The Agenda with Steve Paikin (Audio) - Michael Coren: From Conservative Darling to Progressive Priest

Episode Date: October 23, 2024

Has there ever been a more intriguing personal journey by a Canadian journalist than Michael Coren's? He's gone from conservative provocateur to staunch Catholic to Anglican priest with a giant heart. Coren has written a lot of books, but his newest is called, "Heaping Coals: From Media Firebrand to Anglican Priest." And he joins Steve Paikin to discuss his journey and more.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Has there ever been a more intriguing personal journey by a Canadian journalist than Michael Corrin's? Once a conservative provocateur? Actually no, let's call him what he often was. A pain in the ass. To staunch Catholic to Anglican priest with a giant heart for those among us who are different from the majority. Michael has written a lot of books over the years, but his newest is about him.

It's called Heapinges, from media firebrand to Anglican priest, and it brings Michael Corrin back to our studio, for which we are grateful. It's great to see you again, my friend, how you doing? Great, but that's Father Pain in the Ass. Excuse me. Get it right. Reverend Father Pain in the Ass, very good.

This is a book about your life, so I want to go back to the early days. You growing up in England, you're at a friend's home, your friend's father screams at your friend to get you out of the house. What did he yell? Well, just to give background, I just met this kid in the park. Innocent days, we were playing soccer together, and he said, want to come back to my house for a cup of tea or something like that.

And so he didn't know me and then the father came in and started screaming, I wouldn't swear, but is he an effing Jew? And I sort of remember that the kids have, he didn't know, I don't believe me what a Jew was and then the father, he is, isn't he? Get him out of here. And I left. And I suppose I should have registered. It didn't really click. And as I said in the book, I should have said to him, only half could at least stay for lunch. But I didn't tell my dad, who was quite a physical man.

Your father was Jewish. Your mother was not. Exactly. And my dad was a boxer and champion in the RAF. If I told my dad, I know he would have gone around there and reasoned with this man. Let's put it that way. Reasoned with him.

But I didn't. And I didn't even think about it. But years later, and it's not that it's trauma, I just thought, my golly. And I didn't meet anti-Semitism very often. I lived in an area, an annex of East London, which was quite a big Jewish community. It's a minority, but big enough.

We got along, generally. But that was some old ghost, an old fascist, and this poor kid. This poor kid you ran into many years after the fact. And you had kind of an interesting rendezvous. Tell us about that. It was an airport departure lounge. And he was looking at me. And I was looking.

I mean, I had hair back then then so I've changed quite a lot. But I vaguely recognised him and we approached each other. He said, do you remember? I said, I do actually. He said to me, I didn't know what a Jew was. I didn't know what he was saying to me. He said, but I do now because I think he said, I am one. I married a Jewish girl and I converted. And we didn't exchange details.

I haven't seen him since then, but it was a remarkable story. And parents can do terrible things to their children emotionally. You know, Tom Sharp, the great comic writer, British writer, he died. But his father was a paid up member of the Fascist Party in Britain. I think he was a Nazi.

But Tom Sharp said, I just thought it was all nonsense and rubbish. And I totally rejected it. And obviously, in this case, this boy did as well. Another day, a Jewish kid at your school is getting picked on. And he decides to rear back and slug his tormentor right in the face. And the bully backs off.

The lesson one might take from that is peace through strength. Is that the lesson you want to impart? Because you tell that story in the book. Actually that was a third party. There was a guy there who shouted out, oh you bloody Jew or something like that. I'm not going to say his name but I remember the name of the guy. He was always larger than everybody else, more mature, and I think reached puberty

long before anybody else. And it was like slow motion. He looked, and he just went over. And you don't see this at school level. He punched this kid who just seemed, I think he was unconscious. Certainly, he seemed to be lying on the floor, completely out of it.

But I don't, to make it seem as though I was raised in a hotbed of anti-Semitism, it was very, very unusual. I think that's why I remember those cases where it was an issue. And I didn't feel ambiguous on what side am I. I mean, I knew being half Jewish was enough. I qualified. But that's a long way from turning the other cheek.

Yeah, I hadn't seen the light of the gospel at that point. Well, okay, let's touch on that because as your life continues in the United Kingdom and then eventually over to Canada, you start getting a lot of profile as a guy who knows how to write. And you still say, though, that even though you you were gaining this good reputation, this great reputation as a solid writer, you felt something was missing. Did you have any idea back then what was missing? No, that's a very good question. No, I didn't.

I've never been content. I've been most content the past 10 years, but I've always admired people who are content. My oldest friend, Steve, the best man in our wedding, saw him just a few weeks ago in the UK, has always seemed to be content and I wasn't. And so I don't think it's as sophisticated as I knew faith was missing. I just knew something was missing. I'd become a Catholic in Britain in 24 years old or so. But it was more an intellectual conversion, which is not to criticise Catholicism. But for me, I don't think it was deeply spiritual.

So no, there was, is there a God-shaped vacuum in all of us? I don't know. Maybe we're just hungry. But for me, I knew there was something that wasn't quite there. You once interviewed Anthony Hopkins, the great actor, and you asked him if he'd ever been in anything that he was really proud of.

Do you remember his response? No, no, I asked him if there was ever been in anything that he was really proud of. Do you remember his response? No, no. I asked him if there was anything he'd been ashamed of. We had lunch and it was lovely. I also asked him, he's an alcoholic and he's been driving many years, and I said, what's it like not drinking anymore? He's a lovely man.

He said, instead of passing out, I go to sleep. And instead of coming to, I wake up. And then I said, have you ever done anything you're not proud of, you're ashamed of? And he said, well, no, I'm an actor. And so what I, oh no, I tell a lie. Hollywood Wives, total bloody rubbish, just for the money. That's exactly right.

Good for him. Okay, here's an excerpt from the book. Sheldon, you want to bring this up? And I'll read along for those listening on podcast. The night of my baptism, you're right, Michael, I shook like a frightened child. I was in my early 20s, a grown man, but I felt so young and so weirdly vulnerable.

I knelt in front of the huge, beautiful altar and felt something I could never then and can't now properly put into words, the gentle but powerful touch of Jesus, the reassuring coat of certainty put around my shoulders, a relationship with God dressing my naked soul. It was the first time I'd felt what I'm sure was the Holy Spirit. Tell us more about, first of all, when did that happen?

And tell us more about how you experienced it. That was in my mid-twenties. And what was interesting was it didn't stick, if you like, which is down to me. That's my failure. But when I was received, I was baptized and confirmed on the same night, because I hadn't been baptized as a child. And it was, as I mentioned, an intellectual conversion.

But later on, I felt something that I couldn't explain. I'm a pretty rational person. And I couldn't explain what was happening to me. And I remember feeling as though I had to go out on the street and run up to people and say, you've got to believe. You've got to understand. I didn't. But it was like being bathed, warm water, reassurance,

and being held. I felt that for some days. But you have to continue the relationship. It is a relationship. It's like a marriage. If you just go your separate ways and never have any contact, the marriage ain't going to last. And by prayer and by listening and reading and reaching out, you have to have a relationship with

God. Any religion would tell you that. Certainly I can only speak as a Christian. It's essential. I didn't do the work. I thought, well, that's good. I thought really good now. Just get on with my life.

And it's not that you lose the conversion, but you lose the faith relationship. You are a journalist, or you were a journalist. I don't know. Do you still consider yourself one? Yeah. I mean, I write for the British press, I'm more than I ever did when I lived there in fact. Okay, so you are a journalist and the first thing they tell you in journalism is when something happens check it out. Don't take anything on faith, check it out. Your mother tells you

she loves you, don't take it on faith, check it out. Why did you not distrust immediately that which you were experiencing? I think I did in a way. I questioned it. I've always been a cynic. I have to watch that in myself because I'm a strange combination. On the one hand I cry, the kids will make fun of me, dad's gonna cry any moment. I mean I cry at all sorts of movies and I cry when Tottenham win and I mean I'm an emotional person. But on the other hand I am quite cynical. I think that's a mother-father influence on me. And I did, and I probably did allow in fact the cynicism to dominate the beauty of the moment.

What is really going on? Oh Mike, you've been eating well, you've been exercising. I mean it's just that it's a physical emotional reaction to a momentous event. It's not deeper than that. Those things always creep in to any religious person. You have to work to push them out, and you have to arm yourself with arguments, internal arguments against them, and I don't think I did.

You eventually moved to Canada, you settled in Toronto, you meet a woman who becomes your wife, is still your wife. Well, that's why I came. For her, for love. And your father doesn't come to the wedding. Why not? You know, I haven't thought about this in a while. I came here in 86 to give a lecture at U of T.

And this beautiful woman came up to me at the party at the end of the conference and said, you are amazing. And thinking this may never happen again, I married her. I was right it hasn't happened again and I we got married over here in a Catholic Church. My mum was there and my dad said he couldn't in fact it was more visceral than that he he said if I saw my son married in the Catholic Church I think I'd be physically sick and that made me very upset and we had an argument and he was a working-class man from Tottenham, Hackney. Taxi driver.

Taxi driver. He hated no one. He wasn't religious. It was such a break. There was one thing, I mean he loved my wife, his daughter-in-law. When we went over, I remember he cut out all the times of midnight mass that we could attend. I think it was just that the physical reality of seeing this break with everything. His parents were immigrants from Eastern Europe and Russia. And I'm ashamed, actually, that I was angry with him.

It was my wife who said try and understand and you... empathy, if I could pray for anything for the world it will be empathy, feel what other people are feeling and at the time though I did I reacted with anger and I apologized to him and he apologized to me but look we don't go around being perfect. That's not how we operate. What we should do is go around saying, I was wrong, I'm sorry for that. And if we can, forgiveness, lack of forgiveness

is destroying us. If we can forgive and we can understand and can empathize, we will develop and mature as people. Again, at this time, you are becoming well known as a kind of a conservative, firebrand, fire breathing provocateur. Or to use the earlier phrase, pain in the ass. Well, okay.

Was this a brand that you sought to create for yourself? Not really. Well, it wasn't affectation. I never said, I don't believe this, but I'm gonna say it because I want to have a certain profile. But where did it come from? Because it wasn't the way I was raised and it wasn't the way I had been. I was embracing conservative teachings in the Catholic Church.

There are many Catholics who are very progressive and liberal. I looked to authority and the magisterium and that enforced my social conservatism. But I wasn't right-wing on every issue. I was against the death penalty. I had Palestinian leaders on my radio and TV show when they weren't given any room in media, really, pro-welfare state, pro-socialized medicine, but on moral issues, sexuality and abortion,

I was very conservative. Here's something you're not going to want me to play, so we're going to play it. Oh Lord. This is you on this program 13 years ago, criticizing our mostly Catholic prime ministers for not being Catholic enough. Sheldon, roll it please.

Most of the prime ministers of this country have been Catholic. In a way, in a way. In a way you say. In a way, This is a problem because Jean Chrétien was very, very anti-Catholic. Dan Mattei, who recently lost his seat in the election, Dan, allegedly, I think this happened,

went up to Chrétien face to face and said, why do you hate the church? Why do you hate the church? Paul Martin had more of a sympathy for the church, but he hid it very well. Trudeau was a playing Catholic. Turno, there's more Catholicism there, and maybe a bit more with Mulroney, but they haven't ruled as Catholics. It's one thing to be a Roman Catholic.

But are they supposed to? Yes, they are. They're supposed to rule as Catholics? They're meant to be Catholic in everything they do. I mean, if you said to your wife, look, I do love you at home, but I can have an affair outside, it wouldn't be much of a marriage. You're a Catholic, you're a Catholic, you're a Catholic. Okay.

Oy vey. As they say in the scriptures, oy vey. What do you think when you see that guy? Wanna punch him. No, I would turn the other cheek. Honestly, Steve, there's an arrogance there that appalls me. It's not that what I said was wrong, it's there is such an overconfidence

in believing what I said was right. I believe certain things today, but my golly, I'm open to other points of view. And part of that was not inaccurate, but I cringe. I mean, I've spent almost 11 years now trying to put right damage on my cause. Far worse than that, by the way, because there

I'm criticizing powerful people who can take care of themselves. But it's been a difficult decade, not now, but in the early years. And I was roundly attacked by my former allies and so on. But I would really emphasise this. It's not just that what I said was wrong. There was such overconfidence that everything I believed, even the title of the book, Why Catholics Are Right,

by the way, if I could sell as many copies of these books as of that, I'd be a happy man, but that's beside the point. Because certainty does sell. And ambiguity and nuance, it's more difficult. And what is really being said here. But what I realised, and it was only a couple of years after that really... And when I say Christianity, this is not to exclude other people. But faith is a dialogue. You have to have a conversation with yourself and with God about what is really going on.

I believe the Word of God is not the Bible. The word of God is Jesus. And we then read the Bible through interpretation, through the prism of intelligence and life experience and come to understand things. I'm changed all the time by the people I meet. And at that point I wasn't prepared to listen to other opinions and other voices. Do you remember the moment when that guy became less arrogant, became more empathetic, became more willing to listen to other opinions? It wasn't overnight. It was gradual. And the issue that really changed it was the issue of equal marriage, gay marriage and full inclusion and acceptance of gay people. That was through friendships with particularly gay Christian men who remained dear dear friends. I was speaking to one actually just yesterday in the UK.

I began to rethink and challenge myself which wasn't easy because I was in a very comfortable position. What always amused me is some of the attacks are, well he did all this just for money. I think to myself, if only you knew because I was speaking all over North America all the time. I had columns in all dozens of Catholic publications. The book was selling everywhere. There was this persona of the conservative Catholic person on TV and radio. It wasn't so much that that worried me. It was my friendships and personal relationships, close relationships that ended.

People who turned on me or people who just said you betrayed us. But it was gradual. The door was opened, so I then pushed the door, I met more, I encountered more. And then when I spoke out a little bit, just softening my opinions, the attacks on me, or both the love that was thrown at me and the hatred that was spewed at me, made me realize there's a lot further to go. I have an example of it right here. Sheldon, board two if you would please.

Here you go in your book, Keeping Coles. There were accusations that I was a child abuser and an adulterer, a thief and a fraud, and that my change of heart was all for the money. The latter was particularly odd in that my professional career would largely evaporate in the coming months. I'd lose five regular newspaper columns, 14 speech opportunities, a book contract, two

radio shows, and a television hosting position. There is none so angry as a homophobe scorn." Good line. Did you anticipate the backlash? Yes and no. I knew there'd be a reaction. We were chatting before the show. The Catholic Register counseled my column. Fully understandable.

If you leave the Catholic Church, even if they wanted me to stay, people would write in and say, how could you have him writing here? But it was the extent of it. Almost everybody seemed to say, no, you can't be here anymore. People I thought were reasonable people,

because my faith had strengthened, if anything. I'd moved over to the Anglican Church. But there were non-Catholic publications and media platforms that said, you're gone. We can't use you anymore. And which is why I will always be so grateful to the Toronto Star, who actually someone wrote to me and said, let's try out a column.

If people revolt and say, Michael Cornyn in the Toronto Star, that was try out a column. If people revolt and say, Michael Carrot in the Toronto stuff, that was many years ago now. But it was shocking, the extent of it. And I did sit down at one point and think to myself, well, what have you done here? Because you do have a family. And how are you going to pay the bills?

And maybe I was irresponsible. And I couldn't have done otherwise. I had to do, I mean, I'd been called to do something. But I mean, I restored things. It took a long while. But it did hurt. People I'd known for many years who'd just say to me, you're gone.

We'll never use you again. End. Someone recommended you become an Anglican priest. And your initial reaction, I gather, was to say, can't do that, people will think I've lost my mind. Was that in fact the reaction you got when you decided to go down that path? There were a few people who said to me, why don't you become a priest?

Because I became an Anglican and a couple of years later, I mean, there were several people and I said I would be... No, absolutely not. My career was starting to build up again and it just didn't interest me in any way. I didn't think I'd be suited. But there are things I don't want to talk about on TV but on a personal level it was actually very difficult in some ways going to seminary. It put a lot of strain on me. And even for three years at Trinity College, there were times when I thought, I'm not sure

if I can continue with this. I'm absolutely delighted that I have done. And it's all worked out wonderfully well. I mentioned earlier my oldest friend, Steve, who was raised, well he wasn't really raised Anglican, but Church of England. I never wear the collar when I'm with him because he just, what? What? I just don't get it. I mean he just, and I don't want to make him feel uncomfortable in any way but he just does not get. Many other people though, friends, were delighted. Absolutely did. I mean I've been amazed at how many people,

almost vicariously. They like the fact that Michael's become a priest. I like that because, I don't know, it does something for them. They feel somehow attached to a deity. I'm not really sure. But yeah, it's been both wonderful and very bad as well. But more in the past, not now. As we sit here taping this discussion, it is the, holy cow, it is the 53rd anniversary of Bill Davis' first majority government. It is the 49th anniversary of Carlton Fisk's fantastic 12th inning home run in game six of the 1975 World Series. And it is the fifth anniversary of your having been ordained as an Anglican priest. As a deacon.

As a deacon. Yeah, you're ordained, so you're a deacon first. That's the big one. You're ordained. And after that, unless you do something appallingly bad, your priest did, and that was a couple of years later. But the ordination is the big one. So you're in good company on this anniversary.

Apparently so. With Bill Davis and Carlton Fisk. And I'm going to pretend I understand baseball now and say, yeah, brilliant. The question I have for you though is, what would your Jewish taxi driving father think about this latest development in your life? Phil Corran, what would he think?

I like to think, one of the hardest parts of the book was writing about my parents. I think he'd be very proud. Is that just me saying that? No, I do think he'd be proud because I saw him evolve as a person as well. I don't think I'm saying that just to make me feel good about myself. Steve, I know at my best I do good. I help people. He was a good man. He was an emotional, loud man, but he was a good man.

And I think he would have seen the goodness I aspire to, and he would be proud of me. Are you always completely comfortable wearing that collar in public? Mostly I try to represent. And the conversations that develop are extraordinary. You'd be amazed how many people will come up and say, I'd to represent. The conversations that develop are extraordinary. You'd be amazed how many people will come up and say, there's a lot of indifference, occasional hostility, not bad,

just sort of looking as though, what's that? But it's almost always positive. It's important that Clogee don't have a wonderful reputation, often deserved. It's important that I say say this is who I am. I remember being in England for the World Cup a couple of years ago and I went to the pub to watch a game and it was amazing when people look. And I thought, oh you know what, this probably isn't very fair

because they'll think they can't swear. So I think I took it off for one of the games anyway. But yeah, I do. For those who are not necessarily up on their Romans in the New Testament, we should explain the title of your book, Heeping Coles. What is that a reference to? Which is not my title. I had a pretty bad title actually,

but it was someone at the publisher who suggested it. And I try, and I think I do quite well in this, I don't respond rudely to attacks. I block people on social media, I've blocked many people. You're the only guy I know, in fact, on X, who turns the other cheek. People say the worst things about you, and you are very cheery in response.

Well, before you think I'm too wonderful, if you don't get angry and don't seem to be hurt, it drives them crazy. So that's the best response. But heaping coals in scripture, when people attack you, respond with love and kindness. Apart from being the Christian thing to do, you will heap coals on them.

I mean, Twitter X is in very bad shape, but I still have quite a big following there. And I have to, as a priest, use it for the positive. And when people attack me, sometimes I'll mock a little bit in a gentle way. But if I respond angrily, I am really failing. To wear the collar, and there's a photo of me in a collar, you've got to do the job.

You've got to walk the walk. So yes, I try to respond with understanding. Sometimes they'll DM me and say, I'm sorry. Not often, I have to say. But sometimes they will. But either way, you know to respond with understanding. Sometimes they'll DM me and say, I'm sorry. Not often, I have to say, but sometimes they will. But either way, you know what it's like. You're not responding often to that one person. You're responding for the thousands of other people who are reading the way you responded.

Let's call that progress. I'd like to. Yeah, good. The book is called Heaping Coles, from media firebrand to Anglican priest. It is a terrific read. I've learned, you know, I've known you for I don't know how long 35 years something like that and I learned a lot about you and really love the book so congratulations. Thanks mate, really appreciate it.

Michael Corran.