The Agenda with Steve Paikin (Audio) - Lessons from Canada's Journey to Reconciliation

Episode Date: June 20, 2024

As Canada marks National Indigenous Peoples Day, what lessons can be drawn from this country's experience with reconciliation, reckoning with residential schools, and treatment of Indigenous people? For insight, we welcome: Deborah Parker, CEO of The National Native American Boarding School Healing Coalition; Chief Robert Joseph, Ambassador Reconciliation Canada; Kaila Johnston, Director of Education & Public Programming at the National Centre of Truth and Reconciliation at the University of Manitoba; and Karyn Pugliese, editor-in-chief of Canadaland.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Here to discuss, we welcome, on the line from Tulalip Tribes, Washington State, Deborah Parker. She is the CEO of the National Native American Boarding School Healing Coalition. In Vancouver, British Columbia, Chief Robert Joseph, Ambassador, Reconciliation Canada. In Winnipeg, Manitoba, Kayla Johnston, Director of Education and Public Programming at the National Center of Truth and Reconciliation at the University of Manitoba.

And with us here in studio, Karen Pugliese, who's the Editor-in-Chief of Canada Land. And we welcome Karen, you back to our studio here and to our friends in Points Beyond. And with us here in studio, Karen Pugliese, who's the editor-in-chief of Canada Land. And we welcome Karen, you back to our studio here and to our friends in Points Beyond. I want to start by just reading something that Cindy Blackstock, the well-known executive director of First Nations Child and Family Caring Society of Canada, she wrote this in an op-ed for the Toronto Star. The U.S. was the birthplace of the residential school system, but it was Canada that took the first steps towards truth and reconciliation. That's not because of bold government action. It's because courageous residential school survivors sued the Canadian

government and the churches that ran the schools and eventually forced the creation of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. The subsequent TRC report included 94 calls to action, a plan for Canada to learn from the past while addressing contemporary injustices. The U.S. is now looking to that process as a guide. So let's start there. Deborah Parker, is that accurate? Are you, in fact, looking to Canada as an example of what you might want to do in the States? Yes, actually, for years, the National Native American Boarding School Healing Coalition has been meeting with Canadian First Nations and representatives to to learn more about how the TRC was conducted.

And what are some of the learning lessons that we can take here in the United States. But I also had the honor of serving in British Columbia, the Tsleil-Waututh Nation, Squamish and other allied nations on their TRC, Aboriginal Healing Foundation program. Kayla Johnston, if in fact the TRC process in Canada is something that Americans are looking at, what do they need to know about how that went? When it comes to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, as quoted by Cindy Blackstock, it was really the survivors who led the ground and led the way starting from the 1980s onwards as they were coming forward and with that you'll see from the 1980s to when the trc really started to get going in 2010 that's a couple decades of

work that needed to be done with those consultations with survivors with the churches with the government offices and other representatives to really get a sense of how best to address the outstanding litigation but all those other components connected to it as well from the statement gathering piece but also in addition to that the healing funds and i'll say healing for intergenerational survivors is really now coming forward since the close of the truth and reconciliation commission and the wrap-up of some of those other components of the Indian Residential Schools Settlement Agreement. So there's quite a lot of lessons that can be learned in the preparatory phase of doing some of that work. But again, that key piece is being led by

the survivors and having that survivor voice to really identify what's needed when it comes to the U.S. context. Chief Joseph, what would you add to that in terms of what our American friends need to know if they intend to look to our process as an example? I think what would be, oh, greetings, first of all, everyone. I think it would be really important to note that survivors indeed were central to all of the evolution of the truth-telling process. And to that extent, what the PRC became was a conduit for survivors to tell their stories in public to everyone so that all Canadians were able to hear these stories firsthand. Of course, that was really important. But just as important, a few years preceding the Truth Commission,

there was a healing movement across Canada driven by the Aboriginal Healing Foundation. And it existed for a few years and survivors met in healing circles across the country continually. And so before we even got to the forward when they're thinking about truth commissions, to have survivors be able to communicate to each other and to the world their issues, and so that they have an understanding and they're more ready when there actually becomes a formal truth and reconciliation commission. actually becomes a formal Truth and Reconciliation Commission. I'm really happy to say that because of that, here in Canada, the Truth Commission report has had a huge impact. All elements of society and just about everyone knows about the history of residential schools,

Just about everyone knows about the history of residential schools, now understands the history of Aboriginal people, and many are getting on board and thinking about how they're going to engage in reconciliation with Indigenous people in Canada. Going to follow up on that in a second, but first I want to give Karen a chance to weigh in on that first question. What do you think? What can Americans... Oh, I think a few things um actually I'm really glad the chief uh mentioned the Aboriginal Healing Foundation that that base work was so critical before going into a reconciliation process and um what a lot of people don't remember is that there was actually by the time the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in Canada

started, there had been a delay and the Aboriginal Healing Foundation was running out of funding and the government did not renew that through that process. And so it really became a burden of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission to take on health, like mental health care for people who were giving testimony because we'd lost that other piece, which I think was a big miss on the part of government. I think the other thing, just as people have alluded to, is it wasn't like a one-step process. It was pushing and pushing from the survivors. There were individual cases, and then they were allowed to do these class action lawsuits. They pushed the class action lawsuits.

They got a statement of regret, not an apology initially. They got the alternative dispute resolution process, which was very flawed and wasn't properly compensating survivors. And they had to keep pushing. So this was like a process of trial and error over and over again. And really not a very reconciliation-y feeling process

or something that was about reconciliation, ultimately. Reconciliation-y? That's a new... I'm allowed to reinvent words. I think you just did. I'm pretty sure you just did. Okay. Kayla, let me now, as promised, follow it up on what Chief Joseph just had to say. Namely, it's been almost a decade since the TRC concluded its work. And I wonder if you could sort of tell us in your judgment, how many of those 94 calls to action have in fact been implemented?

When it comes to the calls to action, it sort of depends. I use four different sources to keep up to date on the progress. And it's a little bit subjective as to which calls to action have been addressed and which haven't. Right now, Indigenous Watchdogs has 14 have been addressed. But if you look at the types of the calls to action that have been addressed, and this has been a criticism, it's a little bit like the low hanging fruit, and none of the calls to action that require substantial structural changes to our systems like the child welfare system the justice system and the like have been really addressed so the heavier ones that could lead to substantial changes in that relationship between indigenous and non-indigenous peoples haven't been addressed

and that's one of the biggest criticisms that over the past three years since the to Kamloops announcement we haven't seen any real major progress except for the calls to action numbers 15, 80, and 94 have been addressed. So related to Indigenous languages, a statutory day for the National Day for Truth and Reconciliation, and an amendment to the citizenship oath. Since then, it's been a lot of grassroots organizations or community-level progress on the calls to action. Chief Joseph. So I wanted to add that all of us have different indicators for measuring progress in truth and reconciliation, in the truth and reconciliation process

uh one one of the really important indicators should be how survivors have responded to the truth and reconciliation commission in their efforts first of all to reconcile their lives our lives because we up until this point we've we've had a trauma that was deeply hidden and we didn't understand it but now across the country indigenous people are continuing to heal they're proud they're strong they're resilient, they feel free, they're hopeful, and you can't measure that against the 94 calls to action. As important as the 94 calls are to action, we have to make sure that the dialogue continues between survivors, between ourselves, and with the Canadian public. That's so important to do, to maintain the dialogue. That's the only time change happens when we have deep discussion that transforms our ideas, our perspectives,

our hearts, our minds, our souls. This Truth Commission needs to be a deep run at it. It has to have a powerful spiritual element that drives us to continue day after day after day, even sometimes with the disappointments that we have. Karen, I wanted to get your take based on your reporting of how people in the Indigenous world feel either satisfied or frustrated at how much or how little of those TRC recommendations have actually been implemented? Well, you just summed it up so beautifully. That's exactly how people feel. They feel good and bad and frustrated and happy. I mean, it's not just about the, like, it's about the TRC recommendations, but it's broader than that. I mean, I think the first thing is the TRC started very much with residential schools, and it's broader than that. I mean, I think the first thing is the TRC started

very much with residential schools, and it had a very narrow mandate. But the commissioners took a look at one of the phrases in there that said anything out of residential schools that affected Indigenous people. And that's how you get to child welfare. That's how you get to missing and murdered Indigenous women. That's how you get to UN DRIP and Land Back and all these other things that are important. I think two things have happened over the years. One is, as the Chief alluded to, there's been a real, like, awakening of our people,

especially the youth. And so their expectations are so much higher. Like, I used to be considered kind of a radical, and, you know, I'm old and it's boring well no no no but okay you know the kids are are um and i say kids i'm getting old um but the kids their expectations are very high and so even though we're seeing probably like realistic realistically like what's been one of the better relationships with the federal government, despite a couple of land back movements and problems there. But overall, it seems like the chiefs and the governing bodies seem to be getting along pretty well with this government. But the

expectations are just so much more and for change and sooner, sooner, now, now. Deborah Parker, I wanted you to hear those three responses before going to you, because as you embark on this process, I wonder whether what you've heard makes you more confident or more concerned, or whether you're prepared for what undoubtedly will be the travails to come as you embark on your journey on this. What do you think? come as you embark on your journey on this. What do you think? Well, I just want to thank our First Nations relatives for sharing their truth. And I do believe that this should be survivor-centered work. And so here in the United States, that's something that we are working towards to make sure

that boarding school survivors, residential school survivors have the opportunity to help lead this work. And hearing from our First Nations elders and chief, it is so important. And I should say young elder, too. I should say young elder, too. It's so important to hear this journey because we've been trying to bring about truth and healing here in the United States for many years, and it's been difficult. in House Resolution Bill 7227 so that we could create a U.S. Commission on Indian Boarding Schools and learn from those lessons of how difficult it was for residential school survivors to obtain records of where their family members are, where they were buried, where they were sent to, where they were trafficked to. And so that's something that we've been working with

our congressional members. And it's exciting to say that we, last week in Washington, D.C., we just moved forward on the House side. We passed through the Education and Commerce Committee. And so we still have to go to the main floor and then go on to the Senate side and pass the bill. But we look forward to journeying down this road so that we can find those pieces and find out where our relatives are, find out where the records are. We know the government and churches have those records.

So that's kind of our first step is let's find out the truth. And Debra, let me do a quick follow up with you in as much as the Interior Secretary in the Biden administration is, as we would say in Canada, indigenous, as I guess you would say, Native American. And I wonder whether you think that helps the process move along? Oh, absolutely. Having U.S. Secretary Deb Haaland lead the efforts in finding out the truth about the U.S. boarding school era

is absolutely paramount. She's from the Laguna Pueblo. And so her experience and understanding of the boarding school issue has helped lead our efforts across the nation. So we know we feel like we're many years behind Canada in the sense of bringing out this the issue of the better the federal Indian boarding school but we feel with the leadership of Secretary Holland we've made some some greatides. And we're also looking for her second volume

to come out on Indian boarding schools. And we know that our children are also buried across the nation in unmarked graves. So we are really working hard to make sure families find their relatives and that we can bring some healing and some closure to some of those disappearances. Chief Joseph, we Canadians are just sanctimonious enough to think that we are leaders in the world at whatever it is we set our minds to.

And so I wonder if you could tell us whether you agree with the notion that many Canadians will feel that we are sort of ahead of other countries when it comes to reckoning with our past. What do you say? Yeah, I think there's some truth to that. We all respond to these issues in different ways. I think Canada, by consequence, I don't know if this long-term plan has evolved in this process rather well, I would consider, because so many things have changed as a result of apologies, creating a healing foundation, then a truth commission, and then having national hearings where everybody knows the issue. In our country here in Canada, most Canadians probably know about residential schools. And to all of them, there's a twinge in their conscience that says

they should be considering doing something about it or responding to it but i i i absolutely know that when our neighbors to the south begin this process as they have that they're going to succeed that if you stand up and you tell the truth people hear you and all people who live in these countries now know that we need to find a way to do better, to elevate all of ourselves to a place, to places where every child matters, everybody matters, we all belong, and we should live together in peace and harmony. Kayla, you work with other countries in your work. How do we fare compared to others on your scale? When it comes to the NCTR, I'd like to say we are an international hub for countries who are looking to explore truth commissions, but also centers after truth commissions closed. after truth Commission's closed most recently just this week we had two Norwegian visitors Norway had visited us in 2019 also this past two years we've had Ireland Brazil as well as a few other

countries come and visit us we've had about 11 or 12 and a lot of them are wanting to know how did our truth Commission operate and then what was done after the Truth Commission closed what happened to all the materials all of the physical objects all of the statements and the big piece really is ensuring the survivor voice how do we ensure the survivor voice carries forward when it comes to that use of that materials in our collection and really for our Center as an archive it's about the education piece so supporting our educators our researchers and the general public to ensure that this history is never forgotten or repeated so a lot of countries are coming to visit and getting a greater sense and understanding of

how can they learn from our lessons and import them into their own efforts now for the United States because there is the National Native American Boarding School Healing Coalition, which we've worked with on and off for the past couple of years, starting in 2017, I think there is a lot that can be learned and shared from some of our own growing pains that we've had and what they can do to avoid that. And really having NABs established first really sets the piece for that Future Truth Commission to gather those statements and have that security to know that they're going someplace safe to be protected, much like it's protected here at the NCTR in perpetuity. I want to ask Karen Pugliese about something that has happened in greater numbers since the TRC reported, and particularly in the last few years, and that is Ryerson University is no longer Ryerson University. Sir John A. Macdonald Law School at Queen's University is no longer Sir John A. Macdonald Law School.

There have been increasing efforts to change the names of places that many in the Indigenous world find upsetting. And I wonder if there is a sort of consensus in the Indigenous world find upsetting. And I wonder if there is a sort of consensus in the Indigenous world in Canada about the advisability of doing that. You know, it's interesting. There is a bit of a debate that goes on. And I actually, like, long before any of this, there's actually a statue that's not there anymore

that was in Ottawa, and it was on Champlain, and there was a native person kneeling in front of them and the story goes that there was supposed to be a canoe and that's why the native person was kneeling but they never got around to building the canoe because it would cost too much um anyways people considered that offensive even back in the day and they they moved the uh the Indian and placed him in a place with all the sweet grass and stuff and Champlain got to stay there and there was a local photographer uh Jeff Thomas who took this great picture of the native and placed him in a place with all the sweet grass and stuff, and Champlain got to stay there. And there was a local photographer, Jeff Thomas,

who took this great picture of the native in the new spot, saying, why is the Indian the one that has to move? Now, that debate that was happening at the time is the same one I hear now. Is it important to keep these things around in some way and maybe put a plaque and put a reinterpretation on them to show that people used to think this way. You know, like statues of Native people

are often of fantasy Native people. They're not of actual, like there's no statue of Karen. There probably will never be. But you know what I mean. Like there's no statue of our national chiefs or anybody who is like real. Very few of them. Maybe Louis Riel is one of the few

whereas for non-native people they're actually of people anyways pulling these down to what extent it's not that it erases history but it it's interesting on the landscape to be able to go and look at something and say well here's sir john. Macdonald, but here's the way we understand the history now, looking at it from our point of view and looking back. And that's one side of it. And the other side of it is tear them down and put some statues of us up. And where do you fall on that? I think it's, I have mixed feelings about it. Like, I mean, I'm not really an activist. I'm more of a journalist. So I might more like'm not really an activist. I'm more of a journalist, so I might more like to engage with the conversation.

I see the value in both of them, to tell you the truth. But I do think it says something about, I think not doing anything is the problem. Because when you hold people up who are very harmful and you don't say anything about it, it's just sort of like, what do you value in society? And how can you talk about things? Deborah Parker, let me get your view on that, because I think this issue has been back in the news lately, that very famous statue of Abraham Lincoln with an Indigenous person kneeling by him. There's a great debate now about whether that statue can stay or whether it has to

go or be contextualized with a plaque. Obviously, the stars and bars have come down in some state capitals and places in the United States, although certainly there's lots of support still for the old Confederate flag. What's your view on how all that should be handled? Well, I'm definitely an activist at heart. So if it doesn't bring joy and happiness, tear it down. Why keep something that doesn't ignite love and compassion and embrace people who are here today to bring about positive change in this world? And so coming together is so important as a human race. world. And so coming together is so important as a human race. Well, I guess the, okay, you've asked the question and I guess the conventional answer is because if you make all these changes and tear all these statues down, as opposed to leaving them there and contextualizing with a plaque, you deprive people of understanding how people thought back in the day, how their views

have changed and what we're aiming to do better. That's the argument. Well, I mean, I think in those places we can create gardens, we can create places that that bring about happiness and change. That dialogue can still continue. But do we need everyday references to colonizers or to people that hung our children or took our children in federal Indian boarding schools and beat us, who passed policies that contributed to slavery and other ethnic cleansing? So I don't know that I'd want to be reminded of that all the time, but certainly that's a part of history that we can continue to discuss so that we don't continue those behaviors. We must do better today with the resources and information that we do have.

Chief Joseph, do you think there is a consensus in the Indigenous world in Canada about, for example, all of these renamings that have happened so far, and perhaps more interestingly, all of the renamings that have not happened. You know, Wilfrid Laurier brought in a thousand dollar head tax on the Chinese, you know, a century ago, and nobody's, at least not to my knowledge, telling the university they got to change their name or etc., etc. What do you think? Yeah, I think when we hear about or see these symbols, statutes or monuments that if they represent colonialism in a bad way, if they represent hatred and prejudice

and all of that kind of stuff, I think I'm in favor of responding to those issues. I'm not sure if you have to absolutely destroy the symbol or what, but symbols are so powerfully important during times like we're going through right now where people seem to be more interested in their own uniqueness or division and we're more divided than we've ever been before even though we're undergoing the um reconciliation process here in Canada and so it really does take a a lot of thinking and and some mutual dialogue between all of us to try to come up with solutions on how to respond to those historical symbols of harm and hate or whatever.

So it's a process. We're going to get through it one way or the other. And it needs the kind of dialogue that's going on now for those pro and con for us those of us who haven't given it much thought to get a grasp of what it all means and how it impacts us now how it impacts our young people so it's going to be a process that won't be resolved overnight i don't think caleb we've got just about a minute and change to go here. And I wanted to ask you, I asked this next question to a lot of people, and most of them like to dodge the question because it's uncomfortable.

So I'm, and it's about an Ontario issue. And since you're in Manitoba, you can get away with answering it. You won't have any consequences. So here we go. On the south lawn at Queen's Park, there is a statue of Sir Johnny MacDonald that has been boarded up for about the last four years, mostly because the members of the Ontario legislature who are tasked with figuring out what to do with that statue can't come to a consensus, can't come to an agreement on it. So the statue remains boarded up. No one can see it. And it's, you know, it's kind of a monument right now to

indecisiveness. I guess my question for you is, what do you think we should do about that? Love the difficult question. That's why I asked you. My youth, what do we do with those statues or the renaming of places when it's connected to, for my youth, I say, what do we do about our problematic faves? Those who've done very laudable things that we should recognize, but also have these very serious components to it. Here on the Manitoba legislative grounds, we have a statue to the famous five, including Nellie McClung, who is lauded for bringing the

votes to white women in the early 1900s. But we often don't talk about her very serious connection to the eugenics movement and the forced sterilization. So it's kind of a sidestep, not necessarily avoiding answering, but I really like all the answers that have been given so far because it is about community. And the fact that it's still boarded up brings a message. And whether or not it's uncovered or removed, I think it speaks volumes that it's covered up and has that talking point to discuss why is it like that? Why are we covering it up? And what are the discussions that can be had coming out of that? Very similarly, also on the legislative grounds a few years ago, we had the tearing down

of the Queen Victoria statue. And we also had the beheading of another statue. And there were discussions about whether or not it should be returned to the grounds, whether or not it's possible to be fixed, or if it should be moved to a museum in the state that it's in, in order to discuss that evolution or that journey that has taken place when it comes to these laudable figures who have that detrimental component to this history. And again, that learning opportunity. So I don't have a right or wrong answer or a specific answer on what should be done other than continuing discussion. And I like where it's going when it comes to those opportunities on how we can grow from that. Continuing discussion is always a good idea. I knew you'd have a good answer to that question. Deborah Parker, Chief Robert Joseph, Kayla Johnston, Karen Pugliese, I want to thank the four of you for joining us on TVO tonight for a very stimulating conversation. Thanks so much to you all. Thank you. Thanks. The Agenda with Steve Paikin is made possible through generous philanthropic contributions

from viewers like you. Thank you for supporting TVO's journalism.