The Agenda with Steve Paikin (Audio) - Is Trump's Tariff Threat a Bluff or a Sign of Things to Come?

Episode Date: December 4, 2024

Before entering the White House, U.S. President Elect Donald Trump announced that he will sign an executive order imposing a 25 per cent tariff on all products coming into the United States from Canada and Mexico. The Agenda speaks with global affairs and trades experts who will discuss whether we should call Trump's bluff. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In a fractured information environment, isn't it hard to tell what's real and what's not? I'm Molly Thomas, host of a new show called Big If True. We're fighting misinformation one story at a time. Subscribe on YouTube and follow us on Instagram. I'm Matt Nethersole. And I'm Tiff Lam. From TVO Podcasts, this is Queries. This season, we're asking, when it comes to defending your beliefs, how far is too far?

We follow one story from the boardroom to the courtroom. And seek to understand what happens when beliefs collide. Where does freedom of religion end and freedom from discrimination begin? That's this season on Queries in Good Faith, a TVO original podcast. Follow and listen wherever you get your podcasts. Before entering the White House, US President-elect Donald Trump announced that he would sign an executive order imposing a 25% tariff on all products coming into the United States from Canada and Mexico. Should we take him at his word? Or is this a bluff to get something else? Let's find out from Giles Gerson. He's president CEO of the Toronto Region Board of Trade. Mark

Warner, Canadian and American trade lawyer with Ma La and Deanna Horton, distinguished fellow at the University of Toronto's Munk School of Global Affairs and Public Policy. And it's great to welcome the three of you back to our studio here today. I just wonder, Deanna, start us off. How should we be reacting to Trump's latest broadside? I think we should be trying to step back and take the long view. I think we need to be prepared. But we also have to recognize that just based

on the previous administration, that there's a lot of back and forth administration that there's a lot of back-and-forth and there's a lot of posturing but I think the trends that have been between Canada and the US and the US kind of working more towards in a industrial policy protectionist and the impact of trade agreements in general that's the long-term trend. And that's what we need to prepare for. When you say the previous administration, do you mean Biden or Trump 1?

Trump 1. Trump 1. Gotcha. Mark, your view. I mean, similar to that, I think you've got to take him seriously. I think the current threat isn't just directed at Canada and Mexico. I think it's a message to the world. And so part of responding to this, I think Canada has to realize that

because, you know, if you're responding to everything he does, as if it's a nuclear DEFCON one or whatever it is, you know, there'll be another one coming down next week because he's trying to send a message to others to have a negotiated with them. So I think, you know, I think we, we, we, we go from that. I mean, I think also the thing about Trump that I think we go from that. I mean, I think also the thing about Trump that I think we learned from Trump one is that he does bluster. He does make threats and there is some negotiating. He is a transactional person, but he's also, when he's backed

into a corner, he'll punch back very hard and punches way out of the corner. And sort of in responding to him, you've got to figure out how not to react like your hair's on fire. But you've also got to react in a way that you don't sort of put him in the corner, that he then says, oh, you don't think I'll do this? Well, then I'll do it just for fun. You've got to leave him out. You've got to leave him out.

Charles. Well, yeah, it may well be that our hair isn't on fire yet. But it could be, you know, on January 20 or just after that. I think you have to, as both are saying, I think we have to take this very seriously. We had 25% tariffs on steel and aluminum back in 2018, lasted a year. It's devastating for our steel sector.

So we've been through that, we know what it's like. I don't think we can afford to go through it again. I'd also point out, we're somewhat weaker as an economy than we were six years ago. Our economy's been in a bit of a tailspin. If you look at GDP per capita, you know, our wealth generally has been going down relative to the United States quite sharply. So we're in a weak position. So yeah, I think we have to bargain as strongly as we can, but we are dealing from a position of weakness.

And I think we have to clear the decks and make sure these tariffs don't come on. They'll be devastating if they do. Can you, I'd like Mark to follow up on that, really explain to people who may not know what tariffs are or what they do, if you put a 25% tariff on goods X, Y and Z, it will do this to the price, as a result it will have this effect on businesses in Canada. Sure. I mean the idea is basically if you start with a product that's worth $100 and you put 25% tariff on it, the cost of that product then goes up to $125.

So it means that basically anything we're trying to sell into the United States that we're selling for $100 will now sell for $125, which will reduce American demand. Now, who pays for it? Economists can argue back and forth about it. It really depends on sort of the shape of the curves and things you learn in first-year economics. But for the most part, the people who are going to pay for it are going to be the consumers, so American consumers,

unless Americans can ramp up production fast enough and replace the production. Simplistic follow-up question. If that's what happens to the price when a 25% tariff gets put on it, why can our businesses not simply say, that thing I used to sell for $100, I'm going to sell for $75. So when you tariff at a 25%, we're where we were. We can. And that's what I was saying when you talk about the shape of the lines

under the graph that you learn in first-year economics. So, and that's what it is. Some businesses will be able to eat that, some won't, right? Some people won't be able to do that. And most won't if it's a competitive market, the idea that there'd be that much that you could shave off. In some cases, it'll be the American importers, the person standing in between the consumer

and the Canadian exporter. They'll say, well, I'll shave my margins because I want to preserve those relationships. And I think that's really how it works. Is there any way we get away with 25% tariffs if they get imposed upon us? Is there any way we get away with 25 percent tariffs if they get imposed upon us? Is there any way we get away without a lot of the quite apocalyptic prognostications we've heard so far? Well I'd also like to take the view from the

US. Don't forget that 25 percent is going to be 25 percent that the consumer is going to have to pay. So I was an aft negotiator, and the idea was that, yes, we would have a free trade agreement, and things would get cheaper. And then, of course, China went into the WTO. We've all been having a flood of Chinese products that are cheaper. But what is the American consumer

going to say when the prices go up by 25%? So I would like to think that cooler heads will prevail and that it could be a selective and this is where I think the US is going anyway that they're going to be looking at what is strategically important and I think what Canada has to do is persuade the United States of our partnership. We have to demonstrate where we are in terms of our investment in the U.S., their dependence on us for oil and gas. Can you imagine putting a 25 percent tariff on oil and gas into the U.S.?

That would be a problem. They want our oil and gas. One would think. One would think. One would think. Well, President Trump at last Friday's dinner with Prime Minister Trudeau talked about the Keystone XL being revived. So they want more of our oil and gas, it would appear.

So already over 30% of our exports to the US is oil and gas. And so when President Trump talked of this massive trade deficit with Canada, you take oil and gas. And so when President Trump talked about this massive trade deficit with Canada, you take oil and gas out of the picture. We're probably in a deficit position or in balance. So, you know, a manufactured product, those kinds of things.

So oil and gas is a really big factor. And I agree with Yann. I think I'm sure they will exclude oil and gas, petroleum products from the mix. And I'm sure they'll exclude oil and gas, petroleum products from the mix. And I'm sure they'll exclude critical minerals from the mix. And there'll be other raw resources, perhaps, that they'll exclude, but that still leaves us with manufactured goods, which is a big for Ontario, a huge part of our trade.

But presumably these carve-outs don't just happen. We have to lobby like hell for them. Is that how it happens? Absolutely. Do you want to tell us about your experience with NAFTA and how the carboats take place? Well, yes, and I think particularly for automotive, that is something where you have, and same with steel actually, you have a really integrated industry between the two countries. And that's where I think we have some bargaining power. But the really key element is to work on our US allies.

Because it's not just the White House. It's in Congress. It's governors. It's all kinds of levels of government. And we have to ensure that our allies, because we have so many partners in the US. I worked on a map, this was several years ago, but showed all of the Ontario investments in the

United States, you know, over 11,000 something like that. It was it was pretty amazing and when you are able to go to a congressman and say here is where Canadian investment is in your district, That's what we need to do. We need to get industry in line. We need to get the politicians in line. The White House is only one of the decision makers in the United States. Yeah, this is what worries me a little bit.

I know what I think I have a good sense of what Trump's going to do. I'm not too worried. I think there's a certain predictability to his unpredictability. It's the Canadian response that I worry about. I think there's a certain predictability to his unpredictability. Okay. It's the Canadian response that I worry about. I worry that Canadians believe what Dan has said, to be very honest with you. I think if you look at the aluminum and steel tariffs, the Americans had concerns about

Chinese imports coming to Canada, getting mixed with Canadian product. Canada negotiated too hard and Trump turned around and said, okay, I'll put the tariffs in place and I'll find some archaic feature of my trade law to do it. A year later, Canada agreed to do what Trump wanted to do all along. The tariffs came off. I wonder if Trump is his last term, probably never run for anything again. It's funny how you say probably. Yeah, I love it.

At least for certain. So at the end of the day, when I look at it, Steve, and I say, I ask myself, look, this guy with his, given his personality, I don't think you can roll him the way we can roll Biden. Right? You have the President, Biden had the signature legislative initiative, the Inflation Reduction Act, half his cabinet down to Washington, and basically embarrassed the American president. I don't think we'll be able to do that.

So I wonder, I worry sometimes we put too many eggs in this, we've got these allies down there and they can muscle over and tell the president. Because I don't think Trump will tolerate that. Well, having said that, the Premier of Ontario has a new ad out today, which is going to remind all those senators, congressmen, governors, that we are the number one trading partner for X number of American states. Seventeen. Seventeen American states. Do you think that can succeed?

I think it has some merit. I think it's a useful strategy. I mean, the province has been out there. Premier Ford's been out there. His ministers have been out there talking to governors and senators for the last bunch of months because they worried this was coming our way. And so I think it has some... I think it gives you a certain amount of ballast. But the reality is, you know, what Mark said is true, I think, that President Trump seems determined to move forward with this, unless he gets what he wants.

And so you saw at the Friday, you know, the meatloaf summit, we can call it perhaps, down in Mar-a-Lago, that, I mean certainly the Mexican border is a huge issue for migrants and synthetic drugs coming through. The Canadian border has been increasingly a problem, although it's nothing near the scale of the Mexican problem. While you're on that, let's follow up with that because I got some numbers here. Okay, President Trump, incoming President Trump, talked about drugs being a problem on the two borders. And let's just do a little comparison here. These are US numbers here.

The agency, US Customs and Border Protection, they seized 19.5 kilograms of fentanyl from our border. 19.5 kilograms versus 9,570 from the southern border with Mexico. So why is he making such a big deal out of our border? Well, I think there's been an increase, so they're watching that. I think the bigger issue is less the synthetic drugs and more the illegal migration. I think we're seeing again a substantial increase across the Canadian border. Now that's gone down in the last couple of months, substantially.

Actually, funnily enough, both Mexico and Canada. But I think what we're going to have to look for is a bit of a grand bargain here, I think. And it's going to have to include trade, because clearly that's one of the biggest issues. And you know, Deanna mentioned steel. We've already imposed a 25% tariff on Chinese steel, like 300 different categories of steel last October, when we imposed 100% tariff on Chinese EVs and batteries. And so we have followed US trade policy quite closely.

Is it working? Unlike anybody else. It's only been in place for two months. But I think the Americans will have to acknowledge, unlike any other country, we have followed U.S. trade policy. Let me ask about the value of the dollar, because we've been hearing, again, a lot of apocalyptic prognostications about what, if these tariffs go ahead, what will happen to our dollar.

Let's say, for example, the dollar goes as low as 55 cents US 50 cents US which I hear what does that do to us? Oh that harms us there's no doubt although traditionally one always assumed that if the dollar were lower that meant we could export more but we import so much as well. The inputs just a couple of points on what Giles has just said, though. First of all, in Washington, when you say the word border, people automatically think southern border. And so we get caught up on border issues all the time, just for that reason. The second thing in a longer term, though, what I

would worry about is what happens with the review of the NAFTA. And KUSMA or USMCA, whatever. USMCA. USMCA, right. When's that coming? That's still a couple years away. 26. But that is not that far away.

And I think that it's going to be very important that we work to ensure that it continues as it is or is improved but you know we also have to prepare for the fact that you know it may not survive and this is a this is a huge challenge going forward. You heard Doug Ford say the other day that he thought it would be a better idea for us to go bilateral with the US and just exclude Mexico. Bad idea. Bad idea? Yeah it's an asymmetrical relationship.

Us and them. Us and the US. Therefore, having somebody else in the room, I think during, at least during the first negotiation, was very helpful. Mark? You know, from the way I look at this, more of a sort of historical perspective that, you know, Canada never wanted Mexico at the table, right? The history of that is we did our first FTA and we thought we had hit the jackpot and then the Americans turned around immediately and started negotiating with Mexico

and Canada was like, what? And asked to get at the table. And pretty much every Canadian government ever since has looked for ways to get Mexico out. In fact, we tried to get Mexico out before they did their side agreement with the United States and then we got added to the created came to USMCA. So I'm not surprised with that. Ultimately, it's not a decision in my view that Canada has anything to do with Canada. It's easier for the Americans would have so many problems around the world with Asia,

with Europe and Latin America, further south. They don't have time to do two separate talks with Canada and Mexico. So it's an interesting conversation in Canada. It will, in my view, go absolutely nowhere. So ultimately, it's going to be all three together. It will be all three together. Can I raise a point about that? I mean, one of the things that I think the Americas are very

focused on in the Kuzma is backdoor. Is China or is Mexico or Canada a backdoor to Chinese product coming in? And it's quite clear that Mexico has been. If you look at autos, for example, it's rising rapidly. I think about 20% of their exports of cars to the United States are actually not duty-free. They're paying the tariff because they have Chinese inputs. And the reality is that 2.5% tariff into the US is so nominal, so minimal, that it's worth

doing. So Canada's got the same problem. We've got a massive trade deficit with Mexico. Maybe more or less in balance with the United States, absent oil and gas. But with Mexico, on a $3.8 billion two-way trade, they have a $3 billion surplus. Here's the problem I have a little bit with that, what makes me worry a little bit, is it's true, all of that's true to some extent, but you also have to look at who are the parts makers

in Mexico. A lot of our Canadian, we call them Canadian auto parts makers, are in Mexico. They're not bringing parts to Mexico from Canada. They're coming from China. The big win that Canada and Mexico had in the first dispute settlement case brought under USMCA was to do with rules of origins.

And I've been saying for many years now, that case had nothing to do with Canada and Mexico. It was really about how much Chinese content you could have in a part that could still be called Mexican and Canadian. Canada and Mexico were very happy when they want it. Now Canada is trumpeting that we've harmonized our tariff rules to align with Americans on these hundred% tariffs on electric vehicles. I haven't heard the Canadian government formally say they no longer agree with that dispute settlement case they want.

So we kind of suck and blow on this stuff. One of the big pieces of legislation in Congress right now has to do with something called the de minimis rule, an $800 rule that was highly contentious in the negotiation of the USMCA because the Americans wanted Canada and Mexico to raise our de minimis rule, an $800 rule that was highly contentious in the negotiation of the USMCA because the Americans wanted Canada and Mexico to raise our de minimis rules, which are considerably lower to $800. What people say, what Americans will say, is that the Chinese are coming on both sides of the border and setting up facilitation facilities which then sell product into the United States.

So I don't believe that Canada will get away with this idea of saying, they do it but we don't. Look at them, don't believe that Canada will get away with this idea of saying, they do, but we don't. Look at them, don't look at us. Go ahead. Well, I was just going to say, I think the elephant in the room is China. The issues that were brought up by the president-elect and the issues that I think the US has been facing

is also some of the issues that Canada faces. And I think it's going to be very important that Canada approach the US in a way that will emphasize that we have we share their we share concerns we want to collaborate and you know and we also have to skip to defense for example we need to improve defense in the Arctic which we are starting to do but we have to do some things that will allow the U.S. to continue to play. We want the U.S. to continue to be the leader. And if it's not, then we are really in trouble.

So we have to support them at the same time as we are fighting them on some fronts. But, Giles, if I understood what you said, we have to convince Trump that we're not going to be a backdoor for cheaper Chinese goods getting into the United States. Absolutely. We've done it on steel and we've done it on EVs. The question is what else? I mean, I think, and it's in our interest as much, frankly, as theirs. And so I think the bargain, as Diana says, will have to include the border, it'll have

to include defense, but it'll also have to basically assure the Americans that we're not a back door, we won't be a back door. And that's maybe where the interest between Canada and Mexico may part, and we'll see about that. And I think that's what Premier Ford was really alluding to. He has been, well, what do we say? He said the other day, well, you know what?

Let's let him say it. Sheldon, we're right below chapter three there. Let's roll that clip from Premier Ford. I found his comments unfair. I found them insulting. It's like a family member stabbing you right in the heart. Just a reminder to the American people, yes, it will hurt Canada, yes, it will hurt Canada, yes it will hurt Ontario,

but it will hurt Americans. It will hurt their economy when nine million Americans don't wake up to produce products. I want to emphasize that compare us to Mexico is the most insulting thing I've ever heard from our friends and closest allies, the United States of America. from our friends and closest allies, United States of America. Look, we've known enough politicians over the years to know when they're putting on a show. That guy's not putting on a show. Giles, he is heartbroken that his friend, Donald Trump,

is screwing him over this way. I don't know about his friend, but I certainly say that he's heartbroken. His political soulmate. Well, I don't think it's that as much as I think it's that the United States, where he has worked, right? He ran a company in Chicago for many years and believed the Americans to be our close friends.

During COVID, I worked closely with him during that period, he was extremely upset at the way we were treated by the US during COVID. Ford was. Ford was, because we were denied access to PPEs, ventilators, and a whole bunch of other stuff. And I think he's seeing the same thing again.

So he believes in the relationship. He believes in an integrated economy. And frankly, we've been at this a lot longer than the Mexicans have in terms of that trade relationship going back, for example, to the Auto Pact in 1965. So to be treated the same way, what he's saying is, I think a he regards it as an insult and I you know I don't think he's wrong. What did you make of the Premier's comments? Like I said earlier I think to me this has been the position Canada has always had on Mexico. Canadians have a sense of itself of ourselves as being the what I call either the senior junior partner in

the North American relationship or the junior-senior partner, whichever way you want to do it. When you work in Washington and you work in New York, as I have, Americans don't really see that relationship that way. And I don't know. When the FTA was originally signed by Brian Maroney, we were their most important trading relationship. Now, depending on what day of the week it is,

it's either China or Mexico. In terms of the investment relationship, those sort of parts coming through are really important for them as well. So yes, we are important. In the 80s, coming after the oil price shocks, our oil and gas and guaranteed access to our oil and gas was the singular American priority.

That's not their singular American priority now. They're a net exporter of oil and gas. So I think Canada has to sort of Adjust to where we are in the world now As opposed to where we think we are in the world now. I got another clip I want to show you okay, okay last week We had Lord Axworthy come in here the former foreign minister for many years ago He's just got his memoirs out right now. He's about to turn 85 years old. We talked about this Here's what he had to say Sheldon if you would

to turn 85 years old. Goodness. We talked about this. Here's what he had to say. Sheldon, if you would. There are some very deep economic issues. I wish to hell some of these premiers would shut up for a while and stop talking about kicking Mexico out. You need Mexico.

That's Doug Ford's position. Yeah, Doug Ford's position is Smith, and he's out there bragging all the premiers. Look, if you take Mexico off the table, you're left one and one with the Americans. You want to negotiate one on one with Donald Trump rather than having the two most important trading countries together? Come on, that's bad politics.

And secondly, Mexico is becoming an important customer for Canada. But we've got these guys who kind of, I don't know, what they do in their provincial capitals. Do they sort of put tar paper over the windows or something? There's not much light getting in. What'd you think of that? Well, he spoke his mind. You agree with him though, don't you?

Well, let's put it this way. I think we are up against, we're going to be up, the next four years are going to be a challenge, no matter what. And it really is important that we try and stick together. And I think, as Giles mentioned earlier, for example, we need to approach the Americans on things that are of interest to them, such as critical minerals, for example.

We need to prove that we are, I also agree with Mark, we're not that important. We are not the most important trading relationship anymore. So how, what leverage do we have? Very little. So we need to do, we need to take every resource that we have and pour it into this relationship because it is still the most important relationship for us. Let me be a little less myopic just for a second here. We know how Canada, Mark, has responded to this. Justin Trudeau went down to Mar-a-Lago.

We brought a cabinet minister with them, Dominic LeBlanc. Who else did he bring? Oh, he brought Katie Telford as chief of staff. We know what the premiers are doing in terms of their full court press. We have, I'm sure Mexico has had a response. We're not as aware of it because obviously we don't care as much.

But how have they reacted? Well, the Mexico has a new president, the first woman president, I guess a leader, if not Kim Campbell, because I apologize to her. You know, so she's new. She's taking over from her predecessor, her political mentor. She's got an agenda that looks very much like sticking with his agenda, her predecessor's agenda, which is very activist, very contested by foreign investors. And her response to Trump was really tough.

It was not like I'm going to cave. It was actually a tougher response than AMLO, her predecessor made. So, but then they had a phone call and Trump was charming. And then as he always does said, well, this is what we agreed. And then she said, no, it's not what we agreed. So that's always what you're going to get with Trump. So we'll watch that relationship. I mean, the reality of the Mexicans, the Mexicans have something really important.

And that's the ability to turn on and off a spigot of people coming across the border. And yes, Donald Trump can threaten to use the army and to do things that look very draconian. I don't think he really wants to do that. So, you know, and if he, if he has army and to do things that look very draconian. I don't think he really wants to do that. And if he has to, and back to the corner, I think he would. But I think if he could avoid it, he would prefer to do that because it'll look ugly. And Mexicans, all they have to do is say, really?

OK, here they come. And that's something we, at least to this point, don't have. OK. So that's what we can make. Giles, I'm going to get myopic again. We don't know when any of this is going to happen, or what's going to happen, or what the deadlines are,

or timetables and so on. We do know at some point in the next year we're going to have an election in this country. And there's every possibility we could get a new prime minister. Do we have any reason to believe that Pierre Poliev would prosecute this file any differently from Justin Trudeau? Well, he probably... I don't know whether we know how he would prosecute the file, but we do know that he would be a different... you know, he would be a different... a newcomer, a new prime minister.

I think, you know, I think to the degree that maybe we have a prime minister who's been in power for now quite a long time, you know, nine years, and is not as popular as he once was. As all politicians eventually, you know, we're out there welcome. I think the Americans would probably be looking at a new prime minister with, you know, with a fresh mandate a little differently than a prime minister who's been around a long time. And this administration, obviously, while I think the prime minister has done pretty well with them over the past, I think there's always a question of whether there isn't some antipathy there

for ideological reasons or other reasons that may make it more difficult to do a deal. But having said that, I think the real issue is, as Dan has said, as Mark has said, I think it's really we have to do some things that are in our interest and in the U.S. interest in order to try to clear this up. Remember, the Americans are, I mean, I hear Lloyd Axworthy, and I did work closely with Lloyd Axworthy a number of years ago,

I have a high regard for him. But I think the reality is the United States is our biggest customer. We need to treat them like our biggest customer. Mexico is a customer, but as I said, they have a three billion dollar surplus. We sell like $600 million to them, they sell three billion back to us, more than that. So actually, the big customer that we have

to pay attention to, and frankly all of our investment relies on, and our standard of living, is really our relationship with the United States. Just a couple of minutes left here actually let me try this with you. I'm going to use a nice Canadian expression here, okay? I don't know if you use this in foreign policy too much, but do you think Donald Trump and his incoming administration will just simply try to rag the puck on this issue in the hopes that Trudeau loses, Poliev comes in, cleans the slate, new guy to deal with, fellow

populist conservative to deal with. I don't want to push that too far, but there is more of that going on there, in which case he thinks maybe he gets a different deal. I wouldn't say they want to rag the puck for that reason. I don't even think they think about it that much. I think that the next, whoever the next administration is, the fundamentals are there. The only thing I would say is we need to look very closely at how things actually work. Yes, we have a deficit with Mexico, but how much of that is, as Mark says, Canadian

companies that have invested there. And so we really need to rethink Fortress North America. And that was a con, what we worked with several years ago. I don't see why it couldn't work out. Okay, my last minute here goes to Mark. Since the current Prime Minister's father was in power, we have been talking about diversifying our trading partners and not relying so much on the US as we are now for 77% or whatever it is of our trading relationship. Now would be a good time to actually do that, wouldn't it? You know, it is a great idea, but geography is our curse

and it's also the thing that benefits us the most, right? Every other country in the world would trade anything to be where Canada is located. And if you go anywhere else in the world, the that Canadians even question that makes them think are you crazy? You know Australia would love to be where Canada is today. It's very hard to be Canada and they're not where Canada is today geographically. Despite five and a half decades of effort it's just not on. It's hard to do but you know I think there are at the margins there are things to do. I think it's a whole other show for you for Steve.

I think the way we approach it I think is wrong. You know filling up planes full of dual Canadian citizens and going off to their ancestral homelands I think is an idiotic, you know I don't think you're gonna expand trade if 5% of the Canadian population can trade with their ancestral home. You're right Canadian and American trade lawyer with my law I also want to thank on the other side of the table, Jarls Gerstin, President, CEO, the Toronto Region Board of Trade. Deanna Horton, distinguished fellow at U of T's Munk School of Global Affairs and Public Policy. Great discussion everybody. Thanks for coming

in to Young and Eglinton today. Thank you, Steve.