The Agenda with Steve Paikin (Audio) - Jack Wang: Re-imagining the Life of a Chinese-Canadian Soldier in WWII

Episode Date: May 9, 2025

In his debut novel "The Riveter," author Jack Wang tells the story of two star-crossed lovers set amidst the backdrop of anti-Chinese racism in Canada that lasted decades before and well through the Second World War. And while the story may be fiction, there is an element of truth in this tale of love and war. Jack Wang joins Jeyan Jeganathan to discuss.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hello everybody in the Hammer and Beyond. We are coming your way. May 10th at the Music Hall in downtown Hamilton. We're recording a new episode of TVO Today Live and we'd love to see you there. We're talking to the amazing and multi-award winning Canadian musicians, Sarah Harmer, Cadence Weppen, and Tom Wilson,

about the power of music and musicians in our culture, and especially during tumultuous political times. Tickets are free, thanks to the Wilson Foundation. musicians in our culture and especially during tumultuous political times. Tickets are free thanks to the Wilson Foundation. Go to tvo.org slash tvotodaylive or search it directly on Eventbrite. So join us May 10th, 7 p.m. in Hamilton. In his debut novel, The Riveter, author Jack Wang, tells the story of two star-crossed lovers set amidst the backdrop of anti-Chinese racism in Canada

that lasted decades before and well through the Second World War. And while the story may be fiction, there is an element of truth in this tale of love and war. And it brings Jack Wang to our studio tonight. Welcome, Jack. Thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for having me. All right, so this is your first novel.

Why did you want to write a book about a Chinese-Canadian soldier during World War II? Yeah, I was really moved by the exploits of Chinese-Canadians during the Second World War, even though they didn't have full citizenship rights, even though they couldn't vote, even though they couldn't work in professions like law and medicine.

Many saw this as the opportunity to serve their country and to earn those citizenship rights and full status in Canada. And I felt like that was a story worth telling. Now, this isn't the first time that you've written stories about this topic. Your short stories, of course, touched on that. What initially drew you to these stories?

There are so many amazing stories of courage and sacrifice by Chinese Canadians. And I was particularly drawn to a book called The Dragon and the Maple Leaf by Marjorie Wong that actually tries to chronicle the service of every individual who served of Chinese descent in the First and Second World Wars. And there was a short passage on someone Richard Marr and he was the only Chinese Canadian to serve in the First Canadian Parachute Battalion. And this was a famous battalion. They never failed to accomplish a mission and they served in Europe, in Normandy, in the Ardennes and in Germany. And I was just fascinated by the fact that a Chinese Canadian served in that famed airborne unit. I'm going to imagine there are people who are probably going to be listening to our conversation here and might be surprised.

You know, there's a lot of history in this country that a lot of people don't know about. You touched on it a little bit, but can you paint that picture, what was life like for Chinese Canadians during that time? Sure. I think we forget now, 100 years on, that at the time of the Chinese Exclusion Act, or the Chinese Immigration Act of 1923,

it was very abject to be Chinese-Canadian. They were very much second-class citizens. One of the things the Chinese couldn't do, in fact, during the Second World War was join the military. There were some Chinese-Canadians that were admitted early on, but when Victoria and Ottawa realized that Chinese-Canadians could leverage their service for full citizenship rights, they were barred from the military. And it was only as the war progressed and there was a desperate need for servicemen that the Air Force and then the Navy and finally the Army, and not until 1944, admitted Chinese

Canadians. And so there were many things working against Chinese Canadians, but nonetheless they sell saw this as an opportunity Now you mentioned the Chinese Immigration Act of course that evolved into a law that barred Chinese from entering Canada before that There was the head tax and a price of $50 all the way as it moved on to $500 at some point. I'm curious You put a lot of time researching what that experience was like. Was there anything that shocked you that surprised you during your sort of research putting this story together? Yeah I think the fact that Chinese Canadians weren't allowed to serve in the military is

actually underappreciated and I was actually doing research you know on research for this novel in Ottawa, and I met somebody who insisted that Chinese Canadians could serve. And so even though this is a person who was working in the archives, this history wasn't apparent to them. And so it suggested to me this is a story that needs to be more broadly told. And that was suggested to me this is a story that needs to be more broadly told. And that was surprising to me that even those

who are involved in the military might not know this history. I'm curious as well, not just the military, but, and this comes around to your character, Zhesia Jiang, the protagonist, Chinese descent. But in the book, it talks about him being third or fourth generation and someone who lived in Vancouver. And there was still question as to whether he was a Canadian citizen and there's a bit of that character fighting that identity.

Could you explain that a little bit, not just the history of the military, but the history of Chinese Canadians here in Canada and how long and expansive it is? Right, absolutely. There was a very deliberate choice to make Josiah Chang someone whose family had been in Canada for a long time, because in fact Chinese Canadians or Chinese have been in Canada for a very long time. In the novel, his great grandfather comes for the gold rush in the caribou in the late 19th century. And so as someone who was born in Canada, he's thoroughly Canadian, but of course the society then still sees him as otherwise.

And his name Josiah Chang, those initials are meant to echo Johnny Canuck, who is very much a Canadian figure. And like Johnny Canuck, Josiah is a faller or a lumberjack. And that's just a way of saying, look, this person is thoroughly Canadian, and yet the society still sees him as other. And it's making a deliberate point that he is thoroughly Canadian. And there's a point at which immigrants cease effectively

to be immigrants because they become thoroughly assimilated. And in many ways, it's the society that insists somehow that they are still outsiders. I am curious. How did you end up with the name Josiah? Well, you know, for a long time the character's name was Johnny Chang, but there was just something a little bit too boyish about the name Johnny. And you know, Josiah, it's the name of a king, it's sort of a

more kingly name, a more adult name, but at the same time, he goes by Joe, you know, and it suggests that kind of dual identity he has, more than one identity, and of course, as I mentioned, J.C. is meant to remind people of Johnny Canuck. Okay. All right, so you had mentioned Richard Marr. Mm-hmm.

Understanding that Josiah had some inspirations pulled from Richard Marr. We have some photos of Richard. Tell me a little bit about sort of who he was. This is a lovely headshot there of him. Who was he and why was he sort of the character that sort of inspired this whole tale? Well, Richard Marr was from British Columbia,

like Josiah Chang. And, you know, as I said, Chinese Canadians Richard Mar was from British Columbia, like Zhizai Chang. As I said, Chinese Canadians weren't admitted to the military until, or to the army until 1944, quite late. I love that picture of Richard Mar in front of the Union Jack. Richard Mar, as I mentioned earlier, he served in the Ardennes Offensive, and he was part of the Rhinetrop. He was not actually part of D-Day

and so that's where the fictional element comes in. And Josiah's experience is an amalgam of the exploits of many Chinese Canadians because there were Chinese Canadians who served in the Normandy Campaign. For example, one was Major Frank Lee, he was part of the South Saskatchewan Regiment. He was part of a very ill-fated battle at Foray de la Long.

And it was poorly planned. Casualties were severe. He was a company commander, and at one point he was down to 12 soldiers. But he fought on, rose to the rank of major. There was someone named Douglas Sam, who was a bomber pilot in number six bomber command. He flew many sorties over France and Germany

until he was shot down, at which point he helped the French resistance. So I used Richard Maher's inspiration because he did jump into Germany. He was part of the Ardennes Offensive. But Josiah Chang is kind of an amalgam of the heroics of many Chinese Canadians. Do we have an idea of how many Chinese Canadians

served in that war? That's a good question. Sometimes the historical record is a little bit hazy because sometimes names were not transcribed properly. Sometimes Chinese names got confused because Chinese used last names first. Sometimes the record may have confused people's names, conflated individuals.

But the estimate is somewhere between 500 and 800 Chinese Canadians served during the Second World War. Okay. I want to pull up that last photo that we showed. between 500 and 800 Chinese Canadians served during the Second World War. OK. I want to pull up that last photo that we showed. And this is, of course, Richard, where he's leaning up against a pole. Looks like the barracks behind. There's a sense of pride in that photo.

He's got a smile on his face. Was it a common theme when you were doing research that Chinese Canadian men wanted to go and serve? Well, that's an interesting question because in the Chinese Canadian community at the time, which was predominantly centered in British Columbia, that's where most Chinese Canadians lived, there was a great divide in the community

between whether or not to serve. Some people saw this as a great opportunity to prove loyalty to country, to prove their equalness to others, and thereby gain full citizenship rights. Some people really embraced this opportunity, but other people said, why should we put our lives on the line for a country that doesn't even recognize us fully as human beings? And so there was a great tension in the community.

Some people were very much for, some people were against. So understandably, some people were reluctant to sacrifice their lives for a country that didn't see them in full standing. Your story starts in Vancouver, British Columbia, as you mentioned, where you're from. But Joe makes his journey to Ontario. Why does he decide to go to Toronto? And talk to us a little bit about the challenges of what it was like to enlist. Yeah.

So, anti-Chinese sentiment was greatest in British Columbia. British Columbian government opposed Chinese Canadians being conscripted because they understood that that would give Chinese Canadians the leverage for the franchise. Of course, they were most worried in British Columbia where there was a large Chinese Canadian population. So, Josiah Chang ventures east because he's trying to find a recruiting station where there might be less anti-Chinese sentiment and hopefully be taken in. And that's why he ventures east.

I went to the University of Toronto, so I drew from my own affection for the city. He also ventures to the American South and Fort Benning, Georgia. That's where Canadians went to jump school before Canada built Camp Shiloh in Manitoba. And I happened to go to graduate school in Florida. So I drew on my own experience of the South.

In fact, went up to Fort Benning, Georgia, now called Fort Moore, renamed Fort Moore, to do some research. I also spent significant time in England. And that picture of Richard Marr is from his time in the barracks in England. So even though I've never, of course, had any of these wartime experiences, I did draw from my own experiences of the world to inform the novel. Well, speaking of experiences, you also took inspiration from historical footage and documentaries. We want to play a clip of filmmaker Jari Osborne's father, a World War II veteran, talking about how he felt during that time in Canadian history. Let's have a look.

Did you ever wish you weren't Chinese? I did. I think every one of us did those days. Every one of us wished that we were not Chinese. And we always ask ourselves, why were we born Chinese? Those are the days. It's tough. When did you first feel fully accepted as Canadian?

When I joined the service. When I donned on that uniform. That's the first time you feel like you're a man, you're a human being. Some powerful words there. So those two clips were shown at different times throughout that documentary. Shows how Chinese Canadians felt about racism at the time,

but how they felt when they put that uniform on and what that meant. How did that help inform your character? Yeah, the first clip is painful to watch because obviously it was a difficult experience to be Chinese Canadian. A lot of people felt that kind of self-loathing that results from systemic racism.

And people, many Chinese Canadians felt a sense of shame about being Chinese Canadian. Zhuzai Chang's a little bit different because he's a strong and able person and he is a confident person. He has a lot of self-belief. If anything, that makes his status even more irreconcilable because he believes so much in himself and his ability,

and yet the world around him doesn't seem to recognize that ability. If anything, it becomes even more challenging for a confident person like Josiah. But many Chinese Canadians, this is precisely why they wanted to serve, is because for the first time, it put them on equal footing with other Canadians.

And once other Canadians saw Chinese Canadians in uniform, they no longer saw them as less than. And in the research that I did, everything has suggested that within the military itself, Chinese Canadians felt equal. And generally they weren't, they didn't feel like they were treated differently once they put that uniform on.

In the backdrop of this war, that the identity crisis that happens in Josiah's journey, there's a love story, a beautiful love story, one that is quite painful at some times. But the character, Poppy, is a woman of English descent. And I'm curious, what was the decision behind putting someone like Poppy, who is English descent, not Chinese Canadian, but also a complicated person. It wasn't a very simple character in that.

Tell me a little bit about the reasonings behind that. Sure. Yeah, so obviously the Poppy is synonymous with service. And the poppy has become almost synonymous with Canada itself. And the fact that she's an English-Canadian, obviously she's an individual, but she also represents the country itself and the possibility of reconciliation between different groups, even

love. In that sense, in the largest metaphoric sense, she represents the nation state and the possibilities of reconciliation. Poppy is also the diminutive form of Penelope, and it's hard to think of any soldier returning from war without thinking of the Odyssey. And so she's also, you know, hearkens to that famous work. But unlike the Penelope in the Odyssey, who is only faithful and is a paragon of virtue,

she's much more complicated. So part of what the novel tries to do is ask, you know, are women simply there to be faithful? Or do they have their own desires and needs? And shouldn't that also be considered as well? I am curious, interracial relationships at that time, were they common? Was this something that was, you know, standing out? We talk about, you know, there's lots of scenes where Josiah is walking and gets stares,

but rarely do we see mention of that when Poppy and Josiah are together. I'm curious, was that on purpose or was it a common thing? There are moments when Josiah and Poppy get some looks, and there are times where they feel some tension. There is this one scene, for example, where they're late for the ferry, and they both manage to leap off the dock and catch the back of the ferry on the way to work.

But when they forget themselves and kiss each other, what had been wild applause for them jumping onto the ferry suddenly kind of dies down. Those kinds of interracial relationships were rare and they were generally frowned upon. And it wasn't just a matter of social attitude. I mean, the laws themselves made these kinds of relationships difficult.

And it is, of course, part of what drives Josiah to serve because Poppy, as a British British subject can lose her British citizenship for marrying someone who is not himself British. And so this is part of what motivates him to join the military. After the war, there was better will towards Chinese Canadians and they eventually earned the right to vote and to become active citizens. Right. I want to play a clip.

Here's what another veteran, Douglas Jung, who also went on to become the first Chinese Canadian MP in 1957 had to say. We never won any great military victories, but the victory that we did win far surpassed any military victory because we won a political victory. In other words, we were able to demand from the government that we be recognized and accorded the full privileges and rights of a Canadian citizen. All right. Tell us a little bit about, you touched on this a little bit, but how important was fighting in World War two to the Chinese Canadian commune?

Do you think is sort of the meaning behind suiting up and putting on that uniform? Absolutely So generally speaking, you know Canadians attitude toward those of Chinese descent shifted during the Second World War because China is part of the Allied cause So generally there was more sympathy Compared to say after the First World War where anti-Chinese sentiment was high. But in particular the service of Chinese Canadians, you know, in the Air Force, the Navy, and of course the Army really did help to shift attitudes and paved the way for the Canadian

Citizenship Act of 1947 where not just Chinese veterans, but all Canadians of Chinese descent were granted citizenship in the franchise. I think the service of Chinese Canadians was indispensable to that. And that's part of the reason I wrote this novel, because the rights I enjoy today shouldn't be taken for granted.

The rights we enjoy today, you know, as all of us as Canadians depended on the service of those like Josiah Chang and those in the 1st Canadian Parachute Battalion. And we should remember that. All right, I have to admit it's a beautiful read. The scenes going from war to sort of this love story is quite beautiful.

I do have to ask if this was, has the elements for a movie here. If it was to turn into a movie, do you have an idea of who you would like to play Josiah and who would play Poppy? Oh, that's a great question. You know, I maybe have certain people in mind, but. We'll keep the contracts hush.

I'm not gonna jinx it. Fair enough, all right. I'm not gonna get ahead of myself. Believe it or not. Jack, thank you so much for joining us in studio. It was a fantastic reading and very important story. So thank you. Thanks so much for having me.

It's been a pleasure.