The Agenda with Steve Paikin (Audio) - One Canadian's Peace Mission in Syria

Episode Date: December 21, 2024

With the overthrow of the Assad government in Syria, the story of a daring diplomatic mission undertaken more than a decade-and-a-half ago can now be told. Syria and Israel have been implacable foes for more than three-quarters of a century. But in 2007, a resident of Thornhill, Ontario met secretly with Assad for two-and-a-half hours in hopes of beginning a peace process with Israel. That man was Moshe Ronen, who has never previously publicly discussed his peace mission, and he joins Steve Paikin to talk about this experience and more. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Help TVO keep going. During the December donation drive, every donation made by December 31st is matched up to a total of $150,000. Your support helps provide learning resources, in-depth journalism, award-winning documentaries, and fun educational kids programming. Make a gift of $100 or more to receive a TVO tote bag. And please consider donating online to avoid mail delays and ensure you receive your charitable tax receipt for this year. Visit tvo.me slash end of year to make a difference today. I'm Matt Nethersole. And I'm Tiff Lam.

From TVO podcasts, this is Queries. This season, we're asking, when it comes to defending your beliefs, how far is too far? We follow one story from the boardroom to the courtroom. And seek to understand what happens when beliefs collide. Where does freedom of religion end and freedom from discrimination begin? That's this season on Queries in Good Faith, a TVO original podcast.

Follow and listen wherever you get your podcasts. With the overthrow of the Assad government in Syria, the story of a daring diplomatic mission undertaken more than a decade and a half ago can now be told. Syria and Israel have been implacable foes for more than three quarters of a century. But in 2007, a resident of Thornhill, Ontario, met secretly with Assad for two and a half hours in hopes of beginning a peace process with Israel. That man was Moshe Ronin, who has never previously publicly discussed his peace mission,

and he joins us now in studio. Moish, let's full disclosure, you and I have known each other a long time, I call you Moish, so great to have you here. Good to be with you, Steve. I want to set this up. We're going to go back to July 4th, 2007. You are in Damascus, Syria.

You are there because, quite remarkably, the American president George Bush, the Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper, the Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Omeret, and the Syrian president Bashar al-Assad all agree that you and Assad should have a meeting in the presidential palace. How did that happen? Well, it's as crazy as you described it. Through a coincident meeting with a friend of the Syrian ambassador to Washington, I was invited to a meeting in D.C. with the Syrian ambassador, who was very close to Assad, and we discussed the history of Israel-Syria relations.

He was very interested in my involvement in the community, my views about peace, and he told me that his president is a peacemaker and I should come to Syria and hear for myself, invited me to Syria. What did you think when he said that? I thought he was nuts. I have dual Israeli and Canadian citizenship. And I told him, I can't go to Syria.

And he said, no, no, I mean to come and meet the president. And I said, well, you know, I'd have to talk to my prime minister, Prime Minister Harper, and also to Prime Minister Olmert in Israel, which I did. And they both gave you the green light. They both gave me the green light. And Harper also said he wanted to get clearance from President Bush, because there was an idea that Harper,

if something comes out of this, that Harper might play a role. You walk into the palace in Damascus, where President Assad lives. And what do you see? I see at the very end of a long hallway, I see a tall man standing and waiting for me. And I couldn't believe it. I had to pinch myself that this was really happening. end of a long hallway I see a tall man standing and waiting for me and I couldn't believe it I had to pinch myself that this was really happening

and there he was the president of Syria and said to me welcome to Syria Moshe may I call you Moshe he asked if he could call you by your first name yeah I said absolutely mr. president you called him mr. president I called mr. president yes how much homework had he done on who you were before he met with you? Well, you know, he sort of said to me, you came here from Israel, because I crossed through Jordan and Syria from Israel,

having met with Omert prior to the visit. And I said, Mr. President, don't tell anybody, because Israelis are not allowed in Syria. And he laughed, and he said, not only that, you're a Zionist, you're pro-Israel, your father came to Israel on a very famous ship. And I said, Mr. President, I see your intelligence people did a whole x-ray on me.

And he said, no, Moshe, I surfed the net, and that broke the ice. I surfed the net. And that broke the ice. I surf the net. How is his English? Excellent. He's educated in London. He's an eye doctor, a specialist. He never intended to be president.

I think his father, the elder father, had wanted the eldest son to succeed him. But there was some tragic car accident. And ultimately Bashar took office. And he spoke English and spoke to me, just as you and I are speaking now in studio. How much security did you have to go through before you could see him?

As I mentioned, I saw Prime Minister Olmert earlier the day in the morning. And I had to go through a lot of security. When I went to see President Assad, nobody checked anything. Nothing? Nothing. You weren't frisked?

You didn't go through an x-ray machine? No. I was accompanied by the ambassador and his chief of protocol. And they walked me right into the palace. You talked for two hours in that meeting. I mean, I have to think it was a wide range. Two and a half hours. Two and a half hours. What did you talk about?

Well he explained his vision about Syria. We talked about the history of the Arab Israeli conflict. He made it clear as he put it, my father was a man of war. I am a man of peace. I will never go to war against Israel. And I see Israel as the road to America. And he made the argument that he is a man who wants to create a peace agreement between Syria and Israel. And he was very happy that I had discussed the visit with my prime minister, Prime Minister Harper.

And it was suggested that Mr. Harper be an intermediary and somehow the three of them meet to discuss his vision. Are you ready for a bit of a smart-ass question here? Okay, he says he don't want to go to war against Israel. Did you ever ask him then why are you going to war against your own people? I mean he was torturing and gassing his own people as his father did. Well at that time there was less of that that was at least known. Certainly, he was seen as a dictator. And certainly, his father had a very, very stained history. But Assad was not labeled a war criminal

and had not been, at least the evidence, wasn't in the or accusatory. And I think he was someone that we were prepared to talk to. and I think he was someone that we were prepared to talk to. Certainly, Prime Minister Harper and Prime Minister Olmert were ready to meet with him. As you are sitting there listening to this guy, who is an implacable foe of Israel's, talk about how he wants to make peace with Israel

and have an opening to the United States of America, and of course at this point, Syria is basically a Russian proxy in so many ways. Could you believe what you were hearing? Well, you know, I said, Mr. President, how is it that you want peace when on your way over, your ambassador, who was with us at the meeting, pointed out to me the Iranian embassy. And the Iranians were anti-Israel back then,

as they are now, and Hezbollah headquarters. And he leaned over and he said, Moshe, you as they are now, and Hezbollah headquarters. And he leaned over and he said, Moshe, you know, and he is sort of with a snicker, you know, I'm a dictator. I could have these people arrested tomorrow. I need to have American diplomatic, military, and economic support.

And if I have those three things, I'm ready to forge a link and change sides. Now this is 2007. Correct. So it's at a time when George W Bush is trying to, some would say encourage, other would say force, Middle Eastern Arab nations into embracing more democratic practices. What did Assad think about that? Well it's interesting, Prime Minister Harper, in order to be part of this, what we hope would be a positive project,

got clearance from President Bush. And in reference to President Bush, President Assad said, you know, my problem is President Bush. Not because I can't deal with him, but he has this idea, or America has this idea, that unless we bring our style of democracy into the Middle East, into the Arab world, we will never be able to move these people forward and make a deal and make peace with them. And he doesn't understand, Bush doesn't understand, says Assad.

You cannot bring our kind of democracy, the one I'm used to, that I learned about when I was in London, or the democracy that you come from in Canada, because the bad guys will be elected here. And I'll be hanging in the centre of Damascus even before you. So I think what he tried to say is that deal with this regime. The regime has its own philosophy, but that doesn't say that we can't negotiate a peace agreement. After two hours in the room with the other people there as witnesses, you did something very unusual.

You asked everybody else to leave, and you had a one-on-one with him alone. Why did you do that? I said, Mr. President, before I leave, I have a personal message from Prime Minister Olmert. And I was directed by Prime Minister Olmert only to deliver it as he put it in four eyes, just with the president.

And I had told your ambassador that I was going to do this. And the president said, of course, absolutely. And we spent about 20 minutes together alone where I delivered a very personal message from Prime Minister Olmert, a message about peace. Can you say what was in that message? Well, that's former Prime Minister Olmert's prerogative. It was a personal message.

I can tell you that it was a message of peace. It was a message about the kind of compromises that Olmert was willing to put forward. And I believe that there was a real sincerity. Now the trouble is, of course, if Assad was on shaky ground, so was Olmert. How much longer did he last as Israeli prime minister? Well, that was one of the problems.

Olmert was on his last leg. He was starting to have some problems. And it looked evident that he was going to be leaving the political arena. But Assad was also weak. And Assad said, you know, I'm weak. Prime Minister Olmert is weak. Weak people need to come together,

and we can forge a peace. And he believed that that could be an advantage at that time. OK, so you have the private one-on-one meeting with him. And then after that's over, he makes a strange suggestion to you. What did he suggest? Well he said that would you like to take something back to Prime Minister Omer to I was planning to meet the next day a report on the meeting and I looked around the room and I said well what do you have in mind and he said I want to send you some Syrian hummus.

Syrian hummus. I know Mr. Olmert likes hummus. And I have a package for you and for the prime minister, if you would deliver it. And I did. So you took the hummus from the Syrian president. You took it back to Israel. And you and the Israeli prime minister did what?

Well, I took it to Prime Minister Olmert. I came to visit him in his bureau. His security detail knew that I had a personal relationship with him. So, you know, they checked me, but they didn't... Hummus. I'm bringing him some hummus. They had no idea where it's from. And as soon as I walked into the room, Prime Minister Olmert says, Moish, sit down, tell me about your meeting.

And I said, before that, Prime Minister, I have something that you really will enjoy, hummus. I opened the hummus, and I brought some pita from my hotel in Tel Aviv. And we both dipped into the hummus. And Omer says to me, this is delicious. Where'd you get it? And I said, this is from President Assad.

And Prime Minister Omer bangs at everyone and says, holy shit. I can't believe this. And my security people let you in with this? And I said, I didn't tell them. And that sort of is the summary of my feeling about the visit. President Assad, I think, is sincere, wants to make a peace agreement with you. And, you know, the rest were the details.

I don't have to tell you. I mean, it could have poisoned the both of you, right? I had no fear whatsoever that Assad would poison us. Just before your meeting with the Syrian president ended, and I'm going to ask our director Sheldon Osmond, can you bring up this shot, please? You two posed for a picture. How did that picture happen? Well at the end of the meeting I was surprised when because the meeting was a secret exchange. President asked me if I would like a picture with him and I said absolutely I would and photographer came in and took a picture and an hour later

was delivered to my hotel before I left for Israel. There cannot be too many people in Canada who have a one-on-one picture with Bashar al-Assad. I doubt it. I mean, maybe, well, I was going to say, a former prime minister might have it. But even that, I'm not sure.

You might be the only person in the whole country. I don't know if it's in the whole country. But I can say I'm still pinching myself to see that this meeting really happened. And I have a lot of sadness about the fact that it didn't transpire to what I had hoped it would. Well, let's get into that. Because something just a few weeks after this meeting transpired, something happened. And basically, that was that.

What happened? Well, you know, I had an exchange with former Prime Minister Harper a few days ago because Assad just before he fell, just before the rebels took over, turned to the Americans and said come and save me from this attack and I'll switch sides. And we both knew that it was too late. The opportunity was in 2007 and it was too late. The opportunity was in 2007 and it was too late. Now about two weeks after I was in Syria Israel bombed and took out the nuclear reactor in Syria which Prime Minister Olmert ordered and you know that was something that obviously I

didn't know about but Ol Omert made it very clear. And I delivered the message through the ambassador that it had nothing to do with his desire to make peace. In other words, this was something Israel had to do because of its defense. But unfortunately, it was a big international event. But if you remember, Syria did not respond. No, they didn't, which was unusual at the time.

Correct. Israel bombed nuclear installations in Syria and Syria did not respond militarily but Omer knowing about your visit and knowing that if he bombs something inside Syria surely that will be the end of any potential peace process does it anyway. Did he make the wrong decision? No I don't think so. Ohmert made it absolutely clear that this had nothing to do with the intensity of his desire to make peace. This had to do with a threat that here was a country that was at war with Israel,

and a country which was very hostile, was about to have the nuclear capacity that the North Koreans were supplying and Omert was not going to tolerate. The Americans knew about it, the Israelis knew about it and Israel had to do what it needed to do for its own self-defense. But it had nothing to do with the desire to make peace. This was a military decision that took place. People were not killed. The installation was taken out. And if anything, I think, it provided more of an opportunity for peace.

You know, George Bush told Prime Minister Harper that he was skeptical about my visit and the messages. But they apparently exchanged secret messages following the visit which were all very positive and seemed to encourage them that there would be something out of the visit. Unfortunately I think President Assad got cold feet, did not go to a secret meeting that he was supposed to have with our Prime Minister and ultimately with Olmert and the idea fell apart. Okay I got to follow up on that. So at some point after your meeting there was supposed to be a meeting between Olmert, Harper and Assad?

Which Harper was going to convene secretly at the heels of the United Nations September meetings where heads of state come from all over the world. No one would suspect anything at that point and they would meet. Assad at the last moment got cold feet and instead said he wants Prime Minister Harper to come to Damascus. And Harper said there's no way I can get to Damascus and do this secretly. And the idea fell apart and the rest is history, unfortunately. So this is 2007. So that's 17 years ago. 17 and a half years ago that this meeting took place.

And in that 17 and a half years, how often have you thought to yourself, boy, we got close to achieving something pretty exciting that could have changed the world and it didn't happen? How much do you regret that it didn't happen? Well, I regret it very much. You know, the whole war in Syria, I think, would have been avoided if Israel and Syria were at peace, because Israel would have, I think, participated along with America to make sure, you know, the civil war would come under some control. I'm no expert, but

I'm very regretful, and it just shows how much, shows how much sometimes personalities, obviously leadership, is what makes or breaks peace agreements. And unfortunately there were many years of war that followed this visit. When you heard that he had been overthrown by his own people and forced into exile in Moscow, what went through your head? Well, Assad is a dictator. I'm convinced that he had to, at some point, leave office. And at some point, there had to be some form of, some kind of democracy in Syria.

But I'm not sure that the rebels, unless we're surprised again, but given some of the history of the leadership, I'm not sure that that's the right formula that will bring about the peace that I'd like to see in the region. Is it possible the and you know we're just starting to find out more about who's in charge in Syria right now, is it possible they'll be even worse than he was? I think a lot of it depends on American leadership and on Western leadership. I think what Assad said to me about the fact that the West, if they come with economic, military and that kind of support,

I think there's a possibility because these rebels are at odds with the Iranians, who are the biggest troublemakers in the neighborhood and the Russians there's a possibility of some kind of a at least in a dialogue with Israel a dialogue with America and if that happens I think we should encourage it Canada and along with the rest of the West and maybe we can see a different Middle East. Well let's finish up on that because you know Israel's got peace agreements with Egypt, with Jordan, under President Trump the first time around, the Abraham Accords with several other Arab states.

Syria was always thought to be the nut you cannot crack. They are just the worst of enemies and have been ever since the creation of the state of Israel. Can you imagine, with Assad now gone, in your lifetime, peace between Israel and Syria? I can. I really can. I think that it again it depends on the support that we decide to give it. It depends whether this new regime in Syria, if it continues, turns west or turns again to the Iranians. I'm hopeful. I'm really hopeful. And the Iranians. I'm hopeful.

I'm really hopeful. And the Iranians already made it clear that they hope that they will remain anti-Israel. I hope that the opposite will be true. There are some signs. There are some signs that I've seen in the press where the rebels have talked about some kind of peaceful reach out to Israel.

But it's too early, Steve. It's too early. But I'm hopeful. I'm always an optimist. Well, you've been sitting on this story for a very long time and we are glad that you decided to tell it here tonight. So thank you, Moshe. Thank you for telling it and I hope that it'll inspire maybe some good things.