The Agenda with Steve Paikin (Audio) - Saul Rubinek: Is Portraying Shylock Problematic?

Episode Date: November 2, 2024

In "Playing Shylock", an actor starring in Shakespeare's "The Merchant of Venice" is interrupted and told the show has been cancelled. From there, we get a monologue about having difficult conversations through art, Jewish identity, and spending a lifetime on stage. The actor is none other than Saul Rubinek.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Here's the premise of a new play at Cannes Stage called Playing Shylock. An actor starring in Shakespeare's The Merchant of Venice finds out during the intermission that the play has been cancelled. From there, the actor playing Shylock talks to his audience about how furious he is with the decision and takes us on a journey asking some tough questions about artistic courage, Jewish identity, and acting itself. The actor in this one-man tour de force is the great Saul Rubenek, and he joins us now for more.

It is a delight to meet you. Hi. Nice to meet you, too. Absolute pleasure. Thank you. What was it about the premise of this play that appealed to you so much? Well, for one thing, I didn't know what theater

we would end up in. It was COVID, and I met the writer Mark Leroy Young only on Zoom. Martin Kinch, who I've known since he was in his 20s, and I met him when I was probably about 19, 18 years old, was 80. And we remet again after many, many years. He's the director. He's the director of playing Shylock.

And then Mark and I, the playwright, met. And then we started to talk about different things. And then he brought up this play. He had written, Mark Lerner and Young had written a play called Shylock about 25, 26 years ago. It was a one-man show with this premise. That's all that was the same except for Shakespeare, some of Shakespeare's words, right?

Otherwise, every line is different. And he said, look said look at this and I said it's a bit dated and he says what do you think? and I said we started to talk and then It wasn't like oh, I've got to do this. It was just the joy of collaborating and nobody's doing anything We're stuck at home and I was collaborating with my old friend Martin Kinch and this wonderfully witty, smart writer from Victoria, Mark Leroy Young. And I suggested, you know, I've got to play an actor, right?

Who plays Shylock who's pissed off. And he said, yeah, he said, what if the actor's name was Saul Rubinak? And he got delighted. I saw this little evil glint in his eye on the zoom. Mark Lerner and Young and from there he started to take off and he said I'm gonna start watching all of your interviews over the years and I'm gonna use some stuff. I said okay we can lie too and he said no don't worry I like to lie. And so there

was something about it over two years though. I mean that's the thing man it was over two years and I didn't know none of us knew if it would turn into something anybody wanted in fact a number of theaters turned it down Never saying why but can stage didn't that I'm fascinated by that because part of the premise here Is that you playing Shylock are told at intermission? that the plays being canceled because they can't assure the security of the actors and the people who are gonna come to the show because there are demonstrators and it's all wrapped up and what's going on in the Middle East, et cetera, et cetera.

And Cannes stage is very much one of the villains in this show because you're upset with them. They have made the gutless decision to cancel your show. It's interesting that they would allow themselves to be portrayed in such a negative fashion in a play on their own stage. How'd you swing that? I didn't. It was already in the script of whatever theater decided to take the play that that would be the premise and Brendan Healy, the artistic director, was

amused by it and you got to hand him, you know, give him some credit for that. It's in jest, although we take it very seriously in the play. He likes the idea that engenders conversation, even though I disparage the fact that they say they engender conversation, but they aren't really having one when they cancel the play. So yeah, there, there's some courage involved in that, and it was humorous. But also I would think what also attracted him was the meta thing that I as the actor had founded that place a number with it with a number of other people Martin Kinch the director

number of other actors in the early 70s that was Toronto Free Theatre we cleaned the pigeon shit out of that place and was an old gasworks and we called it Toronto Free Theatre the tickets were free. And it was part of that really interested him. I can't speak for him. It would be a good interview to ask why he did it. But I loved the idea of collaborating. That was what it was. And then it turned into something that I began to say,

we've got to do it. And then nobody wanted it. Believe me, we tried. I would go on Zoom, and I would audition this on Zoom. I did a reading of it for quite a few theaters. In Toronto? No, around the country. Everywhere?

A lot of places. And they didn't want it because? You think they're going to tell me? It doesn't fit our season. It's not quite right for us. You know, I don't know what the real reasons were. You tell me. You saw the play. What do you think's going on?

I think it's gutless. I think there was a mound of courage. I think they didn't want the controversy. Which is there. And, well, let me start with Shylock himself. This is one of the great all-time characters in the theater's history. Can you un-lair a little bit of Shylock for us

as to why he fascinates you so much? Well, first of all, this is a fascinating piece. It is probably the first time in English literary history, in the history of English literature altogether, maybe the history of literature, that a Jewish character is presented as a three-dimensional character, even though he's a villain. He's got a decent motive.

You have to remember that in England, when this was written in 1595, and I dispute that the man from Stratford wrote this in the play, but that's also my opinion. You don't think Shakespeare wrote this, do you? But it's also my opinion, and I'm not alone. I mean there are many many people who doubt that the man from Stratford wrote much other than five bad signatures and a few letters about deaths. But that's only important. We'll get back to that. Why is that important? Who wrote it? If you enjoy it? Do you care that Beethoven, the life of Beethoven, do you care

that Beethoven wrote the Ninth Symphony or just want to enjoy it? That's an interesting question. But what was going on then, there had been no Jews in England for 300 years. So if a play is called Antisemitic, what is antisemitism if there are no Jews on the streets to attack, or in schools to attack, or synagogues to attack? What is antisemitism? Well, antisemitism then was a cultural thing. It was about Christ killers.

It was about the Jews who were spawn of the devil. They were presented on stage as puppets with horns. And maybe real Jews had cloven feet. Maybe real Jews actually did have horns. Anyway, they weren't seen. On stage, they were seen as spawn of the devil. And they were not three-dimensional people. In fact, the big hit of the Hamilton of its age,

written five years earlier by Christopher Marlowe, was The Jew of Malta, a massive hit, maybe a block away from the Globe Theater. And The Jew of Malta, the guy is just evil incarnate. So here is a character. And your audience may not be aware of this, but the merchant of Venice is not the Jewish character. That's an Italian Christian called Antonio. The merchant of Venice, that's the title role.

Shylock is the moneylender. He'schant of Venice, that's the title role. Shylock is the moneylender. He's the moneylender. It's five scenes. That's it, five scenes. Pretty memorable. Well, memorable enough that it made the careers of actors over 400 years of reputations of actors.

Why is a good question. Why? What is it about this character? Well, partly you have to see the play to see it, to understand a little bit about why. Playing Shylock gets into it. And if you've got a great actor playing in Merchant of Venice, then you'd see it too.

But Merchant of Venice is very rarely played these days with a Jewish actor, Shylock, which is part of the premise of this play. I was going to get into that later, but since you raised it, why don't we get into that right now? We are at a time in the life of our country where it is no longer acceptable for a non-Asian to play an Asian character, for a non-Indigenous person to play an Indigenous person in a play, and yet for...

There's a book written called Jews Don't Count. Well okay maybe that's where we want to go with this. For some reason you don't need to be Jewish to play Shylock. What do you think about that? Well obviously I think a great deal about it since that's a part of the premise of the play. There... look there's a great line to play where I say you know my manager calls me. I say in the play my manager called me up say in the play my manager called me up when I was not getting a lot of character he saw I'm sorry you know they're not looking to cast old white guys in character roles he says

what are you talking about I'm not white I'm Jewish my manager says yeah so the guys marching down the street chanting Jews will not replace us they don't think you're white but they don't cast movies the people who cast movies they they think you're white and we have don't cast movies. The people who cast movies, they think you're white. And we have been maybe white for a sliver in history. But we are other, and we always have been other. This is probably the fall of the Temple of Solomon. And I don't really mind at all when non-Jews play Jewish roles.

There is, yes, I understand why it is offensive to put blackface on and to put, and for non-Asians to play Asians, I understand that can be really offensive. Especially since so many other cultures have been denied the amount of work in our culture as white people have, including Jews. So I understand that. However, I believe, yes, as long as that's said, that I believe that that can be truly offensive. And that is a cultural appropriation under those circumstances. That said, I think acting, to a great extent,

acting is appropriation. You're pretending to be somebody you're not. Well, being the whole thing. Well, what is the whole thing? Being somebody that you're not is probably the only way an actor can show their common humanity with others. So you're somebody you're not in real life. Then you have to walk in their shoes.

And that is the beauty of writing, art, everything. So there is a dividing line, and it may be gray, and although it's proper to object to when it's onerous and racist, it is also difficult subject. Here's another difficult subject I'd like you to chew on, and that is whether this play has more resonance for you 13 months or so after the events of October 7th of last year? You know, one of the things I really avoid doing as an actor is to be any kind of spokesman for any kind of political opinion.

I don't feel that I have the expertise, the background, the knowledge, and the education to be able to speak to that in a public forum. What I can do is that the words Gaza and Israel are nowhere in this play. And if they were, I probably wouldn't have done it. I'm not trying to... none of us... The word Palestinian is in the play. The word Palestinian is in the play. The word Palestinian is in a play appropriately as one of the people who can, who are okay to play Shylock these days. They say Shylock is played very often. Shylock is

black, Shylock is indigenous, Shylock is Palestinian. As a woman? As a woman, yeah. Then we talk about all that. But as a Jew it's offensive to many people and that's part of the story. So it wasn't... First of all we started work on this before October 7th, but certainly it has to do with pre-holocaust and post-holocaust and holocaust. It has to do with the history of the Jewish people. And that Shylock has been a lightning rod for anti-Semitism and debate since it was first on in 1595, before there were even Jews in England. So that is fascinating.

Because once you create a three-dimensional Jewish character, you can imagine. Imagine this. Imagine that you have an audience in the 16th century. What were they used to? They were used to a Jew on stage that had a red wig. It was called a Judas wig, because Judas was supposed to have had red hair.

So they had red wigs. They had noses that came down and touched their chins. And they were comedy characters. They were played by the low clowns in the company, not by the great actors. And when they went on stage, the audiences threw oyster shells and figs. That's what they threw in those days.

And they booed them and cast called them and everything else. Now imagine, imagine you're a 16th century audience that's used to that. And you get this character that comes on stage, and he was dressed like that. There is record that Richard Burbage, not the clown actor in the company, the guy who owned the theater, 30 record that Richard Burbage, not the clown actor in the company, the guy who owned the theater, 30 year old Richard Burbage,

owner of the Globe Theatre, and who had just played Richard III, he was the star actor, not playing the central character of the merchant of Venice, but playing a five-scene role. Why? Probably because of this, what I'm about to tell you, because the audiences would have had their hands cocked, ready to throw figs. And they would have heard him go, what is his reason? What is his reason for treating me the way I am being treated? Because I am a Jew.

Hath not a Jew eyes? Hath not a Jew hands? Hath not a Jew organs, dimensions, senses, feelings, passions, hurt by the same weapons, fed by the same foods and you can imagine that they were stopped dead in their tracks. That instant can't be recreated unless we recast the audience into a 16th century audience. Certainly, post-Holocaust, all Shylocks are played sympathetically. But even if it would have been played unsympathetically

by actors in the 17th century, 18th century, certainly pre-Holocaust in England, you can't get away from that speech that humanizes that Jewish character to an audience where there were no Jews in the audience, and audiences that were anti-Semitic as easily as being a Torontonian and a Blue Jays fan. It was in Mother's Milk. So that's an extraordinary thing in the history of portraying Jews on stage. It is the most famous Jewish character in history and has brought with it.

Look, Goebbels decided that that was the most often produced Shakespeare play in Nazi Germany. They just cut out the speeches that humanize him. They just make him a bad guy. And so of course Jewish people all the time say you're not going to put Merchant of Venice on. Certainly you're not going to put Merchant of Venice on. Please don't do that. Not today. Rising anti-Semitism is a great line in the play that says when was that time when anti-Semitism wasn't rising? Before or after Moses crossed the Red Sea? When was that? So I've gone on a bit, but that's too...

I felt just now like I did last Saturday night when I watched you do the show. I just wanted to sit back and watch you do your thing. And actually, I want to ask you a question about how you did your thing, because there was a moment in the play at the performance that I went to where somebody's cell phone went off right at a key moment.

You were in the middle of a very dramatic part of your monologue. You didn't pay it any heed whatsoever. You didn't break character, you didn't do a thing. And the audit, I think we took our signal from you and we didn't notice it either. I was looking for people's heads turning and nobody's heads turned.

Did you hear it? Oh, yeah. You did hear it. Oh, yeah, sure. You know, I have lines prepared for this. And I talk about it. I talk about it as the character Saul that I'm playing, which has got a lot in common with me, but not everything.

There's some things that aren't true about me. But they're, but I'm ready for humor. I'm ready to say some stuff. But not at that moment. No, I couldn't. You couldn't at that moment. No, at that moment. I'm ready to say some stuff. But not at that moment. No, I couldn't. You couldn't at that moment. No, at that moment, I was thinking, I saw it.

I heard it, and I went, well, let's see how long this goes for. Because if it goes for too long, I can be in character and go, I'm going to just break now. There's no reason to break because there isn't anything broken. I'm playing me on stage talking to the audience. And I can easily go, I'm just going to wait. I think you should put it on speakerphone.

I mean, there's a, and I'm going to wait for a second, but answer it, it might be important. You know, maybe it's your daughter or something. And I can do that. And humor will get me, I'm not going to be angry. It just happens, you know, especially with older people who forget to turn their phones off. And I'm ready for it, but thank you for mentioning it.

But at that moment, I was the first audience. I'd never had an audience. And it happened at an extraordinary moment. At the worst time for it to happen, right? How do you not just completely lose your stuff at that moment? Well, I didn't, well, losing my stuff is okay in that show. I can lose my stuff.

I mean, I can even forget where I am. It's all right. I'm prepared for that. Okay. All right? This question, forgive me, is obvious, but it was the first question that the group that I saw the play with asked afterwards,

and that is how the hell does he remember all those lines? You're up there by yourself. Don't you get that question when you're 25 too? Yeah. How does he remember all those lines? You're up there by yourself. Don't you get that question when you're 25 too? Yeah. How do you learn all those lines? I don't know. I mean, you're up there by yourself for an hour and a half. How do you remember all that?

I've been doing this since I was, you know, seven years old. But still, it's a lot. You'll grant it's a lot. Mm-hmm. I mean, it's a longer story. I can tell you. You're going to cut a lot. I mean, it's a longer story. I can tell you. You're going to cut it out. Try me.

OK. How do you remember all that? You want to know? Yeah. Why would I ask a question if I didn't want to know? No, no, no. It's just a longer story, because I'm a storyteller. I'm 76.

I had a really good memory. I do not have a photographic memory. I've always had a good memory. And I've been doing this since I was seven, so it's a muscle, right? And you learn your lines and you learn, you have your own method. When I was 60, I, 16 years ago,

I have friends who are actors. And I'd say, you come over for dinner, or we'll go out, or whatever, and they go, I'm doing an episode of whatever, and I've got three pages to learn for tomorrow. There's no way I've got three pages, four pages or I've got two scenes and I go hmm. I wonder why they, I'm not gonna, you know, I don't have that problem. Thank God, you know.

Okay, I'll let it go. And then I got cast in a series called Warehouse 13 that I shot for five years here in Toronto for sci-fi. And I was the character that did facting. You know what that is now. It's called exposition stuff. Facting, I call it, instead of acting. I did a lot of acting, but it was facting. A lot of exposition was my character.

And one day, the showrunner, Jack Kenny, a wonderful man, came into the makeup trailer and said, I'm really sorry. The network blew up half this episode. And we got like eight pages of monologue here. came into the makeup trailer and said, I'm really sorry, the network blew up half this episode. And we got like eight pages of monologue here. You don't have to do it over a month, over the next three weeks, a quarter of a page at a time, but you're going to have to fix with exposition

why we're changing it. I said, OK, all right. So he handed it to me, six, seven, eight pages, full monologue. And I said, OK. He said, well, you don't have to do anything today. Tomorrow or the next day, we'll do a little of it. OK, all pages, full monologue. And I said, OK. He said, well, you don't have to do anything today. Tomorrow or the next day, we'll do a little of it. OK, all right, relax. And I was in my trailer, and they were two hours late

with the shooting. And I came out two hours later, and I said, Jack, I think I could do the whole thing right now. And he said, what? You have photographic memory. I said, no. How'd youic memory. I said, no. How'd you do that? I said, honestly, I don't know.

And he went, OK. And he tested. He said, come here. I had it pretty much down. And we shot all of it that day. About a year later, we were in Los Angeles with my wife and I were at dinner. And there was some people I didn't know.

And she told this story. And I said, it was funny, right? I have no idea and there was a woman there, a middle-aged woman, who said, what are you doing differently? I said nothing. Turned out she was a neurologist and I said I'm not doing anything. No, nothing. I'm not suddenly jogging and Eleanor said yes, you are. And she said what is he doing differently? He said he taught himself how to play classical piano about ten years ago and that's true we

moved into a house that had a grand piano my daughter had been ten in you know around ten years old at the time and she wanted to take piano lessons and there was a piano in the house we bought the piano with the house refurbished it and she got piano lessons and I called a friend of mine and I played guitar and I called a composer friend of And I said, I think I want to take lessons. He said, why? I said, I love classical solo piano. He said, well, you play guitar, right?

I said, I can play a little classical guitar. I taught myself. But this is different. He said, it's a lot different. I said, so I'm going to get a piano teacher. He said, you don't need a teacher. I don't need a piano teacher? He said, no.

It's not going to be like a music man. I'm going to think Minuet and G, and I'm going to play it. He said, Saul, find a slow piece of classical music and call me. The one you love. And I said, OK. I mean, I can tell you right now. He said, what?

I said, I love the Moonlight Sonata. He said, well, that's perfect. He said, I said, why? He said, you'll find out. He said, so here's what you do. Do you know how to read a bass clef? I said, no. He said, your daughter will show you. It'll take five minutes.

OK? You'll learn what the left hand does, what it is, how to read it. He said, Saul, you're never going to sight read. I said, what is that? He said, like, look at a piece of music that you've never seen before and start to play. That's 20,000 hours and eight hours a day for a number of years.

I said, OK. And are you going to play in public? I said, are you kidding? No eight hours a day for a number of years. I said okay and you're never are you gonna play in public? I said are you kidding? No! This is for me. I love it. He said okay. So here's what you do Saul. Memorize the first two bars with the right hand. I said okay. It'll take you 20 minutes or less. It's very simple in Moonlight Sonata. Okay I called him. I said I got that now. He said okay now learn the left hand the two bars I said, yeah play them together. Not so easy. But oh The left hand is mostly

Octaves this finger and this finger and that's it for that whole piece. He said yeah That's why it's perfect to start with I said, okay, and Then I said, okay. I've got two bars left and right hand. What fingers do I use? I need a teacher. And he said, whatever comes easiest. I said, OK. And he said, I said, now what? Do the next two bars and then the next two bars.

So what? He said, do it. So I had to memorize, because I can't sight read. I had to memorize all of Moonlight Sonata. He said, there's a downside. I said, what is it? Your family's going to learn to hate Moonlight Sonata. He said, there's a downside. I said, what is it? Your family's going to learn to hate Moonlight Sonata. And until you get your phones on the right kind of piano. And within a month, I could play Moonlight Sonata.

So then yourologist said, what you've done. And what do you play now? I was 61 at the time. I said, I play 25 pieces. I can play some Goldberg variations. I can play many of the Nocturnes. I can play, you know, Eric Satie. And he said you memorize them. I have to. I can't sight read. And she said what you've done for yourself over the last... When did you start? When you were 50? I said yeah. I said over the last 10 years.

You have gotten rid of the Swiss cheese. Or you're still there. That's what happens as you get older. But you've created synapses. You've created literally physical bridges that have enabled you to strengthen your memory.

I'll bet it's better now than it was in your 20s. I said, it's a little better now than it was in my 20s. And that's how I could do it. Now you know. I'm so glad I forced you to tell that story. Well, pick up the piano, guys. Learn an instrument. I want to finish on something

which I hope you won't think is too macabre. How old was your father when he died? Well, good question. He was my age, I thought, until I found his birth certificate and found out he lied about his age. Because you say in the play, 76. He was my age, I thought, until I found his birth certificate and found out he lied about his age. Because you say in the play he was 76. And you today are 76.

Yes, but it turns out that he was actually six years older than he said. Ah, OK. So he was 82. So this last line of questioning, then, makes no sense whatsoever. Go for it. Because the question was going to be,

how does that sit with you being the age at which your father died? It sits with me exactly as it felt on the stage, because at the moment I'm doing it on stage, it feels true. And it's an extraordinary moment for me on stage. But you have to see the play in a way to understand why. Because in a way, the character is doing Shylock in a way for his father, who was an actor in Yiddish theater which is also true about my father. He was an actor in Yiddish theater in Poland pre-holocaust. So it has to do with it

isn't so much the exact number. It has to do with an actor in the last act of his life denied the opportunity to play the role of his lifetime for that actor named Saul, who was always wanting to play Shylock, which isn't really true about this actor named Saul. But that actor named Saul really had his dream role taken out from under him. And so he's looking at his mortality and looking at his father's mortality.

And his father never got to play it. And he only got to play it for so long before it was yanked. And so it has the feeling that you're getting there has to do with what is possible for an artist to do when offending people is that if you if can you be an actor if only you can do things that don't offend people? Can you be an artist of any kind, a writer, a musician? I mean, if that's all we're allowed to do, then what are we there for? Is the whole feeling of the role and the character, right? And it's a good question because it has to do with this feeling that I've only got so much time left. But we all of us have only so much time left even if we're 20, we don't know.

And that feeling of that death gives life meaning is in the moment of that artist. But it's also in the moment for all of us. Probably the most important line in the play for me is when my father's father, and this is a true story. My father's father was my story my father told me because I couldn't hear it from my zeta, from my grandfather, because he died in a concentration camp. But my father said, you know, his father was horrified when my father cut off his peus, his side

curls, his orthodox Jewish side curls, and became an actor. And my father had to explain why this sin, this indecency, this shanda, this shameful act that my grandfather said was so far away from God, why he was doing it. He was the oldest. I mean he was, all the other kids looked up to him. Why? Why would he do it? And my father says, probably the best definition for art that I'd ever heard, which was if theater is good, then the audience sees themselves on the stage, and they don't feel so alone.

And my grandfather said, maybe it's not so far away from God after all. And to me, the essence of the piece is in that exchange. I am happy to say that people need to go see Playing Shylock, running through November 17th at the Berkeley Street Theater in downtown Toronto, because you are phenomenal in it,

as you have been over the last 20 plus minutes for this conversation. It's been a delight to get to know you, both on stage and here in our studio. So thank you very much Saul Rubick.