The Agenda with Steve Paikin (Audio) - Max Kerman: Inside the Creative Mind of Arkells' Frontman

Episode Date: April 26, 2025

Fans of Canadian rock band Arkells might be wondering to themselves how all those songs came together in the first place. Well, wonder no more. Frontman Max Kerman has written a book all about his band and how they bring those songs to life. It's called "Try Hard: Creative Work in Progress".See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Fans of the Hamilton, Ontario rock band Arkells might be wondering how this one-time group of McMaster University students transformed themselves into one of the country's top bands. Well, wonder no more. Frontman Max Kerman has written a book all about his band's journey. It's called Try Hard, Creative Work in Progress, and we're delighted to welcome the guy in the leather jacket who calls people up on a payphone. There's Max Kurman right there. And I stole a few lyrics just to make you feel more welcome. Thank you, I feel very welcome. Do you know what though, I feel very overdressed for this.

Uh-huh. I do, like the suit and tie just does not feel right for this. Well, you, what? Do you mind, can I just get a little more casual? Get a little more casual, please. Let me just, well, let me just. Uh. Uh.

Let me just take this out. Now I feel more at home. Is this all right? A gracious host you are. Well, can I tell you something? Thank you. I just want everybody to know, you didn't give me this. I bought this at one of your concerts.

I was going to say, was it a freebie? No. I bought this at one of your concerts at the Budweiser stage. Oh, thank you. Last summer, which was a fantastic show. So anyway, I feel much better now. This is good. This could be your new look for all the guests.

Probably not. That's what I would suggest. Probably not, but anyway. When people ask you what you do for a living, what do you tell them? So I get this question sometimes if you're on a plane and you're making conversation with the person next to you and they'll ask, oh, what do you do?

And I still feel like stupid for saying, well, I'm a musician. Because I'm like, well, am I really? I have these just ideas and creative cravings all day long and I try to figure out how to make sense of them. So I suppose I'm a musician, but I feel like I'm a person who's part of a community and part of my job is to generate ideas and then pick up the phone and call people and say, how do we figure this out?

And so a lot of the time, it's calling the guys in the band. So I have an idea for a new piece of choreography in the show. Or Tony, our keyboard player, is like, I have a new song. Can I come over? We can record something together. Or we called Mike, our guitarist, like, Mike, we gotta think of some new merch for the rally,

our big festival in Hamilton. And sometimes it's about nothing musical at all. Or sometimes I'm making a TikTok. So it's... It's a long answer. Yeah, so I don't know, I don't have a good answer. But I do feel a little foolish calling myself a musician, because I feel like I'm a...

Well, you shouldn't, you are. Well, yeah, but I feel limited in a a- Well you shouldn't. You are. Well yeah, but I feel limited in a lot of ways. I see real musicians doing things. I'm like, oh, that person really knows what they're doing. But no, I don't know. Tell me this. And this is probably a question that Don Henley

or Glenn Friar got over the years, which is their group is not called The Eagles. It's just called Eagles. And your group is not called The Arkells. It's just Arkells. Just Arkells. Why is that? I don't know if there's a good answer for that.

But I will say it drives our manager Ashley insane. If we are listed as The Arkells on an ad mat, that means the promoter wasn't doing their job looking at the Finder details. It's just Arkells. But if we're having a conversation, you say, oh, I was talking to the guy from The Arkells. That's fine.

Because it's, grammatically speaking, that's OK. Do you want to remind everybody why your group is called that? Well, we used to be called Charlemagne. That was what we started out as at McMaster University. And then we got a direct message on MySpace from another Charlemagne, an indie rock artist from Wisconsin. And he said, if you don't change your name,

I'm going to sue you for everything you're worth. And you were worth nothing at the time anyway. We had $400, so we're like, we can't lose this $400. So we thought we better change our name and when we got signed to our first label, we let them know that we have to change our name and we went with Arkell's, because we lived on Arkell Street, Mike D and I, which is in Westdale, not far from where you grew up.

Yeah, and now that street sign is stolen regularly. Because it's a bit of a keepsake for fans. No kidding. You tell us in the book that your faves growing up were The Beatles and The Temptations, Smokey Robinson. Ever meet any of them? Oh no, I haven't. I feel like that would be a dream though.

Yeah, my dad, he went to university in Detroit at Wayne State University. It was the only place that let him in. But he was a DJ at the local college radio station. And my dad's an old guy, so this was like the 60s. And he carted around those vinyl records for like the next 20 years of his life. And then he met my mom, and those were the records we had around the house.

So I feel like as a student of songwriting, like that's an amazing place to start if you're listening to the Beatles and Motown. What particularly inspired you about their music? Oh, I mean the melodies, you know, and you know, the first movie I ever saw, the first movie I ever remember watching was Help. My dad showed me Help and it's- The Beatles' documentary. Right?

And they look so cool. Their chemistry with each other was like so fun. And the performances in that movie of the songs, I can see each one in my mind. And I don't know, the Beatles are one of those groups. I'm a part of a Beatles group chat with my friends. We're every day we're updating each other with new Beatles news.

And they haven't been a group since 1969. They're like, oh, did you hear about this? So it's, you know, I think those kinds of artists can supply like a lifetime of entertainment and curiosity. Right on. One of the things I gotta hand it to you for is that you really don't spare yourself in the book. You are very self-critical,

and in fact, go through chapter and verse about how you went through three managers in the first three years that the group was together. And you kind of take the blame for the fact that you guys were kind of dickheads for doing that. You want to just sort of explain why that happened? You know, it's so much easier, I think, in life to just blame whoever it is that did

you wrong or, you know, but I find it way more interesting to look inward and go, oh, what have I done differently? You know, what can I learn? And I think every chapter is sort of like, okay, we did something, what did I learn from it? You know, what was a good thing that happened? What was a not so good thing that happened? And how can I move forward in a way that I feel a little bit more enlightened.

And I feel like with the managers that we worked with, each one taught us a lot about different things, but each one wasn't quite the fit. It's sort of like dating where you're like, you know, it's like you could date a number of partners over the years and each one can, you know, offer something different. You can learn something different, but you're still always sort of looking for the one that fits the best. And then we met our managers, Ashley and Chris, and we've been with them ever since. You love them.

Holy smokes. I mean, you go on and on and on. Do I? Yeah, yeah. Oh, Ashley's so wonderful this and Ashley's so wonderful that. She's on the other side of the camera. I know. That's why I'm saying all this.

You've had, I mean, you've had a hell of a good run. Max, good for you guys. Very lucky, very lucky. Well, that's my question. How much of it was due to the fact that you guys worked your butts off to get to where you are versus just, you know, right place, right time, good luck?

I think it's gotta be a bit of both. I think about my good fortune. And it starts in high school. So I went to high school in downtown Toronto. You're from Toronto originally. I'm from, yeah, and I went to Harvard Collegiate and two of my teachers happened to be married to gentlemen school in downtown Toronto. You're from Toronto, originally. Yeah. And I went to Harvard Collegiate. And two of my teachers happened to be married to gentlemen in the music industry.

And because I'm a person who, when I have an idea, I just kind of talk about it loudly, hoping somebody will hear it and maybe offer a hand. I must have been talking about my desire to be in the music business. And one of them said, oh, you know, let me see if I can put you in touch with my husband's work. And then from there, I got introduced to Jack Ross, who was the president of the agency group at the time, which was Canada's biggest booking agency.

And that summer after grade 11, I sat on the floor of his office, and I was filing contracts for Nickelback and Sam Roberts Band and Great Big Sea. And I was going, oh, this is how much people make. Oh, this is what a promoter does. You know, this is, OK, huh. And, this is what a promoter does. Okay, huh. And so I had that experience.

I went to McMaster, I met Nick and Mike the first week of school. And that in itself is very lucky. And they were also into being in a band. And so we got a little bit better. And by the time we got signed at the end of fourth year, it led us back to the agency group. And I started working with Jack Ross.

And Jack is our agent to this day. So there's a lot of things that sort of happen if you're kind of keeping your eyes peeled and you're having conversations with people, you're letting your intentions be known. But I also am very lucky that I happened to go to high school where these teachers were connected to the music business. It's interesting when you refer to the guys in the band,

you never mentioned last names. What is that? Oh, really? Yeah, you just did it as well. Oh, interesting. Yeah, Mike D'Angelo's. I think maybe they each get one last name as they're introduced in the book. And then from there, they're just Mike, Nick, Tim,

and Tony. Do they like a lower profile than you? You know what? I think everybody has a different relationship with social media in this day and age. This was a band in the 70s or 80s, it's like you take your press photo, you do an interview, and that's sort of the extent of it.

I don't think they care at all about having to do the chore that is social media, the chore of getting your announcement out to the world, hoping the algorithm is smiling on you that day when you announce a new song, when you announce a new tour. So I think they're just happy that I have that enthusiasm for it or that I have the energy to do it. I think they're like, yeah, Max, please take care of it.

You have to do it, don't you? Well, it's just part of the job. And I don't resent it. Some people, I think, do resent the era that we're in when it comes to the amount of social media that we have to engage in. And I think for me, and I kind of reckon with this in the book, it's about interacting with it authentically. If I started doing the thing that every 18-year-old's doing,

it's like, I guess I got to learn to dance today, because everyone on TikTok is dancing today. That wouldn't feel like me. But if you can use it as a storytelling medium and just be yourself, then you can kind of enjoy it. And that's where I'm at with it now. We're gonna show a clip. This is from a show about six years ago.

There was a fairly special guest who was playing with you. Sheldon, if you would, the clip, please. Give it up for the head coach of the Toronto Rappers, Nick Nurse, everybody. And now I'm wondering if your love's still strong. Ooh, baby, here I am. I see you're believing I'm yours. How cool was that? It was so cool. OK, question one.

Can the guy actually play? Oh, yeah, he can play. He can play. He can play. How did that come together, you got the coach of the Raptors out there with you on stage? OK. Where do I begin?

The story actually begins in 1999, 20 years. That's a while ago. 20 years before that. How did that come together, you got the coach of the Raptors out there with you on stage? OK. Where do I begin? The story actually begins in 1999. 20 years. That's a while ago. 20 years before that happened. So do we have a minute for the story? Fire away. OK.

So my grade seven teacher, Miss Jane, she said, interview somebody in the community that has a job you like that you might want one day. So most of the kids interviewed like the fireman or the dentist or whatever. I picked up the phone book, I went to the back, and I called the front office of the Toronto Raptors because I wanted to meet the general manager of the team

because I thought that's a job I could, I love Vince Carter, it's like, who's the guy who drafted Vince Carter? So I get put through to a secretary and I said, hello, is Mr. Glenn Grunwald there? She arranged an interview with Glenn. And then I got to meet Glenn and I got to go down to the Air Candice Center, they had just opened, and it was this amazing experience.

And I was like, oh, this is so interesting. I just, on a lark, tried it, and it worked. And I've loved basketball. Basketball is a great reprieve for me in my life, from being on stage. Anyway, the Raptors won the championship. It was one of the greatest three months of my life. I went to some of the games. The euphoria was like nothing else.

We had a show booked at Bud Stage the week after the Raptors won the championship. And I noticed that the coach of the team was always carrying around a guitar with them at every game. And this is unusual. There's no precedent for a head coach of a professional sports team to be like looking like he was going to an open mic event, right? So I just did the same thing that I did 20

years before. I just kind of called the Raptors and I said, can I speak to Mr. Nick Nurse? And one thing led to another and he said, okay, I'll come to the gig. And he had never played on stage before. And when we were doing soundcheck, he was like, this is more nerve racking than game six of the finals in Golden State. You say that in the book. How can that be? Well, I mean, it was out of his comfort zone.

But what I love about Nick, and we've become great, great friends ever since. We saw him a couple weeks ago when he was in town, is he was a tryhard. That guy is not afraid to put himself out there, to meet new people, to experience new things, to try new things. You know, like, he started to learn how to play guitar

at the age of 49. And now he plays every day. He brings a keyboard with him on the road and it's set up in his hotel room, and he practices every day. Well, he's now the head coach of the Philadelphia 76ers, which means he's having no fun at all at basketball. So I hope he's having a good time on the guitar.

He is. It's been a trying season. But he is playing every day. Okay, here we go here. Should we do a quote from the book? Sure. Sheldon, bring this up. I'll read this out loud for those listening on podcasts. You write, I bet if you were to ask people all the things they liked about a show a few

weeks after it, most would be hard pressed to identify the specific details that stood out. They would, however, remember the feeling it left with them. The feeling is the thing that lasts. Okay, so you're going for the feeling that lasts. But you're doing a show that you've pretty much orchestrated almost everything that's gonna happen. How do those two things come together?

Well, I think for, I can speak to how we feel about our band and the way we put on shows, is that we want it to be very prepared. And the more prepared we are, the better time we have on stage. So if we know exactly what we do, what we're doing the first step on the stage, great. If we know exactly how we're transitioning

from one song to the next, great. If we know what perfect cover to play, great. If we know what guest appearance should happen three quarters of the way through, great. The more we are prepared, the more fun we're having, and the more smiles there are, the more loose we feel on stage, and all of that permeates the crowd. Because the crowd can tell when a band feels prepared.

A crowd can tell when a band feels very in control, and then that allows the band to have a great time, and that allows the crowd to have a great time. So I feel like when you, and I'll use, and I talk a lot about Bruce Springsteen in the book, because Springsteen is the expert at that. It's like, the reason why he can smile as big as he does, and be silly in the way that he does, is he is prepared.

The band, the East Street band is more prepared than any rock band in the history of bands. And I think that amount of preparation comes through and that's what leaves the crowd feeling so good. So, okay, let me ask you about the concert I went to last summer at the Bud Stage in Toronto. There are moments in that show where I'm thinking to myself, oh my goodness, this is absolutely authentically original.

It's happening for the first time. They're clearly ad-libbing this. But probably you guys have been workshopping all of those things to make it look that way, but it's not really that. Is that right? I'd say for the most part, we have a pretty good feel for how things ought to go throughout the night.

There is the, what night were you there? Friday or Saturday, do you remember? Okay, the Friday night show though, and I talk about this in the book, Tony, our keyboard player, while he was about to take a big keyboard solo, his keyboard stopped working. And- Oh, that was, okay, I was there that night.

Okay, you were there that night. That was not planned. That was not planned, which added to the magic of it too. But I always feel that- You had a lot of tap dancing to do at that moment. Yeah, we were there that night. That was not planned. That was not planned. Which added to the magic of it too. But I always feel that. You had a lot of tap dancing to do at that moment. Yeah, we were sort of like, how is this thing, and then eventually the keyboard got fixed and the crowd went nuts.

Yes. Blastin' in the solo. And yeah, you know, I feel like if you're prepared, when something goes wrong, it matters less. Because you know that you have 19 more, you know, tricks up your sleeve that you can lean on. Now does somebody get H-E double hockey sticks after the show's over for the fact that the piano

crapped out halfway through the show? No, it was Tony's fault. Tony insisted on using that piano. His tech was like, I don't think that piano's gonna hold up for the weekend. He's like, I like this one. It was Tony's fault. But all the stuff, I mean there are moments in the show

where you just, people don't see it coming. You just walk out into the crowd and people are all over you. And it looks very spontaneous, but it's not. No, I have a sense of the beats I wanna hit in the show. And we work hard on it, and it's like, it doesn't happen overnight. It's like you're building upon it with every show.

And you learn something new in every show, too. That's another thing. I think another part of my job is just keep my eyes peeled out that something's happening in the crowd. I'll say this, but in 2015, I looked out in the crowd in Edmonton, and it was this song, My Heart's Always Yours, this emotional love song, and I saw a group of eight guys, arm and arm,

swaying side to side during the song. I was like, oh, there's something so interesting. It's like this love song, but it's eight friends, eight buddies that are having this moment together. So I said, all right, everybody in the crowd, do what they're doing. And then eventually, the entire crowd started doing it. And that has become a bit of the show ever since.

Every time we play that song, we ask the crowd to do that. And that is only happening because I happened to see that in the crowd in Edmonton 10 years ago. Very cool. OK, ready for a high-tight fastball? Because I know you say in the book that you guys are an equal partnership

and that you all make decisions very democratically, et cetera, et cetera. But Max, this just in. You're the front man. You're the lead singer. You're the guy who's doing all the talking to the crowd. So are you like the prime minister of this cabinet? I mean, you're the first among equals?

Yeah, no, I mean, there's obviously a lot of sort of like give and take and, you know, I try to be a good listener and try to get a feel for what everybody wants to do in the band, that's sort of my job. But I do think there's, I hope at least, that like each member of the band feels some agency over the thing they're really passionate about. So Mike is an amazing, brilliant designer.

He makes all of our merch, he makes all of our album designs. I'm not gonna go, hey Mike, what if we change the green to a blue? I'm not gonna do that, because that's Mike's domain. Mike knows way more about that. Same thing with our live show.

Anthony is our musical director. He really is in control of a lot of the programming that happens on stage with us. And I'm not going to go like, hey, Anthony, open up your Pro Tools session and show me what you're doing. I'm not going to do that. So this is sort of like, I'd say, no different than any work environment.

It's just like, you kind of hope that the person feels in control of their duty. And I feel like as a band, it's not perfect, but that's what I strive to do. But you must have artistic differences somewhere along the way, and how do you resolve those without pulling rank? No, it's a good question.

I think we all have a pretty good measured perspective because there's so many decisions that have to be made. It's like we're in the middle of listening to mixes right now of new material. And it's like could the drums be a little louder yes or no? And you can work yourself up about this part's bothering me. But I feel like because we've been doing it long enough,

it's like there's very few hills that anybody wants to die on because a lot of the things you kind of forget within two days anyway. You're like oh that was the thing I was annoyed about. And we have enough experience to know that, you know? So I feel like, and also I feel like everybody's pretty, I think, trusting of each other's intentions. Everybody, I think, feels grateful for the job

and wants to keep it feeling healthy and good. And I think that that allows for those sort of creative conversations to happen in a better way. Let me ask about songwriting. Because I think once upon a time, you guys were all very determined to write your own stuff and you were very much opposed to writing with kind of industry producers.

What's that other, Max's name from Sweden? Max Martin. Max Martin, right. The guy who's written how many thousands of hits? I mean, he's just, he's on everything. Have you kind of beveled your edges on that now? Uh-huh. Yeah, you know, I think so much of any job is evolving, you know, and I think if you

did the same thing every time and you're only kind of listening to your own instincts and you weren't taking in any new information, you wouldn't get better. And in songwriting, the first three records, it was sort of the band writing songs, but own instincts and you weren't taking in any new information, you wouldn't get better. In songwriting, the first three records, it was sort of the band writing songs. But when we got to the fourth one, I'd been encouraged, like, oh, is there anybody else you want to work with? And I was like, oh, it feels like against the rules if you're in a rock band. Maybe that's for pop artists, maybe that's for artists that are not in indie rock band.

But I ended up meeting some great songwriters in LA. And on the first day, I learned a bunch of things that I wouldn't have known otherwise that have stuck with me. So it's sort of like just professional development. I feel like we all need some kind of professional development. And I think bands become stale if they only

are interacting with each other, like day in, day out. I think it's actually good to have some perspective by working with people outside of your core group. Where have you not played that you still wanna play? Mm, ooh, I love to play in Mexico. Or, yeah, we haven't played, like, or Brazil. Yeah, somewhere where we could do shows in the winter.

You've played Korea. We have played Korea, yeah. Olympics. Yeah. That was cool. You've played Korea. We have played Korea. Olympics. That was cool. It was very cool. They brought you over there. Spontaneous moment. Team Canada was using our song, Knocking at the Door,

as their like, medal ceremony song. And we didn't know they were doing it. Someone just tweeted about it. And then I tweeted back, well, what if we just come over and play the song for real? And then Team Canada said, are you serious? And I said, are you serious? And then our Canada said, well, what if we just come over and play the song for real? And then Team Candice said, are you serious? And I said, are you serious? And then our Candice said, are you serious?

And then we were all serious. And then we headed over there like five days later. Cool. We got a few minutes left here and we have to talk about what's going on on our continent right now because it's... Okay, you've played shows in the United States, obviously. You are a Canadian band.

How are you kind of coming to terms with the fact that our former best friends in this world can't stand us these days? It is an eerie time. It is a strange time, you know? Like, sometimes you think about, you know, saying something derogatory about Elon Musk or something, and then you wonder,

it's like, if I go to the border, are they gonna look at our Instagram and see that? And they might, you've been hearing these stories. So it's really unfortunate. Yeah, I don't quite know what to make of it, but each day it gets a little darker. The public down there doesn't seem to dislike us. It's the president who seems to dislike us.

Do you make the distinction? Yeah, I mean, so we signed up to record in LA in February. But we made the decision back in like October or something like that. And so by the time we got down there, the wildfires had happened and then the terror stuff started happening. But I can tell you that all the Americans that we knew down there were just very apologetic about the entire thing. And then it was very satisfying because I was down there when Canada played USA in the Four Nations Cup and and I was watching at a sports bar and we won and that was great. Did you rub it in? No. Trudeau rubbed it in. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Trudeau said, can't take our country, can't take our game.

Yeah, that was all right. Okay, last question. You know, this is a sort of a moment that every group that gets successful has to think about. Do we stay here in Canada? Do we remain, you know, tragically hip-style Canadian? Or do we move to the States sometime and, you know and indulge in the reality of trying to get big down there Oh interesting. Yeah, I mean I feel like I

used to Play that game where you sort of like compare yourself to other acts and where were they on their third album or what kind of venues Were they playing when they were my age or whatever that is? But then I've realized that everybody's career and business is its unique thing. Every, everything lives in its own context. You know, it's like even, like, you know, the hip came out at a certain time in the 1990s

and like when radio was king and rock music was still king, you know, and you know, if you're a rock band today, the landscape is much different. It's like the radio doesn't exist. It's like rock and roll music takes up a tiny share of the marketplace compared to what it used to. So knowing that, I think the only thing you can do, and this is sort of what I get to in the book,

is you just have to kind of do what feels right on a daily basis, and you have to, and that's why finishing a book, it's like how do you finish a book? What's the last sentence in a book? And I kind of realized at some point, I was like the last word should be today. Because the only thing that matters is today

and what you do today. Yeah, pull it up. Now I'm checking. Read the last line. Now the last line of the book are the acknowledgments. Not acknowledgements. Oh no, okay, today. What's the last line?

They are only there to provide meaning and context for what you do today. So that's all you can do. You know what I'm looking for? I'm looking for the people's champ. I'm looking for the people's champ. We gotta get you on stage. That's you, man.

You are the people's champ. Max Kerman, the book is called Try Hard Creative Work in Progress from the Front Man of Arkells. Not the Arkells, just Arkells. Max, great to see you again. Thanks for coming in. Thank you for having me.

This is a real treat. For me too. Thank you.