The Agenda with Steve Paikin (Audio) - Is the World Falling Backwards?

Episode Date: June 25, 2025

After the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989 and then the end of the Soviet Union in 1991, many thought the world was going to be a much better place going forward. That has not turned out to be the case. 9/11; the failed promise of the Arab Spring; the Middle East still on fire; Russia-Ukraine; political tribalism. Does it sometimes feel as if the world is no longer capable of making progress? Host Steve Paikin asks Janice Stein (Founding Director, Munk School of Global Affairs and Public Policy, and Belzberg Professor of Conflict Management, University of Toronto). See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In 2017, it felt like drugs were everywhere in the news. So I started a podcast called On Drugs. We covered a lot of ground over two seasons, but there are still so many more stories to tell. I'm Jeff Turner and I'm back with season three of On Drugs. And this time, it's going to get personal. I don't know who Sober Jeff is. I don't even know if I like that guy.

On Drugs is available now wherever you get your podcasts. One guest who's made frequent visits to our program since the very beginning is the one and only Janice Stein. She is of course the founding director of the Munk School of Global Affairs and Public Policy and Bellsburg Professor of Conflict Management at the University of Toronto. She's helped us navigate the muddy morass that is foreign policy, and we thought we'd invite her onto the agenda

one last time to give us her insights into the state of the world before asking some others to join us as well for some more thoughts. Janice, great to have you here in this last week of our program. So great to be here with you. See, we have looked at the world together for 19 years. I want to, there's a bit of a setup here, after the

fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989 and then of course the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991, I think many people who do what you do for a living thought this world is going to be a much nicer place going forward. This has not turned out to be the case. 9-11, the failure of the Arab Spring, the Middle East this week, still on fire. Russia, Ukraine, political tribalism. One simple question before we ask the others to join us. Does it sometimes feel as if the world is no longer capable of making progress? In all honesty, some days, yes, that's exactly how it does feel.

But Steve, you have to ask, from whose perspective is it not making progress? For the vast majority of the world, having one big superpower, hegemon, that makes the the rules did not always feel very good. So the diffusion of power to China, which represents a billion people and is the leading power in Asia, for those billion Chinese, it feels very good. And in fact, it's all about progress for them. For India, it feels very good.

There are large parts of Africa and South America that would say much better than when there was one capital city that made the rules. So people say this to me all the time, our liberal values are in retreat. Democracy is in retreat. And yes, there are these periods in history. There's no question about it. But that's from our perspective. Our meaning, our Western perspective?

Our Western perspective. And I think what's very important to realize, the West, geographically, is now a minority in the worldically is now a minority in the world. We're a minority in the world, but of course it's not atypical for people who live in the West and believe in the values of the West to think that, you know, our way is the best way. Yes, it is. And therefore we don't feel like we're in ascension anymore, and that's not good for the whole planet. Are we entitled to feel like we're in ascension anymore, and that's not good for the whole planet.

Are we entitled to feel that way? No. That's exactly the logic chain. Our values are not particular to us, and to our societies, and to our cultures. They're universal. They are the right way for the whole world. Like the Catholic Church thought about itself at different

points in its history, we are the arc of progress for the whole world. But the Catholic Church wasn't right, and I'm not convinced that we are right, but it's a sense of we are in, you know, we are no longer ascendant. Our values are challenged by China, by Russia, by many others, frankly. We have problems in our domestic society that is leading to this malice, to loss of confidence. And it's just, if you think about it a different way, it is just an awakening of the rest of the world, who've grown

while we were busy telling everybody that it was our way, what's the best way. We're gonna do one more thing here before we get everybody else to join us and that is, you want to see what you look like 31 years ago? Oh my. Your debut on Studio Two back in 1994. Sheldon, roll it. Seems to me there's something something else going on here. And I must say, Eric, I find it tough to understand why you're so upset that the Americans are exercising influence and autonomy in Haiti. And now this is an American-run island, but you have trouble when the Russians go for their near abroad. There's a contradiction here, but it's beyond the near abroad. Look at the arms control proposals that came out. That's a quintessentially Russian set of proposals.

One seize the high ground. Two, put forward proposals that you have no, absolutely no chance of flying. Why do you do this? Because it appeases the Russian military and gives Boris Yeltsin a little bit of time to maneuver at home. Broaden the club. With your pals Richard Gwyn and Eric Margulies and can you believe that's us? I can't believe that's us. I just asked Steve how old was he then and he answered

the question but he didn't ask me how old I was then which is very gentlemanly of you. Do you want me to? Because I know how old you are today. You do. Anyway, Janice, you have been like a superstar answering the call for us time after time after time after time. And we're not done with you yet because we're going to invite some others to the table to continue the discussion about where we're at in foreign affairs in the world today. So stay tuned, okay? I will.