The Agenda with Steve Paikin (Audio) - The Agenda's Week in Review

Episode Date: May 24, 2024

Can wood revolutionize construction in Ontario? A look at the state of the race for Mississauga mayor next month. And, how will readers and writers remember Alice Munro?See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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You may swim, be healed, or borrow a book inside of them. They are eye-catching and often spectacular. We're talking about mass timber buildings. They're mostly used now in public structures such as community centers, universities, and healthcare facilities. But our guest tonight will tell us that mass timber buildings could also help this province and country fill its affordable housing gap. And with that, we're joined by, in our nation's capital via Skype, Steve Kraft. He's principal with CHM Fire Consultants. And here in our studio, Philip Silverstein, principal at the architecture firm Moriyama Tashima. He's also coordinating construction of Limberlost Place at George Brown College in Toronto.

Christopher Williams is here. He's a vice president at Timber Systems. That's a Markham, Ontario-based manufacturer of mass timber. And Anne Coven, a forester by training, now director of the Mass Timber Institute, also here in Toronto. And it's great to have you three here at our table. And Steve, thanks for joining us on the line from the nation's capital. And just, I think we got to start, Christopher, to you first. There'll be a lot of people who have no idea what we're talking about here. So let's just start with how mass timber is made to begin with that ends up building a building. Certainly. Well, mass timber, just as a general concept, is large sections of timber that

are made from smaller members of timber. So not like plywood or strand board, but two-by-fours and two-by-sixes that are engineered and glued together in a fashion that allows us to make larger pieces that are more predictable from an engineering and strength perspective that allow us to have the predictability that we need as engineers and designers to build larger and more complicated structures than we traditionally have. Hardwood, softwood, doesn't matter? All softwood. Technically, you could do it with hardwood, but all of the construction material that's done for timber construction in Canada is usually softwood lumber, primarily

spruce pine fir or Douglas fir. Okay. And I gather the technology behind all this started in Austria, which may be a bit unusual because you would think of a place with massive forests as being the place where this started. And they don't there. So how did that happen? Yes. It's a curious question, but I think it really has to do with innovation. And the Austrians are very small land base, could easily fit many times over into Ontario, very little wood, wood's expensive.

And so really I think their first motivation for innovating, exploring, developing mass timber products is really sustainability. They wanted to use every scrap of wood that they could for an engineered wood product. And so when you look at sustainability, the less wood you can use and optimize its sustainability by way of its cost, by way of, with respect to climate change, sequestering CO2, there are many ways to be sustainable. And I think the Austrians have done a good job in introducing it to us. And I'm excited because we've been making wood products, lumber, and pulp and paper for 250 years.

And we've been doing the same thing over and over again. So I think this is a wonderful opportunity to innovate our forests and our supply chains. This is new. No question about it. All right, let's talk about from an architectural perspective. What's the appeal? The appeal? Oh, there's probably 100 things I could talk about. It's beautiful.

It smells great. But really the appeal is the sustainability, the sequestering carbon nature of the material. It can be regrown. Concrete doesn't grow in trees. Neither does steel. But to have a material you can use as your structural

system that can be grown, harvested, it sequesters carbon. It's a miraculous material. It's a fifth the weight of concrete and has the same structural properties or similar structural properties to concrete and steel. So it's a miraculous material and the speed of construction, and the speed of construction. The labour force is lower than most traditional construction methods. So the appeal is really the sustainability. Let's go to Stephen Ottawa because we want to bring our fire expert in at this point.

And I know we've only been talking for a few minutes, but I can imagine people watching this or listening to this saying, wait a second, what about fire? So what if people are going to ask, can't this stuff go up in fire? Can it go up in flames? Is it as safe as steel and concrete? You've been doing the experiments. What do you know? Yeah, so for the last 15 years, we've been doing fire tests on mass timber,

both fire resistance tests. We've been doing tests on evaluating how it contributes to a fire in a building. And at the end of the day, we can design a mass timber structure to perform from a fire resistance perspective. So the ability to stay in standing and in place for the same durations as we build steel and concrete buildings for.

And we've also looked at from a fire perspective, the performance of how the mass timber impacts the fire. So at the end of the day, we wanna see that if we build a tall mass timber building, that it's going to perform similar to traditional materials, concrete and steel. And so what we're looking for is we wanna see that in the event that the sprinklers fail to control the fire

in the building, we wanna see that the building's not going to be adversely, or it's not going to be impacted beyond what a steel or concrete building would happen. So we wanna make sure that that building's not going to, for example, burn until it collapses. Like see commonly see with perhaps a single family home so let me just clarify this steve steve let me just clarify is is a building out of wood intrinsically more flammable than a building made out of steel and concrete uh intrinsically yes it it uh it will have uh it will contribute to the fire but at the of the day, what we're looking for is we're looking for performance that would be comparable to a steel or concrete building.

So these buildings are sprinklered, and so it's rare that we would see in a high-rise mass timber building a fully developed fire. mass timber building, a fully developed fire. But in the case that we do, we want to make sure that the building's designed such that that fire can burn out on its own and not challenge the structure. What can you do with mass timber that you can't do with concrete and steel? So mass timber is very interesting for a variety of different reasons. And your earlier group, it was a very interesting discussion. The impact of mass timber design on health is effectively like a four-legged table, like this table with health sitting on top of it. And design has a significant impact on ecological health. And that was the discussion, you know, on your earlier panel. One cubic metre of wood is the equivalent of three and a half cars driving for a whole year.

So that's very important. The other important thing is design's impact on our physical health or our economic health. Clearly, wood is very important on economic health, because a lot of the small communities in Ontario, this is, you know, floating their boats, and that impacts societal health. But the important piece of the puzzle is we're not building these buildings just to solve the ecological thing, is we're building them to house people. And people gets back to performance. And so wood buildings has an impact, again, back on mind health,

which is the asset-based view of it. And what do I mean by that? That if you look at the sound of wood, you know, when you walk on a wood floor, that has an impact on your theta and beta waves in your mind, which is the stress side. It begins to reduce it and increases the calming side of it. The scent of cedar, you know, that lovely, you know, that sauna you go into,

what that does is reduces your cortisol levels, which puts you in a better frame of mind for thinking. And visually, it is significant because it increases social interaction, relaxation. People want to linger and spend time together. If you look at it in schools, we use a lot of it in our school environments. Why? Because it enhances the performance of students on their tasks. So tell me this then. I mean, we've been hearing business and governments for decades complain about our lack of productivity in this country.

You seem to have opened a potential door here that could see our numbers spike. What would have to happen in this country for there to be greater acceptance in a move towards doing more with this? We are clearly in a period where we're beginning to take more of a holistic view of what we do and how we build.

Why has that happened? Because we went through COVID. And why aren't we going back to the office? Because we've discovered there's somewhere else. We don't like being in these tuna cans anymore that don't inspire us. That's right. Because I perform better in these environments. And so obviously a lot of our working environments are problematic as a result of it. But I think we've begun to discover that, you know, some places make us feel really great and others suck the life out of us. the life out of us. And so if it's all about human performance, where we live, where we work, where we heal, where we learn, the social interaction, the places we want to linger and spend time with, these things have a significant impact as a result of the places we crave. The book is absolutely gorgeous, and you've got fantastic pictures in there of

different places around the world where you are doing work. How about here in Canada? Are you catching on in Canada at all? You got some projects on the go you can tell us about? We are. We have, in the education sector, we've been very, very busy. And in fact, a variety of independent schools, because they're connecting the dots between places that create social interaction and gathering and empathy and sharing and then globally we are very busy we've got a dozen projects in in ireland we're very busy in europe uh israel we've been very very busy because a lot of the leadership are beginning to connect the dots between what their aspirations are as an organization and how you can use space as an accelerant to enhance the culture of the organization the performance or people

just simply wanting to go back to the office I'm tempted to ask you what's the what, the performance, or people just simply wanting to go back to the office. I'm tempted to ask you, what's the least healthy building? I don't know, you know Toronto pretty well. Look around downtown Toronto or anywhere else, you look at a building that screams unhealthy to you. Which one? Well, let me just flip that around slightly. Let's pick two very significant buildings in the city, and what do they communicate to you? So let's take the ROM, and let's take the AGO. Okay. And so the ROM you come up to, it's got these sort of jagged shapes coming towards you, and a little mouse hole that you go into, which in fact they're renovating for a couple, about 100 million or so to open it up.

When you walk inside, it's mostly drywall with angled walls and a little light. Let's take another cultural institution as a comparator. Let's take the AGO. When you come towards it at the entrance, the building begins to curve back. In fact, a lot of timber in that. at the entrance, the building begins to curve back. In fact, a lot of timber in that. There's a canopy that protects you in case it's raining or otherwise. And then when you come up into the gallery spaces, you've got this sort of timber that, you know, sort of fades open and you look out onto the street. And in fact, even in the central space with a curving stair,

that accentuates you to want to move through it because of the materials. Both of those communicate very, very different messages on how the environment makes you feel. And I know which one you like better now. Well, I'm just giving examples as opposed to a critique. I get you. I get you.

Discussion. I'm just giving examples as opposed to a critique. I get you. I get you. Forty-five years and only two mayors, right? Hazel McCallion and Bonnie Crombie, who, of course, is left to be the Ontario Liberal leader. So there is a by-election to replace her.

Voting day is June the 10th. And if you haven't been following the campaign so far, Noor's going to get us all up to date here on who the main candidates are. Fire away. Sure. So there's 20 people who are running for mayor. There are clear front runners based on polling. And it's only been a few polls that have come out in the last month or two. And, you know, I think it's interesting that four members of council or previous members of council are running and those are kind of they have kind of become the front runners out of those. And based on polling, you know, Carolyn Parrish, who is a household name for many in Canada, is has has had a clear lead in the polls. And, you know, a little bit behind her is Deepika Damarala, who's also well known in the liberal MPP provincial circles.

Deepika Damerla, who's also well-known in the Liberal MPP provincial circles, and Alvin Tedjoe, who's a newbie on council, but he has also kind of been quite vocal on a lot of really progressive things, policies, and so he's been third. And Steve Dasko, who also is a councillor, has been kind of a close fourth, I guess you'd say. It's all very kind of, you know, it's close pretty much at this point. So those are the four main frontrunners, but there is, you know, 20, 16 other candidates if people are looking for a different voice. Right. And just to follow up, Carolyn Parrish, people might know because she was a longtime Liberal member of Parliament. Deepika Damerla was a member of the Ontario Legislature. Alvin

Tedjo ran for the Ontario Liberal leadership against Stephen Del Duca. That was two contests ago. So those names may be familiar for that reason. Zachary, to you next. What do you think people are looking for in a mayor right now? Well, they're looking for policy positions for sure. Housing is top of mind, absolutely. So is affordability.

But looking back at Mississauga's recent history, I think what they're really looking for is a champion for the city. The last two previous mayors have been very, very vocal champions, very prominent provincial actors as well. And so I think that voters are also trying to look for someone who will fit that image to a certain degree, along with the sort of issue alignment that is affecting the city right now. Sue, let me get you on that as well. What do you think people are looking for in their next mayor? I think they're going to be looking for somebody that can be a leader

for the city and a voice of the residents. I think that's kind of been lacking. And we need to have somebody that can be strong. We've got a lot of challenges facing us. We've got the province that we're dealing with, Bill 23, Bill 112. We've got a lot of... No one knows what these numbers mean, so what are you talking about? So Bill 23 is the more homes built faster, which means that the Ford government is mandating intensification in Mississauga. And some people like that and some people don't.

Exactly. Mississauga has an official plan and it's got local area plans. It's got planners, it's got specialists, and they've spent years coming up with these plans. And to have them trumped by the province is not necessarily a very good thing. Okay. Rahul, how would you answer that question? I think there's going to be a real contrast here. You know, it's interesting for being in the city itself, you're seeing a lot of celebration where Mississauga is also happening to turn 50 right now. And yet more people are not so much celebrating but asking themselves,

will I have a future in this city? What does the next 50 mean to me? Because we know, having reached our kind of urban boundary, we're not going to be able to build or move in the same way we always have. So I think there's going to be this potential disconnect, this risk of your traditional voter, who is fairly well established here. We know the voter turnout is low. What are their issues in contrast to the existing populations

that are having trouble to stay here? How are they going to continue to live here? How are they going to continue to move here? Will there be that kind of contrast between maybe a traditional voters' argument of crime and low taxes, as opposed to, well, we actually have a lot of things we need to find money for that we don't have right now? You know, I remember, Sue, when you could buy a house in Mississauga for $100,000. What's the average price now? I believe the average price is about $800,000.

No kidding. $800,000 for a house in Mississauga. Absolutely. Unbelievable. And again, that's one of the big problems. How do you keep seniors staying in place, aging in place? And how can young people afford to stay in Mississauga? Noor, I wonder if, you know, sometimes in these election campaigns,

there's not a thimble's worth of difference among all the major candidates. How about in this one? Do they divert on any major issues in a major way? I mean, it's a good question, and it's the one I've asked them all, that, you know, your priorities are very similar, right? Affordability, more housing supply, low crime, taxes. So how would anybody who's coming into this blind know who to vote for? They do give me a little bit, an inch here, an inch there in terms of difference. But I think a lot of voters will look at, if they're keen to, look at the voting record

of these candidates. They'll look at where certain candidates know, certain candidates stand on, you know, social positions, international positions. You know, Mississauga is such a diverse community. A lot of people are looking at, I've heard from, you know, the Muslim community, in particular, people are wondering, like, which politician has taken a position that's sympathetic

to, let's say, what's happening in the Middle East, right? So people are looking at different things. It might not be a local priority. It might be an international priority. So I know that has come up. I think some candidates are also have taken clear positions on transit or biking lanes that, you know, in terms of do we want more biking lanes? We want to look at different ways to bring in biking lanes. There's been a lot of discussion around housing. You know, one candidate in particular has kind of come out as a more progressive candidate on housing.

Who's that? Alvin Tedjo. Okay. So he's kind of seen as someone who's really pushing a very progressive vision, a lot more density, and more ways to kind of bring in the youth into it. And he's really kind of, I think, going for that youth vote, whereas someone like Carolyn Parrish, she's so well-known for so many years. As you brought up, she's a federal MP and has been on council for decades. And so a lot of people who are well established, who know what they'll get, are kind of looking at Carolyn Parrish. Zachary, can I get you to follow up on that? Any big cleavages among the candidates that you can see? We haven't seen a ton on the policy front,

but for me, one of the more interesting components is the generational shift between some of the candidates, right? We have candidates who are more well-known, who are established, who have been fixtures of the city's politics for 30 plus years. And we have a younger generation of candidates too, who are being a little bit more progressive on things like housing, livability, stuff like that. So for me, that's one of the big things to sort of look at here as well, is what does a younger generation want? And there are certainly younger candidates who are willing to step up and champion some of those issues. Chanel, start us off here. I want to get everybody's personal connection to Alice Monroe

off the top. What would you say is yours? So I was introduced to Munro's writing at an early age, early high school, I think. It was lives of girls and women. And I was two years into my life in Canada and had just become a teenager and all the complex feelings and emotions that come with that. And as a young immigrant to Quebec, to Canada, you know, I was navigating in a country that was completely different than the small village that I grew up in on the small Caribbean island of St. Vincent. So I spent a lot of time alone during those early days. And I spent a lot of time in our library. And I think it was a librarian that actually handed me a Monroe's book. And by reading her book, I was able to, A, you know,

find commonality between me and the female characters, especially the ones that were my age. And also it was about, you know, they were set in small town Ontario, which is not that different than the village that I grew up in. There were a lot of similarities between the characters that we meet, the relationships that were happening in the stories. So, yeah, so that's how I became, you know, that's how I was introduced to know, that's how I was

introduced to Monroe's writing. Fabulous. Heather, how about you? I first, of course, I had known the name, but I first read her when I was at McGill University, and I took a class in Canadian literature written by women. And it was a syllabus of 20 or 25 writers. And it was a huge class, one of these survey classes with 400 students. And the very last day of our semester, then the professor came in and she said, you know, it's quite remarkable because every single student in this 400 to capacity class has chosen to write their final essay on Alice Munro and it really struck me how there is something in her writing that responded to that everybody in the class connected to it and you know it was a class just filled with young women and when you read Alice Munro you

think she's really so intimate such an intimate experience. And also that sort of existential loneliness of being a young woman and having sort of a lack of resources and having to make these decisions on your own that in everybody kind of curtails them and acts as though you're mad every time you do anything for your own happiness. So for me, it seemed like such a unique take, but everybody else in the class too was like, yes, I also love that idea that a young woman has the entire world and deserves the entire world, despite what everyone's telling her. Lovely. Professor Redikoff, you not only liked her a great deal, you knew her and you decided to write a book about her. So where did the connection come from in the first place? Well, I didn't know her when I decided to write a book about her. So where did the connection come from in the first place? Well, I didn't know her when I decided to write the book about her. So in a way, my whole connection has been, I would say, uncanny in a way because of the connections that happened.

Because before I ever thought of writing a book on Alice Munro, I did my PhD dissertation on James Hogg, having no idea that he's related to her. So then that was the first uncanny thing. And so then when I was in Scotland, after I had started to write, I was out of, randomly, I was asked by Methuen, which is now Routledge, British Press, to write a book for their series on women authors. And I could choose either Atwood or Monroe. And I had already published a bit on Atwood, and there were a lot of people publishing about her, so I decided I'll choose Monroe,

because she's the bigger challenge, I thought. And so that's what I did. And then when I was in Scotland for a Hogg conference, somebody said, well, you're not going to work on Hogg anymore, what are you working on? And I said, Alice Monroe. Munro and they said oh she's related to James Hogg and I said no you're kidding me so that was the first uncanny connection when I came back I was working on the book and finally got up my courage to write her a letter and said you know can this be true and I got and I sent her also very very that I can't marvel at my temerity I sent her a copy of an essay I'd written called Through the Mennonite Looking Glass,

which was my first piece ever writing about being a Mennonite. And so she responded, everybody will understand, she responded generously to, she does, to young writers. Handwritten? Oh yes, my first handwritten letter in which she said, yes, it is true that she's related to James Hogg.

And then a wonderful PS, and I must have apologized for the writing, how I had written that piece. And she said, no, that's right for that material. She's so generous to other writers. So that was my uncanny connection. And it kept getting uncanny. Then when my book was almost, I was towards the last of it, and I had gotten permission to have a painting by Mary Pratt called Wedding Dress on the cover of my book. I'd gone to Marigold Dow Gallery and got that. And then suddenly I got a phone call from Douglas Gibson and said, I need to tell you a story. I'm coming to visit you on behalf of Alice Munro.

And he came and he said that Alice Munro had chosen that same painting for the cover of Friend of My Youth. And so he was there on her behalf to ask if I would relinquish my right to it so that she could use it and in exchange I could tell the story. So there have been other uncanny episodes like that.

And I assume you did. Yes, I did. Oh yeah, that's what's on the cover of the book. Yeah, good stuff. How about you? Well, Steve, I was a student also when I became aware of Alice Munro. And it was 1972. I was doing a master's degree in English at York University. And Lives of Girls and Women had been published the year before and I have to tell you after being a sort of honours English student in Edmonton all those years and searching desperately through the canon for women's names was Evelyn Waugh possibly a woman how about Rainer Maria Wilke you know so there she was and my thesis supervisor my paper

supervisor was a woman called Clara Thomas and she said you know this thing about Canadian women writers is becoming a real thing we can now talk about it This is a country that has produced and is producing a large number of women writers. And Alice was, to me, a leading edge of that. And what it meant to me was, hey, we can write about these things that are our experiences, because we are in a special category as being women and having been girls. We don't get quite the same space as everyone else. And also, she lived here. She made it possible.

We didn't really have a big generation at that point of writers living in this country, writing about life in this country. Mm-hmm. in this country writing about life in this country.