The Agenda with Steve Paikin (Audio) - Should Canadian Millionaires Pay More?

Episode Date: June 11, 2025

Members of the Canadian chapter of Patriotic Millionaires believe the wealthy should contribute more in taxes - and they're hoping they can help change minds and policies. How would their approach change conditions in this country, and can they actually convince other well-heeled Canadians to follow their lead? To discuss, we're joined by Emma Davis, member of Patriotic Millionaires Canada; Sabina Vohra-Miller, public-health scientist, co-founder of the Vohra Miller Foundation, and a board member of Patriotic Millionaires Canada; and Dylan Dusseault, non-profit and policy-advocacy professional and the inaugural executive director of Patriotic Millionaires Canada.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Members of the Canadian chapter of a group called Patriotic Millionaires believe the wealthy should contribute more in taxes, and they're hoping they can change minds and policies. How would their approach change conditions in this country, and can they actually convince other well-heeled Canadians to follow their lead? Let's dig in with... In Los Angeles, California, Sabina Vorat Miller, public health scientist and co-founder of the Vorat Miller Foundation. She's also a board member of Patriotic Millionaires Canada.

From Galeano Island, British Columbia, Emma Davis, nonprofit administrator and member of Patriotic Millionaires Canada. And with us here in the studio, Dylan Desoe, nonprofit and policy advocacy professional and the inaugural executive director of Patriotic Millionaires Canada. Dylan, good to have you in that chair and to Emma and Sabina and points beyond.

We thank you for joining us on TVO tonight as well. Dylan, just get us started here by telling us how this organization started. Sure thing. So the first version of Patriotic Millionaires started in the US about 15 years ago. I was in response to then President Obama considering extending the Bush tax cuts for millionaires. It was a sign-on letter of wealthy people in the US who said, for the good of our country, raise our taxes. It got a huge amount of media attention. It spun out into its own organization.

We formed a chapter in the UK about four or five years ago, and earlier this year we formed the Canada chapter and recruited the inaugural membership for that. And Emma, tell us about how the Canadian chapter came into being here. What was the push for that? Well, I think what we're seeing in Canada is, like we're seeing in most Western nations, we're seeing a consolidation of wealth in a smaller and smaller percentage of citizens.

And just like the other patriotic millionaires chapter, there's a need in Canada for a different kind of taxation that moves some of this money back into the public purse. Sabina, how did you get involved? Yeah, I think for me was when we were talking about increasing the capital gains inclusion rate in Canada. And I saw on social media, specifically on Twitter, people were very vocally speaking out against it. And I think that was the time when I decided I needed to join this chapter, talk about

why we really need to, as a public health scientist, why we actually need to be increasing the things like taxation rates. We need to be making sure there is equal representation with respect to how much money we're actually giving back into the systems, the infrastructure that we are using and that's really what got me to join this organization. Emma, let's make sure we understand what a millionaire is because of course if anybody owns a home in Vancouver or here in Toronto where the average price of a home is well north of a million dollars, and if you own a home, does that make you a millionaire and

therefore of interest to this organization? So Patriotic Millionaires defines a millionaire as someone who holds more than five million dollars in wealth, not including real estate. And I can tell you that the research is that there are about 90,000 Canadians with wealth over between five and thirty million dollars and then there are an additional fourteen hundred with wealth over thirty million. So Dylan what's your message for them? Look our message is no one in this country built wealth alone right? Everybody relies on our infrastructure, our health care,

our education systems to keep products moving, to keep the workforce healthy and educated. And it's up to the wealthy who have benefited the most for that system to pay more back into it. And fundamentally, there are pieces of our task code right now that are going to guarantee wealth inequality keeps going, wealth keeps getting funneled towards the top,

and we need to fundamentally change pieces of our task code to make sure these people are paying back into the system and reinvesting in the system that help make them wealthy. Sabina, when you take that message to people who are worth $5 million, who are the targets of, shouldn't say targets, that sounds nefarious, who are of interest to your organization, what is the general reaction?

You know, I think there's a very small subset of the population who's vocally against them, but actually we did a survey a couple years ago when we surveyed 201 Canadians who fit the threshold of patriotic millionaires and we asked them, hey, if we were suggesting increasing the tax rate, for instance, to address this cost of living crisis that Canadians are going through right now, would you actually be interested?

Would you actually support this? And in fact, over 70% of Canadians who fit this bracket of patriotic millionaire categories said that in fact, they would be in favor of increasing the tax rate. So if you actually look at the general population of rich Canadians in Canada, we are very supportive of this. But unfortunately, you just hear from that very small minority who are very loud about this, and they don't actually represent the rest of us. We see our friends, our neighbors, our teachers, our physicians, our, you know, mail carriers, we see them all struggling and we don't want our neighbors to be struggling. We don't want our friends to be struggling, and we know that, you know, societies that are unequal are just simply not

going to thrive, and taxing the rich actually leads to better outcomes for everyone, so why are we not doing it? And we all actually seem to agree on this, other than the few very select vocal minority. Well, let me talk about that, you call them loud minorities. But OK, Emma, you take this on. The Premier of Ontario, Doug Ford, takes a great deal of pride in saying that he's never raised a tax in the seven years that he's been in power.

I don't know if that's actually true, but that's what he says. There are people who believe there's nothing patriotic about paying more tax. In fact, you can talk to people who are very happy to tell you that it's actually unpatriotic to pay more tax and we should all be trying to pay less tax. What's your take on that? Well, I guess I would speak to that maybe from my personal experience. When my family's wealth situation changed, it didn't change my belief that there are,

there's a level of wealth that's too much. Uh, it's damaging to society and democracy. I think we all know most Canadian wealth is built on a legacy of inequality. There are all kinds of systemic privilege underpinning who gets wealthy. And we have an obligation to write those scales. Um, the fact that I got lucky and ended up with a disproportionate amount of wealth doesn't somehow qualify me to decide how it should be spent or where the greatest or most pressing needs in society are.

And I think taxation really is our best tool for addressing inequality. I'm a really big fan of democracy. We have a system for making fair decisions about where resources are most needed and prioritizing the highest needs. And it isn't a perfect system, but government spending is the only method we have for collective decision making about distributing resources. Dylan, is there something patriotic about paying more in tax? Look, I think it's a responsibility you have to your country, right?

You have to vote, you have to serve on juries, and you have to pay taxes. And I think, you know, we believe that the people who have gotten the most out of this system should be paying the most into it. It is a patriotic reinvestment. You know they are already. I know, but not at the rate. If we're talking about the rate of their wealth to what they're paying in taxes, you're

paying more as an average working Canadian who's paying taxes off your paycheck than people who primarily make their money off of capital gains or amassing properties per se. Sabina, what about just encouraging this group of millionaires to be more patriotic by being more philanthropic? What about that idea? Look, we obviously have a philanthropic organization. I believe strongly in philanthropy. But here's the thing, you know, why should I be deciding where funds are going?

Philanthropy, unfortunately, depends on the whims of rich people, what they're passionate about, what they want to put money into. And if you actually look at the stats, you will see that very small number of organizations get bulk of the funding, right? And that's not an equitable way of distributing funds. The way that we do it with taxation not only allows us to be able to distribute this equitably,

but also the key part is governments can scale like no one else can, right? do it with taxation not only allows us to be able to distribute this equitably, but also the key part is governments can scale like no one else can, right? That is the key point over here. So yes, people should be donating their money. They should be putting it in. And in fact, actually there's data to show that most rich people give away very, very little amounts off their personal wealth. So let's tax them, make it to make sure that they're actually giving that money to the government so that they can take on these big projects that philanthropy can simply not do it alone. Well, Dylan, let's get specific here.

There are a lot of different kinds of taxes that people watching and listening to this pay. Sure. Which ones would you like to see go up? Look, I think the fundamental problem with the task code right now is how we favor wealth and assets over income, right? If you make money from a paycheck,

you are going to be paying a higher tax rate than people who make money from buying and selling stocks. The Oracle of Omaha has been saying that for years. Exactly. So I think that's the fundamental problem we need to address. And that is changes to how we tax capital gains, that is considering wealth taxes, that's looking at doing asset

registries to make those effective. And that's also combating tax evasion and avoidance, which is a lot of tools really only available to the extremely wealthy, narrow set of the population that have access to a lot of lawyers and accountants that can help them hide or restructure their wealth to avoid or abate taxation. And we need to address those loopholes as well.

Well, okay, Emma, let's get specific here. Everybody except the most low income among us because they can get a rebate, but pretty much everybody pays the goods and services tax when they purchase a good or a service in this country. Should that tax go up? I don't think that the GST tax is a focus of Patriotic Millionaires' Platform at this time. We're looking at closing tax loopholes. We're looking at looking at tax rates for the wealthiest Canadians.

There's no inheritance tax in Canada. These are the kinds of things that we're focused on right now. So I take it then that when one of Mark Carney's first gestures when he became prime minister was to reverse the previous government's capital gains exemption, you were against that? I was. I was pretty vocally in support of that as a very beginning of more fair taxation in Canada, and I was really sad to see the Liberal government toss that out. Sabina, what's your view on that? Yeah, I completely agree.

In fact, I was pretty vocal even on Carney's social media pages. And I actually got massively targeted by those who were anti-tax increase. But I disagree with that. I think that there are definitely very easy ways for us to make sure that we are able to put money back into public systems. We need it for our health care. It's crumbling right now

across Canada. We need it for education. We need it for our infrastructure. Housing is a massive issue. How are we going to solve all of these critical issues that every Canadian is currently facing? This is the best way to do it. Dylan, when you call up the government of Ontario or the government of Canada and you say we've got these ideas and we want to share them with you and your officials, what's the reaction? Look, I think people are often happy to hear that there is a group of wealthy people that is interested in reinvesting this economy, is not necessarily interested in just hoarding wealth

like a fairy tale dragon, right? People are excited to hear that. We are going to be having an event actually tomorrow in Ottawa focused on this and how Canada can use its leadership as host of the G7 to push this agenda internationally. And so I think, you know, we are starting that engagement with the new government. We're excited to see where it goes and what the future holds. And we'll know more soon. Tell me about the event tomorrow in Ottawa. Sure. We are co-hosting it with Oxfam Canada in Quebec

and Canadians for Tax Fairness. It is a panel event focused on how Canada can use its leadership as host of the G7. If you look at what happened the last G20, Brazil was able to use its leadership as host of that to really push an agenda forward on how countries can work cooperatively to tax extreme wealth. And we believe that Canada should be kind of filling a big global leadership vacancy

at the moment and pushing this agenda forward and using it to combat kind of extreme levels of inequality and especially on tax evasion and avoidance. These are big international problems that need to be worked on collectively. Do you know if anybody from the Liberal government will be attending your event? Yeah, I think we are going to have a lot of people, staffers from Finance Canada, members of parliament,

including people from the Liberal Party, will be attending. Okay. Emma, here's the thing. You know, we've seen other countries, and I guess France was sort of a very good example of this, who tried to put a tax on the richest citizens. And the reaction seemed to be two different things. Some, like Gerard Depardieu, just left the country entirely.

Others were so clever in the way they reorganized their finances that they didn't, the Ministry of Finance didn't get nearly the yield in taxes that they thought they'd get from targeting, taking an interest in higher income people. I wonder if that's not a problem for this organization in as much as the people you want to get the money from are the people who have the money to hire very good accountants to show them how not to pay more money? Sure. Well, this is why part of the Patriotic Millionaires platform is international cooperation on these issues.

This is an issue for Canada and for Canadians to talk about their domestic tax policy, but it's also part of an international conversation, which is why the work at the G7 is so important. There are ways that we can tax and write policy in Canada that will reduce the risk of flight. I think there's also an opportunity to work on that internationally and find solutions to that that do make it less of a temptation. That said, I do think that one of the reasons that rich folks choose to live in Canada, where they have choices, they can move, they can go to other places, one of the reasons that people choose to live in Canada is that it's a great place to live. And that's

going to continue to be true even if you're going to lose a little bit more of your wealth in taxation. And so I think that that's a little bit of a bogeyman. I hear you, but Sabina let me follow up with this. And in fact, I do hear from people who say, we do love raising our kids in Canada. This is a much better country than, for example, our friends to the South, particularly right now, to raise a family in, et cetera. However, I do hear the other side,

which is, I'm trying to run a business here. The regulations are crazy. I'm paying too much in tax. And if they do one more thing to me, I'm out of here. What do you say to those folks? Yeah, I mean, look at me. I'm living right now in California, but I'm coming back to Canada.

I'm moving back to Canada. But here's the thing, right? Rich people can live wherever they want to live. But why would we want to live in a place that does not have good infrastructure, that does not have good schools, that does not have good public health or health care systems? The bottom line is people want to live in places that actually

have these amazing facilities and capabilities. If you actually look at the data, some of the most livable places in the world are places that have high taxes, because there is data to show that high correlation between higher taxes and better quality of life. So I do feel that if people decide to make that decision to leave, they're going to quickly realize that where they have decided to go for this is, you know, does not pass the smell

test. They are going to realize that's actually not where they want to live. I mean, look at California, right? Where is all the tech in the world coming from? It's coming from one of the most highest tax rate states in the U.S. People are still living over here. People are still choosing to start their businesses here in California.

And it's the exact same thing. I personally don't. I mean, I've had these conversations with a lot of our friends who are against this tax rate increase, et cetera. But when I ask them, I'm like, really, are you going to stop investing because you're going to make slightly less money, slightly less profit?

Is that really a reality? And frankly, I think that's absolutely laughable. Why are you moving back to Canada? Because Canada is home and you know what, I love the security that we have in our country. I love that we actually have laws that govern us. I actually love the fact that we have free healthcare in our country. I actually love the fact that people in Canada care about our neighbours. And that is exactly why we've come together, because we all love our neighbours. And we want to make sure that while we are succeeding in life, our neighbours are also succeeding in life.

Dylan, anybody who heard you say, Ottawa, a few minutes ago will know you're not from Canada. You're from Florida, but you're moving to Canada. I have moved to Canada. You have moved, how come? I'm a permanent resident in Canada. Look, this is where my wife and I wanted to raise our family and start our family.

This is where we want it to be long term, because we think this is a great country, for all the reasons Sabina just outlined and more. And I think that is a big message of Patriotic Millionaires Canada, right? This is a great place. It needs investment to stay a great place. The people who have gotten the most out of this great place should be investing the most back into it. And that's why I'm really enthusiastic to be here and be starting this chapter. Are they paying you enough that you're in the crosshairs of this organization now and they're gonna come after you?

No, luckily I am not fighting against my own self-interest here like our brave members. Okay, good. Let's take a little walk down memory lane here. Seven years ago, was it seven? Six, six years ago we had Brett House on this program. Brett was at the time, I think, chief economist, deputy chief economist for Scotiabank. He's now at the Munk School of Global Affairs and

Public Policy at the U of T and let's hear what he had to say about some of these issues. Sheldon, if you would. One of the biggest needs I think we have to keep in mind is that Canada is traditionally a capital poor economy. We're a small population on a very big landmass and to develop we have always needed to bring capital in from abroad if we want to ensure that our tax system continues to incentivize that rather than pushes it away. So your concern is a wealth tax would would have a chilling effect on money coming into the country and investing here? It absolutely could. Well Emma that's the fear. What do you say to

him? Well I think as Sabina said earlier, I think that there are lots of reasons that people choose to live and invest in Canada. It's a great place to live. It's a country that takes care of its people. And those are first and foremost, the reasons people choose to be here. People invest in the place that they live. That's how people make decisions about, you know, where they, where they want to see things get better.

Um, I, I just don't see't see that an increase on the wealthiest Canadians, we're not talking about your average Canadian here, I don't think an increase of taxation on the wealthiest Canadians is going to suddenly result in people leaving the country and taking their money. You know, there's any number of different ways to get at this obviously, but we have seen governments in the past flirt with the idea of, for example, putting a tax on yachts because average people do not buy yachts or even potentially putting it on you know six-figure cars because

You know it's unlikely you're going to be an average person and afford to spend more than a hundred thousand dollars on a car Sabina what about those ideas just taxing so-called luxury products would that get you where you want to go I? Mean, I think that's definitely a start right that does put some money back into the public purse those ideas, just taxing so-called luxury products, would that get you where you want to go? I mean, I think that's definitely a start, right? That does put some money back into the public purse, but I don't think that's sufficient. I think that's one of the things we should be looking at, because again, if you actually look at how much money

the Canadian rich folks have, I mean, the data says that the richest 1% control over a quarter of Canada's wealth, which amounts to $3.5 trillion. That's a lot of zeros, by the way, right? No one needs that much money. And I can tell you as someone who was a first generation immigrant, I faced houselessness when I first came to Canada.

And I'm in a situation now, which is completely different. I can tell you that it is so easy for rich people to make more money. Right. And here's the thing, people who are rich, who have this amount of money, are not going to realize they have slightly less money because they have so much money. No one needs that much money.

If you actually look at the stats, last year, billionaire wealth in Canada grew by 309 million every single day. Meanwhile, we have over what? Four million Canadians in Canada who are living below the poverty line. That just does not make sense. Right? So here's the thing.

Yes, put taxes on things like yachts, on private airplanes, et cetera. But we need more than just that. And we can see what's happening in the U S right now with those ultra rich people. Not only are they rich, but they also now have influence and power and they're making all these decisions for the entire country to benefit themselves. We have to make sure we don't get into that position. Emma, I wonder what you thought during the last federal election campaign that just concluded back in April. I wonder what you thought when, I don't know if you watched the debate, but all of the candidates on that stage were basically competing with each other to see who could cut taxes

more deeply and more broadly. What did you think of that? Yeah, I mean, I was disappointed to see that. I think that there's a big difference between campaign promises and policies, and I think that that doesn't mean there isn't an opportunity to continue the conversation. At a certain point, I really do think there has to be a conversation about how much is enough. I think that extreme wealth corrodes democracy.

I think wealthy people have a disproportionately loud voice. We saw that after the capital gains inclusion rate was proposed to go up. And I think that at a national level, wealthy people really, they control social media platforms and traditional media outlets. I think that when people see extreme wealth resulting in a disproportionate political power and they see that not everyone is paying their fair share, they lose trust in the democratic system

and they can become disenfranchised. And I really think that at the end of the day, democracy is what we're all working to protect here. Dylan, you told us that this organization exists already in the United States and in the United Kingdom. What is the experience of, let's call it the success rate, that those organizations have had in those countries in getting governments to act in the way you want them to act?

Sure. I think it's obviously a bit of a mixed bag, right? I don't think that the current government, for example, in the US is gonna be particularly responsive to the wealthy people that are members of patriotic millionaires, because they have plenty of wealthy people in their ear every day,

who are really steering a lot of the conversation. The problem, there may be patriotic millionaires in the United States, but there are also a lot of patriotic billionaires who are with Trump, and they don't wanna to pay more tax. Sure, you know, I don't know that I would call them patriotic billionaires. Fair point. Yeah, I mean, I think that there's plenty of that going on.

I think in the UK there's been some success. I think during President Biden's administration, we saw some pretty significant changes. And I think you've also seen a huge change in the shift of public opinion in the US and in the UK on what it means to tax extreme wealth, on what the dangers of extreme wealth and equality are. And I think, you know, organizations like Patriotic Millionaires have played an important role in that. Sabina, this feels like at this moment, you know, in the political zeitgeist, this feels

like a very large boulder to push up a very steep hill. How are you finding it? It is. But, you know, I think what we're trying to do over here is also make some noise, right? I think for me personally, I am just so disappointed to see only the ones who are against it speaking out loud and clear. And so I think if the more noise we make, the squeaky wheel gets, what's that? The squeaky wheel gets the deal. That's what we're trying to do over here.

Yes, exactly. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. That's it. And yes, there are challenges, but we're up for it. That's the whole point. We're fighting for our Canadian neighbors. How can that not be invigorating? Absolutely is.

As a first generation immigrant, Canada means so much to me and I want to make sure that everything that I receive when I move to this country is what everyone else gets over here too. We have to be equitable. That's the only way we all actually thrive. Okay. Emma, we've got a conservative government in Ontario, so I'm not sure what the chances are of having any of this happen here, but you've got an NDP government in British Columbia. Are they open to this message?

Well, I think that that's absolutely a conversation that we'll be having. And I think, you know, I'm lucky to live in a green riding. So I know I have the ear of Elizabeth May when we have these conversations. And I think it's really early days. Patriot Millionaires is a new organization. So I think that the first thing is just to start reaching out and seeing what potential there is and what folks are open to talking about.

Gotcha. I want to thank the three of you for coming onto our program tonight and giving, if not equal time, at least some time to the other side of the argument when it comes to tax policy. Sabina Vora Miller, who's on the left of the screen, Dylan Dussault, who's in the middle of the screen,

and Emma Davis, who's on the right of the screen, Dylan Dussault who's in the middle of the screen, and Emma Davis who's on the right of the screen. They all represent a group called Patriotic Millionaires Canada. And as the word suggests, if you're making five million bucks a year, if you've got that much disposable income lying around, they want you. All right, thanks so much everybody.

Appreciate you coming onto TVO tonight. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you.