that's what we're seeing particularly in the United States, but around the world. Do you think the president of the United States just doesn't understand that the courts and

the Congress are co-equal branches of government and therefore have equal power to him in some respects? Does he not get that? He doesn't understand it and he doesn't care. I think I'm probably on solid ground saying Donald Trump is one of the least informed men ever to hold the office of president. I mean, he has no intellectual curiosity. He doesn't read. To this day, he doesn't really understand the constitution.

I doubt that he's ever read it. And so it's basically a dual problem, Steve. He doesn't understand the constitution, but also he doesn't understand the that he's ever read it. And so it's basically a dual problem, Steve. He doesn't understand the constitution, but also he doesn't care because it's not relevant to him. He judges everything in terms of how it benefits him and how it affects him because he is a narcissistic kind of personality. And so when people say the constitution this or the constitution

that all he cares about is how, how does this help me in any way? You say that the United States is not yet an authoritarian country. Do you know yourself where that line is and what would Mr. Trump have to do to cross that line, to take you to that place? I think he's trying now with telling private media companies, private industry, private law firms, all trying to tell them all what to do and silence them if they oppose him. That is classic.

That's a classic authoritarian play. Now, I think for people wondering, is there a day where the United States simply crosses over into authoritarianism? I think our federal system is why that won't happen all at once. I mean, I live in New England. It's already different to live in New England, say, than to live in the deep South in terms of laws and courts and the general environment. And I think when democracy begins to fail, as I think it's beginning to in some

parts of the United States, you'll see that happen regionally rather than as a blanket national thing, because you'll get states challenging constitutional principles and precepts, and the president will say, I'm staying out of it. Go ahead and do what you're going to do. You, of course, if I can use this word, have expertise as it relates to the history of the Soviet Union.

Knowing what you know about that country at that time when it existed, do you see your country becoming more like it today? No, although it's interesting. The two things that I think the Trump administration most resembles from the old Soviet Union is one is that it's governed, the Republican party is now governed by a cult of personality, which the Soviets regularly had even after Stalin, that they glorified the chief party leader and pinned medals all over him. Here in the United States, we're already thinking about a massive military

parade, cost tens of millions of dollars to celebrate Donald Trump's birthday. I mean, that's straight out of the old Soviet Union. The other is that Donald Trump is fascinated with the idea of being at the center of a command economy. I mean, you've seen in the past week that Donald Trump is fascinated with the idea of being at the center of a command economy. I mean, you've seen in the past week that Donald Trump says things like, well, you don't need this many dolls. You can have two. You don't need 30 different kinds of toys.

That's the stuff the old, I mean, I used to go to the Soviet Union and they would say things to me like, why do you need 25 brands of toothpaste? You know, you only need two, you need two flavors of toothpaste. Donald Trump sounds exactly like a Soviet central planner when he talks that way. But as for the rest of it, America is still the land of the free and the home of the brave. And, you know, so far we're muddling through. But yeah, I mean, there are times when even I make jokes about how much the

people in the White House sound like old Soviet commissars lecturing us about, you know, how many useless gadgets we buy. That's Tom Nichols from the Atlantic magazine. Once again, the book, The Death of Expertise, the campaign against established knowledge and why it matters. Tom, always good to have you on TVO. Thanks so much.

Thank you, Steve.